authority gradient experiences, please ...

[goaround7]

Hi,

Doing research for CRM type presentation on authority gradient issues in flight training eg.

1) rich guy/gal buys own aircraft and undermines instructor authority;

2) training your boss;

3) cross training a very experienced pilot eg. fixed wing guy to helicopter or vice versa;

4) very rich young kid who tries to do what they like, especially solo

Anyone help me out with some examples/problems/solutions. Would particularly appreciate rotor wing but fixed wing very welcome too.

Thanks !

[Tubbs]

I haven't had my authority undermined but have flown with a student who was a very successful professional and clearly not used to being told what to do or given advice on how to improve. Would answer 'yeah yeah right right I knew that' whenever I made comments or suggestions. Eventually had to start asking her to explain why she knew it already and yet still did it the wrong way. Seemed to sort things out.

[goaround7]

Thanks Tubbs,

Yes, met one of those too. A guy for whom 'toughness' was very important in his work environment. Found it impossible to admit he didn't know something/couldn't do anything. Also owned the aircraft and wanted all his training done 'en route'.

Instructor walked away in the end. Not sure where he is now (the student) but probably flying with no licence...

[FlyingForFun]

Recently starting training someone for his PPL(A). He'd been instructing in TMGs for several years, and had far more instructing hours than I had total hours. Despite this, he is one of the most receptive students I've got, and a real pleasure to fly with. Only problem is that he's developed a small tendency to cancel at short notice.... but that's not a cockpit problem.

FFF
--------------

[Speed Twelve]

'Rich businessman' types can be a nightmare. I've had one. Definately not used to being criticised or told what to do. Mine tried to fit a ppl into an already hectic lifestyle and invariably cancelled with about 10 minutes notice or just plain didn't turn up. His motivation for flying seemed to be purely as a lifestyle accessory to be flashed around along with his Bentley. He couldn't be ar$ed with such tedium as preparation, study, planning, checks etc. There was no feedback from him in briefings other than the occasional bored/frustrated look at his watch every 2 minutes. The crunch came when we reached nav; he considered any planning or application of navigation technique to be pointless when he could just 'look out of the window to see where he was flying to', and continually asked to change the nav route to include flying past his mate's/bird's house.

How did I deal with things? A frank chat that if he wanted to progress towards a licence seriously then some application was required. If not, then he would be paying £100+ per hour for accompanied pleasure flights with no training progression or goal in sight. Never saw him again...

An instructor mate taught another 'rich bloke' to fly. The guy was utterly terrified of stalling, and offered my mate a considerably sum of money to skip the stalling exercises and continue onto circuits! Mate refused the money and told the guy it was correct syllabus or nothing.

The bottom line is that although these situations can be awkward, the first priority of a flying instructor is flight safety. Ultimately, if that means turning round to someone and saying 'sorry mate, you're really not cut out for this, I'd advise you to reconsider doing any further flying' then you're doing everyone a favour, most of all the student, in the long term. I've seen more than one PPL described as an accident waiting to happen who has eventually piled into a mountainside in cloud and died of deceleration sickness.

As far as younger students are concerned, bearing in mind that people can pitch-up at the age of 14 and begin powered flying training, I have had problems with some teenagers being too immature to accept constructive criticism. Some also have difficulty accepting the magnitude of the responsibility of being in control of an aeroplane(put simply, they don't fully appreciate that if they make a complete bollox of it it's 'goodnight vienna' and burning wreckage.) Having said that, I've seen some naturally gifted students solo at age 16 in complete confidence with an excellent mindset.

I recently did my taildragger conversion as a 2000 hrs+ instructor, and was taught by a guy who had only just passed his instructor course but had been in Tiger Moths all his life as a PPL. It was quite bizarre, in that I considered myself very much the raw student again, hoping that he could rescue the aeroplane if I cocked it up, while he sat in the back wondering if his instructional technique was up to scratch thinking that I was critiqueing him! (I was flying a Chipmunk on a tarmac runway in a crosswind). We survived, as did the aeroplane, and he did a good job. (I was determined not to be presumptious about how quickly I would pick it up, and, yes, it was still far more difficult than I thought it would be!).

Most experienced ppl/professional pilots I have done conversions or check trips with have been thoroughly professional in their attitude, particularly the multi-engine/multi-crew guys who have been away from Cessnas and Pipers for a while and have approached the task with a suitable amount of caution. Even the ex-Concorde man being checked-out in a C152 by a mate of mine who insisted the whole flight be done multi-crew! "Err, the gear's already down. It's bolted there..."

ST

[goaround7]

Thanks guys,

perfect stuff. The 'lifestyle' PPL is something I think I'll highlight. I can think of several but my favourite is the one who did his PPL with me and other professional pilots, then went and bought a Baron and turned himself upside in IF with his wife on board. Luckily he got away with it but all confidence evaporated.

Convinced himself that a single engine aircraft was what was needed and bought a Bonanza. Then would only fly with one of a select group of pilots, including me before I was even rated on the aircraft. Then went on to Senecas and began to cancel flights due to nerves, eventually aborting a take off for no apparent reason except sweating like a pig from stress.

Had a quadruple heart by pass shortly after that (seriously !). Should never have got a licence but the flying school just kept taking his money...

[wobblyprop]

Experience of young pilot, whose parents have brought him all the gear and he has no idea.

That's a little unfair, though.

He still hasn't grasped the concept of "I have control", "you have control"

Regardless of how many times I tell him to keep his gruby little mits of the controls when mine are on there; there they are, hovering, waiting, itching to take over.

When I've demonstrated landings he's been gazing out of his side window.

The crunch came when he said "I think I'm nearly ready to go solo".

So I had to tell him what was wrong with his circuits (height keeping, speed, directional control on the runway). I think the message has sunk in.

[oldbeefer]

Few years ago, teaching my Boss, Bucaneer pilot, to fly Gazelle. We were doing running landings following hydraulic failure. I very nearly got caught out when he tried to flare in the final stages. Just caught it before the tail hit the ground. He had been doing very well up to then, and assumed he could cope with most eventualities. Easy trap to fall into.

[goaround7]

More useful stuff, guys, thanks.

The last two posts underline how experienced students sometimes mess with our assessment of their flying. On the one hand, due to their overconfidence in their abilities; on the other, our overconfidence in their ability.

We had a 'nightmare' student in our neck of the woods last year. He was passed from instuctor to instructor. Took everything way too seriously and wouldn't fly solo because, although more than competent, he was such a perfectionist that if the skids moved an inch left or right on lift off, he'd abort, shut down and come back, saying he wasn't ready...

More please !

[Speed Twelve]

Agree, it's easy to be lulled into a false sense of security and let your guard down when flying with someone good/experienced.

I have to consciously remind myself to try and look at everything from the point of view of a 10 hour student when I am instructing ab-initio, having been caught out on a few occasions by assuming a student has learned/experienced something that they haven't. Was teaching circuits to a low hours stude on a fairly short runway one day. The guy lands long for a touch and go, applies power, and rolls with enough distance remaining to get airborne again, but without too much margin. Vr comes and goes, the end of the runway gets bigger in the windscreen, I call 'rotate'. Nothing. Pause. 'ROTATE'. Nothing. 'I have control', get airborne just as the far-end numbers disappear under the wheels. Climbing out I ask the guy why he didn't get airborne when I prompted him. Blank look from student: "What does 'rotate' mean?" he asks. Fair point. An expression we use every day, but one unfamiliar to a bloke with 6 hours flying experience who'd only been in aviation for a couple of months. My fault. 'I learned about flying from that' :8

ST

[goaround7]

Thanks Speed 12 - caught me as well. As I was imagining your situation I thought he'd frozen or lost comms. Didn't occur to me the he didn't have the vocab.

It hits home sometimes when you are talking shop and someone is not a pilot. Then you have to keep backtracking, thinking about whether the words make sense in normal conversation and then interpret for the non aviator. Worse, when they know some of it but not all !

Also, find dangerous discrepancies between different pilot backgrounds: ex-mil or not; northern or southern hemishpere; JAR/ICAO/FAA.

[BigEndBob]

You should never let your guard down. I dare say that a few good instructors may have been killed by having overconfidence in there student or pilot being checked out.

I was given the task to sit with a new instructor some years ago. He needed to get 5 hours on type, was short of 2, so was good opportunity for him to get to know the local area. Seemed quite confident and i made the mistake that i could just relax and enjoy the flight.

First landing on roundout the world disappeared and we were heading for a stall. I just sat there waiting for the go around.
Which didn't happen. I grabbed the controls and applied full power. I was shocked that such an experienced pilot could freeze at the controls.

....and seen the result of two very experienced instructors total a twin between them.

[justanotherflyer]

Rich guy buys a very expensive complex single having gained licence on simple trainer. Comes to us for differences training. "I'm already flying the new one with a friend, wink, wink, just want to get the sign off from yourselves", he sees fit to mention.

Not a good start.

I give him a thorough briefing on the specifics of our own model, quite different from his, and on the principles of prop/gear management. He is noticibly impatient during the breifing (knows all that already...) , takes an "important" call on his mobile, etc.

Eventually we go flying. I tell him for the first take off to follow through, I will be in control. He makes an exasperated sound. On the takeoff run at about 10 kts below recommended speed he suddenly hauls the wheel rearwards. Stall warner blaring the aircraft lumbers a few feet into the air and mushes along in ground effect. Wing drops. I shout I have control and we get airborne. He is virtually gibbering at this stage. For the rest of the lesson he is meekly compliant, and in the debrief when I ask him what the f*** he was doing he says oh, well that is the speed on my own aircraft.

I make it clear I don't want to fly with him again and we never see him again.

[Sleeve Wing]

Here's one for you, goaround7.

747 skipper, due to retire in a few months, had bought into a Chippie group and been flying with some of the other members. Hadn't flown a tail-dragger since he was a cadet.
Said he wanted to do an LPC/SPA Check with me so that he could solo.

OK, I thought, as he told me what he wanted the test to consist of, we'll also include spinning as well as the PFL, stalling etc.

"Don't need to do that ", he said. " Did a couple with one of the blokes yesterday !"

" Never mind " said I, " Hear you've been doing some aeros. as well. So we'll just check it out !" Begrudging acceptance.

Anyway, suffice it to say I noticed that the idling RPM during the power check was a little low but acceptable.

Yep, you've already guessed. When we came to the spinning, I asked for a spin to the left...........and obviously the engine stopped !

Flustered mutterings from the front cockpit about diving the aeroplane to restart.........so I said OK.
Then he realised he was getting towards Vne and the trees were getting
bigger. "What are you going to do now ?"

" You'd better take it " he said.

" OK"."How about we just make the Starter Master Switch, check the prop isn't rotating and push the Start Button !"

Great friends now- and he has flown with me a few more times since - mainly Aeros.!!!
And he knows now why Tiger Moths have wooden props !

Rgds, Sleeve.
:ok:

[Flying Wigster]

Had one rich guy who fits your profile but the odd thing was although on the ground he was very domineering and confident, in the air he had very little confidence. With attempting to deal with him on the ground I just didn't let him get away with it, I couldn't knock him down a peg or two though, because of his lack of confidence in the air.

With teaching more experienced pilots from airlines I have generally not had many problems, they're usually very happy to be taught by someone less experienced than them in total hours, however, I did have a problem 747 Captain when I was first starting out, he was new to the club so needed a checkout and was refusing. I failed to convince him otherwise partly because he recognised my inexperience and realised he could dominate me, I ended up having to get the CFI to convince him, but even then the CFI had to do the checkout.

[turbantime]

Yep, have another one of those at my school. This bloke will not talk to anyone under the age of 30 as he considers them too young....that includes reception staff!!

Had a situation where his instructor was unavailable to fly with him and got booked in with me. On ringing him he promptly cancelled and re-booked another time. The icing on the cake was when he was admiring the kingair in our hangar and asked his instructor whether he's flown them, the instructor turned around, pointed at me and said "nope, but he does."