LTN Arrivals

[EGGW]

Coming in to LTN the other night, told no delays, and we were expecting 08 to land. No right base or short cuts available. Ended up flying around the countryside of Cambridgeshire, Herts, Beds and Bucks.... We used nearly a metric ton more fuel,15 minutes extra flight time etc.. Found out through all this that we were No.1 at all times <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="rolleyes.gif" /> . .Is it just me but i find the whole procedure for 08 arrivals at LTN very frustrating, costly, time consuming etc,etc,etc.. I know you chap and chapesses, at LATCC do a great job trying to get us a right base when you can, but is there anything being done to improve the situation?? Like tactical use of the old arrival via Hazel, which is still a published arrival for example <img src="http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/smilie/jpshakehead.gif" alt="" />

[Over+Out]

The route via Hazel is for low performance aircraft cruising FL170 or below. The normal route for jets is over the top of LL at FL180 and on to Lorel via BPK (sorry, can't remember the STAR No.)If we can and it is quiet we try to turn you for a right base or up towards WCO. As it becomes busier the chances of this happening reduce. I believe the routes were seen and approved by airlines operating at GW before the new Lorel routes came into being. Come and have a look and see how complicated it can get.

[EGGW]

Have been on a LATCC visit last July and at peak times understand the reasons. But my point is the absolute waste of fuel and time etc.. that the current arrangements via Lorel give us.. .I was the ONLY aircraft talking to LTN approach for 15 minutes whilst getting the grand tour. . .I think my company only grudgingly accepted the changes BTW. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" />

[Buster the Bear]

Close Heathrow and arrive direct!. .. .Far less outbound delays now though 'swings and roundabouts' I guess?. .. .The London TMA creaks when it is busy, too many really giant airports far too close to each other.

[Standard Speeds]

EGGW,. .. .Just a couple of points.... .1. What time (approx) were you coming in? If by night you mean sometime after 2230 then I can't see why you had the cook's tour either.. .2. As a TC Area controller who works said airspace we sometimes bust a gut to get you guys and gals down to FL60 via WCO or even 5k'at HEN for 08 and the thanks that we get from some is zilch. Trust me, it makes you think twice before doing it again!. .. .Assuming, however, that you are one that always thanks us for giving you this shortcut then on to point 3:. .. .The co-ordination involved in getting you down is such that it involves TC Capital (the people who normally work you from the south coast(ish) to LL/BPK, TC South (Whose a/space you will descend into in order to get your height off), TCNE (the people you would have worked on the STAR after Capital) and TCNW Deps - the person who ends up with all of the work fighting to get you down beneath the BNN hold, avoiding every man and his dog in that corner of the TMA. Not always easy to do, but personally I think whenever possible we try and cut your routeings this way.. .. .A few final comments would be:. .There is always the BPK 270R to take you downwind right for 08 which can be very effective, but again requires you to cross control, wind up the VS and open the doors to get the height off. Similarly on 26, the BPK 010R works well for a left base, but again you need to "plummet" a little.. .. .Whilst the workload can be high, some people might not reduce your routeing for many reasons, not least having been exceptionally busy proir to you turning up, or about to be busy. Just because you were the only a/c on 129.55 doesn't mean that the rest of the TMA wasn't going bananas!. .. .Very few of us (in my humble opinion) will let you sail on the STAR merrily if we can find a (safe) way to get you a short cut. Would be nice to be appreciated when doing it 'though!. .. .Some might say that some of us grudingly accepted the changes BTW! Mind you, we are, allegedly, resistant to change and obstinate people.. .. .Hope this helps a little...!. .Speak soon!

[EGGW]

It was about 21.30 on Friday.. .. .I have visited LATCC recently and saw the Lorel arrival played out by you guys and girls. Great day out as well!! . .I can see the situation is rather complicated for you, as the way the airspace is divided up makes any shortening of the routings complex. . .I am one of the guys who say a BIG thankyou when getting the routings, so listen out for me <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="smile.gif" /> . .. .I hope after this thread you'll appreciate all the issues for us, and we your side of the coin.Also i feel a lot better for having a whinge <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" />

[squeaker]

I was talking to an ATCO mate on Sunday (hello Bill), moaning about LTN arrivals, and he suggested I ask my questions on here. Imagine my surprise to find someone beat me to it! EGGW I think you were about 30mins behind me on Friday, I'm glad I wasn't being singled out.. .Before I whinge, I should point out that I really understand there is a reason for it, I'd just like to know what changed and why?. .My question is much the same as EGGW. When 08 is in use, coming up through BARLU, I was expecting a Lorel 1B , WOD, WCO , right base. What we got was MID, BPK, vectors toward BKY, north of the field, downwind heading , back through the overhead, South of the field , downwind heading again, eventually 10 mile final (no problem with that) and in on 08. Similar extra time and burn to EGGW.. .What I'm curious to know is, what changed? We always used to route in that way from the South, even with 26 in use "leave BNN heading 070/080, lefthand downwind for 26" ah, those were the days!. .Since Essex radar came into being, and the arrival via VATON, I've seen more of Cambridgeshire than I thought existed. I really thought the VATON arrival made sense, take us the one way in that doesn't get in the way of LHR arrivals/departures, right over the top of it! To start with all was sweetness and light, VATON , BPK, left base for 26. Couldn't be better. But now we always go at least as far as BKY, get kept high, then get a dirty dive in from the North. Is it some kind of co-ordination problem?. .Believe it or not, we overpaid lazy b@st@rds are just as keen to help you, as you are to help us, after all, its in our best interests! But I'd just like to know what I should be planning on for arrival into LTN nowadays. I know there is a published route, but I've been LTN based for 14 years and I've never been to LOREL yet! I was considering getting a batch of "I've been to LOREL" t-shirts printed, but realised I wouldn't get too many customers.. .Seriously, I know it sounds like a whinge, but I have the utmost confidence in you guys, I know you wouldn't keep us up there out of badness (unless its BMI eh Bill) but I'm curious as to what has changed at LTN since NATS took over.. .Donning my tin hat now, and a parting attempt at levity.... .. . Q: What is the difference between a pilot and a jet engine?. . A: The engine stops whining when the aeroplane arrives on stand.

[MacDoris]

Its not really a case of what happened at Luton just a case of the TMA being more crowded. Lorel arrivals were routed overhead Heathrow to make life better for the NW TMA, so when looking for a base off the park it all depends on traffic in the stacks you are routing between and the heathrow pattern, if there is a gap and we can use it we will, BUT you really have to be at altitudes by the park or you run into Stanstead outbound traffic. 08 is a similar pain because to peel you off downwind, you need to get under bovingdon. The only arrival that is straight forward (ish) is from the north but even now there are times it is just impossible. If northbounds arrive at a similar time to a number through Lorel there is not always room to sequence you, again its a case of we need you down for shortcuts to work. This probably sheds no light whatsoever on why you see so much of the countryside but there you go..

[Slippers]

In order to get you from FL190 around Goodwood to FL60 at WCO, please bear in mind that we have to get you down through:-. .Heathrow departures via SAM and CPT,. .Gatwick departures via KENET,. .Stansted departures via CPT,. .Luton departures via HEN, . .Southampton outbounds routing to the north,. .Heathrow arrivals running into OCK,. .Gatwick arrivals from the north running into MID,. .Anything that is at, or approaching, the BNN hold,. .and probably a couple of other things that I've forgotten to mention.. .And while doing that, we'd also have to fit you into the stream of any other Luton arrivals that may be coming at the same time and still look after all the other traffic we've got on the frequency as well.. .Now before 22:00 on a week day that's virtually impossible, after that and at weekends you've got more of a chance.

[Christopher James]

And it is only going to get worse!! . .. .The busier the airspace gets the more standard it has to be kept, otherwise the amount of co-ordination becomes disproportionate to the benefit. If Stansted is given another runway and the majority of London's further growth takes place there, then the shortcut will become nonexistent as the 'hole' will become permanently blocked.. .. .As has been said, there are too many large airports too close together. . .. .09L. . . . <small>[ 19 March 2002, 15:58: Message edited by: ZeroNine Left ]</small>

[TC_LTN]

I was one of the TC Luton controllers on Friday evening and I think everyone else has given the reasons why you can be number one for Luton and still get the standard arrival. I just wanted to re-iterate that the TMA girls and boys do try really hard to snatch traffic from the LOREL 2Q arrival and expedite it towards WCO @ FL60 or occasionally downwind right at Alt 5000 ft. During the afternoon I guess about six or seven inbounds on the LOREL 2Q star got a 'tactical' release but about 21:30 I seem to remember BNN being quite busy and it just didn't appear possible. Most of the TMA controllers never miss an opportunity to expedite Luton 08 arrivals and on TC Luton we try always to accept them and integrate with other traffic coming standard via the LOREL Gate. Just isn't always possible but we do try.

[ojay]

To the TMA controllers who facilitate expeditious arrivals into LTN just to say thanks for your help-I'm sure we all appreciate that the published procedures are inefficient and standard speeds if people seem ungrateful I certainly wish to rectify that here.Thanks and best regards from one of the orange brigade.

[EGGW]

A BIG thankyou to to the TC guys and gals when you can get us shortcuts into LTN, mucho appreciated. I'm the one who always says thankyou . .. .If any of you TC guys and gals fancy a Jolly on Spotty M, just contact me by e-mail, and i'll get it arranged <img src="http://www.smilies.nl/happy/xyxthumbs.gif" alt="" />

[pax anglia]

A year or two ago there was some suggestion that CAS to the north of the LTMA and Luton CTR/CTA would be extended and the base lowered in order to allow a continuous downwind leg to the North of the field before turning left for 08.I realise that sometimes "the wheels grind exceeding slow" but is there any likelihood of such changes being implemented in the near future?

[Red Spitfire Driver]

Left turn for 08 - that takes you into Dunstable Area and it appears that Gliders have priority, over EGGW 08 LH circuits. . .(Expect howls of protest from the gliding fraternity). .Cheers

[pax anglia]

Today's local rag (not a noted "Journal of Record" it should be said) has an article concerning a second attempt at revising inbound procedures,and presumably CAS,to the North of the LTMA and Luton CTR/CTA when LTN are on Easterlies.
The graphic accompanying the article is of the"Janet and John" variety but shows a downwind leg North of Leighton Buzzard with a base leg East of Aylesbury.If memory serves correctly,the initial plan was for the downwind stream to pass South of Leighton Buzzard but this was rejected for reasons not disclosed.
This report owes much to the SHOCK! HORROR! school of journalism.Can anyone point me in the direction of a more dispassionate and factual account of these proposals,please?