Phraseology?

[springbok449]

The other day a captain showed me a letter from NATS website stating that instead of saying FL two zero zero and three zero zero we now have to say FL two hundred and three hundred just as with FL one hundred, can anybody shed any light on this as I have not read anything about it anywhere, apparently the notice has only been issued to ATC controlers?!

[Bright-Ling]

Looking at the Manual of Air Traffic Services Part One (ALL ATC'ers Bible) it states quite clearly, in an ammended page dated 28.12.01:. .. ."When transmitting messages containing aircraft callsigns, flight levels, headings, wind direction and speed, pressure settings, frequencies, transponder codes and aircraft speeds, each digit shall be transmitted seperately. The only exception to this is FL100 wich will be transmitted as 'Flight Level Wun Hundred'.. .. .Me thinks that your man has been given duff info.. .. .Would love to see that letter or the reference to it on the website - I can't see anything.

[eyeinthesky]

Bright-ling: As usual the MATS is behind. There was an amendment on the EBS at NERC a couple of weeks back confirming that we can use: . .'WUN HUNDRED'. .'TWO HUNDRED'. .'TREE HUNDRED'. .'FOUR HUNDRED'. .and . .'SIX HUNDRED'. .to refer to flight levels, with the reminder not to use 'hundred' in reference to headings.. .. .The omission of 'FIFE HUNDRED' is strange. One might assume that it is because it is not a usable level being above RVSM airspace and the usable levels being 490 and 510, but the same is true of FL 600. Just one of those ill thought-out SIs that appear from time to time. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="rolleyes.gif" />

[hatsoff]

I think it was published in an AIC which nobody saw.. .All we got was a scrappy bit of paper at the managers desk.. .Not very professional!

[Bright-Ling]

Typical!!!. .. .You can tell I don't speak to aircraft up that high!!!!. .. .So is it JUST for LACC or for everyone (not many others get to say six hundred anyway!!!!!!) I assume it will be incorporated soon.. .. .Thanks for that info.... will wait with baited breath for my ammendment to the Part 1.. .. .What am I talking about..........we don't get ammendments anymore. Doh.. .. .B-L. .. .----------------------------

[niknak]

This says a lot about certain ATSU management, as you may be aware the Editor MATS part 1 sends out the details of all ammendments about a month before they are published, inviting comments.. .Naturally, the ammendments will be published regardless of comments, (the recent phraseology changes regarding "holding positions" etc being a case in point).. .For a change, this ammendment makes a lot of sense, it also shows how many atco's do not subscribe to the MATS part 1 and ammendment service, ( <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="mad.gif" /> largely due to the total incompetence of the CAA and their decision to stick by Westward Digital until they recently went into liquidation. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="mad.gif" /> )

[Erm OK probably]

I think this explains it.. .. .<a href="http://www.caa.co.uk/publications/docs/srg_atsin_8_phraseology_associated_with_clearances_invol" target="_blank">http://www.caa.co.uk/publications/docs/srg_atsin_8_phraseology_associated_with_clearances_invol</a> ving_fl_100_200.pdf]. .. .Edited because I can't make it a link.. . . . <small>[ 06 March 2002, 17:41: Message edited by: Erm OK probably ]</small>

[LXGB]

Thanks Erm,. .Knew I'd seen it somewhere.. .. .CAP413 (2002 Edition) says "When transmitting messages containing flight levels each digit shall be transmitted separately.However,in an endeavour to reduce ‘level busts ’ caused. .by the confusion between some levels (100/110,200/220 etc.),levels which are whole hundreds e.g.FL 100,200,300 shall be spoken as “Flight level (number)HUN DRED ”.The word hundred must not be used for headings.". .. .All good stuff, but still waiting for my units hard copy from Documedia. Probably get it by 2003.. .. .LXGB.. .. .PS - Yes I'm bored, and yes my secondary duty is Docs <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="confused.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="frown.gif" /> .

[springbok449]

Thanks for all those replies everyone, indeed on the document it stated that this procedure was introduced in order to reduce the risks of level busts.. .Regards, Bokkie449

[Bright-Ling]

Thanks to erm for that info....also thans to Springbok for asking the question (Sorry for the answer which, though not incorrect as per the book, was a bum steer!!). .. .Interestingly, management have been reported as wanted to surpress this site.. .. .BUT - this go's to show that despite all the whingeing, blabbing and bitching going on, the site is still very useful and I for one have learnt 'something'. (Even though I won't use it!). .. .Ironically, that 'something' should have come from management.. .. .We live in a topsy turvy world.

[Scott Voigt]

Great, let's hear it for standardization...

[gofor]

Brightling - Notso and others. Thought I'd mention that "Manual of Air Traffic Services Part One (ALL ATC'ers Bible)" Is no-ones Bilble unless UR in on a different planet or Island. I'd say whatever ICAO says is the one to go with as they ultimately are the Body to which most of us are contracted. (FAA do there own thing). I believe ICAO says "Hundreds for level's are good ie. FL100 FL200 etc!. .. .Go Springbokkie GO <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" />. . . . <small>[ 07 March 2002, 09:01: Message edited by: gofor ]</small>

[Spodman]

Excerpts from ICAO Annexe 10. .. .5.2.1.4.1.1 All numbers, except as prescribed in 5.2.1.4.1.2, shall be transmitted by pronouncing each digit separately.. .. .flight levels transmitted as. .FL 180 flight level one eight zero. .FL 200 flight level two zero zero. .. .5.2.1.4.1.2 All numbers used in the transmission of altitude, cloud height, visibility and runway visual range (RVR) information, which contain whole hundreds and whole thousands, shall be transmitted by pronouncing each digit in the number of hundreds or thousands followed by the word HUNDRED or THOUSAND as appropriate.. .. .Despite all that I rather like the idea of saying "flight level two hundred". I don't though, coz I'm not quite sure what an foreign flight might do... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="confused.gif" />

[Bright-Ling]

Gofor, maybe I should have said that it is the UK ATC'ers bible. (including non-NATS controllers). .. .Isn't the country's own ATC "book" meant to include the relevant and accepted part of the ICAO procedures?. .. .Doesen't RSA have a similar doc then??. .. .There is a world outside of yr country you know - and I am on an Island!!

[TrafficTraffic]

Sorry I must have missed something here, does this mean that the UK gives level instructions different to the rest of the world now? . .. .Can the ICAO document be overidden by the UK document (the link didnt work!)?

[Warped Factor]

Traffic,. .. .You've been a bit quiet recently, where've you been?. .. .From the MATS PT 1 Appendix E (Phraseology). .. . </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">The phraseology in this appendix is based on the standards and recommended practices. .contained in ICAO Annex 10, Volume 2, and ICAO PANS–ATM, Document 4444 to ensure, as. .far as possible, reliable and unambiguous communication between air and ground stations. .regardless of the native tongue of the users. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">The following Pt 1 Amendment can be downloaded in .pdf format, it seems to include a complete copy of Appendix E. So if you want to see what phraseology we have to use, it's all there..... .. . <a href="http://www.caa.co.uk/publications/docs/cap493_mats_pt1_am52.pdf" target="_blank">Amendment 52</a> . .. . ATSIN 8 (http://www.caa.co.uk/publications/docs/srg_atsin_8_phraseology_associated_with_clearances_invol ving_fl_100_200.pdf) (FL200, 300, 400 etc etc). .. .The UBB Code doesn't seem to want to accept the above link to ATSIN 8, so you'll have to cut and paste or go<a href="http://www.caa.co.uk/publications/search.asp" target="_blank">here</a> and do a search for ATSIN 8. . .. .WF.. . . . <small>[ 07 March 2002, 22:47: Message edited by: Warped Factor ]</small>

[NorthernSky]

For the moment, ATSIN 8 is a UK difference, to take account of the fact that states outside the UK refuse to believe that level busts are a safety issue.. .. .ICAO phraseology is all very well, but it's ICAO who gave us different languages, the Streamline fatality at CDG being one consequence (RIP).. .. .ICAO also offer us 'Holding positions', an accident waiting to happen.. .. .There is no point standardising with that which is unsafe. At least, we should drop the desire to be standard ICAO, and should pursue the elimination of all that makes standard ICAO so risky, before re-joining the ICAO process.. .. .It's no joke - lives depend on this.

[romeowiz]

This is what our (german) "Manual of Operations for the Air Traffic Control Service" says:. .864.2: "All numbers except whole hundreds, whole thousands and combinations of thousands and whole hundreds shall be transmitted by pronouncing each figure separately.". .. .864.3: "Whole hundreds and whole thousands shall be transmitted by pronouncing each figure in the number of hundreds or thousands followed by the word HUNDRED or THOUSAND as appropiate.. .. .EXAMPLES:. .300 THREE HUNDRED. .4000 FOUR THOUSAND. .13600 ONE THREE THOUSAND SIX HUNDRED. .4300 FOURTHOUSAND THREE HUNDRED":. .. .That´s most probably ICAO practice, we Germans are normally great in following rules and regulations.. .Remark: we are obliged not to speak TH properly in numbers but use a T instead:Tree- Tousand for 3000, not the correct THreeTHousand. (Would rather sound like "ssree-ssousand" from the most of us). .. .Being hit by all the new RVSM levels I tend to use both pronunciations of numbers when using a "hundreds"-level, "descend Flight Level tree zero zero, tree-hundred".. .400 is common, 500 is really rare, 600 is standard for acft flying higher because Mode-C transponders shut with 600. Russian transponders don´t - we had one flying at FL610 and he showed it, american U2s or SR71s do not, they show you 600, no matter how high(er).

[Goldfish Watcher]

Standardisation??. .. .Western Europe - Flight levels in feet. .Eastern Europe - Flight levels in Metres. .. .UK - Pressure in millibars. .Europe - Pressure in Hecto Pascals. .USA - pressure in inches of mercury. .. .etc etc...... .. .No wonder the sky is a dangerous place

[1261]

Ain't millibars and hectopascals the same thing? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="smile.gif" />

[Bright-Ling]

Yep - 1mb is of course 1 hPa. .. .But I see GW's point!

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

Yet US pilots often read back a millibar setting in hectopascals! And when it's 1000mb why don't we say "QNH 1 bar"?

[2 sheds]

NorthernSky. .. .How did different languages contribute to the Streamline accident at CDG?. .. .I did suggest, through CHIRP, a procedure to avoid that type of accident, but SRG couldn't see the point - watch that space!

[eyeinthesky]

2 Sheds: Not addressed to me and I don't have the report to hand, but from what I remember, the MD80 was being addressed in French and the SSW crew were given a conditional line up without being aware that the MD80 had been cleared for take off. It was suggested that had ALL instructions been in English then increased situational awareness might have prevented the accident.