The Ultimate Twin - What do u think?!?!

[hsvrox]

Gidday,

Just a quick question, for a hyperthetical case, what is the ultimate twin with the following specs...

IFR P135 Ops approved
Relativly simple to operate
Not too expensive to run or buy
Resonably Large Aft Cabin area (Say 6 pax)
Single Pilot
Sexy Looking (Very Important)!!!

Cheers!!

[gaunty]

Citationjet.
Eclipse 500
Horizon ?
Premier
Adam thingy
etc etc.

or any of the ultralight jet/turboprop twins currently in development
I'm serious all others need not apply.:ok:

[Jet_A_Knight]

This is part of what Ted Smith originally had in mind 'all those years ago'.....

http://www.aerostarjet.com/images/im1_800x600.jpg

http://www.aerostarjet.com/

[OzExpat]

I see that gaunty is still on about Cessnas.
Poor fellow... not his fault really... he just can't help himself and doesn't know any better... :p

Hey mate... Beechcraft roooooles! :D

[Bevan666]

Is it just me or does that aerostar jet thingie look like a westwind?

Bevan..

[Torres]

OxExpat. You are ignoring your local statistics? In this one I'd agree with Gaunty.

The only Beech singles I recall operating commercially in PNG were two (?) Bonanzas operated by M acair ex Lae. Conversely, numerous, numerous Cessna 170, 180, 185, 190, 205, 210-5, 206, 207 operated very successfully in PNG over the past 48 years.

Granted, the Beech 55 Baron operated in PNG in some numbers, however in my humble opinion, it was vastly superior to the Cessna 310 for bush operations. I don't think the Beech 58 Baron every operated in PNG in any numbers.

Cessna dominated the Reg 211 operations - mostly 402s of various models. Not many Beech Queenairs operated in PNG - thank goodness.....

hsvrox, my suggestion? The Cessna 500/501 with Eagle conversion. Now at the right price, pair of reliable Pratt JT15D-1's, 350 kts cruise, good short field performance, sexy appearance and some great executive interiors available.

There's an Eagle mod Citation 500 currently listed for sale in the States - you'll have to Google it:

"TAN LEATHER AND BEIGE CARPET. 7 PASSENGER, CLUB CONFIGURATION W/5 SEATS, LH FWD DELUXE REFRESHMENT CENTER W/HEATED MAPCO, LH/RH EXECUTIVE TABLES, AFT PORTABLE SEATS, AFT FOLDING DOOR, AFT LAV W/PARTITION, REAR JUMPSEAT."

7,000 hours TTAF, good avionics suite and good engine times remaining. Looks like they start around US$1 mill with good engine hours.

[Luke SkyToddler]

Yeah but when they start delivering the Eclipse in about 18 months time, you'll pay less than $US1 million and you'll be getting a brand spanking, zero hours, 380 kt cruise, FL430, full EFIS, half-the-DOC-of-a-Beech-Baron, 21st century twin turbofan rocketship.

Stand by for the microjet revolution in the second half of this decade, and watch the residual values of all these battered old citation 1's and 500's and Aerostars go into total freefall. They won't be able to give the bloody things away.

[Howard Hughes]

380 kt cruise, FL430

Where's the fun in that?

The ultimate twin?

THE A-10 WARTHOG!!;)

Cheers, HH.

:ok:

[OzExpat]

Nurries Torrex. That was merely a continuation of a topic that has raged between gaunty and me (in the nicest possible way :} ), over the last few years. :D

[Ultralights]

have to agree there, the A10 warthog, AND the P38 Lightning!

[18-Wheeler]

The ultimate twin?

SR-71 on full burner.

[gaunty]

Torres

Unfortunately some of us like our friend OzExpat just weren't brought up proper.:p

A piece of history.
You might have forgotten about it but the reason that Queen Airs and Barons got such a head start in OZ over the Cessnas was by the efforts of another esteemed person and a real gentelman in the person of Finus Wandell.

I'd be amazed if you hadn't met him.

He turned up here waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay back as the US Beech Sales Manager to find out who and where was this new Baron going to in OZ.

Then, in US business we were in terms on that part of the map shown as "here there be monsters" so to speak.
Local twins then included Rapides, Ansons, Mile Gemini, Meta Sokol, Doves and sundry Cessna 310A.

Sees obvious calls home tells wife to pack up and moves here.

The rest is history. Last time I saw him was many years ago in the galley of a B727 enroute PER/SYD where we shared a coffee and notes.

I don't know how and where he is today but I hope he is kicking back and really enjoying life. One of the true legends in that business.

Them were the days:cool:

Bevan666

Exactly right because that is where the original certification was sold in the break up of Aerop Commander and has now morphed into the Astra family.:ok:

[OzExpat]

Yeah gaunty, I had a rough initial upbringing coz my intro to Beechcraft was something called a Musketeer! :eek: Not the best introduction I've ever had but matters vastly improved, all the way from the A36 to the B200.

And, when all said an done, would a Cessna (was almost going to say "comparable Cessna" but there's no such thing! :D ) have glided as well as the B200? :p

[rearwhelsteer888]

The C441 would have to be one,but my pick would be dash 10 pwered AC 690.I have not flown either but both the little brothers and the 690s rock apparently.
They hold down jets they climb so well, and block over 300.
Sounds good,any advances.
RWS888:E

[Howard Hughes]

rearwhelsteer888,

You've got me thinking, the G-1000 really is a nice bit of kit!!

Cheers, HH.

:ok:

[DeltaSix]

The Ultimate twin ?......... Dornier 228-212........ MTOW 6400

well, for me anyway.............
:( :(

[Towering Q]

The A model C337 Super Skymaster.....Awesome!!

With or without the cargo pod.:cool:

[Howard Hughes]

Hey Delta,

What's wrong with the 328 jet?

Cheers, HH.

:ok:

[DeltaSix]

Hi HH,


Ahhhh... how can I forget the nice 328 jet ?............. lovely aircraft

Not sure though if its a good choice for the Sydney to Lord Howe Island hop......... or maybe :O


have a good one guys...........

DeltaSix :D

[Chimbu chuckles]

Can't wait to see the accident stats on these 'cheap' new light jets...when Dr so and so etc start whizzing around at .80/FL430.

There are good reasons why airline pilots do lots of recurrent...didn't they used to call various BE58s and E90s/B200 Dr killers?

[DeltaSix]

G'day Chimbu,

Just straying away for a moment from the topic here......

I've noticed in your personal profile you operate the 767 machine.

Was just in a conversation with another hopeful piston driver like me ( or should I say hopeless ....:{ ) about what would happen if the IRU in the 767 malfunctioned......... do you get a problem called a "map shift" in the ND ?


Thanks

Let me know if I can throw more questions to your personal email.

DeltaSix :ok:

[Johhny Utah]

With all due respect, how is a light twinjet going to be any more difficult to operate than a piston twin....? I realise that the speeds are greater, but surely the reliability of the engines/avionics/etc would be much better in the light twinjet, as would the ergonomics etc of the design (i.e being designed in the nineties, when these things were considered, as opposed to being essentially a 60's design like most piston machines)

Surely assymetric situations would be easier to handle with two small turbofans engines closer to the fuselage rather than two piston engines spaced further away from the centreline of the aircraft? Not to mention the FADEC engine controls - or glass cockpits - the list goes on & on...:rolleyes:

[Chimbu chuckles]

I'm not comparing the mechanics of an engine failure at V1...certainly it's 'easier' in a jet with gauranteed performance...and it's also about the easiest thing we do in sim recurrent....there is a lot more to flying a jet.

It takes newly minted airline pilots (mostly very experienced multi/tuboprop pilots) 100's of hours to get to the point of feeling reasonably comfortable flying jet airliners when nothings going wrong....where will Doctor so and so get that training and experience?.

And don't tell me Flight Safety or whatever...everyone I know who has received training at those sort of places, and who has previous airline experience, comes away dismayed at the experience....a trip to these places every 6-12 mths is better than nothing...and that's about it...I would imagine that in the US at least Insurance companies will demand regular recurrent training to be covered...it will be mostly a box ticking excercise...can you really imagine an extremely wealthy/powerfull owner being failed? And even then the exercises will be canned type scenarios that can be flown by rote once you've done them 5 or 7 times the day before your licence ride. They will be all done on the autopilot, as has become the fashion.

Professional crewed is a different thing...but that seems not to be the market they are aimed at. SP in a jet, even a little one, is a lot to ask someone who doesn't do it for a living. Just look at all the warbird piston/jets, as well as high performance civvy aircraft that have been crashed over the years by people with checkbooks that outstrip their experience.

Delta 6 mapshift is usually conected to IRS drift where no updating has occurred, ie. via VOR/VOR or DME/DME fixes that correct the IRS position. Feel free to PM me if you want a more precise (read long winded) answer.

EDIT...and to answer the thread question. If money was no object and I wanted something I could fly SP I'd go for the C441...the best twin I've flown. If I wanted to employ another pilot then any of the Falcon twins...best jet I've ever flown. I didn't much like the Citation 560 Ultra....and the 767 is just too big to be considered:}

[Dances_With_Clouds]

THE ULTIMATE TWIN...

Cheap.

Easy to Fly single pilot.

Pt 135 approved.

GODDAM SEXY!


How can you possible go past the greatest machine ever invented...

PIPER AZTECS all the way.

On the eigth day God created Holdens.

On the nineth day he created Aztec's. God's gift to aviation. :ok:

[Pinky the pilot]

Still lean towards the DH Mosquito myself but my late Father logged a few hours in a Beaufighter and said that they were'nt too bad!

You only live twice. Once when
you're born. Once when
you've looked death in the face.

[tinpis]

http://fototime.com/%7BF9CF06C5-921B-44F9-BFCB-4BB5E0CEE11A%7D/picture.JPG


Tin has heard of the possible location of several of these brand new in crates located in a cave on an island off Singapore.














http://www.augk18.dsl.pipex.com/Smileys/bsflag.gif

[Gods Kitchen]

Cessna 404 Titan........

[Pinky the pilot]

Tinpis; If only it were true!!:{ :{ :{ :{

You only live twice. Once when
you're born. Once when
you've looked death in the face.

[criticalmass]

Beginning to think the B737-800 with winglets looks pretty neat. Don't think I'd like to actually own one, though (and I'm a little too old to be flying one now anyway).

[Towering Q]

Are you 38 too?:sad:

[gaunty]

Ozexpat

Well if they were still makin em and they stopped because they were just too damn good and predating Citation sales the C441 with -10s and Black Macs just has to be the go.

Even the std -8s were good for max weight TO direct to FL350 after moving the all the B200s outa the way and then sitting on 290KTAS, try that in your B200, or Perth Coolangatta at 290 KTAS only +20 and fuel o'head Cooly for Sydney w/holding reserves.:ok:
Theres nothing else that will go Per Syd either ways on one tank in around 6 hours.

Gliding, well a good mate of mine can tell you a really beaut story on that. That big 52 ft lam flow plank wing is just georgeous, just doesn't wanna come down. Dunno what the L/D is but it would eat the B200.

If I ever win the big Lotto, I am going to buy the lowest time prettiest C441 I can find, new -10s and Black Macs, refurb and park it next to the creampuff remanufactured C310R.

Why you never used them in PNG escapes me. :} but then if you learnt to fly on a Musketeer I spose you must have been scarred/scared for life.:{ :E

Eat your heart out and sincerest best wishes for Chrissy. :ok:

[Chimbu chuckles]

HMMM Coonquest :}

My favorite twin...and daughter (http://www.fototime.com/{A948D095-BCC7-469D-9D5E-1A551B5AEAEE}/picture.JPG)

It's panel (http://www.fototime.com/{1983F15B-0308-4E2E-B94A-F1971E6BA430}/picture.JPG)

Check out the ground speed (http://www.fototime.com/{37B0018F-6C91-4A5A-B2DD-447CC71489ED}/picture.JPG)

One of dem luverly -8s (http://www.fototime.com/{E0FFA601-C8AC-416A-B194-625911626C29}/picture.JPG)

Chuckles brings a/c back to YBAF... (http://www.fototime.com/{0F1A52FD-7E45-46C6-ACFD-29EA854AAA42}/picture.JPG)

But my all time favorite aircraft...and yes I know it's a twin

Falcon at Kota Kinabalu around sunrise (http://www.fototime.com/{25262ACA-CDDF-40E7-A535-4AC96AC1D5CA}/picture.JPG)

And yes she flew as good as she looks.

Her panel (http://www.fototime.com/{5FD75E58-8382-4B78-975B-7529FB9D5C27}/picture.JPG)

Dual Universal FMCs...and Chuck's right knee (http://www.fototime.com/{C6ABCBEA-6E47-4D79-BDE3-0B588B25B7EA}/picture.JPG)

[gaunty]

Chuckles

Brings tears to me eyes it does.

I'll deny I ever said it, but, given the money and the choice, Falcon would be my chioice of jet.

F900 anywhere in Oz and SE Asia out of an 1100m dirt strip, that's Rolls Royce aerodynamics.

It's really a twin with another engine for "just in case" over the water.:ok:

Frank H-J and his mate had one each, they kept at the local aero club. Every time you make a handsfree call you use his anti squeal/feedback technology, not bad for an ex DCA FS guy . I think he's gone to heaven.

Our mate Ozexpat has my deepest sympathy trapped as he is in a dinosaur or is it pterodactyl. :E :p :ouch: :cool:

[Ultralights]

My new favourite, (the plans are in the mail)!!!

Twin engine, Ulimited aerobatic rated, +9G -4G 150Kts cruise, Ceiling 16500ft
Turbine Powered!! 20Kts crosswind max

http://www.flight.cz/cricri/photos/cri_cri_10_gallery.jpg

http://www.flight.cz/cricri/photos/Crystalline.gif

or piston powered, still 120 Kts cruise!

single engine climb of 600Ft/min

Flies very well in turbulance, better than a C172 due to high wing loading

http://www.stroy.net/cri-cri/Cri-cri6.jpg

i cant think of a better way to get Twin Turbine time how many people can say they own their own twin turbine!

[Soulman]

Hmm... The ultimate twin?

Well, based purely on sex appeal - it's gotta be a Shorts 360.

Who could deny this (http://www.airliners.net/open.file/168688/M/) beautiful machine?

I mean c'mon - think of the chicks this thing would pull... :}


Cheers,

Soulman.

[Chimbu chuckles]

Whatsit look like when ya take it outa the packing box.....old i know..ok I'll get me hat:sad:

Gaunty the aerodynamics of the Falcon range of aircraft are just amazing...and built like brick outhouses...no turbulence limitation speed...well Vmo/Mmo but you know what I mean...super stiff in turbulence, not a waffle in her makeup anywhere. The Dassault people are very clever chaps. And they truly handle like fighters.

On post C check test flights I was required to take her beyond the .865 Mmo by some considerable margin that escapes me now. Then whip out the boards and record where she ended up...to check the rigging of the speed brakes. Never got more than a slight mach rumble even in a full power M.89ish dive from 41000 with loads of forward control column pressure to overcome the mach trim system...took my hands off and whipped out the speed brake......and the engineers readjusted the rigging when we got back:hmm:

In the high angle of attack/slow speed/stalling end of the spectrum her manners were impeccable....she shook like a dog passing a pineapple with some stupid nose up attitude and if, by judicous use of thrust, you managed to get the nose up above 20 degrees AoA the inboard leading edge devices retracted and lowered the nose no matter how hard you swung off the control column...from 10-12 degrees AoA up to 20 and all the way back the outboard leading edge devices were going in and out automagically to keep you right side up.

No stick shaker/pusher required and non installed....just pure aerodynamics.

Just a wonderfull aeroplane...the chap who endorsed me (PDG) heard in France when he was picking up a new 900 that the Dassault Test Pilots took the 900 past Mach 1.0 with no problems encountered.

What can you say about the 441...the pre eminate 400 series Cessna...and considerably better than the early 500 series Cessnas...even the C560 Ultra I flew for a little while was only 90kts faster and had less range and a smaller cabin with way less payload ability. No wonder Cessna stopped building Conquests..why they waited so long, compared to Beech/Piper before marketing a Pressurised Turboprop is anyones guess...but if they'd built them years earlier instead of near the end of the GA boom Beechcraft woulda sold lots less King Airs and Piper woulda sold non of their Cheyanes. Little doubt that Cessna's desire to build and sell Slowtations killed off the Conquest 2.

Why didn't we have them in PNG? Prolly the same reason King Airs were thin on the ground...Dennis couldn't get 19 paying bums, 1 pilot and a village girl trolley + 500kg of bags in one and send it clear across PNG....unlike a Bandit:uhoh: I guess they came along too late to be a C402 replacement when Dennis had already ordered bandits...gotta say I think he picked the right aeroplane almost everytime.

[gaunty]

why they waited so long, compared to Beech/Piper before marketing a Pressurised Turboprop is anyones guess..

They decided to go straight from the C421C to the Citation because the 421C was a better performer than the C90s and B100 and could give the B200 a push on block times, given that the average load in the US in these types was less than 3 POB and usually operated by the owner/pilot.

They went straight to the Citation for for FAR25 protection and superior peformance to the B200 at the same capital and operating costs.

The original concept drawings were basically a C421 with a pair of Pratts on the back.

The Citation production began in 1972, the first Conquest II (they renamed the PT6 powered C425 from Corsair to Conquest 1 for marketing purposes) did not come until 1978 and was meant to fill the hole for the owner single pilot market.
It was almost stillborn due to an accident (catastrophic in flight break up due empennage/elevator failure causing a bunt at cruise) very early in its introduction. They grounded them all until the answer could be found and delivered a new C421C to every owner for use until they could suss the problem.

It was thought that it was a bonding failure problem with the empennage. It turned out the operator had made an "adjustment" to increase the elevator trim range to compensate for running out of nose down trim. This was because they were carrying a few too many pax down the back (14 I think). The "adjustment" allowed the (original single screw) trimjack to wind itself off beyond the stop, instantaneous loss of trim = bunt = you know the drill.

The redesign added the twin screw Citation trimjack and a beef up of the empennage, adding weight to the whole assembly which turned a beatifully balanced design into one with a slight C of G problem with high pax loads. This could be simply fixed by relocating the O2 from the tail to the nose compartment.

This took some time and a fair bit of steam out of the potential of the aircraft and it took a fair while to recover the market, by the time it did the insane liability issues took over and not being FAR 25 the manufacturing liability insurances went through the roof.
The pain you get hitting your head against a brick wall, stops..........

Interestingly, the main problem we had in marketing the type was simply that operators would look at the disposable and decide that it would not go anywhere with any passengers.
They applied King Air 200 numbers for climb performance, altitude, FF and TAS of course in those terms you would be right.

But it wasn't a King Air 1930s airframe, it didn't have PT6s, had a high altitude wing and props went like stink and routinely starting cruise at levels and FFs King Air drivers only dreamt about. They simply would not believe the performance numbers.

But then I suppose if you've been riding a donkey forever, the concept of a thoroughbred horse is a bit hard to grasp. :)

It was a loooong battle, a lot of education and just about when we had it won they stopped production:{

The rest is history.

[Chimbu chuckles]

The original concept drawings were basically a C421 with a pair of Pratts on the back.

And the reality wasn't far from the concept. Plastic windows that would fog up on descent and a defog system not quite up to the task lest you melt said windows...landing was like pushing a shopping trolley off the sidewalk...pokey little cockpit...none EEC controlled engines...no APU...no fuel/oil heat exchange necesitating frist in the fuel...not my favorite twin.