New SAR Cabs

[Saint Evil]

I have heard from some colleagues a bit further south than me that the RAF(and I guess the RN) are going to join Bristows in the leasing of new cabs once the engineering goes contract.

Is this true and what are you guys likely to get? Will it be Merlin or go down the Super Puma route (ala Jigsaw).

It will be good to see you guys get some decent kit at long last. My memories of the Sea King are that it is a great Aircraft, just egtting too old and with a poor supply system to back it up.

[detgnome]

I have heard mention of NH90 from a couple of independent sources, but difficult to see how a leasing arrangement would work with the NH90 programme in its current ie military state. Another option is that 28 Sqn get rid of their Merlins and they get modified to some (probably poor) SAR role.

[Melchett01]

Another option is that 28 Sqn get rid of their Merlins and they get modified to some (probably poor) SAR role

I can't see that happening any time soon. If, as is widely expected, there is hurrumph hurrumph further restructuring, I wouldn't be too suprised to see 230 Sqn start drawing down in NI as part of the peace process out there. Given that to do so, and if drawing them down involves them being pensioned off rather than re-allocated, would only compound the already dodgy state of the battlefield helicopter fleet identified by the NAO. To then farm 28 Sqn off to SAR duties on top of any reduction in the Puma fleet would end probably cause a lot of arguing at senior levels as more pongos would have to walk to battle rather than getting a cab.

If I was a betting man, I would say that if anything, 28 Sqn's future is fairly secure as it is - as long as it can get all the gremlins sorted an work out their conops. Fewer Pumas on the books means increased likelyhood of Merlins deploying - as good as the Chinook is, there will be times when it is overkill and simply not suited to the requirements of the job.

Think you may have to look elsewhere to find your new SAR cabs. Who know, I wouldn't put it past this bunch of muppets to axe SAR totally as a military function in the UK and farm it off to Bristows or some other company, whilst developing a smaller CSAR fleet that can be taken off on ops - now that may become a 28 Sqn role, but I doubt they'll be buying up cans of yellow paint at Benson in the short term.

[ppf]

Correct me if I am wrong (which I most probably am!) but is it not worthwhile keeping SAR military as they have a bigger scope to rescue as civilian SAR units cannot fly in conditions the military can i.e. due to poor weather or cloud base or the use of NVGs?

ppf ;)

[ppf]

Jungly you might find the answer to And just how many of their call outs are for the military? here:

http://www.dasa.mod.uk/natstats/ukds/2004/chap5.html

PS I think they are worthwhile!

ppf :D

[WE Branch Fanatic]

According to what the guy told us during a quick visit to 771 back in March, they (and presumably other SAR units dotted around the coast) have roles other than SAR - ones which are probably best not discused here but can only be done by military assets...

[rivetjoint]

The ferrying of pies?

[Paul McKeksdown]

Hmmmm, lets think, ahh yes here it is!

Bristows conduct COASTGUARD search and rescue, that means that they can't go any further inland than is required to transfer patient/casualty to civvie support services. 5 miles seems to spring back to mind. Classic case in the Hebredies a while ago, said bristows cab was to transfer a patient to a military cab at Plockton. Military cab was re-tasked and the Bristows machine continued on to Glasgow. Kiddie saved, pilot sacked! Civvies don't like flying in mountains on dark ****ty nights. Even less than AEO like coming out of their comfy offices. (AEO's would NEVER fly, they know how its really been maintained!)

[Razor61]

During the first night of the Canadian Sub incident, a Wattisham based Sea King was told to transfer two divers from AAC Wattisham to RAF Lyneham.
While enroute, the Lee-on-Solent S-61N Coast Guard helo was also told to go to RAF Lyneham.
The Sea King landed, dropped off the Divers and returned home to Wattisham. The S-61N landed and picked up the divers and went enroute...

No idea if the divers were involved in the Rescue operation, or that the S-61N went enroute to Ballykelly or not though.

Razor

[Crashondeck]

Paul - keepyourkegsup

Nice rumour - utter rubbish though. Red and whites are regular visitors to Inverness and Glasgow. They are far more capable than we give them credit for.

COD

[jockspice]

Sell it? Then there will be even fewer second line flying jobs.:{

[Melchett01]

Sell it, its not core military tasking

Yeah right - try telling that to the QRA guys during the Cold War hoofing it up the North Sea in the dead of night in weather that would make Michael Fish wince. QRA may not be scrambled as often as they were back then, and there's certainly no air war going on in the UKADR that requires the services of the SAR fleet to rescue dozens of downed drivers, but would you really want to get rid of them??

It would be fairly short sighted to get rid of that capability as once it's gone, it's gone for good. It may be OK to farm it off to Bristows in the short term, but surely SAR is one of those areas that requires experience? Plus, I would have thought that a lot of the Coastguard drivers are ex mil SAR drivers anyway. If you get rid of the mil SAR function, eventually all the current SAR experience would dry up and wouldn't filter through to the civi side; then, in 20 years time when the current experience has gone, you'll be faced with a bunch of inexperienced drivers flying in conditions that would leave the rest of the RAF's drivers tucked up in the bar.

Is that what you want - a baby driver that's only just got his ticket out in a gale trying to find a life raft bobbing about in the North Sea with a 30kt crosswind running close to fuel minimums thinking bugger, we didn't do this in training last week?? I would have to say that anything that keeps crews alive by rescuing them and getting them back in the air again is a core military fuction - or do we now have so many aircrew that losing the odd one here and there doesn't really matter?? Hmmmm:confused:

Plus, should we ever see the light and develop our own proper CSAR capability, could you really see Bristows volunteering to dodge bullets and MANPADS out in theatre?

[John Eacott]

Maybe comparing apples with oranges, but the system down here is heavily civilianised, and has been for yonks. Civil SAR assetts are tasked by AusSar for offshore, and by local State Police for onshore tasks. There are no dedicated SAR units outside CHC's S76's on contract to the RAAF. Those generally called are EMS or Police machines with SAR capability. These guys are exceptionally professional, some NVG and auto hover capable, and have been involved in conditions that rival any to be found around the UK coastline, and many miles offshore.

The RAAF contracted Lloyds Helicopters, now CHC, to provide S76's for military SAR: IIRC, there are four + a spare, one each at Williamtown, East Sale, Pearce and Tindal. All are full auto hover, NVG and crewed for military call out requirements. The East Sale ("Chopper One") tends to be re tasked to follow the Roulettes around on displays.

I must stress that these operations are intensely professional, and comparable with the standards that you would expect from your UK military SAR units. In recent years two of the units in the SE of Oz have been recipients of International Awards, and deservedly so. The aspect of core military SAR being covered by contract civilian units was initially met with a fair degree of scepticism, which proved to be totally unwarranted: the contract was recently renewed for another long term, the security of which allows the operator to invest in upgrade equipment as and when needed.

[Paul McKeksdown]

Lovely wording 'utter rubbish' and 'rumour' tell that to the friend of mine who got sacked over the incident, he could give you a few words about it. The problem is the definitions and the insurance. Bristows and other helo companies require specific (and expensive) insurance for SAR inland, which I know by my own experience is a difficult and ****ty job as well as extra training. Gonna get that 'in-job' with a civvie firm? Doubt it!

The problem is that of costing, also that of the military generally being more prepared to 'have a go' in situations of extreme poor weather. Ask the guys flying the Bristows cabs and you'll find that most of them are ex-military anyway and happy not to tread on the military toes. How many people are we going to keep in the military if all we can offer them are back to back front line tours in some god forsaken banana republic that the USA wants to kick. Don't sell our 'home based' tasking off so quickly, the guys (and girls) doing the job do it extremely well and with the utmost professionalism and here is a thread wanting to sell it all off. Why?

[NR DROOP]

"I think you'll find its only 771 that do the other roles. The yellow Sea Queens are purely there for SAR and (if memory serves) >98% of all "shouts" (and not "shouts are rescues) are for the civpop"

What utter drivel !... Gannet Sar up in sunny scotland's primary role is nuclear accident response mmmm! quite important considering recent events. There is a large amount of junglie pilots up here who are gaining valuable experience in the mountains at night in horrendous conditions, skills they can take back to the jungly world. So when they are flying you into the the hills to recover your downbird they will bring these skills with them, and get you there safely (this holds true for the crabs as they cross pole also) The services have contracted out far to much to the civvy sector and making the whole of sar civvy is a V bad idea.
Cheap is not always the best option !:8

[Paul McKeksdown]

NR DROOP! I can only agree, after having a few years of fun up there before 771 took over I have to say it was some of the most diverse (and scary)flying ever! I somehow doubt that we'll ever see a Bristows aircraft hovering off the cliffs in Glen Coe in the middle of the night in a screaming snow storm! The flying experience gained in these conditions is excellent and prepares pilots for any other role. Search and rescue over land is a completely different ball game from coastal and sea rescue. Very few mountains and granite clouds out over the briney! (don't tell that to the Titanics navigator though ;-))

The military provides the 24 hour cover to both the military and the civilians, often risking it when the civilian units, due to equipment limitations, have to turn it down. Don't have the equipment, don't have the limitations has been one of the reasons why SAR has stayed in the military. We have the only trained personnel who live, work and fly with the aircraft shortcomings. Want to do something useful Jungly AEO, quit whining about having to allow aircraft to be used for SAR and start finding and bolting in the equipment to enable it to be flown better.

(pheww!)

(Remember! the light at the end of the tunnel could be an on-coming train!)

:sad:

[Juan Smore]

Paul McKeksdown: If the requirement to "hover off the cliffs in Glen Coe in the middle of the night in a screaming snow storm" (ie overland SAR) was written into the Bristow MCA contract then they would do it. Professionally.

[teeteringhead]

IIRC from when I was involved in SAR policy, one of the differences between civ and mil SAR was weather limits for training.

While civvy (including CG) SAR can (and do) fly in sh!te weather, they can only (or could - this may be out-of-date) only do so on jobs. Whereas military could train in weather below civvy limits. Net result was that - by regulation and through no fault of their own - civvys were less practiced in real doggo weather.

Maybe somebody more up to date than about 5 years ago could confirm/deny??

[Jobza Guddun]

If we had the money that we waste on SAR, we could get some really good stuff for the SH force, like a replacement for the Sea King and Puma, instead of running them on year after year.

But we wouldn't have it would we? It would be spent on the civvy contractor, or more likely we would be X million quid worse off. And the SH fleet would still be largely tired.

[NR DROOP]

Jungly AEO Get back in your box. You have got a replacement for the ageing Sea king, its the Merlin and we all know what a cost effective white elephant that is. I think we all agree we need to save money but you are barking up the wrong tree with your idea of getting rid of military SAR. How many AEO's to aircraft do we have in the Navy ?...... mmmmm now that would save some money !!! :ok:

[Fiesty]

Junglie AEO

Do you wear glasses?

If not, I suggest a visit to the opticians, because you are myopic beyond belief!

yours

in anticipation of further engineeringspeak drivel...

Fiesty

[Myra Leese]

The non-deployable SAR Force managed to deploy 2 Seakings with about a weeks notice to Cyprus when the rug was pulled early on the Wessex. The 2 month detachment then lasted nearer 5 by the time the Griffin entered service late with the civillian contract.
Many ex SAR pilots and rearcrew get posted to the SH force where they invariably do very well and generally have better CRM and handling skills than their green cousins-fact, I have done both!
Jungly I suggest you stop being so parochial and visit a yellow SAR unit where you will meet enthusiastic, talented and professional aviators who enjoy being in the military and woulnd't swap it for anything.

[NR DROOP]

You are very wordy about a subject you clearly know little about.

771 embark on the CVS to cover SAR for the stovies and on the Type 22/23s for the utility role - try and get bristows to do that ! It would be easier to contract out the engineering side.

The crabs deploy with their fast jets to provide SAR in exotic places.

As for our flying pay we are worth every penny, there is more to military flying than a few years at uni and learning how to sign the 700.

Military SAR is more important than you think - open your eyes.

So what is your beef ? did you girlfriend run off with a better paid SAR god :)

[KPax]

ARE bRISTOWS GOING TO TRAIN FOR 'CSAR', OR WILL THEY EXPECT US TO RUN TO OUR AMERICAN COUSINS EVERY TIME SOMETHING GOES WRONG

[Fiesty]

JunglyAEO

The Myopic comment may not be as flippant as it first appears (and it was me, not Deliverance).

The mob spends a pile of cash training aircrew. Not only does SAR develop captaincy in situations where REAL decisions have very real and immediate effects on individuals survival prospects but it happens week in week out, conflict or no conflict. This feeds excellent general captaincy skills and experience back to the front line. Additionally, the SAR specific skills will be available within deployed units so when the balloon goes up and the ships start sinking, a good number of aircrew will have a sound base of knowledge to ensure the job is done right.

On top of all that, those folk who have trod the corridor, back and forth between front line units at Yeovilton will testify to the retention incentive of second line tours.

In summary, the SAR force provides the primary SAR cover to military aircrew, also a good service to the Public (who after all pay for us at the end of the day), a fantastic training ground and a retention incentive for a substantial number of aircrew.

Perhaps, when you take these factors into account, the SAR Force it is not so expensive as you believe?

I look forward to hearing further of your informed words of wisdom...

Regards

Fiesty:ooh:

[NR DROOP]

Wise words.......

I think Jungly AEO has gone off to polish his spanner !
:{

[teeteringhead]

I think Jungly AEO has gone off to polish his spanner ! If he polishes it too much he'll need thicker glasses;)

[[email protected]]

Junglyaeo - the last SARforce commander had aspirations for deployability for the RAF SAR Sea Kings but it quickly became a non-starter (apart from the Cyprus det which used the OCU) because of the crap serviceability problems with the aging fleet. Get some modern helicopters in the job and deployability is a player but we struggle on a daily basis to maintain the integrity of the UK SAR cover.
Military SAR is worth keeping for its primary role (rescuing jet mates -I pulled one of your Sea Harrier pilots out of the Bristol Channel last year) and its massive contribution to the civilian world where, despite lots of poaching from Air Ambulance and the like, we keep on producing the goods so that people can go walking, climbing,sailing, diving and flying knowing that if it goes pear-shaped then there will always be someone to come and get them regardless of the weather. Could this be done by civvies? Yes of course but they would not get 20% of the training hours that we enjoy and those training hours allow us to operate safely in some unpleasant conditions, day or night.
If you get rid of us not only will you lose all of that capability but also deny the NHS the use of a large helicopter to transport critically ill patients to hospitals that can provide specialist treatment - none of the air ambulances are big enough to permit a doctor and 2 nurses to work on their casualty in flight.

[[email protected]]

Jungly - where do you think Mr Bristow will take the SAR pilots from that he needs to do UK SAR - oh yes the military, RN and RAF.
The lack of spares is an engineering issue, the IPT is run by engineers and consistently fails to deliver.
The engineering can be done significantly cheaper by civvy contractors - would it be as good? No but that is the argument you propose for sacking RAF SAR.
You don't need more front line Sea Kings, you need a modern, serviceable helicopter with reduced maintenance costs - but Merlin sure ain't it!
Don't confuse deployable SAR with CSAR - the latter is not a job for a yellow helicopter with a winch, it is a job for an SH machine with loads of guns and grunts in the back and some gunship topcover - the Sea King would be shi*e at it which is why the spams use MH53E.
We could train all pilots for 5 years to ensure they were absolutely top hole at everything before being allowed to go to the front line but engineers would be slagging us off for having an easy life and costing too much money.
Take the SAR role from Culdrose and Prestwick and you have a load of helos trying to justify their existence doing bugger all work, I think their MCT and sub roles are the secondary ones now.
However, you are correct that all SAR drivers are gods and easily worth treble what we are actually paid but that's what you get for working hard at school!

[Fiesty]

Jungly

You sound like the kind of chap who would contract out all military functions (Flying training, catering, engineering etc) apart from actual war fighting. Perhaps also cancelling all leave, forcing divorce on all serving personnel, preventing all friendships with non-serving personnel and ensuring maximum deployment of ALL Military personnel 364 1/4 days per year; all in the name of "front line first"? That should solve the gapping problem!

Alternatively, sack the entire armed forces and place them on the reserve list, then call them up in the event of a war. That should save the treasury a whole lot more cash.

Flippant again? Perhaps but my hypothesis is twofold:

1) Attempting to save military cash by axing capability is only likely to reduce the defence budget commensurate with the reduction in capability, not allow re-allocation of funds to boost another capability.

2) The British Military commands respect around the globe, mostly because of the calibre and expertise of our personnel. No matter how committed they are, everyone has a point at which they will call quits and depart to pastures new. On leaving they take with them skills and experience that cost the Taxpayer a lot of cash.

While I sympathise with the AEOs frustration at lack of front line support/resources (Quite fancy a go with an MH53, also know a few crewmen that fancy a go with the miniguns and .50 Cal), I still cannot understand his blinkered Pilot/SAR bashing point of view. Anyway, point made, take it or leave it as you see fit...

Regards

Fiesty

PS I don't believe that the NHS get Military SAR services free, perhaps someone better informed can add detail?

PPS Try Yoga, then you can be your own self-licking lollipop.

[Paul McKeksdown]

Don't let him bait you!!

If I remember rightly, and I think I do, he's playing with small helicopters now anyway and is probably afraid to go near the big ones again 'cause he's too short to reach the steps!!!

Hello Jungly AEO, still twisting the knife in the name of fun are we ;-))))))

From a fellow 819'er!

[Arctic Tern]

Gentlemen.
Some very interesting and emotive stuff here. As ever, there are 2 distinct factions when MilSAR is discussed: SH Boys who quite rightly point to the cushy number that SAR Boys have, and FJ mates who are typically very pleased to have SAR Boys looking-out for them (particularly those who have gone splash). As an ex-yellow cab SAR Boy myself, you would expect me to be biased, but the truth is I feel that the RAF SAR Force is due a shake-up. Indeed, the time has come to seriously consider working much closer with our counterparts at Bristows SAR and prepare the SAR Force for full civilianisation further down the line. I have heard all the crap about how Bristows SAR aren't as good as the RAF/RN, and all the associated arguements about weather minima. Truth is, a large percentage of Bristows SAR crews are ex-RAF/RN and are professionally trained and properly motivated. Indeed the very fact that the average Bristows SAR Flt is run with just 21 guys, whereas the RAF equivalent needs 40-50, leads me to suspect that MilSAR is too expensive and not particularly cost-effective. If you examine the real reason for maintaining MilSAR crews, the MOD will openly admit that it is a breeding ground for deployable SAR skills for the SH Force. Guys with SAR experience are supposed to take the very specialist skills into the SH world and cross-pollinate with their Chinook/Puma/Merlin/Mk4 mates. Realistically, how else is the SH Force going to get SAR experience?
What lies ahead? In my view, recent pressure to civilianise first line servicing, future movement of SAR Force HQ and the Sea King OCU to Valley, and the delay to a decision about SABR SAR leaves the door open for a civilian operator with a legacy fleet of aircraft to step into the gap. Don't dispair, this doesn't necessarily mean a reduction in standard.

(That should stir things up)

Arctic

[[email protected]]

Paul, you must be right - only a person with severe 'small man syndrome' would gob off so much and so aggressively about a subject he has so little knowledge of.

Feisty - the NHS do pay for patient transport and have to prove that it cannot be done any other way before the ARCC will task a SAR asset.

Arctic - I agree the SARforce has been too introspective in the past but Bristows balance sheet for SAR does not include the aquisition of the real estate for the base or accommodation and their main saving in personnel is on the engineering side, they will typically have 2-3 engineers on shift instead of 8 -10. There is also some question on how they declare their aircraft serviceable and is all down to how the contract is written.

Maybe we should get jungly back to a discussion on how many jungly Sea Kings it takes to do the job of one Chinook........

[Fiesty]

Crab

Thanks for the backup on the NHS issue.

Please don't get started on the Mk4 vs Chinook, or I may be forced to say something that supports AEO (and nobody wants that!) Suffice to say, it would be interesting to see the capability produced by a Jungly Chinook? Room for discussion in a different thread parhaps?

Regards

Fiesty:ok:

[detgnome]

Some very interesting points being raised here, my thoughts as an ex SAR mate with extensive experience of civvy engineer operations...:

1. AT is quite correct that the SAR force is due a big shake up - despite his somewhat confrontational manner, Jungly has a point that in this day and age non-deployable, non front-line assets have to justify their existence; however selling the entire ish off is not necessarily the best option.

2. The service provided by civvy SAR is of a very high standard indeed and there is no question over the professionalism or dedication of the crews involved. That said, any commercial contract will see any non essential costs cut and that means that training would be cut to the absolute minimum. Difficult to quantify the effect, but there exists the possibility (probability?) that some capability will be lost.

3. Despite Jungly's assurances, civvy engineering, in my experience, is of the highest standard. Invaraibly highly qualified and motivated they work until the job is done - at least as hard as any military engineering operation that I have experienced. End result - every time I walk for the cab, I go flying (well apart from today when it went u/s!, but I struggle to think of the last lost sortie I had...)

4. Skill crossover between SAR and SH is important for some of the more esoteric roles that the SHF perform.

5. End result - Will probably be civvy engineered COMR SAR helicopters, but the where the crews will come from, now that's another question altogether!

[Seak1ng]

Guys...

Although I think that Jungly does not know what he is talking about - it would seem that a couple of posts ago he answered his own question with the following statement.......


I'd like to polish my spanners, but most of them are being sold to civillian contractors, who come in, don't do a very good job and leave the uniformed guys to pick up the pieces.

Let's just leave him to calm down now and maybe he will clear off to another thread and start baiting people there.

[Melchett01]

feel that the RAF SAR Force is due a shake-up. Indeed, the time has come to seriously consider working much closer with our counterparts at Bristows SAR and prepare the SAR Force for full civilianisation further down the line. I have heard all the crap about how Bristows SAR aren't as good as the RAF/RN, and all the associated arguements about weather minima. Truth is, a large percentage of Bristows SAR crews are ex-RAF/RN and are professionally trained and properly motivated.

AT, I certainly do not disagree with you where you say that many of the civi-SAR fleet are ex-mil, and that they bring the associated skills with them when the cross over. What bothers me is what happens if we get rid of mil-SAR and the skills, training and more importantly experience of real edge of the seat flying that the civi fleet don't/can't always get (no fault of their own)? Surely we will eventually end up with a diluted civi-SAR capability because the brown-trouser, edge-of-the seat experience brought in by the mil types is no longer there - something I argued way back on page one of this thread.

If you really want to make SAR value for money, then I think that you need to reduce the gap between the SAR fleet and the SH fleet - both in terms of driver training and experience and equipement capability. If we moved over to a common platform eg Merlin, Blackhawk etc TYPE of ac (spotters, please note this is a hypothetical example, not to be taken as a "why not use this platfor"), then surely we could, overtime, cultivate a SAR force that could be used at home and abroad on ops.

Am I just missing a trick here, or would this not represent value for money and cross-polinate operational-getting-shot-at flying skills with home based crappy weather brown-trouser-flying skills?? Wouldn't this leave us with a fleet of ac that could be used when and where ever requried with crews that could fulfil both roles - SAR and CSAR? I'm sure that now would be a good time to start thinking about this - send a Flt over to the US to their CSAR school, get them trained up, send them to the sandpit and Bob's your uncle, you have the nucleus of a professionally trained CSAR outfit who can then be used to pass on their training AND experience to other crews.

Just a thought, now preparing to be told why we can't do it.
Melchett out.

[JTIDS]

Can't remember the exact figures, but seem to remember a paper being pushed round a year or two ago saying that the SAR force expected to lose around 50-60% of first tour SAR pilots to SH after the first tour, whilst the other 40% would stay to maintain a "core" of skill sets. Don't know to what extent this has been followed though...

[Bismark]

Interesting that all the discussion has been about the RAF SAR Force and transference of skills back into SH. The creators of SAR - the FAA - have always taken frontline crews and placed them in SAR for a respite tour. They (the FAA) have never seen the need for ab initio SAR trg and have acceptred that a reasonable second tourist has the skills reqd for SAR. Judging by the number of awards the dark blue types have won (most recently the Prince Philip SAR award - first by a female a/c captain? - the WAFUs are pretty good at it. Skills are transferrable from front-line sea flying/SH to SAR and vice versa. There are plenty of ex-RNers up flying with Bristows (and not all ex SAR people). All they need in any new SAR force is cockpit seats and a truly Joint HQ (now there's a novelty). Why does defence need an expensive ab initio SAR pipeline if one Service can do without it?

Ho hum back to the armchair of retirement!

[detgnome]

Bismark - methinks you will find that our illustrious friends in dark blue are in the process of sending some ab-initio rotary pilots to SAR. Ironically they have completed a chunk of their training under the auspices of the RAF!

[6Z3]

Which is yet another sign that the FAA is target-fixed on the very bottom of the pan, and has almost reached the bend.

[Bismark]

detgnome - a check with me salty friends would indicate that this was probably a one off using some aspirants on holdover due to delays in the Merlin pipeline. 6Z3 - target fixation has never been a problem for the WAFUs (except across a bar after the 5th pink gin). The bend in the pipe turned out to be nothing more than a kink.

Up periscope!:rolleyes:

[jockspice]

Our SAR cabs are Sea Kings and the only ones we have left in the Fleet apart from SAR are painted green or have a bag on the side. To constantly send pilots from those 2 frame types after one tour (where they have just learned how to fly a Sea King) to fly the SAR will deplete the baggers and junglies of their mid management expertise. We have no OCU for SAR and the RAF do, so why not use them instead of reinventing the wheel? Isn't that what jointery is for? It may also be easier to train people in a different role after they have already flown the SK for a couple of years.

Junglie Chinook? Now there's a thing....... we will get them the same time that the X Wings are procured.

[NRDK]

So much for talking about the new cabs!

Yes, harmonisation is obviously some way off with the backbiting and dissension in the ranks one reads here. For those of you who have given the ‘Civilian’ rescue crews some support….thanks. Before some of you became military SAR gods we were there in your shoes.

‘Pants-down’ Quote: “hovering off the cliffs in Glen Coe in the middle of the night in a screaming snow storm! The flying experience gained in these conditions is excellent and prepares pilots for any other role. Search and rescue over land is a completely different ball game from coastal and sea rescue. Very few mountains and granite clouds out over the briney!

Blah, blah….yes that role is a few thousand hours ago now and the mixed ex-military and civilian trained Bristow crews have enough experience gained over the last 20 years to continue training it’s own replacements now without drawing you away from Divisions.

BTDT and got the skid marks to prove it. SAR is the best flying platform you can get; sure you don’t want to see it go from the Service you fly for. MCT big deal, give the ‘pingles’ something to do it’s not that hard. We get as much training flight time as any SAR Squadron, perhaps more with our serviceability record. Before someone talks about fudged figures...bollocks. The Platform is not from 'wastelands' the average engineer has 30+ years experience, not to mention good support and IHUMS forecasting. Our crewmen trained your present ‘Senior’ Crewmen, so no problem with experience there either. Sure we have company training SOP’s that restrict us about as much as JSP318, but for SAR ops the CAA enable us to fly to a ‘justifiable’ unrestricted limit. If the ‘Client’, MCA or other want us to sit on goggles up a mountain all night and get the brown seat of pants wonderful military type flying you think we don't have or get then think again. You had better believe we would be given the equipment, training and authorisation to do it in an instant.

Hey, when harmonisation does eventually kick in due to economic pressure and we end up sitting together in the same well maintained (by civilians) aircraft doing the same job with the ‘civilian’ captain on his £75k+ salary, tell me you won’t be tempted to see the light? Long term leasing of land/hangarage and buildings is cheaper the having one 'Kinmouth' base. It’s not all about salutes, parades and mess dinners you know.

Now about these new cabs…………………..!

:}

[Tourist]

Seems to be a lot of B@llocks being talked here, how many of you have actually done SAR or CSAR or trap or JPR, and how many are just spouting.
Just a question.............

[Bismark]

NRDK

Of course it is the £75k+ salary that could price the civvies out of any competition.......

[Crabette]

Bismark

Actually it will be the extra 4 Cabs to keep one going airborne, plus the extra 20-30 support/maintenance that keeps those civvies like NRDK on £75k+!! This still saves the Government (Tax payers) XXX millions per year. I'm not counting Buildings, houses, ATC, POL, Drivers, cooks & bottle washers, Mess staff, Regiment guards, Punka walahs ................etc, etc
:ugh:

[NRDK]

Cheers Crabette

Looks like your basic economics of the Military cost to provide SAR has killed off all those previous forum contributions. The top brass know the true cost of mil SAR and are rightly concerned that the smoke and mirrors trick isn't working. It can be carried out just as effectively and at a huge tax payer saving with a greater 'Civilian' involvement. Personally I think a mixed Mil/Civ operation would serve all involved at the sharp end including the 'Casualty'.

:ok:

[Tuckunder]

Where do some of you boys get your opinionated ideas from? The likes of McKeksdown, Jungly, Melchet 01 et al should do some research before mouthing off on a public forum. I speak from a wide and varied background with 10 years fast jet and 10 years rotary wing before joining the "civvy wasters" you lot are so good at describing. There is no difference hovering over Glen Coe in a snow storm to hovering in the Cuillins in a similar snow storm. What do you boys think we do and where do you get this "no inland rescue" idea? Have you ever heard of Stornoway? Do Sumburgh call up Lossie when the job is a night search on mainland Shetland? Get real and recognise expertise when it is staring you in the face. I am proud to have been part of a military training system second to none and I would like to tone down your collective arrogance. Many Civvy trained SAR commanders and co-pilots within the MCA are as good or better than many of my ex peers in her majesty's employ. So if your only incentive on this forum to to be so self congratulatory at your own unquestionable abilities I feel sorry for you all. Personally I am far more interested in exchanges of ideas and expertise with our colleages flying the yellow cabs.

[Razor61]

Am i right in saying that CG Rescue 'MU' from Stornoway was involved in the initial search of the two F-15C's that had the accident on Ben MacDui in the Cairngorms, helping Lossie, Prestwick and Boulmer Yellow Cabs (before the MH-53's arrived).
If thats not inland, i don't know what is!

Razor

[serf]

i hear that a civvi company is looking for engineers with sea king experience and tenders have been invited for an engineering contract

[angelonawire]

sell the lot to the civvies, but for god sake this idea of harmonisation "sabre sar" .......that would be a right laugh, a couple of military chaps sat up front with cheese boards and pink gins, can you imagine the reaction they would get from a couple of hairy arsed civvy winch ops in the back doing the real graft, when they try dishing out orders... i think a swift smash in the mouth would be quite a surpise for the chaps, it would never work, civvies do it far better anyhoo

[Mikehegland]

Concur the selling of SAR to the strawberries....its become a millstone to the Military.

Lets concentrate on the things WE do well like killing people, not rescuing them !

[Twinact]

how many of you have actually done SAR or CSAR or trap or JPR, and how many are just spouting.

At long last someone has got their willy out to see who has the biggest!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
:ooh: