New SAR Cabs

[Saint Evil]

I have heard from some colleagues a bit further south than me that the RAF(and I guess the RN) are going to join Bristows in the leasing of new cabs once the engineering goes contract.

Is this true and what are you guys likely to get? Will it be Merlin or go down the Super Puma route (ala Jigsaw).

It will be good to see you guys get some decent kit at long last. My memories of the Sea King are that it is a great Aircraft, just egtting too old and with a poor supply system to back it up.

[detgnome]

I have heard mention of NH90 from a couple of independent sources, but difficult to see how a leasing arrangement would work with the NH90 programme in its current ie military state. Another option is that 28 Sqn get rid of their Merlins and they get modified to some (probably poor) SAR role.

[Melchett01]

Another option is that 28 Sqn get rid of their Merlins and they get modified to some (probably poor) SAR role

I can't see that happening any time soon. If, as is widely expected, there is hurrumph hurrumph further restructuring, I wouldn't be too suprised to see 230 Sqn start drawing down in NI as part of the peace process out there. Given that to do so, and if drawing them down involves them being pensioned off rather than re-allocated, would only compound the already dodgy state of the battlefield helicopter fleet identified by the NAO. To then farm 28 Sqn off to SAR duties on top of any reduction in the Puma fleet would end probably cause a lot of arguing at senior levels as more pongos would have to walk to battle rather than getting a cab.

If I was a betting man, I would say that if anything, 28 Sqn's future is fairly secure as it is - as long as it can get all the gremlins sorted an work out their conops. Fewer Pumas on the books means increased likelyhood of Merlins deploying - as good as the Chinook is, there will be times when it is overkill and simply not suited to the requirements of the job.

Think you may have to look elsewhere to find your new SAR cabs. Who know, I wouldn't put it past this bunch of muppets to axe SAR totally as a military function in the UK and farm it off to Bristows or some other company, whilst developing a smaller CSAR fleet that can be taken off on ops - now that may become a 28 Sqn role, but I doubt they'll be buying up cans of yellow paint at Benson in the short term.

[ppf]

Correct me if I am wrong (which I most probably am!) but is it not worthwhile keeping SAR military as they have a bigger scope to rescue as civilian SAR units cannot fly in conditions the military can i.e. due to poor weather or cloud base or the use of NVGs?

ppf

[ppf]

Jungly you might find the answer to

And just how many of their call outs are for the military?

here:

http://www.dasa.mod.uk/natstats/ukds/2004/chap5.html

PS I think they are worthwhile!

ppf

[WE Branch Fanatic]

According to what the guy told us during a quick visit to 771 back in March, they (and presumably other SAR units dotted around the coast) have roles other than SAR - ones which are probably best not discused here but can only be done by military assets...

[rivetjoint]

The ferrying of pies?

[Paul McKeksdown]

What can we do that Bristows can't

Hmmmm, lets think, ahh yes here it is!

Bristows conduct COASTGUARD search and rescue, that means that they can't go any further inland than is required to transfer patient/casualty to civvie support services. 5 miles seems to spring back to mind. Classic case in the Hebredies a while ago, said bristows cab was to transfer a patient to a military cab at Plockton. Military cab was re-tasked and the Bristows machine continued on to Glasgow. Kiddie saved, pilot sacked! Civvies don't like flying in mountains on dark ****ty nights. Even less than AEO like coming out of their comfy offices. (AEO's would NEVER fly, they know how its really been maintained!)

[Razor61]

During the first night of the Canadian Sub incident, a Wattisham based Sea King was told to transfer two divers from AAC Wattisham to RAF Lyneham.
While enroute, the Lee-on-Solent S-61N Coast Guard helo was also told to go to RAF Lyneham.
The Sea King landed, dropped off the Divers and returned home to Wattisham. The S-61N landed and picked up the divers and went enroute...

No idea if the divers were involved in the Rescue operation, or that the S-61N went enroute to Ballykelly or not though.

Razor

[Crashondeck]

Paul - keepyourkegsup

Nice rumour - utter rubbish though. Red and whites are regular visitors to Inverness and Glasgow. They are far more capable than we give them credit for.

COD

[jockspice]

Sell it? Then there will be even fewer second line flying jobs.

[Melchett01]

Sell it, its not core military tasking

Yeah right - try telling that to the QRA guys during the Cold War hoofing it up the North Sea in the dead of night in weather that would make Michael Fish wince. QRA may not be scrambled as often as they were back then, and there's certainly no air war going on in the UKADR that requires the services of the SAR fleet to rescue dozens of downed drivers, but would you really want to get rid of them??

It would be fairly short sighted to get rid of that capability as once it's gone, it's gone for good. It may be OK to farm it off to Bristows in the short term, but surely SAR is one of those areas that requires experience? Plus, I would have thought that a lot of the Coastguard drivers are ex mil SAR drivers anyway. If you get rid of the mil SAR function, eventually all the current SAR experience would dry up and wouldn't filter through to the civi side; then, in 20 years time when the current experience has gone, you'll be faced with a bunch of inexperienced drivers flying in conditions that would leave the rest of the RAF's drivers tucked up in the bar.

Is that what you want - a baby driver that's only just got his ticket out in a gale trying to find a life raft bobbing about in the North Sea with a 30kt crosswind running close to fuel minimums thinking bugger, we didn't do this in training last week?? I would have to say that anything that keeps crews alive by rescuing them and getting them back in the air again is a core military fuction - or do we now have so many aircrew that losing the odd one here and there doesn't really matter?? Hmmmm

Plus, should we ever see the light and develop our own proper CSAR capability, could you really see Bristows volunteering to dodge bullets and MANPADS out in theatre?

[John Eacott]

Maybe comparing apples with oranges, but the system down here is heavily civilianised, and has been for yonks. Civil SAR assetts are tasked by AusSar for offshore, and by local State Police for onshore tasks. There are no dedicated SAR units outside CHC's S76's on contract to the RAAF. Those generally called are EMS or Police machines with SAR capability. These guys are exceptionally professional, some NVG and auto hover capable, and have been involved in conditions that rival any to be found around the UK coastline, and many miles offshore.

The RAAF contracted Lloyds Helicopters, now CHC, to provide S76's for military SAR: IIRC, there are four + a spare, one each at Williamtown, East Sale, Pearce and Tindal. All are full auto hover, NVG and crewed for military call out requirements. The East Sale ("Chopper One") tends to be re tasked to follow the Roulettes around on displays.

I must stress that these operations are intensely professional, and comparable with the standards that you would expect from your UK military SAR units. In recent years two of the units in the SE of Oz have been recipients of International Awards, and deservedly so. The aspect of core military SAR being covered by contract civilian units was initially met with a fair degree of scepticism, which proved to be totally unwarranted: the contract was recently renewed for another long term, the security of which allows the operator to invest in upgrade equipment as and when needed.

[Paul McKeksdown]

Bristows SAR

Lovely wording 'utter rubbish' and 'rumour' tell that to the friend of mine who got sacked over the incident, he could give you a few words about it. The problem is the definitions and the insurance. Bristows and other helo companies require specific (and expensive) insurance for SAR inland, which I know by my own experience is a difficult and ****ty job as well as extra training. Gonna get that 'in-job' with a civvie firm? Doubt it!

The problem is that of costing, also that of the military generally being more prepared to 'have a go' in situations of extreme poor weather. Ask the guys flying the Bristows cabs and you'll find that most of them are ex-military anyway and happy not to tread on the military toes. How many people are we going to keep in the military if all we can offer them are back to back front line tours in some god forsaken banana republic that the USA wants to kick. Don't sell our 'home based' tasking off so quickly, the guys (and girls) doing the job do it extremely well and with the utmost professionalism and here is a thread wanting to sell it all off. Why?

[NR DROOP]

Jungly AEO

"I think you'll find its only 771 that do the other roles. The yellow Sea Queens are purely there for SAR and (if memory serves) >98% of all "shouts" (and not "shouts are rescues) are for the civpop"

What utter drivel !... Gannet Sar up in sunny scotland's primary role is nuclear accident response mmmm! quite important considering recent events. There is a large amount of junglie pilots up here who are gaining valuable experience in the mountains at night in horrendous conditions, skills they can take back to the jungly world. So when they are flying you into the the hills to recover your downbird they will bring these skills with them, and get you there safely (this holds true for the crabs as they cross pole also) The services have contracted out far to much to the civvy sector and making the whole of sar civvy is a V bad idea.
Cheap is not always the best option !

[Paul McKeksdown]

NR DROOP! I can only agree, after having a few years of fun up there before 771 took over I have to say it was some of the most diverse (and scary)flying ever! I somehow doubt that we'll ever see a Bristows aircraft hovering off the cliffs in Glen Coe in the middle of the night in a screaming snow storm! The flying experience gained in these conditions is excellent and prepares pilots for any other role. Search and rescue over land is a completely different ball game from coastal and sea rescue. Very few mountains and granite clouds out over the briney! (don't tell that to the Titanics navigator though ;-))

The military provides the 24 hour cover to both the military and the civilians, often risking it when the civilian units, due to equipment limitations, have to turn it down. Don't have the equipment, don't have the limitations has been one of the reasons why SAR has stayed in the military. We have the only trained personnel who live, work and fly with the aircraft shortcomings. Want to do something useful Jungly AEO, quit whining about having to allow aircraft to be used for SAR and start finding and bolting in the equipment to enable it to be flown better.

(pheww!)

(Remember! the light at the end of the tunnel could be an on-coming train!)

[Juan Smore]

Paul McKeksdown: If the requirement to "hover off the cliffs in Glen Coe in the middle of the night in a screaming snow storm" (ie overland SAR) was written into the Bristow MCA contract then they would do it. Professionally.

[teeteringhead]

IIRC from when I was involved in SAR policy, one of the differences between civ and mil SAR was weather limits for training.

While civvy (including CG) SAR can (and do) fly in sh!te weather, they can only (or could - this may be out-of-date) only do so on jobs. Whereas military could train in weather below civvy limits. Net result was that - by regulation and through no fault of their own - civvys were less practiced in real doggo weather.

Maybe somebody more up to date than about 5 years ago could confirm/deny??

[Jobza Guddun]

If we had the money that we waste on SAR, we could get some really good stuff for the SH force, like a replacement for the Sea King and Puma, instead of running them on year after year.

But we wouldn't have it would we? It would be spent on the civvy contractor, or more likely we would be X million quid worse off. And the SH fleet would still be largely tired.

[NR DROOP]

Jungly AEO Get back in your box. You have got a replacement for the ageing Sea king, its the Merlin and we all know what a cost effective white elephant that is. I think we all agree we need to save money but you are barking up the wrong tree with your idea of getting rid of military SAR. How many AEO's to aircraft do we have in the Navy ?...... mmmmm now that would save some money !!!