Justice for failed pilots?

[ChopRider]

Within the last few months at Shawbury a number of pilots have been chopped (ie withdrawn from training) from advanced helicopter training. Whilst this is a natural and necessary mechanism to keep standards fairly high the problem lies in how the chopped pilots are dealt with.

Of the pilots chopped, approximately half have been sent to start multi engine training and the other half have been completely withdrawn as aircrew. However, the opinion is that the pilots who were chopped completely are actually better pilots (In terms of grades etc.) than the ones who were sent to multis.

This is clearly wrong, why are less capable people being given a chance to restream whilst more capable pilots are being withdrawn as aircrew? Is this a high level decision to get rid of more aircrew, simply a case of bad timing for the chopped pilots or is there simply no reasoning behind it?

Thoughts and information on the matter would be appreciated.

[Hueymeister]

Whose opinion is it that they are better? Yours or the fully trained and experienced staff at Strawbs?

Are you one of the completely withdrawn?

[ChopRider]

No, I’m not one of the chopped so it's not just a case of sour grapes on my part.
With regards to the perceived standards, the overall grades throughout the course were a lot better and the opinions of people who have flown with the affected parties agree.
Also, a number of people received standard multis recommends from their boards and went multis and some of the people who were completely chopped received strong recommends.
Where's the sense is this?

[Training Risky]

Choprider,

I know exactly what you mean, I suffered a nightmare after completing Strawberry a couple of years ago. I was chopped at the end of the OCU for muppetry at low-level navigation, a few weeks before hitting a frontline sqn.

I watched in horror and disbelief as loads of studes behind me in the system at DHFS all got restreamed METS before they were anywhere near the end, while I was stripped of wings, flying pay and dignity, and told to find a ground job or leave. On the frontline as well I know of at least one female who was chopped for capacity, but as she had managed to keep CR status for the required 6 months she had to be restreamed METS.

The chopping board said in their report that I had displayed no capacity as a helicopter pilot and was a training risk (like the callsign) if sent to METS. I found this very hard to believe as I had proved myself to be more capable than the monkeys chopped at DHFS by actually PASSING the course... but go figure.

Years of holding and Redressing under QR1000 has still got me nowhere, but maybe one day I'll get what I want/deserve. The chimps running the aircrew desks at PMA are constantly on the back-foot as are their bosses above them, they will never get the numbers of required pilots correct. My deskie didn't support me one bit even though recommends were sent to PMA by other Commands such as STC and JHC which supported my appeal for a restream!
I quote the Air Secretary at the time (a 2-star): "A front-line sustainability study suggests the RAF will have a surplus of pilots until 2008". (Then why do we still recruit and why oh why are people pre-wings being restreamed?)

My personal pet theory is this: That by getting to an OCU, you are given enough rope to hang yourself with: if you fail, in their retarded brains you've proved you can't cope with a multi-engine OCU..... so chop him! But get chopped before an OCU, and guess what, you're still under PTC rules and budgets = more chance of a restream.

These may be the ramblings of a madman, but at the end of the day keep Redressing and appealing and writing letters and doing whatever you can. And most importantly, don't get chopped!

Training Risky

[mr ripley]

>This is clearly wrong, why are less capable people being given a chance to restream whilst more capable pilots are being withdrawn as aircrew?

As stated before, in whose opinion.

>Is this a high level decision to get rid of more aircrew, simply a case of bad timing for the chopped pilots or is there simply no reasoning behind it?

If there is a slot and you are good enough, you will get it. However there is more competition for slots at the moment.

>That by getting to an OCU, you are given enough rope to hang yourself with: if you fail, in their retarded brains you've proved you can't cope with a multi-engine OCU..... so chop him!

There is an element of truth in this. There is a lot more for them to base their decision on. You can not assume that everyone who fails helicopter training is worthy of a place on multis. However there is also an element of luck involved. This would not be happening if there was a demand for multi pilots

[lgw]

To solve the problem we should send everyone to BFJT. If you fail, your out. If you pass, meeting the fast jet standard, you are then streamed as you are now. The better few off to Valley the rest multi or helo. That way you have the better pilots on all three aircraft types.

[Triple Hooked]

You can not assume that everyone who fails helicopter training is worthy of a place on multis

Hang on a minute! If a guy is chopped on a complex helicopter OCU with 100-odd hours on a 2-engine, multi-crew, fully DASS'd helicopter...... should that not be an overwhelming qualification for an immediate restream to short-MEXO? (I think it should - the only thing missing is asymetric-thrust GH skills, and that should not be a problem with 200+ helicopter time)

I know of many pilots U/T who have been thrown out of the branch when their skills should have merited them a second bite of the cherry. Why should the experience mentioned in the paragraph above be thrown away in favour of some lemon who just scrapes through EFT and gets a long-METS course?:yuk:

[santiago15]

LGW,

"To solve the problem we should send everyone to BFJT"

You are absolutely correct. Better still, send everybody to Valley and then stream at the end of tac weapons.

Only one snag............ money!!

[Monty77]

I can fully understand the sense of injustice of those who fail in advanced training and see less able individuals swanning off down the ME route having been identified as weak at an early stage and streamed accordingly.

Don't stream everybody after tac weapons, make them all do the old basic course on Tucano. That way, everybody will have proved themselves capable in aerobatics, formation, IF and nav. It would be a set standard, enabling all pilots to come back and teach all of this as QFIs.

A few years from now, we'll have no set skill level to call upon. A bloke streamed ME after 50 hours of elementary instruction has no clue about turning upside down or whizzing around at low level at 4nm/min. His rotary peer simply doesn't 'do' upside down. Not their faults at all. So the only guys up for it are FJ mates and guaranteed there won't be enough to go around.

They've saved money in the short term with early streaming, but long-term it'll cost, and they've cut the old 'gold standard' of RAF wings. In the past, you had to prove yourself by passing basic. Now you just need to get through elementary.

Not the same from where I'm sitting.

[skaterboi]

My personal pet theory is this: That by getting to an OCU, you are given enough rope to hang yourself with: if you fail, in their retarded brains you've proved you can't cope with a multi-engine OCU..... so chop him! But get chopped before an OCU, and guess what, you're still under PTC rules and budgets = more chance of a restream.

Not strictly true. Sevewral years ago I was chopped on a rotary OCU, and was given a Multis Slot. The person before me who was chopped on said ocu (and was a bit of a muppet) got binned. However the person before him was good and got a slot on Multis. I grant you the climate several years ago was not as it is now but 2 out of 3 restreamed suggests that merit has something to do with the decision.

[Father Jack Hackett]

Triple Hooked / Monty77,

As someone who came through EFT in the last 10 years and took the direct root to METS I would question the implication that we all "scraped through EFT" and then swanned off to Multis.

Firstly, that implies that METS is an easy course and although I'm sure that it is easier than Valley / Shawbury, it is still a challenging course requiring dedication and flying ability.

Secondly, it implies that all those who don't get recommended to go to Tucanos wouldn't make it through the course and possibly progress to Valley and beyond.

I am quite bitter that I didn't get sent to Linton but not because I'm deluding myself that I should be in the Red Arrows by now (fat chance) if it wasn't for some dodgy streaming decision. I am bitter that this do-it-on-the-cheap flying training system doesn't provide a BFT course for all trainee pilots (myself included) allowing a more solid basis for streaming decisions and a more rounded flying-skill-set to take to whatever stream you end up on (i.e. the sytem we had 10 years ago).

Finally, I am very happy being a multi-mate and would not want to change it, so i'm a bit p***ed off at Triple Hooked and Monty 77 apparently dismissing multi boys. Hopefully that wasn't their intention.

Rant Over.

[BEagle]

Monty 77 is quite correct.

A common-core Wings course (as was the norm for around 25+ years) on a proper basic trainer such as the Tucano or Jet Provost before streaming is the only real answer.

Say 125 hours if you've been through non-streamed UAS to PFB/PIFG standard and 140 if you haven't?

And get rid of the irrelevance of EFT on the Plastic Spastic?

Seems to ring a bell.......

[ChopRider]

My intention on starting this thread was never to diss multis.
My first choice from EFT was multi's and personally i'd love to be 'living the dream' with the multis boys!

I just wondered what others thought of the seemingly unfair decisions.

[Spot 4]

Vacancies and Attitude make the differance. For Vacancies read LUCK!

A grafter that has not made the grade but worked his nuts off will get a better deal than somebody who things that they are gods gift to aviation. I know of a Nav who is still a Nav only because he said the wrong thing overheard by the wrong OC whilst on his SH Fast track pilots course.

FJ ethos is very differant to multi crew and if all were to graduate from Valley before coming to SH, it would not be a better place for it. That said, those that have travelled this road recently have done very well for themselves.

If you are chopped, my advice would be to wind your neck in and bite the bullet, whilst descretly researching if there is any element of the training system that has let you down. If daddy is at star rank, that helps!

[Yellow Sun]

ChopRider

I was a QFI when the multi stream from BFT was closed down (mid 1970s). I had 2 students on the course which finished just prior to the announcement being made. Role disposal had already taken place, one was destined for Valley and the Gnat, the other had a posting notice for Oakington and the Varsity. I had greatly enjoyed instructing both of them. The Valley bound stude had exceptional ability (I do not use that phrase lightly) and was a pleasure to fly with. His compatriot was harder to instruct, but the effort he put into the course more than made up for the extra work, he achieved a creditable pass. So, one went to Valley and on to a successful career and the other was invited to apply for another branch or leave, no other options offered. I felt deeply sorry for him.

All I can say now is that you also have my sympathy, but you are not the first to have the rough end of the stick and you won't be the last. Life's a bitch and then.... well, it's up to you.

YS

[foldingwings]

Forgive me, but Spot4 may have a very good point! Maybe it's not just about flying. Maybe it IS about attitude.

When I were a lad, you could get chopped for a lack of OQs (ie neither having a positive attitude nor a concomitant realisation that you were not necessarily God's Gift to aviation) which, when coupled with a flying inability even at an OCU, could be your downfall. Moreover, if you hadn't been CR for 6 months, then you were only borrowing the wings, until you were. Same rule applies today!

Now I'm not suggesting anything particular in this case but I am sure that BEagle would agree that whilst the RAF is all about flying, this forum (not this thread) often displays attitudes that mark out the "yoof of today" and a lack of what used to be understood as gentlemanly behaviour.

Look deeper into the facts before you start pillorying from an opinionated position, chaps!

What say you, BEags old boy!?

[BEagle]

The rationale as to who is re-streamed and who isn't is often a total mystery to those involved.

When I went through training, the multi stream suddenly stopped. At least, for streaming direct from RAFC or BFTS, that is. The only way to be re-streamed was to have passed the Gnat course and the pre-TWU Hunter course at the very least. Why? Because 'They' didn't need many ME pilots.

At Brawdy one day, our jovial Flt Cdr joked "Well, if you reckon this is all a bit too hard, you can always volunteer for choppers". "Bollocks, Boss" we said, "No b£oody way!".

All except 2 individuals who went and knocked on his door, asking to volunteer for choppers. "The only chopping you'll get is from me. Good bye, you'll be out of here PDQ" was the response - and off they went to become navigators.......

I was suspended from the Killing Fields of 237 OCU (along with many others...) in 1977 and went to Biggin Hill for Aircrew Reselection. Amongst guys there was one chap from the Harrier OCU and another from the Lightning OCU. I got Vulcans, the Harrier mate got F4s and the Lightning chap went to Hercules, later becoming very successful indeed. Interestingly, there were quite a few others down there and it was only those who'd taken it on the chin and got stuck in who were reselected back to flying. Even if that meant having to be deputy OC GD at Biggin as I was! Those who sat around sulking or playing Risk in the ante-room didn't last long - but it wasn't all gloom as there was a continuous supply of WRAFlettes who'd failed the old Fighter Controller course to add some interest to life.....:E

A lot of it is about attitude as foldingwings rightly says. But there's also a great deal of being in the wrong place at the wrong time as well.

But 'yoof' attitudes as exhibited on some of the Mil Forum threads (and I don't mean this one) clearly show that some people with the Wrong Stuff are getting through. Such as the little scrote trying to flog HM's property on ebay. Stealing from your mates, effectively - and something I was taught was one of the worst crimes in a society which depends upon trust to such a large extent.

Here endeth the lesson.

But good luck to all those who were unsuccessful at Shawbury. Hope that you get back in the saddle at some stage before too long.

[Sleeve Wing]

foldingwings and BEagle have once again got it right.
If I can add my threepenn'orth, another ever-present factor is the lack of foresight of our political masters.
My flying career was constantly messed up by both me and the present Government.
At 16 (and one day!), I went through the old pre-assessment scheme and was told to apply for a Cadetship when I was old enough.
At 17, at the time of the Duncan-Sandys' White Paper, I washed out completely at Hornchurch.
Not to be put off, I took a year out and reapplied to our Naval brethren in the January, was in uniform by the end of April, and had my Wings via
a through-jet course within two years. ( No holding then!)
Denis Healey (Labour Defence Secretary then) was, by this time, delving into the time-honoured pastime of screwing the FAA by scrapping five of the seven carriers we had when I joined.

I mentioned earlier that I never made things totally easy for myself either and, as a result of not being able to face being washed out of the Strike world, just short of CR (to fly Gannets.) I let myself down at a pre-chop interview by sounding off about our political masters and trying to blame them.
I was out - totally - on the street.
Took me a year to get it together and then got myself a Commercial instructing job prior to a successful Airline career.

I'm out to grass now, too old at 60, and am enjoying my continuing career as much, if not more so, than ever before, with work every day mainly teaching IF and Aerobatics.

The Moral ? DON'T EVER GIVE UP. If you want to fly as much as I did, you'll find a way.

Good Luck, Sleeve.

[jindabyne]

Sorry to hear you slipped on a banana skin BEagle. 237 was indeed a tough challenge, but I wouldn't subscribe to your inference that 'many' fell by the wayside - my recollection is that there were few who didn't make it. Good fun course - looking forward to the Blitz in December, along with the several hundred others that did make it.

Sorry chaps - gone off thread a bit!

[BEagle]

You went through that place before me. When I was there, no first tourist plt/nav crew had graduated for the previous 2 years. But the OCU flew 100% of their hours whilst graduating about 50% of their students..... We lost 2 out of 3 pilots and 1 out of 3 navs.

But sweeping changes followed about 18 months later. Not before time.

[Talk Reaction]

This is an understandably emmotive subject, after all to most of us it's a dream before a job. But at the nuts and bolts level it's a job to be filled, with the best person available in all respects at the time. To go back to the start, the guys that were much better at Shawbs may have been poor at IF or under the pressure of the OCU demonstrated undesirable crew skills making them unsuitable for METS. Attitude is a big thing but there is not one attribute that trumps any number of poor ones - even the best pilot in the world would be chopped if he was a nob that couldn't work with others (I'm not trying to setup any single seat jokes). I think we can safely say that none of us would want to pick bad eggs over good ones, there is always a whole picture that individuals perhaps only see part of.....
So, finally, in an attempt to soften the blow, when I came through guys had to pass FJ standard at Linton to stand any chance of even being streamed, as was mentioned by someone earlier, I'm certain we lost a lot of peole then that were a lot better than many of us today - the RAF just didn't need them and that was that, it doesn't owe any of us a job!

Sorry to the unfortunate few, however crappy the reason was there was one at the time and thats life.

[Barnstormer1982]

I know I might be thrown heavy ordnance at for saying this but I will anyway.

During my aptitude at the German AF I've had the pleasure to meet the head of the AF psychological dept. in person for a three-hour interview to talk about every bull**** you can think of and he told me that they suggest to some applicants with outstanding skills and test results (he referred to the top5% of the 2% of applicants that actually get the go for flying training) that they do not join the AF if they are prevented from taking the FJ route for medical reasons. He said, both multi engines and choppers might not give these high potential candidates what they need, leading inevitably to job dissatisfaction. :ooh:

Might that ring a bell?

Barnstormer

[Uncle Ginsters]

ChopRider,
I think that sadly we just have to accept that at all times, things come down to timing. At the moment, the ME stream is around 70 pilots overborne. Inevitably, the ME stream has tightened the inlet pipe to allow for natural wastage at the older end of the scale to 'thin-down' the numbers (if i can use 'thin' and 'ME stream' in the same sentence:D )

In answer to an earlier point though, we can't shut off the pipe totally as this would lead to a gap in the system for later years.

Certainly at the EFT level the emphasis has changed. Although the output standard is still the same, EFT graduates now must be fit all streams - so none of the old 'Fit ME only but a good lad in the bar' type recommends. This, in turn should help raise the standard of the RAF as a whole.

The bottom line? It's a tough time to get in and on to the front line, but if you're good enough, you'll get there.

Uncle G :ok:

[Nothing_but_blue]

I have been interested in reading this thread as we antipodeans have looked at streaming pilots for a while and thankfully we still have not gone down that road. Where we see similar problems is the difference between the Army and the Air Force. All three services attend BFTS on CT-4/B with the Navy and Air Force at the end of course, progressing to 2FTS on the PC-9/A. The Army on the other hand will go off and do their helo training. The problem lies in that the Army students at Tamworth (BFTS) are generally given a little more leeway as “we all know the standard doesn’t have to be as high” This obvious causes frustration and angst from both sides. 2FTS graduates a generally high level of student and the Air Force (and Navy) can be certain that the majority should be able to pass any operational conversion course, with the exception of fast jet. I think it works well.

I have always found the system often seems unfair at times (even ours and I think we actually reasonably good at giving the guys and girls a fair go.) but that’s life I am afraid. I have seen people scrubbed (chopped) that only a few years earlier would more than likely passed. Standards change all the time as do the Service’s needs. I guess the point is, if you are lucky enough (and good enough) to achieve what you want, to remember to try where possible to give the same opportunity to someone else, with in the confines of the requirements of the “Company”. Also, most who are scrubbed aren’t really told the full story or are slightly dillusionary which is part of the reason they got the chop anyway!!!! :) Seriously, often what seems unfair may in fact be far more reasonable than they realise.

[BEagle]

"All three services attend BFTS on CT-4/B with the Navy and Air Force at the end of course, progressing to 2FTS on the PC-9/A."

Interesting that. The RAF used to put everyone through BFTS on the JP with perhaps some UAS or EFTS Bulldog/Chipmunk time before that. Not now though; only the FJ stream do a core BFTS course - the RW and ME just get a few hours on the wretched Grob, then onto lead-in training.....

Hope you guys in Oz manage to maintain the quality standard of putting all your pilots through a proper BFTS! Lucky them!!

[PPRuNeUser0211]

don't know if anyones mentioned it, but the same applies to guys going to linton at the mo/in the recent past....

Get streamed multis from eft and ur safe, come to linton and get chopped.... out on your ear! Makes sense to someone somewhere!

[Pontius Navigator]

As far as the PTC-OCU divide, it is not as clear cut as that.

PTC still retain an interest in the ab initio until they have gone through the OCU and qualified on the sqn by the 6 month point.

Also, on the 'cheap' PTC courses they will do their utmost to get you through. On the OCUs they will do their utmost to get you through on the 'expensive' metal in the prescribed number of hours at the presecribed training rate. Extra sorties and extra time all throw doubts on capacity on the front line.

[flyboy007]

Personally I think chopped should mean chopped. If you get chopped, time to look for another employer/career. As mentioned earlier, sending everyone through either BFJTS or the Hawk would result in a better standard of pilot across all fleets. I know some people who shouldn't be allowed outside unsupervised let alone given an aeroplane to play with; yet they filter on down and get carried through the training system. Make everyone pass to a FJ standard and stream from there I say. No offence to those of you who have been chopped, I sympathise but tis my honest opinion.

[BEagle]

flyboy007, that's what the RAF used to do until the silly 'BJFT' or whatever it's called elitisim started.

It used to be known as 'Wings' standard; in the early '70s. Pass that to a uniform standard, then streamed to AFT on the Gnat, Pig or Whirlwind. Or AFT + TWU (Gnat/Hunter) for prospective pointy-heads.

You also got a decent amount of solo flying at RAFC or BFTS as well....

[PPRuNeUser0172]

All very well in theory flyboy007 but who is going to pay for everyone to get to FJ standard, however marginally and say ok mate of you go and fly wokkas?

Arguably, streaming people post EFT on the Plastic Spastic, as Beags likes to call it is maybe a little hasty but thats the way it is and it all comes down to cost. A better idea would be to let everyone have a go on the tincan and take it from there. This is what happened recently with guys getting their wings at Linton and being told they werent competitive for AFT at Valley.

Maybe with the advent of the MFTS in the coming few years the system will change but I suspect that it wont be the way we want. I recall hearing an MFTS rep at BAe claiming that once you have gone first solo, what is the point in doing any more solos? He claimed that you dont learn anything on a solo and that they are a waste of money. Now firstly, this chap was a Nav and secondly, I personally have learnt a hell of a lot on solos, including scaring myself sh!tless and thinking, hmmm wont do that again!

It is the way it is and it seems to work, we get enough guys through the system to fly the pointy jets on the front line and that is after all what the IPS is all about.

[Pontius Navigator]

In the 80s at nav school, weak navs in basics were streamed fast-jet on the principle of sink or swim. There was a general expectation that a weak nav could be eased through nav school on to trucks so the swift chop was seen to be more assured.

The same may apply to pilot training. Weak pilots may hack the copilot - 1st pilot route which is what the V-force had in the 70s and the truck fleet in the 70s and 80s.

[offshoreigor]

To All,

If anyone gets CT'd from RW, at least one would hope they have the hands you need for FW. Remember the term hands AND feet we heard as a prerequisite for wings?

As a 25+ year RW type (ASW-HS423, SAR-YMJ, CIV-Bandage 1 &3, Currently Offshore Heavy Metal-61), you can get by without the feet on FW but not on RW. It's a fact of life.

If you cant hover, your Queer. Sorry, I appologise to the "Gay Pilots Association".

Cheers,

:ok: OffshoreIgor :ok:

[oldbeefer]

All rings loadsa bells. When I went through training, you had to pass the JP course to be considered for helis (which I wanted). Now you have to (effectively) fail! However, the suspension boards do not come to any decisions lightly - it would probably amaze most of the students up for the chop just how much soul searching goes on. BUT, in times of change and budget restrictions it will only be those most likely to succeed who get to multis AND only if there are any slots. If you are one of those who didn't, you just have to accept you're not good enough! If we were still on the old scheme you would almost certainly have been chopped at Linton/Leeming/Syerston or Cranwell!!

[Hueymeister]

Every cloud...silver lining???? I cannot imagine how it must feel to have your dreams dashed in the way that 'chopping' must do, however, most of the choppees I saw at Strawbs in my time there were actually relieved in the end...the pressure and uncertainty were finally off, to a man they all went Multis and loved it/did very well....one's on C17's as a Flt Cdr now. With the civvy market expanding there has to be viable career oppotunities in that direction....make the most of them!
:E

[The Rusty B]

I stuck with helos and Wings of Gold, so didn't get to fly 'trucks' until BA. With hindsight, given an option or a descending guillotine, dunno what I would have done. However, the salient point is really that whatever system is being followed at the time, it will never be 100% fair to everybody. You'll just have to live with it. However, it seems to work no differently in the Airlines anyway.:(

[1000hrsdesk]

Unfortuantely, the big issue here is timing. I got chopped from 705 Sqn at Shawbury in 2003. There were 3 of us in the same boat who all got mulits. But, others who were chopped a few months before or after us found that the slots had gone. The lucky ones got nav. Loads of my mates (some just hours from wings) now have to compete for ground branches or PVR.

Unfortunately the axe has sharpened across flying trg. I can't really say this without sounding like an arse, but I got chopped at the right time.

I hope all goes well for your mates

Cheers
1000hrs

[Wingswinger]

It seems little has changed in RAF management since the early 1970s when I joined. Writing as one who did some chopping, IMHO the important thing is to put it behind you asap and concentrate on mastering your new role. When things change there may be opportunities. I knew several ex-multi and ex-chopper pilots who successfully crossed-over to FJ after a tour or two, some of whom had been chopped from FJ earlier in their careers. Even the odd ex-navigator or two. There was also an ex-V force AEO who became an absolute ace as a Harrier pilot.

[K9 Friendly Re-Tread]

1000hrs - 'There were 3 of us in the same boat who all got mulits.'

Very fashionable, but surprised the SWO didn't pick you all up for such an outrageous hairdo!!

[5 Forward 6 Back]

"Get streamed multis from eft and ur safe, come to linton and get chopped.... out on your ear! Makes sense to someone somewhere!"

Well, wasn't entirely like that when I was there. With restreaming for guys who passed the course looming, lots of rumours flew around that you needed to pass Prog Cx or BHT or whatever to be "certain" of a multis/RW seat if you were subsequently chopped.

What actually happened was you were restreamed if you were a good bloke who had worked hard and had an element of potential for something. The couple of guys who were chopped in the Prog Cx-BHT phase who didn't end up flying something else were chopped for reasons above and beyond failing the odd trip.

Work hard, be a nice bloke, get rewarded, it seemed to be; same at the end of the course. A couple of guys from my lot finally got the RW slot they had actually always wanted after not really enjoying the Tucano at all.

[FJ2ME]

Good posts guys-interesting to read about all the many-spangled faces of flying training before my time. However, there are, at the moment, several injustices in the system, which to my mind are morally lacking and should be addressed.

At the moment, the 'streaming confirmation' board that was introduced at the end of Linton back in 2004 has apparently been cancelled once more. Before the 'streaming confirmation' boards were initiated, all who passed Linton progressed to Valley, and the system was set up to reduce the FJ IPS and address the backlog of holds-so we were told. Apparently the 'sitch' is now that if you foul up during BFJT you're out of flying completely, if you get to the end then you go directly to Valley. Now surely this is double jeopardy. If you have marginal recommends coming out of EFT, and win a place at BFJT, then you may end up worse off than if you had gone to Multis straight away. (I know at least one person who ended up with nothing for whom this is certainly the case.)

Those of us (yes I am bitter, nay incensed) who through no fault of their own passed through in 2003/4, met the standard (continuously reassured that these had not been changed) and were not chopped, now find themselves in their second or third choice stream, and STILL holding for longer than their FJ mates. BFJT students are still being trained on the same syllabus that we were, and provided they keep their nose clean, onwards to Valley they go. Here I am, on hold having already passed the course with no chance of sitting in a Hawk. Worse still, some people already had their joining instructions for Valley and had arranged their move when they were told that, subject to a streaming confirmation board, they were now off to multis after some more hold! Surely on a business case alone, it is cheaper to continue with those who have already passed the course than to keep bringing more studes through?!

For me, the answer is simple: Too many pilots = cut down recruiting but accept the commitment to the guys you have already tipped into the system. For an organisation that hammers on about integrity in its personnel, this stinks like a farmer's slurry pit.

[PileUp Officer]

I couldn’t agree with you more, keep the people who are already in the system (unless they are really rubbish- ie fail after a few flights, not on wing’s prerides for instance) and cut back on recruiting! It seems simple to me- as you say – from a business point of view if nothing else.
It is absolutely disgusting that you have young guys and girls who have given their whole adult lives to the RAF and are clearly good enough for restreaming being told that they are not good enough when they clearly are. All because someone up high has screwed up the numbers and doesn’t have the balls to admit it.

I understand ‘the needs of the service’ and all that but you have to have some uniformity of standards otherwise the system is grossly unfair. The Gp Capts and Air Comms are signing bits of paper which are destroying people's lives just because they don’t want too many people holding!
I’m sure that this could be challenged legally – what are other people’s thoughts on this avenue?

PUO

[Training Risky]

I recommend that ANYONE who has fallen foul of the 'streaming confirmation' board should slap in a Redress under QR1000 straight to their local PSF, which will find its way to Binnsworth shortly afterwards.

That'll make the pond-life in PMA sit up when they have to come in on a weekend and process them!:mad: