Unrecognisable RAF

[J.A.F.O.]

Reading some of the recent threads, notably U Need 2 Know, NCO Aircrew and Military Funnies, I have to say that I don't recognise the RAF that I left behind about ten years ago.

Also talking to those who are still in, the spirit seems to have gone completely.

So, am I right? Is it that bad? Or, is this just the cynical face that you're showing to the world outside?

[tokentotty]

It's not THAT bad! Yes, there are a load of "initiatives" that we all end up having a bit of a cynical whinge over, yes, we're a decreasing force but on a day to day level most of us can still have a good laugh. As a JO you can stay out of the way of a lot of this policy stuff if you want to and still go back to the mess of an evening, get a bit squiffy (just the 1 white wine spritzer for me obviously) and enjoy yourself.

This isn't a bad lifestyle if you ask me.

At work "the spirit" is definitely still there. More red tape probably but most people are here to do their job as well as they can. We're not all miserable all of the time!!

People don't tend to post stuff on pprune that they are generally happy with. More likely to have an anonymous gripe.

[J.A.F.O.]

Only one reply, eh.

Still that's pretty much what I hoped.

[Ed Winchester]

JAFO,

15 years in and I still love it.

Can't speak for anybody else, but plenty of those around this neck of the woods seem to be enjoying themselves too. Banter is as good as ever.

Seems to me that a lot of the cynicism comes from people who have already left trying to convince everybody else that they made the right decision and there is nothing good left.

As tokentotty rightly said, people are more likely to start a thread on something that annoys them than something that they are happy with.

[bondo]

It's ****e! Too much time in the desert over the last few years. No top cover from the Airships, no recognition of the crap many of us have had to endure during Kosovo, Afghanistan, Iraq............just joined, welcome!

See how you feel in a few years, where is that redundancy application Biggles?

:(

[stiknruda]

JAFO's post struck a cord with me. Perhaps it is just the anonymity of Pprune - but pertaining to the Air Force, there do seem to have been far more negative threads over the past 18months than before. Perhaps there is just more negativity in light of the most recent defence spending reviews across all three services?

I left 20 years ago and peruse this forum as I am still generally interested in what is going on. I also have a few mates who are still in and very occasionally wonder what I'd be doing if I had stayed!

Very possibly, retraining for a "Do you want fries with that?," job!

Stik

[BEagle]

I'd still join the RAF I joined in 1968 like a shot.

I might perhaps even join the RAF of 2000.

But nothing would persuade me to join the RAF of 2004.......

[Good Mickey]

Thank God 4 that!!

[BEagle]

I wouldn't get in anyway!

Presumably '4 that' is kiddy-speak for 'for that'?

[jindabyne]

He cast - you bit

[Spotting Bad Guys]

I'd agree that the RAF has changed massively in the 18 years I've been in.....but in the last 6 years I've been to the USA, Canada, Kenya, Oman, Qatar, UAE, Germany, Cyprus, Italy, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait. (I've probably left some out but the memory fades under the affluence of incohol). OK - some of the dets have been really sh***y but some have been fantastic! You have to accept that things change!

I still like it.


SBG

[In Tor Wot]

Yep, it's changing. Been in nearly 20 years and for 18 of them thoroughly enjoyed every minute (including the cr@ppy bits). However, over the last 2-3 years I have noticed the spring leaving the step of most of the people on the stn. The causes are as minor as they are numerous - death by a thousand paper cuts, as it was described to me a while ago.

However, one of the fundamental changes over the last 2-3 years is the lack of a senior officer (any Service) that speaks his mind (regardless of whether or not I like/dislike what he says). Can you imagine Maj General Inge putting up with the last round of ill thought-out cuts, or the gagging of the Service's central public relations offices?

Poor morale doesn't just 'happen', it has to be generated and unfortunately the hierarchy’s lack of leadership and, more importantly, support has chipped at the morale so badly that people I would have considered the most loyal, lively, fun and enlivened, are seriously looking at the details of the redundancy package.

Enjoyed it overall? Yes, very much. Recommend it as a future career option for a youngster ? . . . . not sure.

[Skeleton]

I left the RAF after 26 years last year and its the best move I ever made. I loved my time in the forces and miss it like crazy but life goes on.

Easy to say "It was not the Air Force I joined" but in my case it was most certainly true.

Forget to many dets, forget manpower stretch, forget red tape.

Easy to say I miss the people but thats also true.

What made me leave??.
.
.
.
.

The Leaders of today.

At least the Scottish Gp Capt from a northern Q base could make a decision in years gone by. (He even gave me a lift to the runway caravan one day - Didnt have the heart to tell him I was calling "Sappho" not S*****!!)

The majority I dealt with in the last few years were more interested in protecting there own interests than those of the men they were supposed to lead, and one in particular made it quite clear on a excersise he would sacrifice the enlisted s*** rather than save them.

More worryingly his right hand men, although prepared to admit in private it was the wrong decision, were not prepared to question let alone challenge him, and I truely believe if the exercise had been for real they would have taken the same course of action. Weak kneed and cowardly to say the least.

[Wizzard]

Just to put my ha'penny worth in as a former Army flyer, I left 17 or so years ago.

I was 'Army barmy' and loving it. I then started to notice that the younger officers - Major and below - around me had undergone a subtle change in that they were constantly looking over their collective shoulders to check that they were seen to be toeing the party line - reluctant to make any decision that would be seen as even mildly against the system, even if they should have been looking after the 'lads'. In one of my better 'Mystic Meg' moments I saw the future and pulled the plug.

Now these same officers have risen through the ranks, they still refuse to buck the system even when the politicians and civil sevrvants make stupid cuts leaving the lower levels stretched beyond breaking point.

IMHO that is where the problems lie, not with the individuals that makes the decision to commit probably the best years of their lives to serving their country.

Wiz


ps can I have my 'Grumpy Old Man' badge now!

[Skeleton]

I then started to notice that the younger officers - Major and below - around me had undergone a subtle change in that they were constantly looking over their collective shoulders to check that they were seen to be toeing the party line - reluctant to make any decision that would be seen as even mildly against the system, even if they should have been looking after the 'lads'. In one of my better 'Mystic Meg' moments I saw the future and pulled the plug.

That describes it far more eloquentley than my tale. I even saw a fight over who was going to do a brief between a departing officer posted and her replacement, because it was important they got "face Time" with the CO. It was a pity they didn't show as much passion or drive when it came to "people" decisions, where they were both apt to run for cover, umbrella in the approved position.

Mind you i was known to lose my teddies with them :)

[KPax]

Completed a lot more than 25 years and am still enjoying the the life, however I too have some gripes. JO's some of them are excellent but too many are interested in themselves and forget the people working under them. Too many times the SNCO is asked to sort things out (I have no problem with that it is my job) but I would like some topcover if things don't work out and even a bit of praise if things work out. Too many people looking to grab the glory. Equipment is another huge gripe. There is not enough to go around, everything is budget based rather than ensuring your troops have the right kit. Too many people give the young recruits a hard time, they are the product of society and perhaps it is our job to encourage them in what we think is the right direction. Sorry for the soap box. I am still proud to be in the RAF.

[supert300]

I've been in the RN for a short period of time compared to the rest of the old and bold, and I have to admit that I am already cynical about the system. There are definitely things that annoy me about the military, but I have to say the pros still outweigh the cons for the time being. I wonder, for those of you out there who have been serving for some time now, did the old hands in your day say that the armed forces were going to the dogs? For those of us who have joined in recent years we don't really know what it used to be like, so we just have to learn to get on with the system we have now. I wonder in a few years time when I become an old hand (if I decided to stay that long) will I be saying the armed forces have gone to the dogs?

[The Swinging Monkey]

Like beagle,

If we could take the RAF back to where it was about 10 years ago, then lots of us would join again (or probably still be in!)

Sadly, the PC world (no not the computer peopl) have just messed the whole thing up, and sight has clearly been lost, especially from the airships. Their sole purpose in life is to cover their ar$es, not make mistakes and get promoted - Hooo Raaa.

I need a lie down - rant over

Kind regards
The Swinging Monkey
'Caruthers, get me a Grouse fast!!'

[NURSE]

the Corporate model of armed forces?

[Jimlad]

Of course while we all claim its going to the dogs, I was reading a book on the battle of the Atlantic recently in which the author lambasted the current state of the RN, too few ships, too little morale, too many tasks and tired people. Said book was published in 1956.

As John Winton once put it, "my father and grandfather both left the RN cos it was going to the dogs. The navy's always going to the dogs. It's when people start talkinhg about our bright shining future you start panicking" (1959ish)

[joe2812]

As someone off the Cranners early next year, and who has never wanted to do anything but join the RAF, I have never read anything so disheartening re my choice of career in the services.

The RAF may not be what it was 15, 20, or 30 years ago, but nor is the rest of the world. And whilst I appreciate I do not see the day-to-day goings on of all you guys, from all your various walks of life in the service, I find it hard to believe that the offer of a life long career with one of the finest air forces in the world would not be good thing.

Maybe it's the fact that people go about moaning, and not to praise the good servicemen and women, the good dets, the enjoyable times I bet each and every one of you has which is leading to such a cynical and pessimistic view.

The youth of today may be less tolerant, more obnoxious and a general pain in the a** in your opinions, but its the youth of yester-year currently carrying the banner for our services.

Regards to all,

[BEagle]

Mate- it isn't even what it was 5 years ago, let alone 10, 15 - or even 35!

Good luck at RAFPC!

[caspertheghost]

Joe,

Don't let these old farts put you off with their "it used to be so much better..." rhetoric. You've got to remember that in 'their' day they were still watching black and white tv and the jet engine was some new fangled contraption that would never catch on!;)

In my relatively short 5 or 6 years as a pilot in the RAF I've had an absolute ball, seen parts of the world I wouldn't have seen had I got a 'proper' job, made some fantastic friends who I'd do anything for, and best of get paid to drop bombs and blow stuff up! The pay's not bad and there's a decent non-contributory pension but that's not why the people I know join the forces, it's for the camaraderie, banter and feeling of being part of something worthwhile.

I can only speak from an aircrew perspective, I'm sure people in other branches/trades feel the same as I do about their jobs though. You've got to remember that it's easy for people to come onto Pprune and vent their anger and frustration, and it's these people that get noticed, very few people will ever post about the good things in the job.

Hope this helps to alleviate some fears you may have, but I'm sure some of the Zimmer-frame wielders may try to slag me off for posting a positive message on this board though!!

Fly safe, Casper.

[BEagle]

Actually, we had colour TV even in the Junior Mess at Cranwell in 1968! Only on BBC2, of course, as 625-line colour didn't start on BBC1 until Nov '69.

And, whilst hoofing around in horrid hairy blue battledress, we could at least watch the Senior Entry and the Penult' s flying around the circuit in proper military jet training aeroplanes.....

Now bend over, Crapser, and feel this Zimmer frame rammed up where the sun doesn't shine...

:E

[caspertheghost]

Who said I was talking to you?!?:p

[BEagle]

Ah - OK! ;)

And no, we didn't call fighters 'scouts' - or have pterodactyl strikes!

[Scud-U-Like]

Yoof rap says it far better than I can:


Call it evolution, progress, regress, a mess
What sort of Air Force settles for sameness?
Puttees, hairy mary, man it's scary
Only boring uniforms should never vary

Da BEagle ain't rockin' wit da Force no more
Cos there ain't no room for a dinosaur
V-Bombers, they have done their time
Cos no one is lookin' for a bucket of sunshine

Hey there JayO, how d'ya like da raff?
Don't tell me ya like it, don't make me laugh
It wasn't like dis, when I joined up
And papa Trenchard was flyin' in a Sopwith Pup

So let me ask you, if the Air Force is mingin'
Why dey queuin' and tryin' to get in?
The secret by now, you have guessed
Cos they all wanna Rise Above the Rest!


(Comin' to an AFCO near you. Rrrrrespec)

(PS Apols to Beags. We love ya really)

[The Swinging Monkey]

Casper,

Now steady on there old boy! (sorry, youngster)
We did have colour TV, and Jets were always going to catch on!

As one of your 'old farts' you must not criticise us for telling the truth on this forum. Things were very very much better, even 5 years ago like Beags says.

Thats NOT to say they are not 'good' now, it simply says that compared to 5, 10, 15 years ago things are now pants!!

So, if youv'e had a ball for your short 5 yrs service (are you shaving yet by the way??!) then try to imagine what a blast the likes of Beagle and I had in the 70's, 80's and 90's - it was just brilliant, and I would do it all again under the circumstances.

Our problem, if you like, is that having had it so good, it now saddens us all to see it so 'bloody bad' today - relatively speaking of course!

Anyway Casper, you cut along and get my zimmer frame polished, there's a good chap and you fly safe and enjoy yourself whist you can!

Best wishes and kind regards
The Swinging Monkey
'Caruthers, a glass of your finest please old man!'

[maxburner]

First. let me state some credentials. Joined in the early 70s. Flew some fast and wonderful machinery. Did my penance in the MoD, but actually, it was a good job and I enjoyed it. Left in 97 for a job in industry, but carried on flying until 02 as a reserve.

I don't beleive the spirit has changed all that much. Yes, it's far more PC now, but that's not all bad and in my experience the girl(s) on the squadron were as talented as the guys, and put up with the same sh1t under the same conditions so a little more respect for the ''weaker''sex was overdue. The deployments are a heavy burden, but trust me, they were in the 70s and 80s too.

As for the other side - the grass is not all greener. PC is a way of life some some people - often talentless gnomes who see it as a way of making a career when they can't cut the day job. I met very few people in the RAF who could be said to be time-wasters, but I meet them every day now.

The RAF developed in me a lot of talents I didn't appreciate I had until I left. I think the guys and girls in the Service now are every bit as good as I was, and have every bit of the same spirit.

[BEagle]

And in the RAF I joined, even as a UAS APO a trusty wrinkled retainer (like Carruthers) would indeed bring one a cup of tea first thing in the morning before one cut along to fly HM's Chipmunks!

But now:

1. No UAS APOs
2. No wrinkled retainer
3. No tea
4. Plastic aeroplanes operated by the Rental Air Force
5. And perhaps it won't be long before UASs disappear altogether.......

:*

Just a little snapshot of how things have gone....

Cranwell in the GE era was very civilised - but then they wrecked it when it went comprehensive after Henlow closed. I also think that ending Basic Flying Training at the RAF College was an appalling decision.

Lots and lots of pinpricks and death by a thousand cuts over the years, but it really went down the pan from about 2000, in my view

[The Swinging Monkey]

BEags,

you missed number 6.........

being able to give the men a damned good thrashing now and then, whato!!

I think the major decline started mid to late 90's when the PC idiots started to ply their evil trade!

maxburner, I don't think it was the deployments that killed it for me, it was the coming back from one of those 'lengthy' deployments, only to find a snotogram from the ped staff to say that 'your out of date on your AFT and we have written to Harry', or 'welcome back, you're on Orderly Officer this weekend Sir'

As for PC, I beg you, pray tell what good has come out of PC in the RAF, 'cos me and the rest don't know!

Kind regards
The Swinging Monkey
'Caruthers, assume the position, it's time for a thrashing old bean!'

[caspertheghost]

Gentlemen, gentlemen,

I was in no way inferring that todays RAF is as much fun as it was in days gone by, but it's still a damn good job. Yes we've been hit by cuts followed by yet more cuts while taking on more and more crappy jobs in more and more dusty sandpits, but I can't think of any other career that would offer as much of a challenge and as much fun as the one I'm in right now.

Sorry to be contoversial and post something positive, but I feel it's a bit of a shame to hear the job I and all my colleagues love being slagged off every time I log on! It's also a pity to put off prospective new candidates with all the negativity posted here. Yes, tell them what it's really like, but don't make it out to be a crappy choice to join the RAF. Just because it used to be better doesn't mean it's rubbish now.
Jaffa cakes used to be bigger too, but I haven't met anyone yet who'll turn one down when offered!:ok:

[J.A.F.O.]

I certainly never intended to disparage the RAF of today, and definitely not anyone serving in today's air force. I only wanted to find out whether it had got worse, or whether I was just coming across the usual groans and moans.

I think I've had my question answered and, as to whether it is worse and if so by how much, well:

a) We always look back at the good stuff.

b) If you aren't having a good time in your early twenties with a flash car, worldwide travel and a pocket full of readies; then when will you?

c) Nostalgia ain't what it used to be.

Casper, for one with such a short time in the service you show great insight - I can confirm that jaffa cakes were larger in former years.

[joe2812]

They used to be bigger? A child of the 90's, such a shame... :(

[Melchett01]

I find it hard to believe that the offer of a life long career with one of the finest air forces in the world would not be good thing.

Joe, not sure that the life-long career thing is valid anymore. And yes the PC brigade are unbelievably irritating. Having spent 4 months getting Tony's drinks cabinet to Iraq last year, and when I got back, what was the first thing I found on my desk???? A letter from someone v senior 'politely' enquiring why I hadn't done my EO training???:\

That said, given all the bollocks, the cuts - that's what they are (if it looks like a duckk, walks like a duck and goes quack then it's a duck), the time increasing time away from home and the fact that I don't even recognise the service from the one I joined in late 90s (waiting for the get some time comments in from the old and bold) I still love it and wouldn't change it for the world.

And all the crappy factors mean that when you do get one over on the system, and it is possible, it's all the more satisfying. My desky thought he was shafting me by sending me to Iraq. Best bloody det I've ever done, including all the bombs, whizz-bangs and bullets. My grandfather, as an ex Para CSM gave some advice that is even more pertinent today than before I joined. When it's crap, it will be 10 times crapper than anything you could imagine working in an office. When it's good, there's nothing on earth that can touch it, and you've just got to hope that the 2 balance each other out.

Yes its rough at the moment, and will be for the next couple of years, but I'm clinging on for the ride and bollocks to anyone that gets in my way! If you're serious about joining Joe, go ahead and do it. Just don't expect an easy time or that the bulls**t will disappear any time soon. We're a bunch of moaning farts on here partly because were right but this is the only place to whinge at the boss and not get a bollocking.

[PHANTOM PHAN]

GREETINGS~

When I first found this forum, I was distracted by the information and the pictures posted. Never thought I would find RAF here.

As to your discussion, no one is actually seeing the real problem, since you are all on the inside. But, a former neighbor who retired early from USAF gave me a clue; he was responsible for turboprops.

He told me he noticed a change when they replaced the AIR POLICE -APES- with Security Police, and then again when the Berlin Wall came down: NO PRIMARY ENEMY!

And then, the politicians got into the budget and started funneling off money toward their own ends. To the point that we no longer have the latest and greatest technologies to defend our nations in every sector and service.

Instead, in the US, they keep duct taping the B-52. Support vertical take off planes -OSPREY- that are killing Marines, simply because its built in our state-mentality.

One of our war heros -SENATOR JOHN McCAIN- ran interference on a Boeing Tanker contract to start replacing the aging KC-135s, simply because of it being a beneficial deal to Boeing. Yet, if they follow the DODefense guidelines, by the time that the 135s are replaced, the 767s will also be obsolete.

Face it, we have let politicians not only run the wars into a failure, but now we are letting them choose the weapons we will fight with because of backroom deals to benefit them.


My biggest worry is that BOEING will be put out of the military aircraft business and AIRBUS will be built in the USA.

I was proud to see the old names: BOEING, DOUGLAS, LOCKHEED, CONVAIR...

Oh well, I guess its time for someone to turn out the lights and start writing the USA epilogue: THE RISE AND FALL OF THE GREAT AMERICAN EMPIRE...

Thank you for your time, Alex

[Mr C Hinecap]

Ah - wonderful. I return from a trip and find a corner of Pprune that still smells of old men, woodbines and soggy biscuits. Feels like that comfy old chair from the corner of the Ante Room!
I have a paltry 9 yrs in. I didn't even join the RAF I applied to join (Chivenor & Brawdy gone - damn) and I'm not going to be here for life. However, I'm happier here than anywhere else right now. It is a long way from the days of the Empire at one end to the extreme PC / IIP of the other end, but you can still have fun and - more importantly - find the finest people on the planet in between. I find the promotion of dull managers over LEADERS and managers the worst crime. I want to work for someone I want to work for (hope you follow). Spares and procurement can be modelled and predicted - people are more of an art than a science. Different times, different world, but there are great people if you can find them. Me? Happy if I can look myself in the mirror and think I tried my best for the task and my people.

Getting rid of UAS APOs means proper APOs can wear the rank with pride!:ok:

[J.A.F.O.]

joe2812

Yeah Jaffa Cakes were bigger; the summers were hotter and lasted longer; there was always snow on Christmas Day; the girls were prettier; the beer was cheaper and didn't give you a hangover; you could eat all you wanted and not get fat.

Shame you missed it, it was great.


Mr C Hinecap

Just precisely how do you know which cologne I wear, however mine does have a hint of damp dog.

[Mmmmnice]

JAFO - some of the same old rules apply...such as 'if you can't take a joke you shouldn't have joined'
but you have to work overtime on your sense of humour!

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

Sorry but it's sh1te:} Been around for 3.5 times longer than Mr C so have had a fair amount of service experiance to formulate this balanced veiw:rolleyes:

I trust the majority of my superiors as much as I trusted Bliar over WMD and as I look around and see so many good folks PVR I can happily rationalise my hanging on for the promise of the new pension scheme:O

Litmus test for me is that I would not allow my 2 teenagers to join........not because of the job, which is, more often than not, as much fun as you can have with your clothes on.........but because of the "Bliar Clones" who are more interested in their own progression than the well being of their people:yuk:

Can someone please explain to me why we have so many folks in harms way in Basrah?

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

[Milt]

Post WW2 RAF NCO Aircrew Ranking System.

A few of you old timers visiting this thread must remember that CRAZY NCO ranking system which the RAAF, to its discredit, picked up also.

When did the RAF system commence and how long did it persist?

The RAAF introduced it in 1948 and the first post war aircrew trainees wore Laurel Wreath patches to show they were Trainees.
At Wings the pilots became Pilot 4s by inserting a star into the laurel wreath.
Then it was Pilot 3, 2, 1 with successive stars and Master Pilot with a WO's crown instead of stars.

Hear tell that the RAF stars were in the reverse order - P4 = 4 stars, P3 = 3 stars, P2 = 2 stars and P1 = 1 star.

Can anyone confirm that an RAF P1 had 4 stars?

Perhaps the stars should have been rubber stamped on the back of one's hands !

[Melchett01]

Probably one of the most disturbing changes to take place is the increasing politicisation of the military. Whilst the military is an instrument , albeit a blunt one, of govt policy, and has been for since Pontius was a pilot, it seems to have gotten out of hand in recent years.

Can only lead to disaster as the politicians make yet more cock-ups and then expect the military to bail them out, whilst the senior officers at the top of the military do little or nothing to stand up to them because that wont get them their 'K' or next stripe.

[Bismark]

Interesting thread. I've been around for more years than I care to remember and still in the Andrew. Yes things have changed and we've shrunk but has life in Service changed that much? As far as I can see the boys (and girls) are as professional as ever, fly b****y good aircraft and still seem to have fun. They certainly seem to drive better cars (good old FRIs, long may they live!) and crash less. What we need to sort out is the constant attempt in the hQs and MadHouse to get rid of each other, just because one Service is shrinking a bit faster than the other two. Life would be really dull if we were all in the RAF (I think we tried that after WW1 and it didn't work).

[circle kay]

Milt, The post war NCO aircrew ranking system in the RAF had the same 'star' system as the RAAF. Planning an assault on the north face of the loft this afternoon to find a book with details of the dates. However when it all ended in tears unlike the RAAF the Brits and the Kiwis retained the Master Aircrew rank instead of reverting to WO. This I was told was done to pacify 'real' WOs

Incidentally, I wonder how much the new ‘Banana Republic General’ WO rank slides cost. What exactly was wrong with the old ones?

[Pontius Navigator]

Always broken in Wilts, I can beat you.

I reckon the time of change came with the military salary (and I'd only been in 10 years then). Up until then it was still possible to find JOs sharing cars. Limited bar bills ahd only stopped 10 years earlier but we still didn't earn enough to enjoy ourselves outside the wire.

With the MS we started to earn enough to be able to eat and drink with civvies and start to buy our own cars and houses. We moved out of the mess and mess life started to die. That marked the big change.

Only of dets was everyone back in the mess. I had two good senior officers on my first sqn then we got a new boss - p*ll*ck. One result was that the sqn ldr resigned after his subsequent tour as he had been sh*ft*d too. Good news the CO got shafted on his next tour as well.

From a slightly older persepctive I started to appreciate the wg cdrs better but there were still brown nosers around who pissed everyone else off.

After the MS, the Hodgekinson report did for sqn ldrs what the V-force did for pilots - too many sqn ldrs and too many officers.

OK we now have few toys. Roger Honey's only 1,000 JO aircrew of 15 years ago is probably a lot less now. The professional Ops Support ops officers are a lot cheaper than aircrew even if they keep well out of harms way.

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

Pontius,

Whilst I agree with all you say I believe the reason we find ourselves in such a shambolic state is two fold.

1. The fact that we give our Lords and Masters two years at a time to re invent the wheel before they clear off onwards and upwards leaving absolute mayhem behind :mad: A classic indication of this is that I can't ever remember when procurred anything, from footwear to fighter aircraft that did "exactly what it says on the tin".............can anyone :rolleyes:

2. Divoloving budgetry responsibilty and thus dangling the promotion carrot to those short sighted t@@sers who have left us in the dire financial state we live with day to day.

If there was some sort of accountability then those of us at the coal face could maybe understand but there simply isn't. It's amazing to think that you can make a really inept decision, which will lead to us probably buying another unfit for purpose aircraft, which further leads to the probable closure of an airbase and still move onwards and upwards :rolleyes:

As I said I am now just waiting to see if the new pension scheme really offers what it has so far promised, then I'll simply drift in the wind till it's time to collect.........hardly very proffesional but look at the examples my lords and masters are setting:mad:

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

[circle kay]

Milt,
Found the book. The 'star system' was as you described for the RAAF apart from aircrew one. Aircrew one and two both had three stars; in addition aircrew one had a crown above the 'albatross'.
Aircrew under training known as aircrew cadets (as today) had the Laural leaves and 'albatross' but no stars. Aircrew Cadet to Aircrew one wore the badge on the upper arm as per stripes. Masters wore it on the lower arm as now.
The system ran in the RAF from June 1947 till mid 1950.

[Cambridge Crash]

After a sojourn of a year or so I have returned to PPrune to spot the sad, tired old arguments that are dragged out by all and sundry about the decay of the RAF. As I am sure others have noted (and I will add my 2 euro-cent worth) the Services are a reflection of society and remained governed by civilians, and a good job, too. Do we want a Navy/General/Air Staff more reminiscent of Turkey - where inter alia they control the education system?

PC nonsense - it may seem like nonsense but would we find jokes about Blacks or disabled people particularly funny now? I attended a Dining In several years ago where a prominent SH driver told a particularly blue joke. There were a few embarrased titters around the room. Most of us cringingly curled our toes in embarrasment. Whether we like the apparent onslaught of 'pc' regulations or not is immaterial. They have been enacted by secondary legislation and thus the Services are obliged to implement them. Much hilarity is also made of seemingly inane H&S regulations, but as a 'Commander' within the Services - at any level - could you rest easily if one of your troops was injured or killed in a preventable peace-time accident that could be attributed to bravado rather than caution. Added to that is the loss of Crown Immunity and the risk of criminal prosecution and personal ligitigation. I accept that there has been a certain feminisation of society - and I would commend B Shephard's 'A War of Nerves', however the resolve shown by our troops in Iraq and Afghanistan show that the mettle is there when required.

Guys - and I suspect the majority of whingers on this thread are men - let's move on with the rest of society and support the Services and the diverse range of personnel contained therein.

Crash (the most boring man in NATO)

PS: Good to see you back Mr C Hine Cap.

[BEagle]

"And that speech can be heard later tonight on BBC2"

[Cambridge Crash]

BEagle - and I suppose that you find Terry Wogan still amusing? I don't listen to Radio 2 - too Kantian neo-Liberal; I want a good Positivist viewpoint.

Crash (the most boring man in NATO)

[Fanstop]

:mad: As a JO in the Army I agree that there are alot of "QFT Brown nosers" out there. But any commander worth his salt will spot this a mile away and give it the credit that it is due. *$ck All.

I have been fortunate to have commanders that prefer the slightly more robust JO who likes to live life to the max, party, etc. as long as he can still do his job and well.

Having paid numerous visits to the adj's office for a slap on the knuckles for various drunken misdemeanours, I have still managed to stay on all the senior officers good books. Far more I would say than some of the brown nosers I know.

Having thought about a move to the light blue, would I have as much fun??????

debate.


:D

[Big Cat Handler]

Fanstop,

I certainly hope so. I've yet to meet a senior light-blue officer without any tales of getting in trouble as a JO, so presumably the odd one doesn't do anything unpleasant to your career. Of course, they're all perfectly well behaved now... :rolleyes:

BCH

[Fanstop]

Would you consider the SH chaps more adventurous than the rest??????:)

[BEagle]

Cambridge Crash - actually BBC2 is a television station. Try pushing the little '625' button on your TV, perhaps? Terry Wogan is on Radio 2, or, as you probably know it, the Light Programme. And yes, (oops, sorry DW freaks, I started a sentence with a conjunction) I find the curmudgeonly old chap's humour as amusing as ever it was.

Not the Gustav Cambridge Crash?

Fanstop sounds a bit of a character who would undoubtedly have had equal fun in the RAF of yore. But now....?

Let's have Boris Johnson for PM and bring some colour into the grey-suited world.

[Whipping Boy's SATCO]

I still quite like the RAF. It may be different to the one I joined almost 20 years ago but I suspect the kids of today are more aware of what it is all about than I was in 1985. In fact, I can see the 'attraction' of OOA dets etc. However, this is not the RAF that I joined and it has been a bit of a culture shock changing from Fortress Germany to Expeditionary ops.

I will leave in 2 years time. I cannot complain as I have achieved much. There is no bitterness or anger, merely a feeling of tiredness and a need to move on.

To those that have just joined, or are considering joining, good luck. The RAF is still what you make of it. In many respects, it may offer more family stability as we draw down to a relatively small number of bases.

Finally, I echo some of the previous comments. As a 19 yr old pilot officer in Germany on my first tour, I was told by an experienced flt lt "Don't hang around son, it isn't the RAF I joined". He was most probably right but I did hang around and I did enjoy it. Let's not get too negative about change; I think those of us who have had exposure to life outside the services would acknowledge that we are surrounded in uncertainty.

[Scud-U-Like]

Wash your hard drive out, Cambridge Crash! How dare you come onto PPRuNe suggesting the armed forces ought to bear any resemblance to the society they serve. Why, the very notion is tantamount to high treason. If white, heterosexual, conservative men can't find asylum (asylum: don't get me started on that) in the armed forces, without having to encounter poofs, women, ethnics and bloody loafing, useless youths, what is the world coming to? Please don't get me wrong. I have absolutely nothing against gays, women, ethnic minorities or young people, provided they conduct themselves like white, heterosexual, conservative men. Is that too much to ask?

As for the EU, health & safety and political correctness, I suppose you'll be telling us next that the Euro straight banana was a myth and that the working at height regs don't really mean a warning sign has to be posted at the base of every mountain in the UK (it must be true, the Daily Mail said so).

Oh God. They said I'd catch it if I stayed here too long. I've got advanced PPRuNitus (or Clarkson-Lee-Potter's Disease) and the virulent Daily Maillitus strain at that.

[flyboy007]

Well, it is the RAF I joined just a couple of years ago. I'm leaving as soon as possible. To all those of you who enjoy it and think it's the best: Good for you guys, I wish I did.

Crash. As a "commander" in the services, do you not think it is reasonable to expect that even the lowest common denominator under your supervision, doesn't pour acid in their eyes, or that we can rely on our inherent good nature to not make inappropriate comments/jokes. And (I haven't done service writing yet) should we step out of line and offend someone, our peers should have the sense to put us straight! Do we need a team of monkey's working around the clock legislating against calling people things we shouldn't call them, or 'training' the thicker of us that acid burns?

Beagle, I will vote Boris J for PM any day of the week. Not sure if a PM with a personality and/or a spine is allowed though.

Cheers, and remember: Health and safety is a darwinian process!

[Mr C Hinecap]

Crash has his reasons for coming back to the threads from Cambridge and in this way - I won't go into them, but it is better he is there - trust me! Good to see you are finally doing something constructive my man.

Some legislation is too much - some not enough. I think it is reasonable to stop bullying (initiation some call it), pollution and make things safer. Politicians rule us and they are civvies, and we work for civvies, and we were and will once again be civvies. So be it. Just make the best of any situation and make it fit best.

Oh - no such thing as a civillian - just Servicemen waiting to join up :E

[Pontius Navigator]

AWIW, I agree one hundred percent about the two year tours. If a jobs is worth doing 'for my promotion' it must be done (but not dusted) before I am posted.

Only after I am posted does the next poor sod have to dust it and see if it works. If it takes 5 years then tough on the guy in the middle.

Had one boss, now dead as he hit a hill in a Herc, he took over as SLOPS after his predecessor, a professional ops officer I was told, had designed the new Ops block. He did not even check the progress of the building as it was not scheduled to be ready before his tourex.

Come the day, under a new Slops, we went in to our brand new building. Briefing room, self-briefing room, coffee bar. Brilliant. Only one snag. No Ops Room. Ops was in a wide corridor between Admin and Comcen.

The new Slops naturally go the credit for my colleague who designed and the carpenter who built an Ops room, two walls, doors, three desks, ops boards, the lot all in two weeks.

And I bet you have been there. This was 20 years ago.

[average pilot]

I joined 23 years ago, no it's not the same Air Force as then but I've enjoyed all of my time. It's like everything else in life, it's what you make it. Maybe I've just been lucky but I haven't felt that I've been "shat on" yet. I like my job and will continue to do it in the company of mates who still give the quality of banter they used to and, more importantly, still do as good and professional a job as they can.
I've only got one life to live, if things were better before I was born or joined then there's not a lot I can do about it! Think I'll just make the most of my own time and enjoy the present before it becomes "the good old days".
I'll start by not wasting any more time at this computer as I don't want to be labled with x thousand posts... I've got better things to do....:mad:

[J.A.F.O.]

Do you ever wish you'd just not asked?

[Tim Mills]

Good thread though, J.A.F.O. Only just seen it, and want to say it was ever thus. Horsham St Faith 1953, sitting in Meatbox on ORP waiting to be scrambled on some exercise or another. Party of MPs including Defence Minister, Duncan Sandys, looking bored, waggled ailerons to amuse them, got scrambled to chase Canberras, or B45s, both of which could go faster than us. Great fun, none the less. Couple of years later, same gentleman says manned aircraft no longer required, and many squadrons disbanded, including the Hunter squadron I had nearly got myself posted to from the staff at Sylt. So ended my only chance to be a fairly fast jet pilot, rather than a pretty slow jet one.

I must admit, I reckon I was in during the best time, lots of aeroplanes, good overseas postings, and all the rest, and wouldn't have missed it for anything. But we still thought it wasn't the same as when we had joined even then, and I imagine that it will always be like that.

[J.A.F.O.]

Thanks Tim, you've probably summed it up there; nostalgia ain't what it used to be. ;)