Cardiff Wales Flying Club (CWFC) Bankrupt

[cwfc_instructor]

Yesterday, Cardiff Wales Flying Club closed it's doors and secured them with a metal bar. A notice was placed in the window saying they had ceased trading. That's the end of my instructing career at Cardiff then:{ Any comments??

[Charlie Zulu]

Just trying to work out which one of the instructors have posted this message.

However yes I'll confirm that Cardiff Wales Flying Club ceased trading yesterday evening (Tuesday 5th October 2004).

Oh well I'll just have to do my flight planning at home before going down to fly (a privately owned aeroplane).

[cwfc_instructor]

Hi CZ. How do you (and the other aircraft owners) propose to access your aircraft. The Fire Station are refusing access at the moment as a few people discovered this morning. It's a long walk from North Side, and there's a very busy road in the middle :\ Also, since CWFC have ceased trading, your CWFC Airside Pass (ID Card) is legally no longer valid. :ugh: Something to think about.

As for who I am - that's what pprune is all about :ok:

[speedbird_heavy]

I bet DB is having a field day down there stopping everyone who owns an aircraft from accessing southside.

I wonder if it will be possible to park private aircraft on stand 1, the north end of taxyway E or even the dissused road between them and access being gained from "Checkpoint Charlie"???

[cwfc_instructor]

Just spoke to a couple of ex-instructors from the Club. Apparently Aero's in Gloucester have already approached the airport to take over the lease. So, we may finally have a professional flying school at Cardiff. Long overdue. I wonder if they'll give me a job :D

[pipertommy]

So its finally happened!JUMPING WAY AHEAD do you think aeros would do commercial training? and where can i fly now ? Swansea any good ? or is it a case of waiting. I was going to start my imc in the next couple of weeks !! what will happen to the aircraft any groups forming?:{

[Somedaymaybe]

whats are we supposed to do, thats those of us who are near completion of PPLs, especially me i have already sat all of my exams and passed and have only around 15hrs left, how frustrating, also i have left some money in my account around £150 what am i to do to get that back???

Regards

SDM:mad: :mad: :mad:

[Charlie Zulu]

Well today I spoke to the airport.

They were having a meeting this afternoon in regards to private owners and groups accessing their aircraft southside.

They have informed us that in the interim our passes are valid and the Security team on the North Side will escort us to southside via airside transport, thus crossing the runway in their care.

Luckily for Air Traffic Control its not too nice a day today. I can see Air Traffic are going to love us soon! More champagne needed to send to Cardiff ATC at christmas time :D

I do feel sorry for the poor instructors at the flying club... it amazes me that it was the CFI's last day yesterday before going to fly nice shiny boeing jets for a living (as far as I could work out).

I too have heard the rumours in regards to Aeros. Not sure how true but it'd be fantastic!!! It'd be great to do my JAA CPL/IR conversion course(s) from an airport I'm so familiar with!!! Oh and I'll be able to rent a twin to keep my multi rating valid if Aeros or another commercial school do get the lease. Whahey. :D

All the best,

Charlie Zulu.

[cwfc_instructor]

whats are we supposed to do, thats those of us who are near completion of PPLs, especially me i have already sat all of my exams and passed and have only around 15hrs left, how frustrating, also i have left some money in my account around £150 what am i to do to get that back???

Do you know any good tunes. If so, i'd whistle them.

Top of the list of people owed woud be the VAT man, the airport and an aircraft leasing company (who just won a court case against the club). All of these are owed in excess of £20,000 each. :uhoh:

Next would be the fuel supplier.

Somewhere further down the line is us poor instructors who haven't been paid for several months.
:mad: :* :mad:

Guess where you are in the list. And you wont be the only member to have lost the money in their account.

Also, we mustn't forget the admin and catering staff who are now unemployed.

[Charlie Zulu]

The moral of the story is...

NEVER EVER pay up front or have an account with major amount of credit at any flight training organisation / school / club.

This isn't the first nor the last club to cease trading.

It is the second one to go bang that I've been a member...

I haven't got a curse, really I don't!!!

[cwfc_instructor]

it amazes me that it was the CFI's last day yesterday before going to fly nice shiny boeing jets for a living (as far as I could work out).

Looking at Companies House Website, it appears that said CFI is the only registered Director of the Company.

Therefore, how long he's known the true financial status of the club could determine whether he gets to fly shiny boeing jets for real, or whether he just gets to dream about it whilst he watches them float past the bars on the window of his prison cell! :ugh:

[Sensible]

Therefore, how long he's known the true financial status of the club could determine whether he gets to fly shiny boeing jets for real, or whether he just gets to dream about it whilst he watches them float past the bars on the window of his prison cell!

Ahh wishful thinking there I think. The sad fact of life is that a company operates at "arms length" away from individuals who are directors and it would only be an obvious and blatant crook who would be brought to book about his/her trading activities.

The reality is; get on with your life, find another job, write off monies owed because the reality is that the folks on the ground who are owed money wont see a penny unless maybe if they paid by credit card then the card provider may well make a refund. and repeat after me NEVER PAY IN ADVANCE FOR FLIGHT TRAINING!

[flower]

I found out about this last night ,I passed on what I knew straight away to ATC. Very few at the airport knew including the Fire Section who did let a couple of people in this morning but they do not have the resources to be expected to police the security gate southside.

A professional Flying School at the Airport would be superb and i hope the rumours are true, they have been circulating a few weeks now and there is a demand for it.

Good luck to everyone involved in the old Club, especially Mel.

Fingers crossed for something good coming out of the shambles it had become.

[Somedaymaybe]

I tell you something that has also really got my goat! about this whole affair, and in my eyes this just adds weight to the unprofessionalism of the CFI and his management of the club.

I and the other members of the club were not even given the courtesy of a phone call or letter from the club explaining that the club would be ceasing trading on said date.

All we got was an email the other week about a EGM to inform of the future plans of the club. Was this a fob off so we would stop asking questions, or will the meeting still go ahead.

The shame is from the time i started there to now, i have had good relationships with the instructors one inparticular, and the way that they were treated by the not to be named CFI was appalling, and through his miss management and lapse attitude, towards the club good people have lost there jobs, and i can only hope that the likes of the instructors and staff Deb's/Mel/PeteW will keep there jobs when or if the club takes on under new hands.

It is these guys that made the club a hit with the members.

In closing MR AM (CFI) i hope you enjoy your new job in your shiny jets, remember those of us who were part of your short step up that ladder, watch out for those snakes on route, cos as the game rules state you may someday have to start at square one!

:ok: :ok:

[traumahawk71]

Its quite amazing how quickly bad news travels. However Im sure that it wont be long before another club starts (watch this space) and this time im sure it will be far better run and organised.

[Re-Heat]

Ahh wishful thinking there I think. The sad fact of life is that a company operates at "arms length" away from individuals who are directors and it would only be an obvious and blatant crook who would be brought to book about his/her trading activities.
That depends entirely upon what the court, liquidator and DTi conclude upon the conduct of the company. For creditors, including staff who are unpaid, the strongest position to be in is together, not disparate, so that together a claim can be made to the court-appointed liquidator. That includes all other parties mentioned who might have claims, and a court can draw up a full list of creditors.

I would be careful as to determine whether he has been forced into liquidation or has volutarily wound up the company - judging by the timing it appears that there is an element of choice on his part as to when he had terminated trading - a gut reaction would be that unless action is taken now, assets may be removed from the company and be out of reach of the creditors. I do not imply that in this case he may be trying to defraud creditors - it is something to be aware of.

The distinction is made between wrongful trading and fraudulent trading - the first being civil offence and the latter being criminal. That is for the court to decide. If the adverse court judgement sent the company to liquidate recently, then it would be less likely to be fraudulent trading to defraud the creditors.

I'd move on as well though, otherwise you could spend ages getting bitter and not moving forward in life! As a creditor among many, your rights are set in statute, and a creditors list will place you in an order of payment: the pro-forma placement was I believe recently changed to place employees higher up that listing than in the past? Perhaps someone else could confirm.

This does is not of course advice - go to a lawyer and accountant to get specific advice in this situation. I have written only a general note on liquidation.

Why didn't you leave when you weren't paid though? I would move at the first instance of that occurring. Best of luck for the future!

[traumahawk71]

Its quite amazing how quickly bad news travels. However Im sure that it wont be long before another club starts (watch this space) and this time im sure it will be far better run and organised.

[pipertommy]

I think everyone should look to the future! This is possibly a blessing for the club (members and staff),IF a new " professional school " moves in and everything starts from scratch such as training c.p.l/ir,a/c,flyouts,club nights ect.But i guess
this is "IF" at the moment ?:ok:

[birdlady]

Hi All

I would just like to say - Im really really really sorry for those who lost money. I had the same with my first flying school - went bankrupt shortly after I did my PPL and a lot of the students lost money and I mean big money. For example, two of the students lost over 30 000 pounds. OUCHHHH. Nothing ever came of it the owners were never brought to justice. :( :( :(

Ciao
BL

[nasib]

flower wrote:

"A professional Flying School at the Airport would be superb and i hope the rumours are true, they have been circulating a few weeks now and there is a demand for it."


And I suppose ATC will cope with all that entails? Holds and approaches at pre booked times and an on demand instrument approach every time an aircraft returns from a training flight?

It was good talking today. Have not heard "the" voice for a long time. Was beginning to suffer withdrawal symptoms!

Nasib

[almighty bruce]

There seems at lot of schools around that the CAA knows are in financial troubles but continues to allow them to take money up front from customers. They turn a blind eye dispite warnings from ex empoyees etc, and do not investigate. Customers do not understand these companies are sailing close to the wind and think if they are approved by the CAA they are above board and it is all legit. It applies also to CPL schools which are meant to prove their financial viability but it is not looked at properly thus destroying peoples dreams.

Cannot this be regulated.... when companies start to fall financially they also start to break safety rules etc....but the CAA just ignores it ...why?

[flower]

Hiya Nasib,
It was good to "see" you also today.
Watch this space regarding Beacon slots it was not an ATC decision to change the rules regarding them but a directive from CWL, CWL however has a policy which allows locally based aircraft to book Beacon Slots.

Stone Cold I would also be careful in making statements which say "never". A very fluid place the aviation world.

[pipertommy]

So i have a ppl and no where to fly now? any ideas? Do you think some party will move in soon,plenty of pilots to provide for if its ran well! (any more rumours to be told)

[TwinAisle]

Couple of thoughts...

Flower is as usual, spot on.

She is right to say that this business is notariously fluid. To all those who are worried that there will be no access to aircraft, no possibility of flying, no school in Cardiff - have a little patience. Things will get better. The airport is NOT opposed to having another club/school at the airport, and is, like NATS at Cardiff, very pro-GA in the main. Beacon slots etc - for Cardiff based aircraft that was never really an issue, as Flower said. And it won't be in the future - have faith. Trust me on this - I know more about what is going on than I can say.

She is also right in saying that the CAA needs to take a far deeper interest in the running of flying clubs. I spend a lot of time professionally dealing with the CAA in Kingsway with regard to airline licensing, and the good people there deal with two prime aims - to protect the reputation of the industry, and to protect consumers' money. It seems strange that the clients I serve cannot take a bean off a member of the public in respect of an airline seat until they are correctly licensed, bonded and have proven the funds are protected, and yet it seems quite OK to take a couple of thou off someone who wants to fly themselves without ANY protection....

Keep the faith, Cardiff people - we'll all be airborne again sooner rather than later.

TA

[pipertommy]

Thats what i wanted to hear! looking forward to a bright future!really enjoy flying out of Cardiff,and i can walk to the club from work,cant do that with Swansea! hope the new one does CPL training:D

[Alex Whittingham]

There is no bond. The closest the CAA gets to financial regulation is a requirement in JAR FCL1 for them to establish the financial security of a commercial flight school.

JAR FCL 1.055 9 (a) A FTO shall satisfy the Authority that sufficient funding is available to conduct training to the approved standards (see IEM No. 2 to JAR–FCL 1.055).

This applies only to commercial FTOs, flight schools that need to be approved for CPL, ATPL or IR, not a recognised school such as Cardiff Wales Flying Club that only does PPLs.

In practice and when it applies this takes the form of a statement from the company's accountant that the most recent accounts have been audited and that the company is, in the accountant's opinion, a going concern.

There is a minor difficulty here because most FTOs fall below the threshold of turnover where auditing is required. The guidelines for the Institute of Chartered Accountants about what an accountant may and may not say are so rigid nowadays that the CAA usually have to accept an alternative statement in the accountant's own words that does not include the word 'audit'.

Apart from the restricted applicability the obvious flaw in the system is that the statement is made up to a year before the events and relies on financial information that is at least a year old, and a lot can change in a year.

[pipertommy]

When things start to move let us know of the good news.I will be watching with much anticipation. Thanks.

[traumahawk71]

A lot of constructive comments are now starting to appear. I too am hoping for a new club to start very soon although I very much doubt it will be aeros. As for the fleet. The club only owns two tommahawks one of which is close to engine expire. Less than 50 hours before repalcement. The rest of the fleet has been hired in from various sources. Good luck to all the staff escpecially Mel, Debs and Pete and of course those poor instructors. But if rumors are correctv then they won't have long to wait before they're back at work for a new club.:cool:

[pipertommy]

Yip just seen G-WARZ take off into the sunset for the last time.But they had trouble starting it .Dont think it wanted to go

[Charlie Zulu]

If I remember rightly it had a flat battery... Or was that G-ETDA? Anyway one of the Warriors had a flat battery and a flight was abandoned earlier this week.

I believe it was G-WARZ which was my favourite Warrior III which I normally only flew if I had to take it down to Bournemouth for maintenance checks - good days out they were!

Yup I usually had the freebie maintenance flights... thank you!! I will miss those for obvious reasons.

[pipertommy]

Hopefully the next lot will bring in some nice a/c to fly! Anyone got any more news/rumours?Gone abit quiet.:8

[pjdj777]

Sorry to hear the news about one of my old clubs, I was at Cardiff Aero too.

Only been in the clubhouse a few times in the past few years but everytime it seemed to have less and less to offer, fewer students, fewer aircraft and fewer people chewing the cud at the bar.

If Aeros goes there it will be great for the airport, I left CWFC to join Aeros after my IR and found them to be very professional.

My thoughts go outto all those who've lost their jobs there, esp Mel.

Regards

[Main Man]

It seems some of the existing committee members have approached the airport with a proposal.

Maybe I am missing something but isn't this a bit like the owners of the Titanic offering a very special deal on her next voyage?

Correct me if I have got the wrong end of the stick!

[traumahawk71]

With response to the Titanic reference. The committee had a very hard task as the club had inheritted most of its debts from previous years and previous committees :mad:. Im sure that those involved in starting a new club will go about it in a professional manor and have a clear idea of what is expected. You have to understand that CWFC was a members club and so it was highly unlikely that someone would come to its rescue since there is no chance of those individuals making a profit. As it stands now who ever sets up a flying club at Cardiff has a great opportunity to make it a success. My preference would be Aeros since the facilities at Cardiff are ideal for Commercial training (has a beacon for IR training that currently only home based aircraft can use for training). I have flown there for many years and have found ATC to be a very helpful bunch especially when it comes to dealing with students on their solo's. Keep up the great work and lets hope that a new club starts before the end of October. :ok:

[pipertommy]

All sounds positive at the moment!looking forward to hearing the announcement next week then .:ok: hope its aeros too!

[Somedaymaybe]

Meetings/Announcements Whens this then??

Are we the members to beleive that we are going to be at last informed of something happening at our club??

SDM:ok: :ok:

[warrior2004]

:confused: such a shame, nice bunch up the club, hope some good will come of all this:confused:

[cwfc_instructor]

Traumahawk71 said:

The committee had a very hard task as the club had inheritted most of its debts from previous years and previous committees . Im sure that those involved in starting a new club will go about it in a professional manor and have a clear idea of what is expected.

I have to disagree.

As for inherited debts, we can argue and argue about that until the cows come home and we will never know the causes of the debts and whether or not they could have been overcome. All I can say is that debts have been handed from committee to committee since the day the club was formed.


However, I think that the evidence shows that "those involved in starting a new club" are certainly far from professional:

They have failed to notify the members that their club has ceased tradng - no letter, no email - please remember that the club is "owned by the members and run for the members" So the majority of the owners do not know that their business is in receivership - appauling in my opinion.

They failed to tell the part time instructors (staff) that they no longer had a job. Infact a part time instructor was outside the club two days ago with his trial lesson and all of their family trying to get in - how embarassing for a professional pilot.


So, what makes you think that members of the current committee will act professionaly if they are sucessful in taking over the club?

And this itself raises the question as to why they were so unprofessional when running the club on behalf of it's members - food for thought there!!

[2close]

Purely out of curiosity, can anyone shed any light on why CWFC went under, if this is appropriate on this forum?

[The Flying Lip]

It's the usual story, unfortunately....

CWFC has always been a members' club, with a committee elected to run the show. Over the years, large debts have built up, which the current committee have worked hard to repay. This summer has been a disaster for the club - the weather in Cardiff has been poor, the number of hours flown has been decimated, and in order to recover the club overheads, the rental costs started to rise - to the point where a Warrior was costing £125 an hour. Result - even fewer hours flown.

The final nail in the coffin was two large bills - one from the airport authority, one from the VAT man - which have proved to be unpayable, I understand. The subject has been explored in more depth on ukga.com and flyer.co.uk, for those who would like more info.

Hopeful that the club (or more likely, the club's successor organisation) can get going asap - and restore the careers of the instructors, and the lovely crowd in the restaurant (Mel, Debs, Alex etc etc)

TFL

[traumahawk71]

Hi I hear Aeros are coming to Cardiff.
Can anyone confirm this:O

[percyville]

Take a flying visit to Shobdon! Or Gliding visit to Shobdon, Talgarth or Usk.

Really glad I took the decision to join HAC! - Wasnt impressed with my exploritary visit to Cwfc.

Flying at HAC is very reasonable, which offset the cost of travelling from Cardiff area and they're very glider pilot friendly.

Having the option to take a caravan up and spend a few days immersed has made the course very expedient. Loads of nice local pubs and restaurants.

Also they own all of their kit outright with lower overheads so little chance of any unexpected demise.

Cheers
Percyville

p.s. Most exciting way to see the Beacons up close is ridge soaring a glider!!!

[Awyrennwr]

Sorry to hear about this.

I bailed out last year after they increased there membership fee's by a ridiculous amount and brought payment forward, so only 3 weeks after joining I was given a huge bill to pay before I was allowed to fly again. I know several others who likewise cut there losses before the inevitable.

I hope aeros do take over it would be great to have a decent flying club on my doorstep. but....

As for commercial training well....

At the moment ATC refuse to take any training flights due to a dispute with TBI over staffing levels since being assigned additional airspace by NATS. That puts any cost effective IR training out of the window. It is extremley unlikley that if aeros move in ATC will allow them traning slots.

percyville - SPOT ON!! I joined HAC after leaving CWFC and have never looked back. Fantastic club and cheaper for me to travel to EGBS than pay CWFC's rates.

[flower]

At the moment ATC refuse to take any training flights due to a dispute with TBI over staffing levels since being assigned additional airspace by NATS. That puts any cost effective IR training out of the window. It is extremely unlikely that if Aeros move in ATC will allow them training slots.


Check your facts before posting ,that is complete and utter nonsense.
Beacon training is available to Aircraft above 5700kgs , Military Aircraft , "EXAM" aircraft and locally based Aircraft. These restrictions were placed upon ATC by the Airport Authority who have every right to decide who trains at their airport.
This decision was not made by ATC and we are certainly not in any dispute whatsoever with TBI over staffing levels or any other matter.

[cwfc_instructor]

For Attention of the Membership of CWFC

It has been passed to me by word of mouth from several sources that the ownership of one of the club's remaining two tomahawks has recently been transferred to a club member in lieu of monies owed to him and his business partner for the hire of another aircraft.

It has also been passed to me by word of mouth that this member and/or his business partner are/were members of the current committee of management.

I do not have factual proof that the above information is true. However, as a member I feel it is important to let as many other members as possible know that this may have taken place.

The persons involved, as committee members and therefore directors of the company, may not have acted legally - again I have no proof of this.

I believe that Cardiff Wales Flying Club Limited is a Company Limited by Guarantee - the guarantors being the membership.

I therefore believe that the members, as guarantors, should decide how the assets of the company are distributed, especially when receivers have apparently not yet been called.

[pipertommy]

Wednesday tomorrow ! As mentioned in a previous rumour this maybe announcement day or is this pure speculation?:confused:

[The Flying Lip]

cwfc_instructor

I really hope you can substantiate what you posted. If true, the Committee of the club may be deemed to have committed an offence - it is NOT for them to decide what happens to the assets of a defunct club, but is instead a role for either the administrators, the receivers or the membership.

Checking the CAA website, for instance, the aircraft in question, G-BTAS, was transferred to a new owner on 23/9/2004 - just a little over a week before the club's doors closed. The new owner is/was not a committee member, but his business partner is/was.

The gentlemen in question were by no means the only people owed money. What about all the others? Under law, I don't believe they are a special case.

I would advise you to make sure that you can prove your allegation - or withdraw your post. You don't have to post your proof - but I would advise, as has happened with the Ormond Beach Aviation thread, where Danny has asked to get names and addresses of those who post, that you drop a line to [email protected]!

TFL

[cwfc_instructor]

The Flying Lip

I did put a lot of "apparently" statements in my post to indicate that there was an element of doubt.

However, on reading your post and reviewing my own, I have edited the post to remove the sarcasm and to pass the information on as it has been given to me.

PP "Rumour" NE mainly deals with "word of mouth".

On this occasion I think it is important that the membership of the club are given as much information as possibe - as a member I have received nothing from the club either in writing or by email.

I have no way of passing information to the other members other than by "word of mouth" or by using a forum - and this one is by far the best!!

Cheers :cool:

[Allanhu]

Thanks for the info cwf_instructor. As a cwfc member, I feel as if I have been screwed. as many other's have been. But what can we do leagaly? We must have substantial proof.

And by the way, tomorrow is Wednesday, the day for GOOD news?????????

[Awyrennwr]

Flower - I appologise;
I must have been mis-informed, but it seems to be what most major FTO's are telling there students when they bring up the point that CDF is a possible IR test route but they can't practice it!!!
(BTW - EXAM callsigns ARE NOT training flights) Yes I know you take EXAM callsigns I was with you as one recently, I also know you take 5.7+, I handle them if required!
It still seems a little odd that managment don't want any training flights, wich for most airports is good source of revenue. Especially airports as quiet as Cardiff.
Didn't the training ban come into force just after the additional airspace allocation???

I agree it would be great to see CPL/IR training again in wales since it stopped at Aberporth.

There is an interesting post on the private flying forum about CWFC, some members trying to find private hire agreements outside of the club to avoid the ever increasing rates. Some possible contacts for those who wish to continue flying out of EGFF.

Best of luck to those who lost out, been there, done that, got the t-shirt, but unfortunately no money. I belive those who lost a considerable amount teamed up to try and form a major creditor.

[thereceiver2004]

hmmmm what a curious state of affairs.

I would like to know the location of the following company assets which "disappeared" the day the club "ceased trading"

1 x hand held GPS receiver (approx £600)
1 x front desk TFT monitor
1 x Secuirty camera surveliance monitor and recording equipment
1 x all in one copier, scanner and printer
various pairs of Ray Bans sunglasses
1 x large PA38 model from the entrance lobby
various pieces of computer software (flight planning, IFR,VFR comms)
1 x digital camera
1 x computer modem (which prevented internet access for a few days prior to shutdown)


all these apparent company owned assets apparently disappeared prior to the receiver appearing at the club today (lets hope the mangement commitee have secured them in a secure place incase vandals wanted to break in and steal them, therby meaning they could be sold by the receiver to pay off creditors etc..)

ALSO

I would like to know why BTAS has been moved from ownership of CWFC back to Mr Lowe 2 weeks prior to the club going bust.. seems a little fishy to me !
surely if Mr Lowe was a creditor, he should be in line with everyone else.


(p.s. i am not making ANY accusations, just as a member and fee payer would like to know where all the expensive items have gone)


also with regards to 4 possible parties interested, i know that one group is made up of previous club members (who just also happen to be management committee members) why were they not concerned at the rate of money being wasted prior to the demise..?? is there something else going on here ????

Today is apparently the day for news.. outside the club.. Mr Antony Mayo has parked his car, meaning he is inside.. probably with the receiver...so some news should come soon.. i hope.
LOTS of questions need to be answered to staff and members

Roll on AERO'S... a professionally run company, not a mickey mouse run boys club.

RC2004

[flower]

The delegated function provided by ATC at Cardiff has been in place for years, the additional delegated function was taken on in July2003. Although there has been a considerable increase in traffic handled it had absolutely nothing to do with ATC that training was by and large cut.
I am not privy as to why TBI changed who could train.

I am very surprised that the Flight Schools are saying it is an ATC issue as all were informed of the changes and the reasons for them.

As I said before ATC and TBI have an excellent working relationship. Beacon Training adds considerably to the ATCOs workload but I have absolutely no problem with handling it.

[warrior2004]

i think the way the staff and members have been treated is a discrace! what about all those students who put money on account just weeks before the club closed? another thing what will happen to all those people who were sold TL`S ????????:*

[The Flying Lip]

Warrior 2004

Unfortunately, that is the way of things.

The club realistically has two ways forward - find someone who is prepared to add enough capital to keep it going, or call in the receivers.

Personally, I believe the latter is the way forward - the cash injection required would be too large to be sensible. Remember that most of the money required would be needed to cover debt, so after injecting large funds, the investor would be left with a business that is still worth less than the cash invested. Not a sensible solution....

In a liquidation situation, an appointed receiver will take a view on what assets the business has (this typically involves debt recovery, asset disposal and asset tracing - so the postings above will be of interest to them) and what the debt is. By way of example, (and this is an example, don't read anything into it) the club has £30K of debtors and assets, and owed £10K to the VAT and £50K in unpaid salaries, deposits, other debts etc - then the receiver will collect the debts and sell the assets (NOTE - it will be up to the receiver to realise assets, NOT the committee or members, and the receiver will take a VERY dim view of strange transfers and missing assets). Typically then, the VAT get their's first - so the remaining £20K will have to satisfy £50K of debt. There may well be certain other items that take priority in this, but assuming that there is no such priority, other debts will be repaid at a rate of 40p in the pound (less the receiver's fees).

In terms of the trial lessons - the CWFC club had taken the wise step of carefully recording and time limiting each sale. For those people who paid with a credit card, they should be able to claim from their card provider (after the liquidation is complete). All the others are in the queue with the other debtors.

If the club does not have enough assets to cover the VAT bill, then there will be no refund of any monies paid. As Charlie Zulu said, and it is WISE advice - DO NOT PAY UP FRONT FOR FLYING.

In terms of communication with the members and staff, no it is not good - but it is unfortunately typical of this situation. If someone has taken the PCs as alleged earlier, I don't see how the club could have contacted us....

thereceiver2004 - some of the items you listed are unlikely to have been club property - photocopiers and the like are usually leased, and I believe that the IT and security equipment was on loan to the club.

TFL

[pipertommy]

Guess we will all find out very shortly!come lets here some good news !":D

[warrior2004]

THE FLYINGLIP
THE PHONES ARE STILL WORKING THEY COULD HAVE AT LEAST INFORMED THE STAFF!!!!!!! THEY NEW WHAT WAS COMEING, DON`T YOU THINK?:confused:

THEFLYINGLIP
AND AS FOR THE MEMBERS!! THERE ARE ALSO PAPER COPIES OF ALL MEMBERS AT THE CLUB, SO A PC WOULD HAVE NOT BEEN NEEDED TO INFORM ANYBODY!!! IF THEY HAD WANTED TO INFORM ANYBODY THEY COULD HAVE........... NO EXCUSES!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[The Flying Lip]

Warrior2004

I am not clear why you post at me in such an aggressive fashion. I, like you I suspect, am just a club member. I am not, and never have been, a committee member. I am not involved with any of the bids that are on the table.

I am just a little better informed than many thanks to my contacts in the industry and the area. I am attempting, via this thread, to pass on some of what I know.

Your points are not very valid. Using the telephone after the club has ceased trading is, in fact, an offence. A business that has ceased trading is not allowed to run up further debt - and telephone charges, electricity, heating etc - come into that category.

To the best of my knowledge, there was not a paper list of members that could have been taken away. The membership list was held electronically, and if the rumours are true, the PC was amongst the first of the things to go.

What you are seeing is typical of a business closure.

TFL

[spitfire747]

The Flying Lip, TheReceiver2004

as a former employee, from what i have heard over the past few months, the security equipment was purchased from a previous commitee member/instructor now 737 pilot for an amusing amount of money.

from memory there was 2 photocopiers in the building which i believe are still there but also an all-in-one photocopier,scanner and printer in the back office. However looking through the front door you can see the nice TFT screen used by Karen has now been replaced by an old monitor and up until close of business of tuesday, the TFT monitor and computer WAS there.


Hope some good news breaks soon.. I am getting hungry :{

[Charlie Zulu]

No worries Spitty, I'll buy you some crisps when we meet up for a couple of drinks later!

Just let me know where to meet you in Cardiff City Centre.

;)

[The Flying Lip]

Friday is the big day for an announcement from CIAL.

Equine Gob Job that.

TFL

[davtom]

Thanks to all for the information here. I started a PPL course with CWFC a couple of months ago; only 3.9 hours logged so far. I'm keen to continue, but I don't want to have to go to Swansea, Bristol or elsewhere to do it; that would be likely to kill my interest.

I feel most sorry for Mike Thompson really; he was a new instructor at the club, had just moved to Cardiff, and I guess now he's out of work. He seemed very good to me!

As I was so new to the club and knew virtually nobody there, forums such as this are my only source of news at the moment, so thanks once again for posting information. It is much appreciated.

David Thomas

[Vortex Thing]

Hey Stop bashing the CFI,

Is it annoying that the clubs gone done the swanny? yes, it is. I for one, like many who are posting instructed at CWFC not that long ago.

I feel sorry for Karen, Nikki, Mel & Debs as they worked hard and made vistors, members and instructors feel happy about flying out of South Side. It was a pleasure to be there and I wish you all the best of luck.

Good luck to AM he worked his a*se of for a long time. Grossly underpaid, grossly understaffed for little reward or thanks from many many people from what I saw. He like many of the other instructors took on roles and liabilites that they knew they frankly shouldn't have to. I've never seen a CFI drive the bowser anywhere else, or stand in a shopping mall selling trial lessons at Xmas.

The committee likewise did a lot for very little. The members decided that they wanted a club and a club is just that.

If you pay for a club u get one if u want a business then u need to get business minded people to run it and pay them for the job. This was offered numerous times by many people in my time there and not accepted because they couldn't afford it!!

The catch 22 if you can't afford to pay someone who can keep ure heads above water then it was already time to refinance or liqidate and start again from the ashes. Isn't that why they have limited companies.

The only schools/clubs that seem to stay above water are those which offer enough training to keep the revenue going, diversify into corporate and air/taxi work, etc.

A club can't really offer that unless it's members are willing to finance the expenditure necessary.

Trial lessons over the Millenium stadium were never going to sustain the outlay of a building or business that size and the committe were saddled with the incompetence of a nameless minority (yet again) that had run the place dry.

The committe inIMHO had been trying and try hard they did to keep that stable door closed when the horse had not only bolted but gone on holiday with the winnings on the equine lottery.

I'm not Welsh and I'm not from Cardiff but everyone I met was kind and helpful in my time there (one notable exception) Let's just hope for the sake of Cardiff avaition that someone arrives bank rolls it properly from the start and puts some air/taxi and CPL, etc work in with it to keep the flow going.

Good luck to the White Building and whoever sails in her next. I do hope that people aren't out of work for too long. I know what that was like and feel for you all.

[warrior2004]

the flying lip
did`nt mean to sound agressive to you personaly, what i meant was i belive they new what was going to happen weeks maybe months before it did, so they would have had time to contact members via letter or telephone before pc went missing. and there are paper copies of every member in the office. and the staff! there`s not that many off them, the cfi would have had all their numbers at hand, some instructors turned up for work the next day, with tl`s waiting outside, just think the way the whole thing has been handled is so wrong :mad:

[TwinAisle]

Wrong, but as TFL said, typical. Most business failures result in some way from senior guys putting their heads in the sand and hoping their problems go away. Have you ever known any major company just announcing that they weren't going to make enough cash, and voluntarily throwing in the towel?

Consequently, when the end comes, it is sudden.

TA

[spitfire747]

Agree with whats been said about the way the staff were treated, a phone call costs almost nothing and takes seconds, as for customers unfortunately they find out the hard way.

As has been discussed the club was run by a committee and as such all committee members were probably aware that the club was going to close on Tuesday, i do not believe AM shut the club on his own without the others knowing..

Various members of the committee have apparently gone to the airport with a package to re-open the flying club.... IF they were successful would they just expect or want the staff to walk back into the building to start up the operations again.. despite the lack of communication beforehand??

I loved my job more than anything i have done before.. I have had emails from my students concerned about their future flight training, exams, records etc.. and in such a professional industry it is somewhat embarrassing to say "i do not know"

begs some thought..:zzz:

[welshwings]

I am one of those poor Instructors now without a job and minus two months flight pay.

Lets hope that CIAL make up their minds soon, as I am keen to get flying again.

I have also been a member of the club for years and the current financial problems that we find ourselves in are not due to any one person or Commitee. As we are all to aware there has been a huge down turn in both GA and Commercial flight training over the passed few years, it is also true that the management/Commitee should have reacted to this sooner and legislated for it, however, we in aviation are devoted optimists and we always hope that the future will be bright.

I would like to let all my fellow staff members how much I have enjoyed working with them, and hope that we may continue to work together in the near future.

WW



:O

[spitfire747]

The news is good and it is imminent...

new club
new shop
new planes
newly refurbished restaurant
newlt refurbished premises

spitty
:D

[TwinAisle]

I can confirm that, spitfire747. CIAL has spoken.

A manifesto for the new owner (peace and blessings be upon him!)

1. Re-employ Mel, Debbie, Karen.
2. Re-employ SOME of the instructors (PM me for suggestions!)
3. Get the place open again asap - I know a source of four very good, very overhauled and very familiar aircraft that the members would love to fly again, especially in their nice shiny new paint jobs.
4. Let the private owners have access to their aircraft asap.

Great to hear this news. Let's all rally behind the new owner and give him the support he deserves! :ok: :ok: :ok:

TA

[Somedaymaybe]

Thank the LORD!! well i would if i was religious!LOL

At last some news, cant wait for it to be 100% confirmed and to get things moving again.

Hopefully this is the end to the white elephant and a bright future lies ahead for us all!

SDM:ok: :ok: :ok: :ok:

[welshwings]

New planes!!!!

Wow that would be great. No more FB may it RIP

Any Idea who is taking over? or is it still hush hush, if not PM me and let me Know.

thanks

WW


:D :p :O :=

[TwinAisle]

Under normal circumstances, I would be delighted to let you know, but I am not 100% sure that all the bidders know yet, so it is right that I hold off until CIAL makes a public announcement I think.

[welshwings]

Roger TA

Just have to wait until tomorrow then.

All sounds great

Lets hope we can all get back to work soon!!!!!!!

Regards


WW:ok:

[spitfire747]

WW
check your PM
Spit

[welshwings]

Spit Check you PM to

WW:=

[pipertommy]

Excellent news !!!!!!!!!:D will be watching this space tomorrow.Glad to hear that the previous staff will be re-employed.What type of a/c? (not that i am to bothered aslong as they fly and are safe)does this mean the rental costs will be back to a flyable cost? slightly less cost per hour,more people fly more members,more money for the new club?

[Allanhu]

I think I need to have lessons again, it's been so long. Believe it or not, I can't wait to see you lot again!!!!! Looking forward to finding out who is going to run it.
I feel as if I have just passed my skill's test again.

[pipertommy]

Guess a few of us will require check outs?if its been over the 28 days rule ? and obviously if we have new a/c to fly! some work for you instructors!

[TwinAisle]

Whoa guys.... No-one has said that staff will be re-employed yet! My manifesto was a wish-list and CERTAINLY NOT a statement of policy... I have no connections with the new owner or his bid...

Let the announcement become official and let the new owners contact us. I can probably safely state that we won't be flying next week, perhaps even next month....

Take a chill pill people! :\

TA

[pipertommy]

We can dream i suppose.Thought the list sounded to good.But you just never know.:ok:

[spitfire747]

Because it will be a new club,I would imagine for insurance reasons, everyone will need to be checked out onto the aeroplanes,including me, which usually consists of a flight of about one hour to include some stalls, a PFL and then an return for a circuit or two. Some difference training will be required for some aeroplanes....

[Allanhu]

I understand what TwinAisle is saying, you should'nt count your chickens until the egg's have hatched, but I can't help being excited at the prospect of a new club at Cardiff.

I have only just passed my skill's test, infact the Monday before they closed the old club. So now, I realy need a club local to me (well, Cardiff is local to Bridgend), with a friendly feeling to it, as was the old club (Mel, Debs, Nicci, and Karen), not forgetting Pete.

So please forgive me for getting excited over it. At the end of the day, we must support the new owner 110%. And realy push the club to a new level. Maybee organise a fly-in????

[TwinAisle]

People are ahead of you Allenhu

www.ukga.com

TA

[spitfire747]

ooo i do love parties :cool:

[Main Man]

The notion that the recent CWFC committee are victims of their inheritance is supported only by those responsible for their being or those who simply know no better.

The recorded facts speak for themselves in that 21 months ago the club had no more than £30K short term but manageable debt and over £200K of net assets on the balance sheet. To move from that to the current £100K of problem debt and zero assets is an impressive achievement.

In other words the club has been nose diving into the abyss at a rate greater than £10K per month since January 2003. This is clearly a different performance to the previous 20 years of the clubs existence as if not it would already have had debts in excess of £2,400,000 at January 2003. Some significant event clearly occurred in January 2003 which appears to be the AGM and the wholesale change of committee.

I doubt it was the current committee's intention but a combination of arrogance supported by extreme business incompetence and sheer inexperience has brought us to where we are now.

It seems that on the way there have been some who have even profited very nicely at the clubs and therefore members expense.

The degree of arrogance of Ex-committee members taking proposals for new GA organisations to the airport simply defies belief. Fortunately the airport have seen these proposals for what they are and politely told them where to stick their offers.

The members should now seek compensation from the club directors at the earliest opportunity.

[7vrnrd]

The reason CWFC had to call in the receivers was an outstanding VAT bill for £30K for the year 2001-2002 please main man explain this because were you not on the committee at that time

[Main Man]

I am afraid you are the victim of a significant amount of spin. The Vat position was fully resolved for all periods prior to January 2003 at this time.

After an earlier extensive Vat investigation by HMC&E which covered the period to which you refer an acceptable settlement was reached. No outstanding Vat debt was left at this time. In addition to the settlement agreement was also reached with HMC&E regarding future Vat treatment of the complex area of trial lessons to which the earlier confusion had arisen.

If a Vat problem has arisen subsequently then I doubt it relates to 2001 - 2002 although I can understand the motives of the current committee in suggesting it does.

In my experience HMC&E are not in the habit of letting unpaid Vat ride 3 years as you and the committee are suggesting they have in this case.

Additionally the previous committee included significant tax expertise which could have been used to good effect in the event of a susequent Vat issue. This expertise was denied to the club as a result of the act of corporate vandalism that took place in January 2003.

On the previous occasion HMC&E's initial claim for £80K was succesfully challenged resulting in a £5K Vat refund to the club. In contrast it sounds like the current committee just rolled over this time.

The records will confirm that since January 2003 at least £100K of additional debt has been created along with the stripping of £200K of net assets.

I can only conclude that you are swallowing the current committee spin because you are one of the now foolish looking lemmings responsible for putting them in place.

[traumahawk71]

Mainman you CLEARLY have no idea about the finanacial situation when the current comittee took over.

If there was nothing to hide why was financial records removed off the computer system. Remember that accounts are a year behind.

How come that there were so many trial lessons outstanding that needed to be flown off. No money in the kitty to pay for these was left behind.

Why was there no engine/aircraft replacement fund set up.

Why had most aircraft been remortgaged so effectively leaving the club with no assests.
How come the bank overdraft was so high
How can you justify the excessive pay given to certain members of the club such as the bowser driver.

Answer these questions and youll find out how the club got into such a financial mess.

:mad: :mad: :mad:

[Main Man]

You are once again the victim of spin. myth and rumour.

The Sage account data was secured offsite and delivered to the club Chairman within 2 days of the AGM.

The club management system which contained detailed transactional data was removed as it was there on a goodwill basis only, that goodwill had been destroyed by the then new committee. The data however was left on the club computer.

The financial situation with the Trial Lessons was not unusual and totally in line with how the club had operated historically. Each trial lesson sold should have been viewed as an asset not a liability as each one was the opportunity to secure a new member for PPL training. If the sale of Trial lessons was such a bad idea why did the current committee try and emulate previous years success at St Davids during Xmas 2003. One of the contributary factors to the clubs failure was precisely that they were unable to achieve the high sales of previous years due to ineptness and hence poor execution.

The overdraft was at about £15K in Jan 2003, this was well within the agreed limit and no big deal for a then £800k a year turnover business.

You forget that throughout the summer of 2002 the club was forced to unexpectedly replace 6 engines for various unconnected reasons.

Almost all of the CWFC fleet were bought on morgages over a 5 year period. Many of these mortgages were paid off on aggresive terms during good times. When the finances came under pressure some of the financing was restructured to help with cashflow. This is normal business practice, even after re-structuring the club still had net assets on the balance sheet of greater than £200K. Mortgages are simply not a problem as they are a managed means of acquiring high value assets in much the same way as most of us purchase our homes.

All club staff were employed on a fare and reasonable wage for the work undertaken. the bowser drivers pay was funded by the margin on fuel sales. This surely was better than having no bowser driver and paying and waiting for fuel from Exec Air after the hard won direct deal was squandered by the current committee.

I can assure you that the clubs accounts and financial processes were much more auditable Pre Jan 2003 than post.

I'm afraid it is you that are have an awareness gap not I.

The real problems that brought he club down have their roots in reduced numbers of members, reduced hours flown, increased costs brought about by the sale of club aircraft the maintenance company and the loss of the fuel franchise.

[traumahawk71]

I am still not totally satisfied with either sides arguement. Perhaps this will be resolved if the Official receiver decides to call in the FRAUD squad. Until then everything is all speculation....

What ever the outcome the result was inevitable and so CWFC is no more.

On a far more positive note I've finally found out who is taking over the club and will be the first to offer my assistance to this person.

Its all very promising although by the sound of it we'll all have a little longer to wait before we can start flying as the first plan of action is to revamp the club house.

Since this is more a business venture than a members club im hoping things will be far better run and looking forward to Flying more upto date aircraft.

Heres to the new club and i look forward to seeing fellow members and hopefully a new batch of members soon.
:ok: :ok: :ok: :ok:

Well done to Alanhu on passing his PPL. (the last person to do so as a CWFC member)

[thereceiver2004]

there were some shady things going on in the past week at the club since the doors were locked.... lets hope if there is anything going on the official receiver finds out and the members get the truth

Goodluck to the new individual(s) in running the club..... look forward to more information being posted here.

:suspect:

[Main Man]

The new organisation will be called the Cardiff Academy of Aviation who's proprietor is Gary Jones.

New shop and brand new fleet of aircraft (Diamond diesels) en-route.

[spitfire747]

well it is not

Aeros
The "reborn" management committee
Air Wales



all will become apparent after CIAL speak.... :bored:

[Main Man]

see above, they have -

The new organisation will be called the Cardiff Academy of Aviation who's proprietor is Gary Jones.

New shop and brand new fleet of aircraft (Diamond diesels) en-route.

[Charlie Zulu]

Yup I'll confirm that as I've just been speaking to bid winner.

The new name will be Cardiff Academy of Aviation.

I know Spitty has had a call from the new owner and a new CFI is on his way (not Spitty!). The new CFI (not from around South Wales) is a very nice guy as I have had the pleasure of meeting and flying with him previously. Spitty might actually know him.

Now the long task of changing the club house to the way the new company would like it can start.

Anyone joining the club requiring airside access will need to have a security background check just like any airport worker here in the UK now. This however is an airport descision and was out of any new owners hands.

Charlie Zulu.

[Main Man]

Any idea on timetable? when will they start trading?

[spitfire747]

now its official....

Gary is the new owner and proprieter of "Cardiff Academy of Aviation"

The work starts ASAP to refurbish and redecorate the existing facilities to include a nice new restarant and catering facilities, new pilot shop.

As has been said a fleet of brand new aeroplanes are on order, one ready now, the others following as they are still being built !
also will be using Robin aircraft, again new aeroplanes.

I can also say, something i am in favour of, when the weather is not good enough to fly, GROUNDSCHOOL will take place meaning no one misses out.

------

Now a FLY-IN on the opening day sounds a good idea.... any chance of CIAL giving free or reduced landing fees for that weekend to show everyone GA friendly they are

Spit :ok:

[pipertommy]

Great news !Nice new a/c ! So will this be a full CPL training establishment? :cool: What will the club be called for short CAA ?

[distaff_beancounter]

BUT - which company or club is bankrupt/in liquidation/in receivership???

I know nothing about CWFC other than what I have been reading on this thread. But, as a nosey accountant/pilot I have just been having a lunchtime potter online to Companies House. I have found the following:-

Cardiff Wales Flying Club - No. 2165059
A company limited by guarantee. (Such companies commonly used by non-profit making clubs)
Only Director: Anthony Geoffrey MAYO
Company Secretary: Cardiff Wales Aviation Services Ltd

Cardiff Wales Aviation Services Ltd - No.3675912
Only Shareholder: Cardiff Wales Flying Club
Only Director: Cardiff Wales Flying Club
Company Secretaries: Anthony Geooffrey MAYO and Sefton Potter (Nominees) Ltd

As of 1300 hr today there is nothing at Companies House to indicate that a receiver or liquidator has been appointed to either company

So, is there any other legal entity involved in this saga?
For instance, is there a seperate members' club with its own legal constitution?

Both of the companies have a register of charges. This basically shows which aircraft are under finance agreements of some sort. I am listing the aircraft registrations & types, in case this is of interest to the club members:-

Cardiff Wales Flying Club:-
G-BSVY PA38-112
G-BTGC PA38-112
G-BPBR PA38-112
G-CPCH PA28-151
G-BRTA PA38-112

Cardiff Wales Aviation Services Ltd
G-OAMY C152
G-OAAL PA38-112
G-OGCA PA28-161
G-BEBU Rockwell Commander 112A
G-BNUY PA38-112
G-BRNJ PA38-112
G-BOBL PA38-112
G-BSVW PA38-112
G-BTAS PA38-112

I have downloaded various info from Companies House on these two companies, and I will endeavour to dig out answers to anything else that Ppruners want to know, so long as it is on public record.

Good luck to all at pilots & instructors at Cardiff & I hope that a new school does takeover.

[traumahawk71]

Great news about Gary Jones forming a new club. Who would be the best person to contact should there be any budding instructors around looking to join C.A.A.

As to the above thread listing registered aircraft sadly the list is far from upto date.

Only two aircraft remained in a flying state G-BTAS and G -CWFB (although very few hours left on engine). G-BNUY is lying in a heap somewhere after failing it Star annual and again had engine problems. A a number of others had been written off due to damage or neglect. The remaining few had been sold off years ago and re registered.

Its worth noting that most of this had occured well before the current committee had taken over so I would suggest that Main Mans estimate of 200K assests was rather misleading. Its also worth pointing out that those aircraft which did remain were all close to having Star annuals (very costly affair).

Does suggest that previous committee left just in time when grass appeared so green but with all these hidden things to come.

Perhaps Main Man could explain how on the hand over of club to new committee many of the old committee didn't turn up (one of which was spotted in a local pub shortly after meeting) and the accountant seemed very sheepish when going through the accounts. Its quite amazing how figures can be presented to show a rosey picture.
And as for the vast amount of trial lesson left over, these were not assets only debts as anyone who was interested in learning to fly would not wait over a year to use them. (Think about that one).
Me thinks that perhaps Main Man was of the old regime.
Bring in the Fraud Squad so that the real picture can emerge.

[Main Man]

TH 71 - You talk as if the previous committee and management did some sort of runner from CWFC. This of course could not be further from the truth. The fact of the matter is they were exited as result of a vicious and vindictive campaign engineered by a small minorty of vandals ultimately supported by a bunch of now foolish looking lemmings that bought and continue to buy their story.

During the course of the campaign key individuals roles were made increasingly difficult to the extent that much damage was done to the club on the way.

Eventually the resilient officers of the club who were subjected to abuse and attack on a regular basis concluded that the pain did not really equate to what was for most a voluntary and for others an optional position.

Lets not forget the celebrations that took place after the 2003 AGM at the success of the campaign having exited the old committee. The talk was of the bright new future for the club and how it had been given back to the members. I heard no accusations then of the committee and management having done a moonlight flit. This is something that is being spun now to help hide the magnitude of failure of the current committee.

Nothing was hidden, everything was open. The management accounts were produced right up to December 2002. Those seeking to take over the club knew exactly what to expect. The fact of the matter is they thought they could do better and have been proven wrong.

You talk as if the fact that some of the aircraft needing star annuals was part of some conspiracy by the former committee. Clearly it was not but this is typical of the spin put about by the current now failed committee.

By January 2003 things were starting to get tough but the club at that time had a whole range of options available to it which had they been exercised correctly would have secured the clubs future. Sadly the new committee through a combination of inexperience and incompetence took the wrong options and squandered the right ones.

The result is the mess we have today.

Looking to the future it is absoloutely right that CWFC be replaced by a business which is what CAA is. I have long since concluded that a members club is not the right basis for a GA organisation. The recent experience of CWFC has proven that for some reason GA attracts a certain mind set which will if given the opportunity set out to wreck anything that can legitimately claim to be successful.

I wish CAA every success for the future.

[pipertommy]

Diamond have a flight test in todays pilot magazine for Diamond katana would this be the new 2 seat trainer/tourer for CAA ? (issue 20 June 2002) Also a link to Diamond a/c www.diamondair.co.uk Very Nice!:) or is this completely the wrong a/c?

[Charlie Zulu]

No, the aircraft choice will be as follows.

Diamond DA40 TDI x 5 (probably five)
Robin 2120T x 2

I've been flying one of the Cardiff Academy of Aviations Robins for the last few months. A very nice aeroplane and together with the other Robin will mean two aircraft that are less than two years old from the start of the business.

The Diamond DA40 TDI aircraft are a fantastic four seat touring aeroplane which can be put to use in a training role as well, there is at least one or two schools around the country that are putting them to use in this role.

Gary Jones and I were very impressed with the DA40 TDI that we have both test flown. I'm waiting for the call to go up to Gamston to test fly the Diamond DA42 Twinstar. :D

So to sum up, in future student pilots at Cardiff Academy of Aviation will be learning to fly on one of the newest aircraft fleets for a flying school in the country.

Best wishes,

Charlie Zulu.

[pipertommy]

EXCELLENT!!!!!!!!!!!!!:ok:

[Somedaymaybe]

Looks Good, Charlie Zulu i know you may have already been asked, however when can we expect the new club to open its doors for training?

and will the training rates of the aircraft remain the same or are we looking at a slight increase for flying these bad boys?

Cheers

SDM:D

[pipertommy]

Hope there is `nt a increase in rental costs! This stopped alot of old club members flying out of Cardiff,as the prices increased the flights dropped.Hard to go anywhere unless you are very wealthy?

[thereceiver2004]

WR

How is this possible, Gary only found out on Friday.... to run a flight training school you need approval from the CAA who, for a new setup, will inspect the aircraft, tech logs, douments and facilities..

I believe from what has been said, Gary receives the keys tomorrow and then has to deal with all the CWFC stuff inside, gut and redecorate the place, bring in the new aeroplanes, CFI, Instructors and staff.

Realistically could be the 18th November in all honesty.. don't you agree

RC2004

[Charlie Zulu]

Sounds more likely to me BUT he does have a very experienced CFI who may have already been sorting out the approval from the CAA.

All that I know is tomorrow the work starts to refurbish the club, ahem Academy House. :D

Tomorrow is the 18th if I remember correctly.

[flower]

Would be good if private owners are allowed access Airside through the White Building as soon as possible.

Fingers crossed for a successful operation, I know of at least three forums planning Fly Ins to celebrate the new venture.

[traumahawk71]

I can't wait to see the revamped club and it'll be certainly a good thing to be able to fly the new aircraft. Realistically its not the decoration of the place that will cause the hold up but of course the delivery of the aircraft.
Charlie Zulu mentioned that one is already there any idea on when the others will arrive.
Im sure that there will be initially a large amount of people wanting to the test drive these ac.
Another hold up will be the fact that diesel ac require a difference check to be carried out so a bit more of a delay.
Novemeber sounds a more realistic time scale to me.
Hope to see Mel and Debs back cos somethings cant be changed. Where else can you go to get those tempting bacon sandwhiches.:ok:

[Charlie Zulu]

From the Bacon Sandwich comment above, I believe Traumahawk71 has worked out who I am if he didn't know already. Yup believe I've now worked out which one of the instructors you are. (At last!).

Anyway the two Robins are at Gloucester waiting to be brought back to Cardiff. So that'll be two aircraft this week.

The first Diamond DA40 TDI is at Gamston ready to be delivered but Henrick (Demonstration Pilot) is away until the middle of this week so should be sometime after he gets back.

The other four Diamond DA40 TDIs are due in February (they aren't even on the Production Line yet).

Anyway Traumahawk71, I didn't think you were fussed at all about the new Diamonds. In fact I remember quite clearly that you are quite opposed to such aircraft for primary PPL training? Or did I take your views the wrong way? ;)

Best wishes,

Charlie Zulu.

PS. I totally agree about Mel and Debbs bacon sandwiches! I've had withdrawal symptoms already and its not been a fortnight yet! :D

[7vrnrd]

Main Man
In one of your postings you noted The overdraft was at about £15K in Jan 2003.To my recollection in the previous 2 months the club sold 1000 trial flights some 1hour some 1/2 hour with a total revenue of some £110K given that the bank balance was £15K in the red in Jan where do you supose the other £95K went to?

[Main Man]

You conveniently over state the gross revenue and certainly the net revenues from aviator package sales were far less.

At the point of handover the current account was actually in the black and most short term debt had been settled up in full.

Prior to this the peak overdraft was about £15K against a £20K facility.

All revenue and costs were fully accounted for and are available for inspection.

Are you suggesting that a fraud has occured? if so I an others would appreciate some clarity rather than just a veiled accusation.

Some time back AM was formally invited to stop making such accusations or call in the fraud squad if he was convinced one had occurred. Needless to say he did not call in the fraud squad. but sadly many seem to feel the need to keep making the hollow accusations.

[Where's_my_2grand? !]

distaff_beancounter

You seem to be very well informed and I beg you for your help and advice in this matter. Myself and many of my new found flying friends were encouraged to deposit several thousands of pounds into the now defunct CWFC during the weeks leading up to the recent bankruptcy of the club.

We are all about to meet with a solicitor and discuss a plan of action especially as Tomahawk G-BTAS and other club assets were transferred in the eleventh hour.

A.M. (CFI/MANAGER) has now gone off to fly a 737 which we all yearn to do, but we wouldn’t close the door on our mates in the process as he has done (but now he has no mates at all) What an absolute Barstourd!!!!!

I’ve read all sorts of Krap on here and listened to A.M. M.L. K.H. etc.. but at the end of the day I now don’t believe any of what they have been saying, they are all a bunch of deceitful little rats.

A.M. convinced me recently to deposit two bloody grand into my flying account, telling me that I could now have cheaper flying, knowing that he was closing the doors in favour of his big shiny jet.

PLEASE, PLEASE help me! How can I get my money back? I’m trying to fund a career in aviation and every penny counts, that Barstourd has stolen my dreams!

traumahawk71 “Bring in the Fraud Squad so that the real picture can emerge.” Well, Well, Well. Would you believe that the new owner of our Tomahawk is VERY, VERY closely associated with the fraud squad, so they probably won’t get involved in this obvious fraud…….GOT IT!!!!

Yep, you guessed right, he’s a copper!! So there’s no chance of an official investigation into this MINOR 20K FRAUD! Or is that why it was threatened on this forum? GO AHEAD Barstourds!

Just out of interest, what about the CWFC Officials(s) who illegally transferred this club asset(s) to ML, aren’t they also responsible and exposed to possible legal action? What we don’t know of course is whether or not they too are members of the protected elite POLICE FORCE!

Here’s hoping for true justice.

7vrnrd, why are you trying to divert the wrong doings of today with monotonous fabrication of events from two years ago? Good try but we’re not happy and won’t allow the new committee/managers to hide away! Oh, and why have we not seen any accounts for nearly two years? And tell me exactly what the committee has achieved for CWFC during the past two years?

I too wish the new owner of the White building good luck, he needs it!

[distaff_beancounter]

Where's_my_2Grand

As I said I know nothing about CWFC other than what I have read on Prune. But over the years that I have been involved in General Aviation, I have seen many FTOs both, large & small, go bust, leaving students out of pocket.

In nearly all cases when an FTO goes bust, it is a limited company & a liquidator is appointed. A liquidator is legally obliged to look into the actions of the directors in the period prior to the insolvency. Therefore all creditors, which includes students who have paid deposits, can make thier complaints to the liquidator. A liquidator would certainly look into any sales of assets just prior to the insolvency to see if they were made at under value or to connected persons.

So, if anything serious has occured, in certain cicumstances the directors can be surcharged. This means that the directors have to pay money to the liquidator which goes into the funds available to the creditors.

In the case of CWFC it appears that there are two limited companies, with just one individual director between them. But from the posts on this thread, I get the impression that the companies' affairs were being run by a club committee. Even if this was so, the rules for running limited companies still apply.

It appears that accounts were prepared & audited. Most paperwork at Companies House seems correct & up to date. Except the accounts for Cardiff Wales Aviation Services Ltd for Year Ended 31st March 2003 are overdue for filing at Companies House. As regards the register of charges, it appears that the director forgot to send in 'memorandum of satisfaction' in respect of loans on aircraft that had been paid off, or for aircraft sold. All the loans that I listed in my previous post are currently shown as still outstanding.

If there are any creditors who feel hard done by, then their best course of action would be to get a liquidator appointed to both companies as soon as possible. The simplest way of doing this is to ask the director (or committee?) to take the route of a 'creditors voluntary liquidation'. Otherwise the creditors would have to make an application to the High Court for a winding up order.

If you feel strongly about this, I would suggest that you talk to any other creditors that you know of, and decide whether you want to get together to take any further action.

Please bear in mind that even if you do get a liquidator appointed, there is still no guarantee that you will get any money back. This is because in a liquidation the proceeds from the sale of assets is distributed in an order set out in the Insolvency Act. It is broadly as follows:-
-- Liquidators fees & expenses
-- Secured creditors, which is usually banks and finance companies who have lent money to the company against a charge registered at Companies House
-- Prefential creditors - such as employees for unpaid wages, Customs & Excise for VAT, Inland Revenue for PAYE/NIC
-- Unsecured creditors, including students who have paid deposits

In this case, it may well be that no money trickles down as far as to the unsecured creditors. So while you may feel agrieved & wish to take action, you still may not get any money back.

[Allanhu]

Called in on the club today. Gary is realy going to town. Cleared upstairs, and in the proccess of re-painting.

Nice to have seen you today traumahawk71. Keep in touch.

[traumahawk71]

Hi Spitfire 747 how's it going how about a chat on the Matrix?

[spitfire747]

Traumahawk

Youve lost me... :confused:

[Charlie Zulu]

When you coming back to Cardiff Spitty?

By the way if you find out then let me know what this "Matrix" thing is, sounds good... ??? :confused:

[welshwings]

Hi Spitty

Got your bags packed for the valleys again?

hope to see you soon at EGFF

WW:ok:

[spitfire747]

I have no idea what this matrix thing is TRAUMAHAWK is talking about...

yes my bags will be packed when i get the nod... :)

[Allanhu]

Can't waite to see you back Spity!!!!!

[Charlie Zulu]

Allan,

If you're on here then I'll see you at the new academy house at 10:30am if you still want to go flying in the pup! :D

Charlie Zulu.

[traumahawk71]

Hi Spitfire747 Did you work out how to enter the Matrix?

Watch out for the white rabbit????

Why not try it now!

[cwfc_instructor]

:O Good News!!

Private Owners - You can now access your aircraft through the White Building

There is a small administration charge of £300 per annum to allow you the honour of walking through the Academy.

If you fly once a month that's only £25 per visit :ok:

But don't worry - the car park's free, at the moment ;)

For a group of 4 that's only £1200 pa :*


:( Bad News!!

I had to have an interview with the new CFI to get my old job back.
My services are no longer required :{

[Main Man]

I don't think many of the private owners will be too impressed. with that, after all they have been used to being subsidised by the hard done by students for a long time now. :sad:

On the other hand for those requiring access more than 3 times a month it is the best deal on the airfield at the moment. ;)

Sorry to hear about the job, you could try Swansea :{

[traumahawk71]

Hi CWFC.instructor.

I've sent a message in your reply box. Do you read it

Sorry to hear about your job situation:sad:

Suspect that its out with the old and in with the new?

[cwfc_instructor]

Well I think it's time to move on now.


Shame I'm not as fortunate as the ex-CFI

Wish I could walk away from it all and go and play with shiny Boeings :*

[traumahawk71]

CWFC.instructor

Im sure that day will come sooner than you think. If you start saving now perhaps you'll one day be able to afford to join the new CAA and even try out a steak.

Like Main Man said theres always Swansea. Who knows you might even meet a few of your old students who can't afford to join.

Lets hope they don't price themselves out of the Market cos that is what happened to CWFC last year. The probably lost around half thier students and i'd hate to think how many PPLs.

[Charlie Zulu]

So are these rumours true about the £300 a year joining fee?

That is outragous just to get access to privately owned aeroplanes!!!

By the way main man says the private owners have been subsidised by hard done by students. How do you work that one out? Even though I fly a privately owned aircraft I, as well as all of the other private owner / group flyers paid the same £300 last October for membership as everyone else did.

Previous to that there was a reduced membership fee, but the EGM last year put pay to that.

I can see a mass walk out by private members in due course...

[traumahawk71]

Wow these rumours don't half spread.

Wonder if everyone will have to pay for their security passes from the airport as well.

No wonder not so many people can afford to fly on a regular basis when you have to fork out so much dosh to start off with.

I hear that Mel, and Debs aren't in the running for the Cafe jobs either. Now that will be a real shame cos it was always good to see them eagerly awaiting to take my order..... :ok:

[Main Man]

Well prior to that you all had it very good for a long time at £30 per year. Even then a number of the private owners aligned themselves with the now succesful destroy CWFC campaign. If only they had the forsight to see what it would cost them in the end.

£300 is a reasonable commercial fee for access through his business premises. Interesting that some people still describe CAA as a club on here, very soon they will realise that the club has gone for good and that the market forces of supply and demand now rule.

Gary has obviously quickly assessed the business benefit of giving private members subsidised access Via his lease and concluded there is none.

[Main Man]

A clean sweep is what is called for, top to bottom with nothing left untouched.

Still don't understand how he can commence training next week, what about all those procedures that need writing?

[Somedaymaybe]

"A clean sweep is what is called for, top to bottom with nothing left untouched."

Well MAIN MAN you say a clean sweep, it seems that having this attitude and sweeping technique has cost them students and instructors.

To be honest i am in limbo at the moment as its not really clear what the hell is going on over there!

Are we the students allowed to go and see the club and chat to the CFI or do we have to wait until we start seeing activity over there, will the students have to pay £300 mebership as appose to the £130 or whathever it was originally.

Wish something was put in officially!! from what i can gather from friends they are losing students by the day to other clubs!

Seems to me that the CFI is trying hard to get rid of the CWFC name but in all honesty it seems he is just painting over the cracks and not filling them in, and eventually the cracks will break through!

SDM:ok:

[distaff_beancounter]

I had to have an interview with the new CFI to get my old job back.
cwfc_instructor - I would suggest that you, and your fellow workers, look at the DTI Employment Relations - Employment rights on Transfers of Undertakings (TUPE)

DTI-tupe (http://www.dti.gov.uk/er/individual/tupe-pl699.htm)

Perhaps the new owner has overlooked these regulations.

[Charlie Zulu]

From the site you gave a link to:

---- Start Quote ----
The Regulations preserve employees' terms and conditions when a business or undertaking, or part of one, is transferred to a new employer. Any provision of any agreement (whether a contract of employment or not) is void so far as it would exclude or limit the rights granted under the Regulations.

The Regulations have the effect that:

Employees employed by the previous employer when the undertaking changes hands automatically become employees of the new employer on the same terms and conditions. It is as if their contracts of employment had originally been made with the new employer. Thus employees' continuity of employment is preserved, as are their terms and conditions of employment under their contracts of employment (except for certain occupational pension rights).

Representatives of employees affected have a right to be informed about the transfer. They must also be consulted about any measures which the old or new employer envisages taking concerning affected employees.
---- End Quote ----

I can see where you are coming from but this isn't a clear case of when one employer has taken over an existing company.

The other company has ceased trading, has it not? Therefore this new company has a clean slate?

To try and crush some of these rumours, I'm going to go and speak to Gary today and ask about membership, fee for cards (if any) etc.

I am not defending him here, but the problem Gary has, as far as I can see, is that there isn't a list of membership details in the club or from anyone. The nearest he will have is the email list but that only includes a few dozen of us.

We are all welcome to visit the place and talk to the CFI, I was there all day yesterday, except when I was flying. John Davies (the new CFI) is a very pleasant chap.

[valleyman]

SDM I've had enough too, so I'm off over the bridge to aeros at filton, just called them, it's £50 membership so I'm getting an extra 2 1/2 hours flying per year :O

It ssems that quite a few ex CWFC pilots/students are already there :ok:

[Sensible]

distaff_b: If the previous undertaking has folded and a new company has started then TUPE doesn't apply. TUPE only applies when an undertaking has been transferred ie; the EXISTING business is sold or transferred. In this instance it APPEARS that the EXISTING business has folded and a NEW business has started.

In all honesty, it is best to forget about the old club, the new one is the ONLY one now. It's hard to swallow but true, there is virtually no possibility of there being any sort of investigation into the affairs of the old club and about no chance at all of ever getting any advance payments back. The fact is that a liquidator will be appointed to tidy up the remnants. Those who had jobs with the old set up can try for re-employment although they have no rights to employment. Generally, life will go on and some people will have learned lessons. The PPRuNe advice again stands as good as ever - "Don't pay up front " Sad but true!

[distaff_beancounter]

Charlie Zulu & Sensible

Firstly I should make it clear that I am an accountant and not a solicitor.

CWFC did cease trading, but it has not gone into receivership or liquidation. If it had gone into liquidation, then, as I understand it, there is a greater chance of TUPE not applying.

Purely from what I have read on this thread, another company or person(s) has taken over a substantial part of the assets, premises, business and customers of CWFC.

From my experience, TUPE may apply in these circumstances. But I say 'may' rather than 'will'.

Please bear in mind, the whole concept of TUPE came about, specifically to stop the situation whereby one business ceased, a 'Phoenix' business started shortly afterwards, but all the employees were left high and dry and jobless. It is now fairly difficult to structure such a new business in a way that does avoid TUPE applying.

That is about the extent of my knowledge/experience of TUPE.

So, where is the 'Flying Lawyer' when we need him?

[spitfire747]

TUPE

surely this only refers to employees... all of us instructors at CWFC were self employed "contractors" and can make no such claims anyway..

Spit

[Ludwig]

Spitfire747, that may not be the case. There was recently an Inland Revenue and Employment Tribunal decision on the case of a self employed flying instructor, in which the two outfits disagreed on whether the individual in question was employed or self employed, and so they ended up being treated differently by different Government bodies. It might be that you think you were self employed but with a bit of spade-work, you may find that you were not. (Taxation :PubTolley Publishing Vol 153 Page 547 26 August 2005)

I suspect that the real issue is as has already been covered, has the new outfit taken over the other, or is it a totally unconnected set-up. If it is the latter, I suspect you have nothing. Just because a business with a similar trade occupies the building of a previous company does not mean they are connected or that one has taken over the other.

Strange but true:confused:

[daw]

Re TUPE - Of course the risk could be that you argue that you were an employee and hence TUPE applied and then the revenue comes chasing for all the PAYE and NI that it didn't manage to collect plus any penalties and of course the reversal of any expenses that you might have deducted in the course of your self employment. Best to seek some proper advice before you potentially shoot yourself in the foot.

[Ludwig]

Daw, not necessarily, as PAYE operation is the employer’s responsibility. The employer might well be expected to pay over the PAYE they did not collect. As you say though, get some good advice.

[traumahawk71]

May i suggest that the CAA is a new company.
I say this cos the building was leased from the airport so did not belong to CWFC.
No aircraft changed hands as CAA is purchasing new aircraft.

Whether CAA will be able to retain any of the old PPL and students is another matter.
High on most peoples agenda is cost and of course quality of training provided. It all depends on whether CAA higher instructors who have lots of experience or decide to take on only new low houred guys thus saving some money but not gaining the exeperience the students deserve.

You may have shiny new aircraft to fly but this will not guarentee you a PPL pass. :\

[valleyman]

your right TH71 - Companies House shows a new co registered on 19/10/04 number 05263501 in the name of c.a.of a.

at £300 pa this has got to be about the dearest club locally I know god knows what the hire rates will be:{

[cwfc_instructor]

From a verbal phone call with a solicitor friend:

TUPE will probably apply. Because:

1. CAA has taken over the premises of a "solvent" company. It is apparently irrelevant whether or not the premises are owned or rented, or by who.

2. CAA will have to be registered with the same business classification as the old CWFC - ie a Flying School

3. CAA is targeting the same customers and providing the same services as CWFC.

4. CAA is already providing access to aircraft owners on production of a CWFC ID Card - confirmation of its intentions.

5. CAA is employing staff with the same skills and qualifications as CWFC to undertake the same tasks and provide the same services.

6. There has not been a noticable period of time between CWFC moving out and CAA moving in, nor have the membership been notified of CWFC's demise.


Regarding Employment / Self Employment:

This is apparently quite easy. Basically if you provide the services for which you are being paid to only one person or organisation, then technically you are employed by that person or organisation. However if you provide these services to more than one person or organisation then you can be either employed or self-employed, or even both.



I intend to declare all of my earnings to the Inland Revenue when the time comes. Even a full time instructor would hardly earn enough to be seriously affected by income tax. I already make NI contributions so by being considered as employed I will probably not be any worse off.

However, the Inland Revenue will have lost out because they would not have received the employers contributions under the PAYE scheme for the period of my employment. This is the responsibility of the employer not the employee. I will be protected even more by the fact that I have not been given nor have I signed a contract of employment with CWFC.

I hope this information, although only advisory and not yet proven, will help secure future employment for us all. That, of course, is if we wish to be employed by CAA.

[Allanhu]

Hay traumahawk71, maybe I will meet you on the Matrix soon.
Allanhu.

Worrior2004,

Thank you for your PM.

Allanhu

[The Flying Lip]

One of my colleagues has been making enquiries about CAA. Some of her thoughts and analysis.....

1. The White Building has been stripped bare. All items belonging to the former club, and paid for by the members and their successive committees, have been removed.

This raises a few questions. If CWFC went into liquidation, then the receivers will have removed the items, and will be investigating the recent disposal of some club assets - not least of which G-BTAS, which the CAA website shows was reregistered about a week before CWFC closed the doors. No receiver seems to have been appointed. OR - CWFC have sold the items to someone (perhaps CAA?) - but they did this then without the permission of the membership - CWFC was a members' club. OR CAA has assumed ownership. Which I don't think is right. Where is Flying Lawyer?

QUESTION: What has happened to CWFC's assets?

2. It would appear that CAA is not intending to employ any of the employees of CWFC. That will go down like a rat sandwich with the CWFC membership, and will be a major hurdle to overcome.

A former employee of CWFC has been recruited to run the reception. His reputation precedes him.

QUESTION: Why have the CWFC employees been treated so poorly, and does TUPE apply?

3. Membership of CAA will be £300 year one, then £100 subsequently. Rental will be in the region of £130 for the DA40 and £110 for the Robins. This applies to all members, including the private owners, who are ALREADY paying CIAL for the parking and landing fees of their aircraft. Aeros in Gloucester and Filton are charging their members £40-50. Many, many people will be taking the Aeros/SWS routes; I would guess CAA will be looking at less than 50 members.

QUESTION: Is CAA working to drive members away?

4. Access to aircraft will be limited, apparently, to CAA opening hours. Outside these hours, its Execair for us all, boys and girls. At FURTHER cost. So kiss goodbye to your trips to Ireland, France, the Channel Islands etc, unless you are prepared to stay overnight there, or hurry back. Oh, and kiss goodbye to keeping your night quals current as well.

QUESTION: Why does CAA want to dispose of private owners?

5. Whilst the CAA seems to have a very competent and affable new CFI, why does the owner seem not to want to build a relationship with the former CWFC members, who are by definition his target CAA members - no emails, nothing?

Mind you - if CAA is a new business, and they use the information stored on the CWFC systems - including mailing lists - I think that the Data Protection people will want a word. However - there WERE paper copies of the records (as I've found out, correcting my previous post).

QUESTION: If CAA needs to attract members - as presumably it must - why is it going to such lengths to alienate its potential members?


I hate to be the ghost at the feast here. But this is NOT, MOST DEFINATELY NOT, the way ahead for GA at Cardiff.

We don't want a fancy restaurant (who the hell will go to eat a steak overlooking the hangar, the car park and the foundations of the old hangar?). We don't want expensive aircraft that, according to some website reviews are not ideal for training and have debatable support. What we DO want is access to our aircraft, or acceptable hire aircraft, for reasonable hours, and at a reasonable cost.

If the airport wants to kill of GA at Cardiff - which personally I doubt - they have done the job. Killing GA will have VERY serious ramifications for NATS, the fire service and the reputation of the airport.

I'll give them six months tops. Not worth paying the membership for. Forms to apply are apparently appearing from next Monday. Little round filing cabinet beckons for many of them, including mine.

TFL

[daw]

Ludwig - I thought that the IR had a fallback position where if they couldn't claim PAYE/NI etc from companies then they could pursue individuals instead. Then it would be down to the individual to try and get the money back that they would have had to pay the IR?

Certainly seems a strange way to go about building up a new flying school alienating potential customers with exhorbitant fees. If someone has access to the old list of members I would suggest getting a petition together and voicing your concerns and putting this new bloke on warning. Maybe he just got his business plan totally wrong and needs a wake up call? Those prices are what we would expect to pay around London.

[PPRuNe Radar]

Killing GA will have VERY serious ramifications for NATS

Why ??


(PS I support the sustenance of GA in the UK, just can't see what you're getting at in respect of an impact on NATS)

[flower]

I believe this may be to do with runway movements. The runway movements have dropped significantly within the last 2 years so significantly that it may push the banding of the unit down to band 1. Regardless of the fact the radar unit handles 4 times the runway movements everyday at least, often more we are unfortunately judged on runway movements not the actual task we do.
It would be desperately unfair on us to be dropped down yet another grade because of all the loss of runway movements.
Hearing from private owners and previous club members that they will all be moving away from CWL if what is rumoured is true, we simply cannot afford to lose any more runway movements ( the loss has been in excess of 20K movements a year since the club started running itself into the ground)

[Somedaymaybe]

Well i have finally had enough I contacted Aeros this morning at Filton and i am seriously looking at going over there.

There is know way that i am paying £300 and then if the prices are correct £140 to rent a Diamond aircraft.

Aeros can offer me £50 membership and a further £110 for a Cherokee or Warrior, and professional flight training.

Its such a shame but at the end of the day i am looking out in my best interest and CAA £2000 loss is Aeros Gain.

The biggest mistake they have made over there is to stick with this attitude of out with the old and in with the new. Cardiff Wales had some of the most freindly and professional trainers/ staff going and if they are kept away from the new club just because they were once associated with the old club then be prepared GJ to lose the students who they taught and taught well!!

This could be me saying goodbye CAA and Hello AEROS

Over and Out

SDM :* :* :*

[Main Man]

A clean sweep is essential if CAA is to avoid inheriting a lot of the problems that ultimately killed CWFC. A simple re-branding using the same employees and members will merely serve to saddle CAA with much of the CWFC baggage of the last few years.

Already some of the attitudes that helped to see off the club are being expressed on this thread. Ultimately CAA will be subjected to the time served market forces of supply and demand.

Who knows, a more expensive and hence exclusive service may well be attractive to some. If its not then CAA will be forced to re-think. The last thing it should do at this stage is be influenced by those who think they know better, we all know what that did to CWFC.

It seems to me that there are many out there who are once again expecting to get something for nothing. One of the issues for CWFC was the outright rejection by the members (including the current committee) of any increase in membership or flying rates for over 8 years. Ultimately rates had to go into catch up which proved too little too late.

The rates proposed by CAA seem quite reasonable for good facilities and new aircraft. The problem with CWFC was it was trying to achieve similar rates for crap facilities and planes.

[The Flying Lip]

Main Man

I agree with your argument but not with your conclusions.

A clean sweep could well be essential - but any new club/business at Cardiff is going to HAVE to attract many of the members that were at CWFC. There is no way that CAA will be able to find x hundred members in the area who are brand new to flying. Consequently, a clean sweep is just not going to happen.

I still go back to my original questions:

* What has happened to CWFC's assets?

* Why have the CWFC employees been treated so poorly, and does TUPE apply?

* Is CAA working to drive members away?

* Why does CAA want to dispose of private owners?

* If CAA needs to attract members - as presumably it must - why is it going to such lengths to alienate its potential members?

As for your argument about rates - yes, the rates probably were held too low for too long - but then you start talking about market forces? What happened when the rates were raised last year - the membership dropped by 60%, many went to Aeros and Gloucester. It is all very well to say the rates are too low, but if you raise them and the market raises two fingers at you, you really need to re-evaluate your product. I think from a PPL viewpoint, Cardiff has gone from one extreme to another - from pretty poor aircraft to very nice (although unsuitable IMHO) aircraft; what the PPLs at Cardiff want is merely good aircraft. We are going from clapped out Fiestas to new BMW 5-series, when all we really want is two year old Astras.... and Astras is all most of the membership want to pay for, especially when the Vauxhall dealers in Swansea, Gloucester and Filton are doing Astras for less, with a lower charge to get into the showroom...

...and their showrooms may be open longer as well...

TFL

[cwfc_instructor]

TFL,

What assets??

All that was left was 2 tomahawks:

1 has a duff engine - value £5k max.

We all know what happened to the other one!

Are there any other assets worth talking about?

[The Flying Lip]

Yes.

What about :

The GPS in the cabinet
The raybans in the cabinet
The pilot supplies in the back office
The computers
The security equipment
The software
The fridges
The freezers
The cookers
The remaining food and drink
The large antique propellor behind the bar
The pool table
The television
The printers
The headsets
The radios
The photocopiers
The pass printer
The flight simulator
The manuals
The remaining stationery
The furniture
The cash register
The cash in the register
The cash in the cash boxes downstairs

There is a good argument for saying that the Tomahawk in question should not have been taken as well.... and the other one is there, and the plastic model (!)

Someone needs to answer the question - where has this stuff gone??

TFL

[spitfire747]

without naming any names...

i guess give it a week and look on EBAY..

at the very least if the person is in possession of the above could sell them all, all the members could go out for a slap up portion of local fish and chips...:mad:

anyone on now go into the matrix chat room
Spit

[seenitallbefore]

main man re clean sweep


do not forget main man, the staff in admin and cafe (nicci karen mel & debs) were only workers there and were not part of cwfc committee or its downfall. if thats the case and you want a clean sweep as TFL says then gary jones needs to find all new members and not CWFC MEMBERS otherwise its not a clean sweep

[traumahawk71]

I see that the CWFC going bankrupt has finally reached the South Wales Echo. (thursdays edition)

Seems strange that Gary Jones is quoted as he knew nothing about the old clubs situation and that he bid for the lease and heypresto CAA.

How come the ex CFI has been seen around the club and that him and GJ actually know each other quite well.
Makes me wonder how Gary would have known nothing about this situation.
Add to this the fact that a new CFI was found almost immediatley and that he hopes to be up and running in a few weeks it seems pretty impressive feat not knowing anything was amiss.

The plot thickens.:E

[Main Man]

Sadly some of those you choose to name did not entirely keep out of the club politics in the past. Aside from that CAA has the basic right to decide who it employs and it is astonishing that some on this thread are already trying to dictate terms to this new startup.

Those who choose to join CAA should do so as fee paying Joe Public consumers, they should not be flaunting the dubious status of "Ex CWFC" member with an expectation of some sort of special privilege. The fact of the matter is CAA owes CWFC members and former employees nothing.

Market forces will dictate the composition and scale of the new membership as well as the fees.

I think you'd be surprised how many are prepared to pay for the 5 series quality and reliability.

[Charlie Zulu]

Granted, but I for one aren't paying £300 to be able to access a privately owned aircraft in oooh business hours only.

There is no point in keeping night current or anything just to be back a long time before 6pm in the evening when the doors close.

No way.

The path is clearing towards Aeros in Gloucester...

:D

[wonder6969]

Do you think GJ is also reading all these comments?

[traumahawk71]

Hi Charlie Zulu

So whats happen with your Buddy then? At least that what it initially seemed..

Has he lost the plot or is he pretending to be the guy in the film Brewsters Millions. Do remember that one where the Guy has to loose $30,000,000 in a month. Well on the way to achieving that if current opinion is anything to go by.

Wonder what will happen if aircraft owners have to pay the full CAA membership. Will they perhaps start pulling out of the airport and site else where. Perhaps that strip by newport will start having a booming trade.

[Charlie Zulu]

I doubt that he is reading these threads unless...

Over on ukga.com the new company secretary for Cardiff Academy of Aviation, Damian Evans, has made a statement within the Cardiff GA thread.

Doesn't answer many questions but its better than nothing. So maybe he is reading this thread on PPRUNE as well.

For those of you who were CWFC members, I'm sure you have heard the name Damian Evans before... maybe you could find him in the office behind reception now and again? ;)

The airport must get involved with this, indeed I am sure that many a private owner are not happy at all in regards to the situation.

[Charlie Zulu]

Yup you've got it in one Terrahawk. :D

I'm going to echo your post above, so will probably not bother to type much more in terms of that with the exception of correcting you... isn't it Damian Evans who has been hired? The Damian you mention above is a friend of mine and I'm not using the friend word lightly in this case. :D ;)

However I am going to respond in regards to your previous question in a post a little earlier in terms of what has happened to my buddy...

Glad to hear that one of the reception staff has got her old job back elsewhere, I'm just hoping for the best in regards to Mel, Debs, Nikki, etc.

Mel and Debs were really the life and soul behind upstairs. Without them is, well I don't know. Who's going to make the bacon sandwiches now? Oh dear, I forgot its going to be a posh steak house so we wouldn't be up there much anyway.

Lets get one thing clear. I only know Gary because the former CFI asked if I could pair up with him whilst he got used to the UK airspace and got a bit more confidence in himself to go off on his own. But I was only a passenger as he was a fully licenced PPL lacking a little bit of confidence in regards to flying in the UK.

Over the couple of months that I was flying with him (as a favour for Tony as he was too busy to fly with him himself) I did get to fly his Robin a few times.

However it was only because he needed to fly off as many of those fifty hours remaining before the annual was due that he threw me his keys and said because I'm doing this as a favour he would return it and as long as I put fuel in it then I could use the aeroplane.

But that is as far as I know him really, ie flying together and down at the club and even then I didn't know him that well.

I really do hope the old and not so old familiar faces of the restaurant / cafe staff and instructors are back at the white building. It would be a very sad day *if* I were to join and they weren't around. I probably would feel as though I had wasted my membership fee on just a plain plastic card to allow me to gain airside.

Best wishes,

Charlie Zulu.

[seenitallbefore]

the plot thickens the caa are not employing old cwfc staff main man backs this as seen in previous posts . caa needs to make a clean sweep he says. we hear that lee may be taken on ,we now hear that a mr damian evans now is involved with caa, another person involved with cwfc. this is the guy that was hired to sought out the tax bills such as the vat which as been said was the demise of the club. oh and this is the gary jones that was very friendly with the cfi of cwfc perhaps the next name we will see thats invovled with the academy will be a MR AM.

[spitfire747]

Lee - re-employed
Damian - re-employed

Lets hope Gary will soon realise that Mel, Debs, Karen also also the regular faces of Jen one other i cannot remeber name (sorry)
made the club a club, there would always be members sitting upstairs talking about anything and everything..

Mels bacon sarnies were, simply the best..

bring them back


Spit:mad:

[Charlie Zulu]

Spitty,

I think you mean Mel's daughter... I can't remember her name either.

Unless you meant the other lady on reception, Nikki.

By the way "Hear Hear"!!!

Charlie Zulu.

[spitfire747]

yes mels daughter but for the life of me i cannot remember her name.. i can see her face..she made me a niec apple crumble last sunday i was there..mmmm or was it debs that made it.. either way both should be back

[flower]

Mel and her colleagues were the lifeblood of the Flying Club, they made everyone feel welcome, the food was yummy. If they are sensible they will bring back them as it will instantly attract former members to come to the club,

[cptkinz]

My understanding of TUPE is that when an exisiting business takes over the business interest then TUPE applies. As CWFC is insolvent then there is no transfer of business at all, in other words TUPE does not apply. Cardiff Academy of Aviation is an entriely new venture, it must be stressed that Cardiff Academy of Aviation have not purchased any business undertaking of CWFC.

not sure about members property, however the clubs assets will more than likley be sold by the insolvency practice to recoup the losses for the creditors. It may be that Cardiff Academy of Aviation have purchased these assets themselves or are storing them for those who have purchased them.

You should really speak to the Insolvency Practice instead of making assumptions as this can often cause people to get the wrong idea.

[cptkinz]

You should all be careful about what you say on these forums. Accusing people etc

Daniel Standon used to work at CWFC as the bookkeeper, so maybe that is the person you are referring to about texting etc Damian Evans worked as a consultant on a set assignment for CWFC for a limited period only. He was never an employee. You should be aware of these facts before making statements on line that are clearly not true. The work undertaken made considerable savings for CWFC tax bill - can't disclose too much due to client confidentiality unless any committee member would like to contact him directly to give there authority to do so via this forum. As far as I am aware, the committee voluntarily wound up the company and not any particular creditor. Therefore to state it is due to the tax due is wholly incorrect. Again people should check their facts first.

Copies of this thread will be stored on my system and viewed periodically. I do hope that you bear in mind that such words may be taken as slander. Advice to bear with CAA and wait for some information about what is happening as opposed to making your own assumptions.

We understand that some of you may be upset by the demise of CWFC but that is in the past. The immediate future is ensuring that GA is maintained at Cardiff and at present, the conduit to do so is Cardiff Academy of Aviation. If you have the interestes of GA at heart, then you will give them a chance.

[valley_boy1]

Maybe Mel should set up a butty wagon in the carpark :-) I for one would travel down, but the you all know just how partial I am for one of her bacon butties.....On a more serious note, main man - I don't really understand how you can come on here suggesting that
The notion that the recent CWFC committee are victims of their inheritance is supported only by those responsible for their being or those who simply know no better.

When you are one of the people who were thrown off the previous comittee and should know how bad things really were (but maybe not - after all, the boss told NOBODY what was really going on). I also wonder why your website, www.cardiffwalesflyingclub.com
which was designed to damage the club over the last couple of years, is still going. Surely, Mark - you have got exactly what you wanted. The club went bankrupt, and most people have lost their jobs. Cheers. :* :yuk:

By the way, for anybody viewing that site, Main man, Bobo and Piper are all the same person - surprisingly heartily agreeing with each other.:suspect:

[cwfc_instructor]

Valley Boy.

I never knew www.cardiffwalesflyingclub.com existed.


However, please can you tell me the purpose of www.cwfc-unofficial.co.uk which was set up and run by the current committee of CWFC??

I eagerly await your reply.

[valley_boy1]

cwfc_instructor, can you please check your link - I have clicked on it, and all I get is "page cannot be displayed"

[Main Man]

Valley_Boy - you do appear to have enjoyed more than your fair share of Mel's bacon butty's in your time, as a doctor I can assure you the forced abstinence wont do you any harm at all.

So are you saying now it was an open discussion forum that saw off CWFC? - yet another interesting theory from one of the now foolish looking lemmings who supported DW & RT in their evil campaign.

We'll add this to the list of some of your accomplices failure theories that have already been published on this thread including that it was -

a) A Vat bill relating to 2001 - 2002
b) The airport rent bill
c) The fuel bill
d) The previous committee having stolen all the money
e) All of the above
f) None of the above
g) Some of the above

Oh and while we're on it did the previous committee do a runner as suggested by TH or were they thrown off as you now suggest.

There is nothing like taking accountability for failure and believe me this is nothing like taking accountability. The current committee have had the best part of 2 years to move things forward and have squandered the opportunity, an apology to the members wouldn't go amiss.

Less than a year ago and having had plenty of time to get their feet under the table the committee went to the membership with a plan that they said would "secure the future of the club". The plan was implemented and still the club failed, I think the members who responded to the call have a right to know what changed between then & now.

Incidentally I am told that the alias's you mention are not one and the same, you have simply theorised this and applied the same pre-publication quality control that we have now come to enjoy from you and your now very foolish looking associates.

[traumahawk71]

Wow some ones really rattled Main Mans Cage.
Is it because for the last two years you've no longer been the MAIN MAN.

You haven't really answered how you viewed trial lessons as assets as i pointed out anyone interested in flying would take the first opportunity they had not wait for a year.

Oh yeah recently the ex club was receiving trail lesson vouchers bought from Hyper Value at £25 for half an hour flight. The very old type vouchers. How did Hyper Value get these vouchers and where were the records for them.

Why did the club subscribe to renting a phone system capable of handling a medium size office (not money well spent there perhaps) especially since the lease was to remain for a number of years.

What did happen to all the aircraft.
Why was the Warrior totally canabalised and left.
There was also a number of tommahawks in the old hanger that had been canablaised one had been stripped down and left it had only had about 4,500 hours use so the frame was of excellent standard.

Surely when fixing aircraft you should be buying new stuff to replace broken parts not stripping off other aircraft. No wonder the fleet got into such a state.
And you say that the fleet was well maintained. This sort of thing only happens when you cannot afford to replace parts.

There are lots of other things that were also inherited but you convienently forgot to mention.... :mad:

Once the current committee took over members money was still wasted on things such as computerisation and flash EXPENSIVE software. this meant that an IT specialist was required from time to time (not cheap if you look at the going rates). Why was it necessary after all the only important things to members was flying. Again maintanence was not a high priorty and things were not readily replaced but patched up until they finally could be patched up no more. Aircraft were left lying on the Apron with tech problems thus not generating any cash. Aircraft were flown but bills not paid in time, so it came as no suprise when the club finally went under. There was a last gasp as some aircraft were hired in and so the members for a brief time were treated to style. Unfortunately Debts continued to increase and it was all too late to reverse the slide of the club.

At the end of the day it is clear that both parties led to the demises of CWFC in some shape or form.

To run a business you need motivation namely Profit and a memeber run club can't provide this for individuals. Its only when you've got lots too loose that you produce your best.

Gary Jones has the opportunity now to run a business and make a profit so lets wish him well and hope that GA will continue at Cardiff for a long time.:ok:

[Main Man]

TH 71

Simple really, trial lessons were assets because each one was a potential source of £4000 - £5000 revenue for the club but only if the effort was put in to convert the opportunity.

Aside from this the stats showed that about 20% of trial lessons were never flown at all, amazing but true; Xmas aviator package revenue along with January membership fee revenue was a great source of cashflow during the cash starved winter months; at £80 for 30 Mins there was more margin than the equivalent dual rate even after deduction of sales commission and packaging costs.

I'm struggling to spot the negative here. The fact that some were sold through Hypervalue is something the club was very grateful for at the time, where is the crime that you seem to be implying here. The records were completed and thoroughly audited at the time.

Borrowing parts from other planes going into the winter simply made good cashflow sense at the time.

If I compare the performance of the 2 committees I see one with 7 years of compound growth and growing balance sheet and another that frittered it all away in less than 20 months

We at least agree that a members club with a committee is not a sound basis for a GA organisation, especially if said committee is going to be constrained on every single decision.

I wish CAA well but I sense that some of the attitudes that killed CWFC are already starting to come into play and may well pose a big risk to the new organisation.

[spitfire747]

It's inevitable that things change when an organisation that is a club ceases and a new business takes over.. some may think change is bad.. others change is good.. no one is right or wrong..

Gary is putting alot of time and effort and personal fortune into what he believes will be a viable, healthy and fun place to fly and socialise.

Until CAA is open no one is really qualified to make judgements, as it is all based on rumour and here say..

I wish Gary good luck, he is securing GA in Cardiff for the forseeable future in one guise or another.

We have already heard rumours that the rental rates will be virtually the same as CWFC, which is very reasonable to my local field here in Hampshire, where solo rental for a 18yr old PA28-161 is nearly 145.00 per hour.... ouch !

:sad:


p.s. i hope it succeeds cos i want my job back !

[oddyfish]

main man

as an accountant I'd like to advise you that trial lessons are liabilities and not assets.

You've taken the cash and at some point in the future you have to provide a service , that is, you have to honour a trial lesson. Therefore you have to provide for the cost that will be incurred. This simple accrual concept was never adopted by CWFC - by my knowledge wasn't even adopted in the financial statements,

Now the last CWFC committee had to honour considerable trial lessons even though the cash had been spent by the previous committee.

To state they ruined the club is wholly incorrect. Yes things could have been done differently but hindsight is a wonderful science isn't it. Simply the last committee of CWFC were left with a legacy of mounting problems that were not evidenced within the accounts.

Remember that CWFC did not have to produce a cash flow statement as per the Companys Act 1985 (1989) although for a members club this should have been of paraount importance so members could see where exactly the money was being spent. Just because you make a profit doesn't mean you have cash in the bank.



There were bad trading conditions in the last year, The last committee did work at resolving the problems with some degree of success - although not enough evidently. However as mentioned the legacy of the previous committees actions did result in a debt burden that was just far too great to overcome.

All in all a shame but now Cardiff has a new Academy and if you all want GA to succeed then you should stop all this petty bickering and politics and accept that times have changed, those who had control previously carry no further influence other than they can help ensure GA survives at Cardiff by backing this new venture.

After reading these posts I do wonder if the majority on here really want GA at Cardiff, they just appear to be after furthering there own agenda.

Kind Regards

Oddyfish

[cwfc_instructor]

oddyfish, you say:
you should stop all this petty bickering
What a comment to make after 4 paragraphs of bickering! Hypocrite.



You also say:
After reading these posts I do wonder if the majority on here really want GA at Cardiff
It's not that the majority on here dont want GA at Cardiff. The fact is the "new" GA at Cardiff doesn't want the majority of us!

[oddyfish]

FAO CWFC_Instructor

I imagine CAA want everyone who wants to be involved to be involed, if you know what I mean. Give them a chance.

As for the bickering, you may think it is hypocritical, I thought it was observation based on fact. I've not actually bickered with anyone. You may notice main man has not responded, hardly a conversation then is it. Even if he does I'll not respond, I've posted what I had to say, it is based on fact (not fiction) so there is nothing else to add.

Bickering is something like "we done this you did that"; "we're not responsible you are" etc etc.

I merely pointed out that the demise of the club was not down to one particualr committee or person, just a series of events lead by poor management and decision making over a long period of time

At least you have to give CAA a chance. Gary Jones has put his money where his mouth is and is investing a lot of time and effort, probably more so than any other committee member previously. Now only one personhas control maybe the important business decisions will be made and quickly to the benefit of us all.

In an ideal world it would be the best scenario if we could all forget what has gone on in the past and support this new venture and look to the future. You're criticising CAA yet know nothing about what they are offering as of yet - hardly giving them a chance to show you what they can offer.

Perhaps some peoples ego's have been too badly bruised in all of this so they will always hold a grudge. Shame.

Anyway, I for one will be supporting this new venture entirely, I just wish everyone felt the same.

As for you personally, hope you find employment soon, maybe if you supported this new venture rather than critiscised it then an employment offer may have been forthcoming.

I can't speak for this new venture but they are hardly likely to employ persons who are against them.

Anyway, enough of this, I'll keep viewing as i usually do but I've posted as much as I'm going to.

toodlepip

Oddyfish

[Astylishmonk]

Have to say this bickering is all really sad.

I joined the club at Christmas last year, being really keen to get my PPL. What I got for the following six months or so was being poorly treated by my instructor (late/not there/forgot etc) and thoroughly fed up with how I was treated generally.

I made my choice and decided not to go anymore.

The club closes its doors. No great suprise there - If I felt it was not treating me well, I guess many others felt the same.

What has happened is in the past, and that as they say is a different country - they do things differently there.

It really does not matter who has done what or taken what or whatever for that matter.

There is only one operator in Cardiff for now, not two and not the ones that operated in the past.

If I were GJ, I would think what the heck am I doing getting involved in all this.

It is GJ's money - he can spend it how he spends it, be that a brasserie or a pole dancing club. We have a choice, to go or go somewhere else.

For all of those that feel the need to post something negative/unhelpful/derogatory, consider whether this is going to help GA at Cardiff or not before you post.

If you really are that bitter just go somewhere else and the best of luck to you.

Personally, I look forward to when we get further information (soon I hope) and start flying again.

Good luck to the new management.:ok:

[The Flying Lip]

I'm not going to get bogged down in the Committee X versus Committee Y debate on here. I don't know enough about it, and I suspect that is true about most of the posters on this thread.

However.

One thing that is abundantly clear from the bickering that has beset the club in the last three years or so, is that it needed to be closed off. If I were in charge at CAA, I would act quickly to ensure that the CWFC members are informed of what happened to their club's assets and effects. I appreciate that CAA may not be in a position to do this, since a receiver may or may not be involved somewhere - but I would highly recommend that they ask any other parties that may have the knowledge to produce a schedule of assets etc for the CWFC members so that this particular running sore is cured once and for all, and does not go on to poison the CAA.

The key debate on this thread should be how GA at Cardiff is to be encouraged. If that is not the case, I for one think CIAL should be a little more honest and tell people - including CAA!

The biggest issue for CAA is going to be, like it or not, how it treats private owners. Cardiff has over 20 private aircraft, attached to over 60 people. Some of these aircraft have been on the field for over a quarter of a century, and they pay CIAL directly every month for their landing and parking. These owners have happily paid CWFC for membership and access to their aircraft and supported the various clubs with their patronage.

Now, the situation is changing. Private owners, in common with all CAA members, are being asked to find £300 for first year membership, and an undisclosed sum for future years. For this 100% increase in fees (justified by CAA by the investment in new aircraft and facilities that in the main the owners won't use) they are going to get Office Hours Only access to their aircraft. Outside these hours, Execair are suggested. Execair have not been consulted on this, and are not really geared up to handling PA28s - and this would mean YET MORE expense for the private owners.

To any private owners who are thinking of paying for this - please think again. You own an aircraft so that, within reason, you can fly when you want to, and are not beholden to a club's rules and hire availability.

I know of NO private owners who are intending to pay for this shoddy treatment.

All the private owners are asking for is a little consideration. What is so wrong with granting them their own facility - even a portacabin - with access to the airfield (as at SOOO many other airfields) and let CAA get on with the job of training people?

For all those who say these rates are market forces at work, I say - to have market forces, you must have a market. If CAA is to be the sole provider at Cardiff for all GA, no market exists.

It is just despicable to treat people like this. Several owners have already tried to discuss this with CAA to be met with varying degrees of rudeness. The owner of CAA and CIAL are simply saying "cough up for a reduced service or sod off".

This is not an acceptable position, and can only be to the detriment of GA at Cardiff. Are we to be in a position where a new PPL does his training at CAA, is trained well and professionally, and then the day he finds the cash to buy a share, is invited to go elsewhere if he wants to fly out of office hours? I do hope not.

There is a lot of anger out there right now, people. CIAL would do well to remember the lessons of Southampton, as would CAA.

TFL

PS: "It's not that the majority on here dont want GA at Cardiff. The fact is the "new" GA at Cardiff doesn't want the majority of us!"

It seems that is the case...

[spitfire747]

I am sure this is rumour about office 9-5 access for aircraft owners.. perhaps everyone should calm down until another "official" statement is made.. from Gary or Damien

surelay CAA should not be the bad guys here, i know of NO OTHER airport of reasonable size, where aircraft owners are only able to access there planes through a flying club... perhaps you should all be banging at CIAL.... after all Southside has access to the apron from the fire station, CAA and the place next door, as well as a padlocked gate. If people pay rent etc.. to CIAL then surely they are entitled to complete access courtesy of CIAL. seems logical to me... but correct me if I am wrong..

Exeter has a manned security entry point for all GA
Bournemouth has various club access points and security access for private GA
Southampton has a padlocked gate for access, old private GA had a key
Shoreham has access thourgh all schools and various padlocked gates


all it perhaps needs from CIAL is a swipe system on a gate, to gain immediate access to ramp, using a swipe card THEY supply....

any thoughts ?

[The Flying Lip]

CAA will only be the bad guys Spit if they refuse to consider the issues of private owners. CIAL may well be the villain of the piece here. Either way, they need to sort this out, if they are not to send a VERY powerful anti-GA message out.

[spitfire747]

do you think a separate gate with swipe facilities using cards supplied by CIAL would be a good idea, this means the members then DO NOT HAVE TO pay or use CAA if they choose not to

[The Flying Lip]

Yes. Absolutely and unequivocably yes.

[pipertommy]

Hi spit,i have heard rumours that the security on southside is to be changed, developments at the entry point to fire station,and possibly due to a certain airline moving southside.There would be access to maintenance centre ect.Could the club get in on this, to include access for G.A also?:hmm:

[The Flying Lip]

I have it on good authority that Aeros in Gloucester and Filton are offering FREE membership to former CWFC members until the end of the year! After that, £50 a year. Sounds like a great deal to me!

Another thought - anyone seen Page 107 of the November edition of Flyer Magazine? Are these the same aircraft that are lined up for Cardiff?

Of the two promised Robins, I understand that one of them is already in service with another Gloucester based flying club.... has anyone told the Cotswold Flying Club that they are going to be losing it yet?

Or are they??

TFL

[spitfire747]

I also have heard that Swansea is offering free membership until December then 70 per year afterwards

[The Flying Lip]

And another thing.... if the CWFC lease was, as seems very likely, taken over with some sort of "debt recovery/bond" by the CAA... then TUPE must surely apply.

Former employees, see your legal people!

[davtom]

I've seen the web site for Aeros. I haven't found a web site for any school in Swansea. Is there one, or is it just a matter of popping down to the airport to see them?

[Charlie Zulu]

It is £60 a year at Swansea, or that is what someone else has been quoted from the club.

I have it on very good authority that the application forms are readily available from Cardiff Academy of Aviation. However they require the payment of £300 for the first years membership up front before they release the form.

At the moment the access for private owners is "in business hours only" and there are no concrete plans for or against twenty four hour access.

I'm off to Aero's or Swansea. I'm leaning more towards Aero's (probably a better idea for me as I'm going commercial).

[The Flying Lip]

CZ is correct. I can't read my own notes. It is £60 pa at SWS.

[flower]

We have formally been advised that access is available at the Club between the hours of 0900 to 1800. Outside of those hours access and parking is with Signature on Stand 1.

[thereceiver2004]

seen the new CAA website...

http://www.cardiffacademyofaviation.co.uk/

QUOTE:

Security
Access to the general public will be limited to the shop and café bar (trial lesson students and their families will be granted a day pass to access the restaurant and bar facilities).

All student, flying and private members will be required to complete a security clearance form (link) to obtain their swipe card allowing airside access. Airside access cannot be granted per Cardiff International Airport regulations until all necessary security clearance is received.

24 hour access for members is being considered.


CAA employs a highly qualified full time Chief Flying Instructor, John Davies, plus xx flight instructors.

Practical Tuition
From 1 st December, we will offer half hour and hour lesson slots in either the brand new 2 seater Robin or 4 seater Diamond aircraft.

All instructors are highly qualified with many years flight experience.

Ratings initially offered will include PPL, IMC and night rating.


:{

so i guess thats why CAA is not taking on any or the previous flight instructors let alone any of the other staff that made the club a friendly place to be....

[The Flying Lip]

That wasn't there long.... it says "site under construction" for me!

TFL

[thereceiver2004]

it was there last night, hence i got the quote from it.

perhaps it is now offline until it is completed

[traumahawk71]

That CAA website wasn't there long. Lets hope the club lasts a lot longer than that attempt. :O

But on a serious note I read the site yesterday and it seemed ok. Was unable to get a breakdown of the fleet of aircraft and there was no details about the instructors although it did say they were very experienced. They must intend paying them pretty well if they are looking for instructors with years of expereince. Wouldn't imagine there are that many around who would fit that requirement and are willing to move.
It mentioned a few good things such as eventually getting a simulator so that students would be able to use that in wet weather and that there would be series of lectures for the PPL exams which is very useful for us learning to fly.

Membership was listed at £300 and then dropping to £100 in 2006 :E

[spitfire747]

instructors with years of expereince

Do you fit that bill Traumahawk !!

[jantra]

people - the website was pulled down becasue it is not quite the finished article.

we were not expecting the domain name to be made public - when the site is finished I'll post on here and you can have a good look then. We'll have forums on there so you will be able to express your opinions direclty with the knowledge that it will be read daily by the management.

Thanls for the wrods of encouragemnt so far from those who have posted on here. The finished site will be a whole lot better.

Kind Regards

Jantra

[Somedaymaybe]

Hi all,

I contacted aeros again this morning to finalise some arrangements for continuing my training and i can indeed confirm that they are offering free membership to all ex CWFC students.

I think this is a nice gesture on there part for us all.

I am going to Filton so if anyone else has gone over there send me a PM and let me know how you are getting on.

SDM:D :D

[thereceiver2004]

jantra

Sorry for letting everyone know.. I just thought if they could see what was on there it would stop alot of the uncertainty and rumours

Look forward to the official nod

:{

[jantra]

TR2004

no problem, it was only a test and the feedback received was quite encouraging. we are working hard to get it finshed - it should hold all the information on there to answer most questions and quell all rumours

toodlepip

Jantra

[Charlie Zulu]

The site is still there...

You just have to get to a sub page first as they have only pulled the index page from the site.

;)

[pipertommy]

Did they state the cost of a/c rental ?Could handle £300 if the cost of rental was with monthly time buliding budget!

[Charlie Zulu]

http://www.cardiffacademyofaviation.co.uk/pricing.htm

From the above you can see (although its still in the development stage) that the prices look as though they will be thus:

Robin @ £100 Per Hour Solo
Diamond @ £129 Per Hour Solo

By the way if they don't want anyone to look at the site whilst its being built then why don't they just setup a test HTTP server in house running whatever they need on it like PHP, SQL etc??? Its easy enough to do, even my laptop and desktop run server software.

[spitfire747]

why don't they just setup a test HTTP server in house running whatever they need on it like PHP, SQL etc??? Its easy enough to do, even my laptop and desktop run server software.

CZ
Speak English boyo

:D :D :D

[The Flying Lip]

Made perfect sense to me...

WYSIWYG

[Allanhu]

Charlie Zulu,

Read PM.

Allanhu

[Stall-Warner]

I am absolutely amazed at the amount of apparent condemnation of Gary Jones' proposal to charge for club membership as he deems necessary. Surely those involved in GA appreciate the costs associated with establishing a club which will have longevity of tenure and provide a stable base for growth and expansion...I do not for a moment imagine you wish to find yourselves collectively in the same position as you did with CFWC in 12 months time??

I suggest you collectively direct your energies to ensure he and the Academy succeeds in the coming crucial weeks and months.

SW

[Astylishmonk]

I am with you SW - very disappointed to see so much negativity and back-biting.

I guess everyone else can do it so much better. Makes you wonder why they didn't do it themselves, doesn't it?

[Allanhu]

This is a message taken off the CWFC forum page.......


Hi fellow Members,

As your newest recruit and full of Canadian enthusiasm Im placing another message....

Are You fed Up? Well of course you are... Your little flying club has gone Belly Up... Big Deal.

Now's the time to show initiative, grab the bull by the horns and do something about it.

Let me tell you a Story... Back in the days not to long after Orville and Wilbur, the members of the Cambrian Flying Club were getting a little fed up that after paying there tuition fee's to learn to fly Terrahawks, and being promised time and time again that a suitable touring acft was on its way they to got a little fed up. A group got together and formed the Private Flying Group. I can see their faces now. Dave Howell's, Mike Flynn, Neil Hazell, Mike Shoukris, Tony Williams, Tony Griffiths, Richard Baker, Don Jones, Graham Jones, and Im sure some others I have failed to name..."To these forgotten names I appologise" These were the guy's who gave us all the Cardiff Wales Flying Club. At the time the Cambrian Flying Club was owned by Niall McGarrie and as a buisness man who needed a return from his investment the safest way was through training acft. Whilst Niall had no objection to owners operating there own Acft it came as a shock when the PFG leased in a Tourer and asked one of his QFI's to train them on Type. He was Steve Matthews and shortly afterwards was informed by Niall that he was out of work. Steve turned to the PFG and they responded, now not only were the PFG getting their 4 seater but a training PA38 to allow Steve to continue with his trade... I really cant remember all of these years later if G-ESSX came first or a C172 G-BFGD? And did we have G-BGXB or the other Mark 1. that was Orange and White and not the red and White of XB... "OK, so your all saying XB was Blue and White" well that came a couple of years later when Dave Howells and I sat in his Architects Offices preparing the monthly News Letter at 3am one morning, and Dave told me the Owner was going to pay for a Paint Job...Anyway after XB or the other, and SX or GD, we were established and on our way... G-BNNS came next. Dave LLoyd,Mike Flynn, nigel Hughes and I all flew in ESSX to collect her from the Midlands. Dave then formed A.T. Aviation to assist the club and build a fleet that we could use or dispose of at our discrettion and along came G-BMKE PA28RT-201, G-BNUY,G-BOHN,G-BPPR,G-BPPD,G-BPPG. All Tomahawks. PD, I smashed up. But I seen her the last time I was in the U.K. and still in servise...

You see these were the fun years of CWFC... At 3 in the morning we sat and prepared News Letters, we kept flying cheap by living in a portacabin, and making do with a kettle. We had our own Met Dept... We each had Mark.1. Eyeballs and a telephone to call the tower. As the membership grew so did the fleet, as the before mentioned grew so did the portacabins. We had a fantastic little flying Club...and Soon Cambrian was gone, and we were No.1....Along came the great Dai Jones with Glamorgan flying club and their extra liberal ways and they soon vanished, others came,tried,and departed... Our success was built on friendship,reliability, and the fact that the only profit required was an operating profit. We had no shareholders, debt's, or huge rents. Those of you there then will remember these happy day's.

So where do you guys the pilots of Cardiff go next? Swansea? Staverton? Next Door if there's another club?

No.

Do as we did all those years ago and learn from the mistakes made over the last few years... Keep it simple and cheap...

Start Again....Keep your overheads as low as you can, lease in the bare minimum of Acft. And what ever you do... Dont involve those who think they have run an Airline to deal with a flying Club... They are totally different Buisnesses.

Since my first post earlier today i have received two mails from guy's I knew at CWFC... 1 now flies the A320 and the other Captains the RJ100... Ordinary people that joined a very simple flying club... And have proven that keeping it simple meant they could complete there training with 1 flying school, go on and promote what they learnt from the Cardiff Wales Flying Club...

My friends go forward and kick Ass. Show me that what we did all those years ago has'nt been for nothing... Give me CWFC 2005 or a better name.

Go Cardiff Go...

And if any more of you remember me...Get in Touch....

Regard's

Ian Miller. "Canada"

[davtom]

Looks like CAA's new web site is now operational:

www.cardiffacademyofaviation.co.uk (http://www.cardiffacademyofaviation.co.uk)

[Allanhu]

Well, the opening night went well, good turnout, good food, and good wine. The place has been transformed into something you have to see to believe. Good to see so many old faces again, and to have a good chat with.
May I congratulate Gary, and his team, for making GA from Cardiff once again possible, and for providing a place with a fantastic future.
So, on behalf of current, and future member's, Thank You.