NERC.... The story so far..

[BEXIL160]

Dear all,

There have been numerous requests for info about NERC/LACC/Swanwick (pick your title), so here are a few of my own observations.

<img src="smile.gif" border="0"> OK, lets start with the Good Points.. .The ops room is a very pleasant environment. Not at all cramped, fairly light and easy on the eye. We even have some vey large pretty pictures on the walls (tropical beaches, waterfalls etc.. No, I'm not kidding)

The square tubes are good (IMO) and the radar has some very useful tools. Very accurate Groundsped (not at all like NODE-L), rate of climb/descent, predict vectors with predicted levels are all "nice to have". Moving the lables around to avoid overlap is simple. Best of all is that they are vertical (nearly), so no more backache from leaning over the flat tops at West Drayton.(Some have complained about the shrimp boats slidin off, but they are just dinosaurs :) )

The system has so far been stable, giving people some confidence in it.

<img src="wink.gif" border="0"> The not so good points.. .The ops room is BIG, no I mean REALLY BIG. Sitting on your own sector you feel somewhat isolated. It's not possible to actually see any other bananas from your seat. You can go for a whole shift without actually knowing exactly who is on the other sectors. Still, you've got the pretty pictures to look at.

<img src="frown.gif" border="0"> The BAD things . .Surprisingly few, you will be glad and probably somewhat amazed to hear.

First up, and a major disappointment, the RT is VERY POOR. A combination of lots of things. The requirement to route everything thru the remains of LATCC (AC), **** poor headsets, a "dodgy" cross couple device.

Telephones are likewise a bit of a disappointment. They should have been at least as good (bad?) as LATCC, but no, they aren't very good at all.

The two things together are the major reason why flow rates are being kept down. Next review 14th Feb (no jokes about St. Valentines day massacres pls).

Big problem from my point of view (pun INtended) is the legibilty of the windows used on the Planner (and assistant) displays. The Fonts are too small, and very difficult to read.

Fixes for all the above are allegedly "in hand", hopefully as a matter of urgency. Until then, and until we ALL get a bit more experience with the system we are going to have to be a bit cautious. Nothing wrong with that.

So there you go. Not too shabby, all things considered, and it could have been much, much worse (we could have all been back at LATCC!).

rgds BEX.

[Standing Hampton]

So are the stories relating to multi million pound fixes for the problems relating to software/hardware issues just rumour?

Allegedly as the story goes, the board has turned down the proposals on cost grounds?

Swanwick related delays are rather large even taking into consideration the traffic levels in February. When are the flow rates going to improve?

Anyone like to comment

[250 kts]

Bex, you make no mention of the rostering especially on nights. The fact that people are being asked to operate without ATSAs-something that we were always told was a no no.

The breaking of SCRATCOH on nights cos not enough people are being rostered.

The fact that a number of the OLDI links don't work correctly, and oh yes, managements' refusal to let us switch to a roster pattern that MAY just make the night duties slightly more bearable (ie 3 days off after the sleep day following the double nights that EVERYONE is now having to work).

Yeah, it's a major advance-----not!!!!!!! <img src="confused.gif" border="0"> <img src="confused.gif" border="0"> <img src="confused.gif" border="0">

[BEXIL160]

StandingH...

No idea how much the fixes will cost, but what are the NERC induced delays costing the members of TAG? I'm not a bean counter (GOD FORBID) but I would have thought that paying out a bit to fix NERC would save a lot for them? (No, you're right, I'm applying logic here... and that can't be correct :) )

The Flow rates will improve when the fixes are in, and when the staff are confident in the equipment. Oh, and if and when there are enough staff (see below). The next flow review is tomorrow (14th Feb)

250kts..... . .Sorry, you are quite correct in all you say of course, I was just sticking to my own impressions of technical side only. You will have seen different things I'm sure and I guess anybody reading this will be interested any info.

Rostering is indeed a major problem (or shambles if you prefer), and I do not dispute it at all. NERC is rather labour intensive compared to LATCC, and there are not enough ATCOs/ATSAs. This fact has been brought up in Parliament / Commons Select Committee and many other forums. I seem to recall a statement made to that committee that "We have 60 more controllers than we actually need". Now, remind me, WHO said that? And why have they never been brought to task over this blatant lie?

Rgds BEX

P.S. Yep, I prefer 6 on, 4 off as well. Voted, for it (twice), won once (i thought).

[BEXIL160]

Just one more thing to add....

I wonder how many people outside of NERC know that the Swanwick System still relies on the 30 year old technology of NAS (still at West Drayton) and CANNOT function independently of it (at least not for very long..... about 45 mins)

Think about it.

Rgds BEX

[No I meant turn RIGHT]

On the rostering front - just out of interest - what shift system are you currently working?

When I had something to do with rostering (admitedly only at a smaller airport) I couldn't any more efficient than MMAANNSOOO out of SRATCOH.

[BDiONU]

I wouldn't hold your breath about major 'improvements' to the font size/colours.

[BEXIL160]

WHY? Have the HSE decided that the displays are just fine? Or have "management" decided they ain't gonna pay for improvements?

Presumably NATS has insurance against any class action that might be brought in the future by someone who's eyesight has been damaged. I wonder what those insurers would think of this arguably "negligent" attitude. Not a lot I would imagine.

Rgds BEX <img src="confused.gif" border="0">

[no sig]

Useful update Bexil, keep us posted.

[Scott Voigt]

BEXIL;

LMART already has the software for the display fonts. They made them for US!!!!! Tell them to give you some of the adjustable fonts that they have for DSR. &lt;G&gt; We have youngster size, journeyman size, wizened controller size and then you ought to retire size &lt;G&gt;....

regards

Scott

PS. Just got put on the national team for ERAM (Enroute Automation Moderinization). If we ever get full funding, it will be what finally gets us out of NAS and into something really modern... Some of the stuff that we are looking into is REALLY neat stuff.

[BEXIL160]

Hiya Scott,

You mentioned LMART... the way these guys seem to be with money we'd be lucky to get stuff from KMART :)

[BDiONU]

BEXIL

I do not know why. All I can tell you is that we have been told not to set the customers (i.e. you) expectations too high.

S VOIGHT

Its not about the display drivers, its to do with the size of the windows.

[BEXIL160]

Huh? "Size of the windows?" No, the WINDOWS are about the RIGHT SIZE. The FONTS ARE TOO SMALL.

BEX.

P.S. no "H" in Voigt. He's a controller, not an Actor.

[sony backhander]

Aside from the displays which are poor,what about the poor ambient lighting? Many people are going home sick with headaches.. .This problem isn't going to go away despite certain mangers saying"they'll get used to it"-until things like this are addrsssed , I expect any flow increases will be resisted.

[crowman]

As yet the central problem of NERC has not been addressed. It is too labour intensive to be cost effective. Many sectors that at LATCC were open daily cannot be opened at NERC for this summer. The result is that traffic will have to be severely restricted all summer as the "west end" sectors cannot all be open neither can Hurn or Daventry open all their sectors. By September we will have 15 LESS controllers than at O date. Their is likely to be few validations this summer. At the moment sector opening is being driven by the ATSA figures as much as the ATCO figures. That can be cured more quickly but it may take 2-3 years to start to solve the ATCO numbers even given a quick return to training which is by no means assured given the present feelings

[BDiONU]

But the size of the windows is what determines how much 'space' there is for characters. To increase the character size would mean (AFAIK) increasing the size of windows to be able to contain the increase. This does, of course, mean increasing the size of everything else associated with the flight data, EFS, TDB etc. etc.. .Interestingly less than 0.5% of staff havereported problems with font size, and the number complaining about lighting is much less.

BTW I'm prejudiced because in the 2 years I've worked there I've never had a problem 'reading' the screen.

[sony backhander]

0.5% of staff,does this mean ONLY operational staff or are you also counting people who helped build it,managers and their subordinates etc -i feel these may be somewhat biased- just by reading the safety obs. forms alone and counting those who have gone home sick equates to a little more than 0.5% (of actual operational atcos)i think you'll find

[Captain Windsock]

"Gone home sick"

Can somebody expand on this as the implied implication is taht the font size has caused some controllers to leave the ops room sick. Most worrying

[BEXIL160]

Take3 etc.... .If you look at the windows, there appears to be room for bigger characters without changing the size of the windows. Put another way, the existing crap fonts do NOT fill the space available for them. Even if this is not the case what is the problem with making all the windows bigger and therefore more legible? The cost?

If you think there is no problem then perhaps to put all our minds at ease you might like to do a proper survey of ALL the OPERATIONAL users to see what their opinions are.

I don't think that NERC management will ever countenance a survey because then they would not be able to hide behind such mis-information as "only 0.5% of staff have a problem". UTTER RUBBISH. The truth is worse, much worse.

As ever I started off with the positive things, and yes, there are some. My colleagues have also pointed out the things that could and should have been done better. Much better. They are quite right. Now, under the new openess regime that NERC was supposed to operate I, and my colleagues, would like to see changes. VERY SOON.

Rgds BEX

[sony backhander]

cptn sock-excuse the phrase "gone home sick" but you get the point. it's not JUST the font -headaches etc are caused by poor lighting which only makes eyestrain worse.

[BEXIL160]

To help people who haven't had the opportunity of squinting at the NERC fonts, you can get a good approximation of what we are talking about here by going to your copy of MS Word (or Works!) and typing a few lines using the font :

Abadi MT condensed Size 8

Try something like LFPG..RATUK.L613.EGSS .Now sit back and try to count the number of dots. Did you find yourself involuntarily leaning forward and/or squinting to see better? Imagine having to try to read this font for 2 HOURS.

Okay, this isn't the exact font, but what is? What size is it and at what DPI is it displayed? Any NERC techie people care to answer?

Rgds BEX

[BEXIL160]

To Take3...

The TDB has THREE selectable sizes already. Small/medium/large.

How would changing the other fonts affect this? Can they be made selectable also?

BEX.

P.S. If you are worried about the increased size of the windows meaning increased Window Tax, that particular law was repealed several centuries ago. <img src="wink.gif" border="0">

[bill]

spot on bexil.... .that font is about the size of it.. .as an example, ever tried reading the weather from the "met summary" page (I think) - without expanding it? It must be at least 1/3 size of the list of pprune links down the left side of this page.. ....and as for the lighting... I can only think that the design brief was to produce a "cool" building rather than a decent working environment.

[ferris]

Can I just point out that the reason management will be against any changes/whinges will be stated as 'contrary to surveys'. The real reason will be found in the fine print of the contract specifications ie; those specs that were made when there was no 'survey' and now require $$$ to change. Managers are averse to spending money, not fixing problems. It is a shame the two are intertwined.. .Just my experience.

[brockenspectre]

As non-ATC but someone who has always thought of Brit ATC as just about the best in the world (considering what I have heard from my many wonderful jumpseat stays over the past 20 yrs) I am totally appalled that the key senses that ATC relies on, sight and sound, have not been "provisioned" correctly.

When I saw the pic of the new Ops room my first reaction as a 'puter user, was GLARE!!! Then when I hear that not only are the headsets inadequate but the screen displays cannot let sections "enlarge" upon selection by the operator (as do dealer-desks in the City) I am stunned....saddened ... and feel very helpless. Who did the spec' for lighting, headsets and screens? I am happy folks sit in a big space with pretty pictures on the wall but if I were an ATCO (alas too old to train now dammit!) I wouldn't care too much about my environment if I had user-friendly kit! Is NERC management able to do something to make things work? upgrade equipment? or have they been so hog-tied by government or whoever that there is no discretion....geesh...guess all I can say is Good Luck and hope y'all don't get too many headaches.

:) :)

[Buster the Bear]

WHAT THE @*** !. .Bex, how can you read it. I have trouble on my TFT screen using that font!

How can you safely control?

Well if your eye sight is okayed by SRG (Which it must be) and you have an incidendent relating to the font size, could make for a very interesting court case!

Of course your management and SRG have indicated that the size of the font is acceptable for it to permit the use of the new displays and therefore MUST be safe.

BEX actually you must be joking, in this world of Corp liability, it must be your eyes to blame, I suggest you seek an SRG medical check as soon as posible! Remember SRG and your authorities do not have a problem reading the info that you have to!

[BEXIL160]

Sadly, I am deadly serious, as other NERC users will confirm. In fact the fonts in use at Swanwick are poorer in resolution, in my opinion.

Glare is an issue. Already on the South Sector group my colleagues try to avoid using the workstations next to the walls because of reflections from the ceiling lighting.

Despite all these handicaps the operational ATCOs and ATSAs (and whats left of our ATEs) are providing the best service possible, in some instances "cherry picking" some flights that have picked up inordinate flow delays and can be accomodated without too much hassle. (Mostly low performance types at the lower alts).

What concerns me greatly is there appears to be a complete lack of urgency from NATS mangement about fixing these problems.

BEX <img src="frown.gif" border="0">

[Scott Voigt]

BEXIL;

The FAA told us too that ON NO, NOTHING CAN BE CHANGED!!!! That was before the press release. After that, oh you only want THAT changed &lt;G&gt;. Actually it was our administrator asking her underlings, "This is all they want? We don't have a problem with this do we gentlemen????"

We've made quite a few changes over the last couple of years and we aren't done with it yet. Going at the speed of lack of money &lt;G&gt;.

Good luck with it...

regards

[CUNIM]

Try this chaps and chapesses, this is what I specify and have specified over the last ten years.

Character Size. Numbers, letters and symbols associated in a datablock shall be of such a size that they are clearly readable from the controller's normal operating position at the console. It is recommended that the minimum size should be 4mm.

The minimum size of the characters should correspond to the following formula:

Character Height = Viewing Distance in mm X 0.0002908 mm / minute of arc. .Where; Character Height = 20' of arc. .Character width = 70% of height. .Stroke Width = 12% of height. .Space between characters = 20% of width. .Space between rows = 30% of height (radar label only). .(For continuous lines of text the row space = 60% of height minimum)

What is so important about the size of the window? When it is "see through" and "control through", there is no real problem as it becomes relatively unimportant. The font size remains important though.

All the best in NERC, I was doing my bit in the 80's but nobody would listen. <img src="smile.gif" border="0"> <img src="smile.gif" border="0">

[BDiONU]

There is a huge wedge of paperwork which 'proves' that all the NERC font sizes etc. exceed the British Standards.. .BEXIL. .I am sure that there are a LOT more operational staff who have trouble but if they don't report (note I said in my earlier response in BOLD, "reported") it and just mutter in the background then nothing much will get done. Also your perception of the 'space' in the windows to increase the character size is not correct. Without giving a techie answer (think about how you build a web page with HTML etc. etc.) what you see in the window isn't what actual 'space' there is to play with.. .The bottom line is:. .Yes of course its all down to cost.

[BEXIL160]

Hmmm... I've seen paperwork relating to USMil specs, but nothing about British Standards. If what you say is true, then the standard is WRONG. The fonts ARE too small.

I'll take you word for the space available, but why not just make all the windows BIGGER, and how come there ARE selectable fonts for the TDB?

Shortage of money is all very well. What are NERC gonna do when half their controlers and assistants are off sick durring the summer with VDU induced migraines? That WILL cost someone a lot of £/€/$.

BEX

[torpids]

Take3Call5, there is a huge amount of paperwork. .currently with Health & Safety Executive which. .proves that the font sizes DO NOT meet. .British or European Standards.

[Attendance Monitor]

Hey Bex-fascinating stuff from the perspective of OSC (i.e. not NSC). We'll swop you Skyline for your kit-there's a big van on the way. Oh and we'll have the nice pictures as well!. .Have a good summer.

[BEXIL160]

I understand that Skyline ain't perfect either <img src="wink.gif" border="0"> but then I still have a fond spot for LOCUS16.....Then I still have a fond spot for the Golf Inn and RedBrae Rockets. (Who?)

OSC? Ahhh you mean the ex Scottish Coal Board HQ. It seems in keeping then that NERC is on the site of an Old Brickworks.

There is a lesson here for those (lucky) people North of the border. Should McNerc ever get started again I would urge as many operational people as possible to GET INVOLOVED IN THE PROJECT. You might then just avoid having to put everything right (and argue about the cost) after it's built.

Dreaming of a summer at Largs.... .Rgds BEX

[Dinosaur]

&gt; I would urge as many operational people as possible to GET INVOLOVED IN THE PROJECT.

Bexil, you've put your finger right on it there.

Over the 6+ years that the NERC system has been in test at Swanwick, we've gone through probably four iterations of fonts and colours. In each case, the changes have been at the behest of some one loudly proclaiming, "I represent the controllers. Let me tell you what we really want."

Reading this thread, I'm moved to ask, where were you guys? Except I know the answer -- working your real job. But please realise it wasn't from lack of interest by the implementers that we ended with what we have.

I'll be fascinated to see how well you get on with your proposed changes, given the current political/financial circumstances.

And congrats and thanks to you all who are working hard to make NERC, so far, look pretty good.

[sony backhander]

I was led to believe that colours and fonts were chosen by a, wait for it.... art college-as they were relaxing on the eye! Also i've been told that the DPI standard which is being quoted by some only relates to PRINTED matter not VDU's.. .Those that have the power to address this have been told allegedly-so if/when someone cocks up they can't claim they didn't know.

[BDiONU]

TORPIDS. .I would be very interested to know why you think there is a mass of paperwork with the HSE [quote] proving <hr></blockquote> that the fonts are not to standard. HSE only took an interest in mid January and had a visit, then asked for proof of compliance with the relevant legislation - TI: The Health and Safety (Display Screen Equipment) Regulations 1992 . .CD: Made 5th November 1992. Laid before Parliament 16th November 1992.. .Coming into force 1st January 1993 . .PB: London : HMSO 1992 . .SE: Statutory Instruments; SI 1992/2792. HEALTH AND SAFETY . .IB: 011025919X . .However the NERC system was designed before 1993 - The suppliers were required to use the following standards or equivalents as. .the basis for the Human Factors design:

a) DEF STAN 00-25 - Human Factors for Designers of Equipment.. .b) MIL STD 1472D - Human Engineering Design Criteria.

The equivalent standard used for the design of the Human Computer Interface. .(HCI) was DIN 66 234 Part 1

HSE also had some supplementary questions, which (as I understand it) NATS are answering as soon as possible. But mainly it has been a matter of satisfying the criteria of the DSE regulations, which the system does as follows:-. .The equivalent standard used for the design of the Human Computer Interface. .(HCI) was DIN 66 234 Part 1, which includes a statement that the text height. .shall appear at a visual angle of at least 18 minutes. The font used for. .all the text in the accepted bay window is Helvetica and an angle of 18. .minutes equates to 10 point text when seen from the design optimum viewing. .distance of around 0.5 metre. The text within the accepted bay varies. .between 10 point and 14 point. The. .smallest text is within the standard, and the text of critical data such as. .entry and exit Flight Level exceeds the required standard.. .For those interested, the smallest NERC font size is Helvetica 10 point (but flight critical data is 14 point) the height is 2.54mm and for 14 point its 4.94mm (to get pixel size take point size and multiply by 0.254).

[BEXIL160]

So that's alright then....

Well, no actually it is not. Although the system was specified pre 1993, the final version was not laid down until much later. Saying that you are complying with older specs doesn't wash.

It's like saying the Lotus 7 was designed in the 1960s and didn't need seatbelts, if you build one TODAY you will very definitely have to put seatbelts in it. Apart from the fact that it is a good idea.

You make no mention of the font sizes in the FDE or FFP. I have a copy of Helvetica and Helvetica bold and the size is not 10 or 14 point. The way it is displayed at NERC is much more like 8 point, and is limited by the resolution of the NERC displays.

There is a serious problem here. NERC management have known about it for AT LEAST A YEAR. Please don't use the excuse that "we complied with (out of date)the specifications".

Thoughout OCT course managers were advised to avoid mentioning the legibility of the fonts for fear of unwelcome criticism. Either time or money was the issue, not the welfare or health of the staff.

I repeat. If you are relying for your defence on the compliance with outdated regulations, should there be an incident relating to this issue, a court of law will not be very sympathetic. You KNEW there was a problem and DID NOTHING ABOUT IT? I can hear the barristers now, can't you?

What happened to the joint approach that the new start at NERC was supposed to bring? Only seems to apply when management want it to it seems. Not much like a company that "encourages all staff to contribute" is it?

Roll on re-nationalisation.

Rgds. .BEX

[ 19 February 2002: Message edited by: BEXIL ]</p>

[torpids]

Take3Call5, well I am interested to. .hear that you feel old standards are good. .enough to deal with the ATC of. .today, but I think I will wait and get. .confirmation from the HSE - after all,. .their report isn't out yet. I assume you. .won't mind making it public when it comes. .since you are confident?

[NERC Dweller]

I'm with dinosaur, The MMI has been redone on several occasions to meet the requirements of those that "represented" ATC.

Now for some techie stuff.

The displays in use are 20" X 20" Sony's (about 28" across). They have a resolution of 2048 by 2048, so they are not the kind of thing you get at home.

I can confirm that the smallest font size on display at NERC is Helvetica 10 point and is rendered onto the screen by some of the most widely used graphics software in the world so its probably right.

Bexil - what will make the characters smaller is the resolution of the display - try it on your computer at home by changing the resolution setting and see what happens.

[BEXIL160]

NERC Dweller...

Yup, you are indeed right, the NERC display has been changed many times. At NO TIME was any effort made to get a concensus of opinion from those who were to be the end users, only a few who preported to be representative of the operational staff. Who were they?

I've tried using Helevetica 10 on a 17in CRT with a display resolution of 1280x960, and frankly it's pretty poor. Much like the NERC FDE / FFP boxes. The NERC font "appear" to be a similar size to point 8 on a 17in CRT.

Who picked Helvetica? Arial would be MUCH clearer in my opinion. Just how difficult would it be to change fonts to ARIAL. Was any experimentation done? IS IT DOCUMENTED?

Anyway we now apparently have £30-60 million available to fix it <img src="wink.gif" border="0">

Rgds BEX

[iss7002]

It would seem that manufacturers and users should talk a bit more. In Australia we also use the Sony 2K monitor and due to problems with the zone focusing system (parts of the screen continually go out of focus) and the poor life of the display (about 20 months) are in the process off dumping it for Barco Plasma displays.

The font issue was/is a problem here a lot of work went into meeting OHS design criteria, the fonts meant that a non optimal background colour had to be used within the colour pallete and the situation now is still not great. Currently investigations are going on into the increased use of glasses etc.

[sector8dear]

One point worth making. Yes the NERC displays do run at high resolution compared with home systems which are typicaly 1024 x 768 or 1280 x 1024 at best, this is normally on a 17" or 19" display with fairly small dot pitch.

The NERC displays are indeed 2048 x 2048 BUT on such a large display (c 28" square) the dot pitch and thus definition is not great - thus poor definition which combined with the use of a small font is less than good...... <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0">

[BEXIL160]

ISS7002..

Thanks for that. It does seem to me that sometimes parts of the Sony tube are out of focus. I put it down to my own eyesight and the crap fonts, but perhaps not.

Thanks also for ringing the ALARM BELLS on the life of the Sony tubes. To quote a line from my Kid's favourite movies "Toys don't last forever"... (Toy Story2). So folks, WE NEED to look at replacements NOW, before it becomes a problem.... No wait, that would mean foward planning and our management have proved beyond doubt that they can't do that <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0">

Rgds BEX

[BEXIL160]

Dear All,

We have strayed considerably off track here (and are probably way out of association, soon to be marked for delete, methinks).

The issues raised are important and hopefully the powers that be read this and will do more to help.

NERC is by no means all bad news. The actual building is far, far better than the sh*t hole that was LATCC and I believe we are all much better off for the move South. There have been enormous disappointments. The RTF, the Headsets, the Display Equipment, the number of staff. All of which have been aluded to here.

Fix these problems and we will have a first class ACC. I would now like to see some EFFORT directed at solving the problems. A challenge to NATS /NERC management. Prove me wrong. Prove to me, and everyone else at LACC, that you can take all this on board and take positive steps to fix it properly. If you can't, or won't, the LATCC culture will arise again, very soon, like a Phoenix or Nemesis, if you prefer.

Rgds BEX

[BDiONU]

I know the thread is closing but I just wanted to put some things straight.

I did not say that because the system spec was written prior to the 1993 regulations that it does not need to comply. It does and it does but its a matter of dusting off ye olde files to dig out the info that HSE want.

Focus is indeed a problem but one which ATCO's seem very reluctant to tell the engineers about when they see it. Indeed it is very apparent that anything 'wrong' at NERC is perceived as a fault of the system, when much of the time its something which is U/S or a tech fault. Out of focus is a fault, if you tell the engineers (or if they frighten you, tell the helpdesk) they will come and put the screen in focus. Very interesting to watch it is too. Got to agree that the 20 areas thing is a pain.

The Sony displays are still being produced (albeit at an outrageous price!). NATS have/are trialling the BARCO displays, which in certain circumstances give a much better picture, but.... being LCD there can be an after image of bright colours for up to 10 minutes, plus if you lose a pixel the screen goes weird, plus other techie stuff I don't understand.

I agree that the Helvetica font is not best and there are moves afoot to change it, but don't hold your breath.

I'm sure the HSE report will appear around the company and I personally would have no qualms about it being public. However I am a NATS employee and bound by its rules of confidentiality, particularly in an open conf like this one.

BEXIL - The people who designed the system were not ATC. Professional ATC involvement only came with the NTT. So if anything was not to their liking they had to tell us, and we did all we could to fix it. The ONLY way we can know of a problem is if you TELL us. During the whole year of OCT there were not many reported 'problems' with the fonts etc. No-one complained of head aches. Suddenly, after a whole year of using the kit a host of 'totally unacceptable' problems appear. What were you guys doing during that year? I know part of the problem is that the operational staff never seem to reach concensus about anything much (OK apart from NATS nearly going down the pan due to privatisation!). What happens ALL the time is that someone will decide, for example, that the timing is wrong for the ACT on a flight into their sector and wants it to come 2 minutes earlier. So they raise an observation and we change the adaptation. Next thing a host of staff complain that its too early, they don't want it so early. We are learning not to knee jerk react to every single observation. Hence, in part, the slowness of reaction to the colours and fonts, management want to make a considered response which will suit everyone.

One final thing. Management are keenly aware of the perceived problems with colours and fonts and they are/have tried a number of solutions and changes. Much of it the operational staff are unaware of.

Cheers

Railtrack of the skies? Sounding familiar now!!

[Slippery When Wet]

Take3Call5,

I am impressed with your vigorous defence of the indefensible. Edited because we do not tolerate individuals giving clues or hints as to who an individual PPRuNer might be unless they are in the public domain. In common with Messrs Cheese-Ham, Fish-Eating-Bird and others, you have had the luxury of being able to look at the displays and pronounce them "fine" without any danger of having to use them to control air traffic "in anger".

As regards the question of why there were minimal "reports" of problems with the fonts during twelve months of OCT, I can only assume that you, and the above-named clique, were absent visiting another planet! It is my recollection that the legibility, or lack of it, was the predominant topic of conversation in and around the TDU. If there were no adverse reports, why was the offer of payment for new glasses forthcoming from on-high? What about the ludicrous suggestion of the "manual zoom"? Did you not see, or at least hear about, the now-legendary problem report typed in green on green paper to highlight the problem?

As to the recent increase in the occurence of headaches, I suggest that there is a considerable difference in the concentration involved between a relatively-short fixed-duration of a simulation in the the TDU, and the full-length shift controlling live traffic (with possibly a SCRATCRO bust as well).

Again, I commend you on your devotion to duty but I wonder if it is done with one eye over your shoulder, hoping for a longer-term offer of employment with NATS as the end of OCT looms. Not that I'm cynical....

[ 22 February 2002: Message edited by: PPRuNe Radar ]</p>

[BDiONU]

Sigh! Oh dear 'Slippery when wet', I had hoped that this forum would not resort to personal flames.

Once again you, as others, mistake your standing around muttering about problems as reporting them. You assume that management (and Systems et al) 'know' of your concerns because you have talked amongst yourselves about it. Unfortunately crystal balls and ESP are not standard issue and unless you tell us (report it on those lovely green bits of paper in TDU, in Ops go to the helpdesk, its what we are there for, to HELP!) we cannot divine it. There were some reports of problems in the TDU and these were considered, not ignored.. .I do not understand why there is this general feeling in this forum that it was NATS intention to provide an intentionally difficult, hard to use, hard to read and totally uncontroller friendly system. Nor do I understand why there's a feeling that those in the back rooms are doing nothing to fix problems that are encountered. There's a tremendous amount of work going on by some very able people.

Edited to remove personal details, there is no need for anyone in here to get personal and cast aspersions who who someone may or may not be. Therefore the anonymity of these poster should be respected.

[ 22 February 2002: Message edited by: PPRuNe Radar ]</p>

[St.Louis]

So LATCC was a sh*t hole you say. You then say that NERC has disappointing RTF, headsets, display equipment, lack of staff etc etc! So where is the sh*t hole now then eh!. .The ops room is big , too big and morbid everthing is grey. The carpet is grey, workstation paneling grey, radar display grey, information screens grey, lighting makes the ceiling look grey, management hair grey going on silver!!!. .As you correctly stated and suprisingly not many replied back, is that the main computer is still at good old West Drayton. So all information put into NAS has to travel all the way back up to West Drayton for a response then to be sent back to NERC. When we were at LATCC the response time was straight away, now we have to wait 3-5 seconds for certain input responses. What was all those computer shutdowns we had at LATCC for? We were under the impression it was for NERC testing prior to 'O' date. Now after 3 weeks of operations at Swanwick we have already had 4 computer shutdowns with another 9! yes 9 planned before March 18th. Obviusly there are alot of bugs in this system!. .A new topic, the ORO - Employ at great expense lots of new staff to do the watch rostering. Why? when we used to do the same thing on the watch for free. Cost effective or what!

[NERC Dweller]

BEXIL - To change all of the text to Arial would be an awkward job. The difficulty would not be in changing the font but checking that the change has been implemented correctly across every component.

For example if using Arial font made something bigger then some items may not be fully displayed in the allowed space. This would mean that we would then have to change the allowed space and may have to totally change the layout of a component.

As to your other questions I can't answer them because I don't know for definite.

I have heard noises about replacing the Sony's with Flat Panels in the medium term.

[zonoma]

St.Louis, go bury your head back in the sand where it belongs. Ops Room all grey? Not the last time I saw it, Cream and green suites surely, creamy white walls, and I'm sure some green appears on the radars occasionally, even with the flow restrictions.

As for shutdowns, and I would love to be corrected, but the FIRST one is happenning RIGHT NOW as I write, or do management turn up for them ALL at the moment??????

Oh, and yes LATCC was a s***e hole, and NO, LACC isn't, it just has problems that need correcting. Hopefully by 4am tomorrow........

-------------------------------------------------

Please feel free to use the cardboard box over in the corner, we'll call it a Long Sleep

[St.Louis]

ZZZ - Before you post about shutdowns I would get your facts right first.I am right about the amount of shutdowns. Wednesday night is an AIRAC date shutdown of which there are about 12 for the year, the others are for patches for the problems the new centre is having. So far including last night we have had 1 airac shutdown, 1 x 4 hour shutdown, and 3 short shutdowns of approximately 1.5 hours. Before March 18 there are to be 4 x 1.5 hour shutdowns and 4 x 4.5 hour shutdowns. So ZZZ get your facts right first before you start defending LACC. Next time you are in work phone check the FI (facility interupt) book.

[DrSyn]

As one who has just suffered the effects of tonight's shutdown, as reported above by zzz & St.Louis, and not wishing to become embroiled in a lively, but essentially personal, matter between ATC friends, I have asked a question on a new thread. I would be grateful if any of you could enlighten a humble pilot.

[Scott Voigt]

Y'all should look into the ISIS flat panel display to replace the old Sony monitors. They look VERY NICE! I know that the FAA is looking at those as well as some other options to replace the aging displays...

regards

[2 six 4]

Scott - NATS already has ISIS displays and no doubt the future use of these screens is being planned. They are an improvement but perhaps not the complete answer. More of these types coming on the market each year.

Just a small matter of replacing 500 screens at one go ?