CVR Erasure policy

[Centaurus]

Chatting over coffee the other day with colleague who flies for Virgin Blue. He loves the job and wouldn't change it for the world.

He mentioned that some of the pilots he crews with make a deliberate point of erasing the CVR tape after shut-down, even during 30 minute turn-arounds as well as last flight on that particular aircraft.

Is that a company or trade union directive - and if so why would you worry about erasing a tape unless there is something on it you don't want recorded? Is it legal to erase the tape?

[AerocatS2A]

There's probably all sorts of stuff that a crew talks about that they'd really rather not have other people listen to. From slagging off their company to inappropriate comments about the hosties, who knows?

[Sperm Bank]

Perhaps some of the lads are just a touch paranoid about what big brother might say...if in fact they could be bothered to pull the CVR info.

[troppo]

dunno about paranoia...big brother (aka the NZ Police) in all their wisdom used it to build a case against a Dash 8 Captain after a crash in Palmie a few years ago...a world first apparently.
:mad:

[Time Bomb Ted]

Apart from it being "highly illegal", and enforceable by the ATSB, it is also irresponsible of the flight crew to erase the CVR. If there is an accident or incident, investigators need all the information they can get (including the previous minutes now possibly erased) to find the root cause of the accident.
We all scream "Turn your plurry transponder on for our safety", but then some of the same folks are erasing a very important part of accident investigation.
Bad sign in my books.

TBT

[Plas Teek]

Can't say I've heard of it in these parts.
Maybe something to get put in your next contract round.
No reading of the CVR without "Proper" auth or whatever, words to that effect...

[Capn Bloggs]

Time Bomb Ted,
Now that the ATSB can be forced to release the CVR by a court if the public interest outweighs the crewmembers (unlike to the old days) so they can have their arses sued off, why do you reckon people are erasing the CVRs? Before I hit the ground, that's exactly what I'll be doing. The lawyers and bureaucrats can get stuffed.

The AirNZ Dash 8 accident showed what will happen these days.

[Howard Hughes]

I cannot believe I am hearing this!

Most modern CVR's hold at least 24 hours of information, some even longer. Should an incident/accident occur, this information could be invaluable. Maybe a noise heard 3 or 4 sectors earlier might hold the key to unlocking the mystery.

Who cares if you made some comment about what you'd like to do with the HEAD flight attendant or how BAD the company is to work for...

I have also heard of people pulling the circuit breaker!!

Of course the trick is, if you dont want it heard, dont say it!!

Cheers, HH.
:ok:

[404 Titan]

Howard Hughes

The point is the lawyers can use the info from the CVR to sue me if I survive or my family if I don’t. The whole idea of CVR and FDR’s as an accident investigation tool and hence an education tool has been hijacked by the scum lawyer who overpopulate this earth and governments pandering to the minority. Until I am protected under law, I’m sorry, my family’s welfare and I come first. Maybe it is the governments around the world and Lawyers that you should be venting your anger at, as they are the problem, not us drivers who by the way under international convention should be protected.

[Capt Fathom]

Yes, unfortunately you have to look after yourself these days. The problem with the CVR (or FDR which you can't erase) after an incident is it can either make you the hero or the villian .
Do I erase or not? Tough one!

[air-hag]

Hahahahahaaaaaaa!!! Morons!!!

24hrs....!!! WTF are you talking about???? :eek:... :rolleyes:..... :bored:..... :sad:

The 737 CVR holds the last 30 minutes of conversation. And if you've just landed and are STILL capable of lifting an un-bloodied hand and pressing the "erase" button, then I think it's pretty obvious they don't need the information!!! :rolleyes:

No one's going to come out during your 30 minute turn-around and dig through the guts of the jet to pull out the CVR just to hear what you had to say about the HEAD hostie's head (and who says that comment is not appropriate??? It's probably true...) or brown-nosing the boss. This is not a QAR we are talking about.

30 minutes guys, then it tapes over it all over again. You can relax now. :sad: :ok: No one cares what you said the day before the crash... :rolleyes:

They've already thought of this and out-smarted the dumb-arse pilots. It's called a QAR and actions speak louder than words. Why do you think you even have the capability to erase the tape? If you've landed safely they probably don't care what you said. And if they do, erasure of the tape does not mean the info is permanently lost. Sorry to disappoint you married guys....

[Air Ace]

For once in her petty, boring, long life, the Old Slag is almost correct:

Cockpit Voice Recorder
Time recorded..........30 min continuous, 2 hours for solid state digital units
Number of channels.....4
Impact tolerance........3400Gs / 6.5 ms
Fire resistance...........1100 degC / 30 min
Water pressure resistance submerged 20,000 ft
Underwater locator beacon 37.5 KHz; battery has shelf life of 6 years or more, with 30-day operation capability upon activation

[air-hag]

6.5 ms-1 = 3400G ?????

Holy snapping dog****s Batman. No wonder it hurt..........




:\

[gaunty]

Well it is ONLY transient :), I reckin I used to be able to get the bedsprings up to those sort of G wunce :{

[Howard Hughes]

Maybe it is the governments around the world and Lawyers that you should be venting your anger at,

Umm Err, what anger? Just making an observation!!

Cheers, HH.
:ok:

[john_tullamarine]

Gaunty .. I have this incredibly dreadful vision in my mind .....

Keep in mind that some might also dub the CVR to a QAR .. don't know of any who do .. but have been involved in discussions on the very subject .....

[FarQ2]

Time Bomb Ted -- ILLEGAL ?? where'd you get that from - it maybe I don't know.

But I remember back "pre war days" that it was recommended by the AFAP that you erased the CVR at the end of a tour of duty - PROVIDED you walked away from the last landing. :}

This was brought about by Zealots in the Co. (AN) listening to the CVR reporting on it and the "actors" being invited to "tea and bickkies" to explain why they were slagging off or whatever at the time. :hmm:

[air-hag]

listening to the CVR reporting on it and the "actors" being invited to "tea and bickkies" to explain why they were slagging off or whatever at the time sounds like an old hag's tale.



My professional advice is pull the CB. That's what it's there for.

Hang a pair of fuzzy dice from it to remind you to push it back in later.

If it won't stay in, say it popped when you switched the busses over.

[I'm gone!]

Time Bomb,

Would you be able to quote a reference for the erasure of the CVR being illegal.

Why is the erase button on the control panel for the CVR in the cockpit if it is illegal to use it??

I personally erase it everytime I get out of the machine for the last time for that day.

It is really of no interest to anyone else what the Capt. and I were cr@pping on about whilst taxying in, should the next crew spear in on take off:eek:

The button must be there for some reason.

Cheers,

I'm gone!

[BrownHolerPoler]

I don't think you're listening. You don't NEED to erase it as it is taped over immediately.

And if it were illegal someone would've told you by now not to use the button above your head.

[I'm gone!]

A reply just to confirm that I am not a moron.

I know that it is taped over. The batteries must remain ON for the CVR to operate. If they are left ON for 30 mins, then yes indeed the previous crews banter will have been taped over before the next unfortunates end up in the HIALS in a smoking mess!

Call me paranoid, but I hit the button before I leave out of habit now.

Cheers,

I'm gone!

[404 Titan]

BrownHolerPoler

The equipment I fly has a 2 hour solid state CVR and a QAR. It takes a ground engineer 30 seconds to remove the tape from the QAR. It takes me 2 seconds to erase it. The 2 hour CVR is on a continuous recording cycle and erases only that that was recorded two hours earlier.

[Creampuff]

A few points

First, if you think that pulling the CVR circuit breaker necessarily disconnects power to the CVR, check with your friendly AME and ask her to walk you through the circuit diagram. In any event, the FDR (if there is one) usually records whether and if so when CVR power is disconnected.

Secondly, if you think pushing the CVR erase button necessarily erases the CVR recording, check with your friendly AME and ask her to walk you through the circuit diagram. In any event, the FDR (if there is one) usually records whether and if so when the CVR erase button is activated.

Thirdly, be careful about the circumstances in which you erase. Section 24 of the Transport Safety Investigation Act 2003 says: (1) A person is guilty of an offence if:

(a) the person engages in conduct; and

(b) the person is reckless as to whether the conduct will adversely affect an investigation:

(i) that is being conducted at that time; or
(ii) that could be conducted at a later time into an immediately reportable matter; and

(c) the conduct has the result of adversely affecting such an investigation (whether or not the investigation had commenced at the time of the conduct); and

(d) the conduct is not authorised by the Executive Director.[bolding added]

[PPRuNe Towers]

Trad magnetic CVR tapes: Last time I researched this was several years ago.

At the time the record for lab reconstruction of spoken words and 'witness' sounds was 13 layers into the tape. i.e 6.5 hours before the tape was pulled. I can only guess what affordable digital signal processing has done to the quality in the years since.

If this seems baffling at first you suffer it at home with old audio cassettes (8 tracks for the Woomeras:O ) and video tapes. Your Oz tV heritage is also suffering from 'print through.'

If it interests you enough the key to these two similar effects is 'domain theory and I'm sure google will amply reward the brave.

Regards
Rob Lloyd

[Obie]

Aren't we lucky that we have the Master of Lavs and Dunnies to aquaint us mere uneducated Colonials to the big wide world of commercial aviation?

Strewth!!...no wonder the POMS are a joke!

How many medals did they win at Athens?

How long since they won a cricket match?

Name a half decent airplane the "English" made?

Oops!...forgot about the 146 didn't I?

:p

[air-hag]

He tried hard top ignore the fact I already mentioned it.. used a few big words, etc.

Oh well.... gotta be quick.

What about the Spit, Hurricane and Mossie?

Okay okay, nothing worthwhile since then that didn't blow windows everywhere.....

:zzz:

[Pass-A-Frozo]

I don't blame them for erasing it. Here Here I say. If you've landed and HAVEN'T had an accident they don't need the 30 mins previous.

People did warm the government before they introduced the law.

[Vref+5]

My company had an incident several years ago whe the tape was pulled and analysed by BASI. Crew were scared stiff because they had been bagging the heirachy.

Transcript came back" Blah blah" etc, and then the section where the bagging occurred was "unitelligible".

Well done, looking after the boys (and girls of course)!

[onya]

Heard a story recently about a Brisbane based operator. Apparently one of the aircraft that does night freight had been heavy landed and the 'safety manager' (said very much so tongue in cheek) of the operation had the CVR/FDR tape pulled and sent off to somewhere to be examined. Casa apparently got wind of it and tore the 'safety manager' (said very much so tongue in cheek) a new spot out of which to excrete. Would suggest that CASA have to authorise the removal of such equipment for examination. Go figure.

Onya:suspect:

[Time Bomb Ted]

Thanks Creampuff.

I understand from a very well placed source in ATSB, that they are actually taking a pilot to court for tampering with the CVR.

Be Warned Folks. It is a very serious matter. Anyway if you pull the Circuit Breaker, and the CVR is on the MEL then "You ain't goin' no where baby." If you do and CASA finds out, then I have no sympathy for you.

You need a better solicitor than the DPP brief to fight for you if you end up on the wrong side of it all.

TBT

[Dehavillanddriver]

Pulling the CB for the CVR is different to erasing the CVR after a flight has been successfully completed.

That said I couldn't be bothered - but then I don't give a toss what the bosses think of what I say in a conversation with another pilot.

[Offshore Tiger]

Never mind the CVR, what about management's secret little video camera that is watching you 24/7 ?:ok:

[curfew2]

in that case i had better fly with pants on next time