AEF....how many users now?

[Ray Darr]

Is AEF (A.E. Forum.net) surviving? Or will there be a switch to another forum board? Not pot-stirring...just curious how it will work with the new format.

Cheers,
R.D.

[Left Coaster]

Count this guy as one who won't read it anymore. Too many I hate WJ/AC/Jetsgo threads. It was fun while it lasted but I just don't have the inclination to watch the decline of Canadian aviation anymore. My "T shirt" drawer is full!:D

[Ray Darr]

Howdy Dinosaur-Trucker... ;)

Besides the AC/WJ, or Regional / Mainline never-ending tennis game(s), I'm trying to gauge the situation on the pay-as-you-go set up that AEForum has gone to now. Any comments from anyone else?

Cheers...see ya on "The Numbers" sometime, L.C., eh?!

~R.D.

[McDoo the Irish Navigator]

Hey fellas;

I guess it would cost us money to find out. Personally, I'm not that curious.

The AEF had degenerated into a name calling match. I had endured two attacks on my person, after genuine attempts at humour, albeit satirical ones.
In a previous life, I had taken the journey to the anger prepicice, and returned safely, so I know what streams of random angry thought look like, when pen is put to paper, so to speak.

At the risk of plagiarizing my learned colleague, my T-shirt drawer is also full. Now when I need a thrill, I look in Coco's drawers :=

McDoo

[Left Coaster]

Hey Ray, drop me a PM when ya can...
LC

[GearDoor]

I thought you were supposed to get two weeks "free". After one week, you still had so submit your credit card for the second week. I kind of miss it however. Nowhere else to hear any AC/Jazz, Westjet or JetsGo rumors.

GD

[betaboy]

My free trial expires next week. Same old WJ vs. AC stuff, but a much lesser posting frequency. Now showing "We have 4262 registered members."

Don't think I'm ready to give them (or any other pay forum) my cash quite yet.

The top thread on Monday evening started with this article:

==========================================


Canada’s Most Respected Cheaters


by Jim Stanford, CAW economist


Earlier this year, KPMG released its annual ranking of Canada’s “most respected corporations.” Surprisingly, the silver medal went to WestJet. “Today, corporate reputation matters more than ever,” said KPMG partner Bill Dillabough in announcing the results.

As a union economist, I never understood WestJet’s success in this ranking. The airline’s CEO was worth something like $100 million at fiscal year-end, while its workers get sub-average wages and have no pension plan. What’s to respect about a company which models its income distribution practices on the Industrial Revolution?

After reading the KPMG fine print, however, it all became clear. The ranking is based on a poll of CEOs, not a poll of Canadians. “Aha,” I thought. Extracting committed labour effort from workers while paying them poorly and offering no pensions: now there’s a neat trick that other CEOs (most of whom are not worth $100 million) will indeed respect, and probably emulate. Whether it deserves respect from the rest of the human race, however, is another matter.

Alas, if the poll were conducted this week the results would be rather different. WestJet’s reputation has been dragged through the mud again, with revelations (not proven in court) it snooped confidential information on Jetsgo (its low-cost competitor), in addition to hacking similar data from Air Canada. Dillabough’s words may prove prophetic, if not in the way WestJet’s spin-doctors had hoped.

Actually, the worst news for WestJet lately has not been revelation of corporate espionage, it’s been lousy financial results. First-half profits were down by half, and the profit margin (as a share of revenue) fell to its lowest ever. Load factor (the proportion of seats filled by paying passengers) is the fundamental measure of airline efficiency, and on this score Air Canada is now creaming WestJet – by eight percentage points over the first six months. WestJet’s traffic is lagging its rapid capacity expansion, so its own efficiency is falling.

WestJet is squeezed on one side by a reinvigorated Air Canada (which still dominates high-revenue premium and international routes), and on the other by discounters copying WestJet’s business model (just as WestJet itself copied Southwest Airlines). WestJet responds by moving upscale (with new planes, high-tech TVs, and other amenities), but this boosts costs – up by a third this year, while Air Canada’s fall dramatically.

Canada’s airline industry has been a financial killing field since deregulation in 1987: not a single airline has demonstrated sustained profitability, and dozens have gone bankrupt. Some argued WestJet was the exception; I was always doubtful. This company is now foundering on the same rocks of reckless overexpansion and ruthless competition that destroyed those before it.

And as WestJet starts looking less like a winner, its business plan will start falling apart like an old jetliner. Consider its low-wage employment strategy. One way WestJet kept its people happy while paying them little was through discretionary profit-sharing payouts. But these have been cut by 60 percent – a loss of $600 income per employee over the first six months of this year.

Among other contract changes, CAW members took a temporary 2.5 percent wage cut, lasting two years, as part of the final restructuring deal at Air Canada. That will also cut their income by about $600 every six months (and their wages were higher to start with). How ironic that CAW members at a near-bankrupt airline protected more of their income than workers at a supposed model of free-enterprise success. Meanwhile, thanks to good union strategizing and a sympathetic judge, Air Canada workers didn’t lose a dollar of pensions – while WestJet workers still have none at all.

What about WestJet’s vaunted employee share ownership plan, under which 87 percent of WestJet workers spend an average 13 percent of their hard-earned, below-average wages purchasing WestJet shares? Sadly, their investment losses on WestJet shares (which are down 40 percent this year) have only added to their effective wage cut. So don’t be surprised if those little ditties they sing on WestJet flights start sounding a tad less cheerful in coming months. And don’t be surprised if WestJet workers start demanding something a bit more reliable in the way of future compensation.

Exploiting, spying and cheating may not hurt WestJet’s reputation with the CEOs who get to vote in the KPMG poll (after all, lots of CEOs do those things). But lousy profits will. Either way, today’s WestJet just don’t get no respect.

Jim Stanford is a big Rodney Dangerfield fan; a version of this column appeared in the Globe and Mail.

[Left Coaster]

As I said above (horn tooting insert here!) the decline of Canadian aviation is effectively lowering the once great job of flying for a living down somewhere back before the industrial revolution. I particularly enjoyed the "unionist" shot at crooked CEO's, anybody ever worked for one? I think most of the displaced pilots (Canadian's in this case) might be able to say yes. Poor WJ, the bubble may be bursting as we watch, and to those who asked Clive at a rally a while back, "What will you do once your business plan reaches the place where expansion costs out grow your profits?" Way to go, you picked it, sell your stock boys and girls, it's the only cash you may get out of your $100 million CEO...(Clive couldn't answer the question by the way, he just sat there with a silly grin on his face.):O
HARMONY, Jetsgo, Skyservice, C3 etc all have or had, the same way of using up the cash on highly paid CEO's or their cronies/consultors and not their hard working employees and still they get away with it. Sad story. :{

[Safety Guy]

Actually, alot of the backstabbing BS is gone from the AEForum. No, not all of it, but the discourse has been generally more civilized.

Some of the bitterness shown above is pretty sad.

[Left Coaster]

Actually, it's not bitterness, more like a sad resignation to the fact that the industry in Canada, has been whip sawed, downgraded, and fooled by tricky operators to a level where one is expected to accept lower pay for technical, proffessional work. (Look at the US, same deal). WJ employees are going to have to face up to the fact that the extra $$ won't always be there. Read the column above, (Globe) it says it all. Most of the posters on this thread have enough experience in Canada to recognise that the more operators like the ones mentioned above get away with what they call pay, the more it gets accepted as the norm. It's not bitterness, just a comment on the state of the industry.
LC

[McDoo the Irish Navigator]

Fellow aviators;

I refer to the above posting by betaboy. PPRUNE disallows the reposting of articles published elsewhere on he net. Mostly because of the space it takes up, but also because we are assumed to be literate adults capable of purusing the periodicals and the internet on our own.
If you have something of interest you'd like to share, by all means, post a hyperlink to said article.
I'll allow it this time, with an observation.
The anger and jealousy seeths from the screen. London will not allow this to go the way of the AEF.
If you need an opinion of Westjet from someone who works there, I'll provide you with 5000 references.Most will say they like Westjet just fine, warts and all.

McDoo

[Left Coaster]

Dear Capt Mcdoo...
If I have unwittingly portrayed any anger or any other emotion here about WJ or other airline, I am sorry. Not intending to show any favouritism(s) to any Canadian company, I only meant to establish a trend. I have enough time in to be able to speak reasonably about how it looks, and did not (without much luck apparently) mean to pick on any particular airline. My only intention was to point out the well made points the economist from the CAW made. I am not a serious supporter of an over (or under) represented group, but you must admit that he makes an interesting point if one wishes a debate. Certainly it made a good read...
LC:(

[McDoo the Irish Navigator]

Left Coaster;

No apologies are necessary.
My main point was the excessive bandwidth that Danny et al. do not approve of.
I have to be careful not to allow my bias toward Westjet interfere with my moderating duties.
I will say this however, WJ employees are very happy with the savings plans in place and the return on their investment so far.

Back to this forum, I single out no one when I say, I will not allow it to turn into the brouhaha that the AEF turned into. It is not our right to criticize the career paths of others. The mutual disrespect that was the hallmark of the AEF is not welcome here.

Cheers:
McDoo

[betaboy]

McDoo,

Actually, a good policy you have there. However, I posted the entire article because 1) most people would not have access to it on the AEF because of its new mandatory user pay policy, original topic of this thread, and 2) it is not available on the Globe & Mail without paying a fee.

Contents of the article not necessarily my opinion. Sorry if I offended you.

[Left Coaster]

No worries, I have many good friends at WJ and they love it. Those who didn't left with no hard feelings. I was only curious as to how the future looked financially for those who maybe thought that the train of cash was going to last a bit longer. It's the same for Jet Blue in the states and a few carriers in the EU/UK. The lowering of salaries to keep a company solvent is a fact of life for the so called legacy carriers and maybe called the great "correction" in fact. The article was not easy to find and the bandwidth was a lot. However it did start a nice debate about the state of the industry in Canada. Leblanc and others have made a fortune off of the employee who only wants to work and he cares really very little about how they feel as a contributer to the company bottom line. Tossing profit share which gets taxed at a high rate and allowing a share purchase might seem generous but it really only covers the fact that the salary level is quite a bit lower than other carriers. I know that I will catch a fair bit of flack for this but then it's one man's opinion only. Thanks for the understanding.
LC