15 years on, have we had some interesting jobs or what????

[308rooter]

Some 15 years ago, the cream of Australian aviators ventured forth to look for greener pastures and looking back over those years I wonder how we rate our experiences. I have had some ups and downs, but now find myself with the most wonderful partner and two of the best kids a man could ever hope for.
What are some of the other guys who wore the white hats experiences?

[air-hag]

Why don't you just say "wife"??? What's this "partner" crap all the time?

Or is it one of those marriages (recently legalised)?

:ok:

[tipsy]

Here we go ;)

Wind up alert:yuk:

The "we was robbed" mob are at it again :{

The clever "cream" quit so they could effect change. :ok:

tipsy:bored:

[Romeo Tango Alpha]

Tipsy, get your knickers out of a knot. It's NOT a wind-up, so I think it YOU who must get over it.

Regarding the cream comment, well, yes, I agree! Out of all the "returnees", I can only name 12 or so who I consider to be EXCELLENT pilots, the remainder being opportunists and those that knew within themselves they couldn't 'make it' anywhere else besides where they had already 'made it'. I know 5 patently DANGEROUS pilots who are now Captains on Qantas Domestic.

As much as a lot of you 'returnee lovers' hate to admit it, what was left here were a lot of dregs - as I said, only a handful rate 'up there'.

I moved onto MUCH bigger and BETTER things, and am grateful for that! I never even CONTEMPLATED returning, even when the OK was given.

I am perpetually amused by the 'heroes' reactions to such postings, with wind up alerts, please Moderator ban this person, and similar remarks, but my all time favourite retort by the heroes is when they know they are defeated they pick on your spelling and grammar in posts, and pretend to be offended by it. :yuk:

[tinpis]

As much as a lot of you 'returnee lovers' hate to admit it, what was left here were a lot of dregs - as I said, only a handful rate 'up there'.

What was the ratio in Ansett returnees I wonder?

[The_Cutest_of_Borg]

the cream of Australian aviators

I would challenge that on every level if I could be bothered... and no I wasn't involved in the dispute...

[Disguise Delimit]

Get over it, you lot!!

I bet you all voted for Gough and were upset when he got the treatment he deserved too.

[OzExpat]

Oh dear. :{ This thread started out so well too.

I wasn't involved in the events that have been alluded to because I was already in PNG, getting shot at by rebels (and, sometimes by overly excited soldiers! :eek: ) around Bougainville. I'm sure that many people have stories to tell from the last 15 years, whether or not they were involved in the said previously alluded-to events.

Probably won't get very many people posting those experiences now tho. :sad:

[greybeard]

Well now, let's get it back on "track"

A year in France, 2 in Belgium on F-28, 10 in SIA on L-31 and A-310.

Best operational fun I ever had.

Living O/S had its moments, mostly good, some adventures we could have done without ( 2 Aussies in a Frech rego car lost in Genoa in the dark and rain comes to mind), Missed the Kids, Dad passed on, the house was wrecked by the tennants but is still here, as are we, sorting it out.

Local Companies still think I am worth using as Simulator Instructor or Supervisory Captain, both part time.

The sky was the deepest blue today, mowed the grass, pulled some weeds, pork roast in the wood oven, beer after I wash off the garden, passed the ATPL medical this week stress test et all.

Still have a dislike for the xxxxbs to the third generation, but it doesn't fill my waking moments, their fate is of little interest really.

Flying has been good to me, hope I have and still am contributing, trainees still pass so must be close to the game even after 43 yrs. Enjoy passing over Aust as a Driver/Jumpseat/ Passenger as the tasks take me.

sui generus


:ok:

[air-hag]

"The Cream"....

HAHAHAHHAAAAHAHAAAHAHAHAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!! :p ;) := :E :yuk:

::hmm: :zzz:

The cream... hehe I like that. THE CREAM... of Australias Year 10 High School-educated, self-funded (anyone with money can get their "ticket"), grammatically-challenged, semi-literate (Can't even spell Nebraska), industry-wrecking airline pilot scene where just about anyone who sticks around long enough will get into the airline and eventually be promoted due to the entrenched seniority-based system. The Cream, Ladies and Gentlemen!!!!

The Cream left and went overseas due to their impeccable sense of Ethics.

Tell us more about the white hats. Did The Cream join forces with The Klan up there in BF, Alabama?

The Cream.... hahahaaaaaahahaaaaaaaaa........!!

I like it!! :ok:


:zzz:

[Eastwest Loco]

I do despair our loss of a wondeful system.

The ability to interline baggage, the full service pay for service system, being able to check in once for up to 4 flights.

This is of course still available on QF mainline, but as for Jetscar and DJ, not possible. It is however available in a limited way on DJ/Rex.

The culture seems to have died in the butt. Fot the fiirst time since I was a little kid growing up under the tail of a TAA DC4 Sunbird Service aeroplane infor overhaul at MEB, I can say that the airline industry is not a place I want to be.

It is sad, as I enjoyed my years there with a passion, and shed many a tear when loved aeroplanes departed and did shed bucketloads when that mother interfered Abeles glommed my beloved East West. I slunk off to the lounge away from everyone, but a very knowlegable spaniel and a 3 year old son very quickly found me and both crawled up on my knee.

It is scary to think how far the industry can descend on the domestic side before the terrain warning sounds.

Aircrew, groundies and all others involved deserve a far better deal than this.

As for being an alleged "hero or scab" - get over it. You are all professionals who reacted within the parameters that drove your lives at that time, and are all to be admired for your individual stands. It was not easy from either side, and the villians did not fly aeroplanes.

I can still remember seeing the first of the girls (Echo Whisky Bravo) land - first in after service resumed - and taking photos with a very long lens at the hold point. Photos were brilliant, but just good luck as tears obscured focus.

EWL

Maintain the rage, but remember your mates.

[air-hag]

I thought we'd hear a little more about The Cream.

Where's 308?

I wanna hear about The Cream.

[Eastwest Loco]

I am amazed and pleased by the lack of "bites" at my last post. Maybe there is hope for us "old timers" yet.

I certainly hope so.

The future of this industry is in the hands of the old heads, no matter from which side of the fence they might be.

Use the force well Luke.

Best all

EWL

[Old Smokey]

I enjoyed 23 wonderful years in Australian aviation up to 1989. For the 15 years OUTSIDE of Australia beyond then, I have achieved far, far more satisfaction and reward in a first class airline than I could have ever dreamed of in Australia, pre or post 1989. For me, I'm sorry that it didn't happen 10 years earlier.

Frankly, I couldn't give a damn about the rights and wrongs, or the good guys and the bad guys, I just enjoy the company that I keep, and, quite frankly, am glad that the 'heros' didn't follow us and stuff up a perfectly good thing.

[MkVIII]

Get over it, you lot!!

I bet you all voted for Gough and were upset when he got the treatment he deserved too.

Who with half a neuron would have voted for that quasi-communist turd? :yuk: On the same hand, who will vote for Latham in the up-coming election? Latham is a Gough wannabe, and failing even at that! :yuk: :yuk: :yuk:

As to 15 years, a LOT changed. Australian aviation is NOTHING like it used to, or SHOULD be. Very sad state now.

Always remember those that stabbed you in the back.

[Nil defects]

You`re makin me homesick Greybeard!

[HIALS]

Gee - 15 years already. I only enjoyed 8 months in Australian airlines before leaving in disgust in 89. So, with hindsight I don't think I have anything to compare my present situation with.

What I do know, and did know even then - (young as I was) was that what Hawke/Abeles/Crean/Kelty & Murdoch + the sc*bs did was wrong for our occupation (friends & colleagues).

These last 15 years have seen me flying all sorts of Fokker n Boeing n Airbus. I have witnessed aviation on all Continents. I have managed to live in Europe and Asia. I watched the 'Tampa Affair' with shocked and embarrassed horror. I think that Gough (bless him) did what :mad::mad: thought was right. I think :mad::mad: offers a better example than either Hawke or Howard. I rejoiced in the fall of the Berlin Wall (on the spot in Berlin). I observed the incipient signals of genocide in Kigali on a charter in the 90's and flew, at night, over the pitch black countryside of Bosnia wondering all the time about the wretched souls in Srebrenica and Mostar. I spoke with medical staff in Riyadh who said the casualty figures announced by the Government understated the true injuries caused by Scud missiles during the first Gulf War. I saw the gutted terminal and strafed facilities in Kuwait a couple of months later. I watched the second aircraft fly into the World Trade Tower, live on TV, while sitting in a hotel on 5th Avenue in New York. I have observed the western world turn a blind eye to the outrageous treatment of the Palestinians. And, perhaps more disturbingly, I have been saddened to watch the war on Iraq unfold like a pre-ordained farce (despite widespread opposition) and with it the spectacle of the USA diminishing the wonderful achievements of the UN and deriding the benefits of co-operation with Europe through disparaging talk and cheap insults. (An honest opponent is often your best friend.) More positively, I enjoyed the Athens Olympics and felt shame at how gleefully some Australians predicted a debacle. I have also observed a continuous reduction in the conditions of employment for pilots in Australia. I have watched as the commentators on this forum have grown increasingly rude, abusive and desperate.

It now seems to me that Australia exhibits a tendency toward nasty, churlish and aggressive attitudes. Aviation in Australia appears backward, small and unfriendly.

I'm ever so glad I left in 89.

[TheNightOwl]

EWL and HIALS - at the risk of incurring epithets from the usual sources, I whole-heartedly agree with all you say.

Good onya, both of you!

Kind regards,

TheNightOwl.:ok: :ok:

[mjbow2]

Well said HAILS...

In '89 I was still popping pimples! But for the last 7 years, the tall poppy syndrome, arrogance and ignorance of the Australian aviation fraternity have prompted me to stay abroad.

The industry in oz IS "backward, small and unfriendly."

MJB

[CAPTAIN WOOBLAH]

HIALS and mates,

Well said, I could'nt agree more!

The Fokkers in Borneo were great fun not to mention Lex and his cultural tours.

P.S. Love to down a Tiger or two with the Borneo boys one day soon.

Wooblah.

[FarQ2]

HIALS,mjbow2 and Capt Woolbah you couldn't have said it better:

the industry in Oz IS "backward, small minded and unfriendly" :8 's all of it. :ok:

Which Fokkers you guys on about, I was in the "vanguard group" for the 50 intro into Borneo -------- great memories of our pad in Likas and many Tigers sunk out on Sapi and at Travellers Inn. :E

[stable approach]

Ahh! Nostalgia ain't what it used to be!
Happy hour at the Tanjung Aru Sunset Bar, followed by dinner at the Diamond Restaurant. A gloriously cold beer at the Tavern in Kuching, while discussing the morning's "longhouse approach" at Sibu.
Those were the days!

[308rooter]

The longhouse(wasnt it Uncle Charlies and the mango tree the FAF?) has long gone, Stable , as has the old USS SIBU, and Bay five, if you remember it. The airport is now about 10 miles east, conveniently located on land a govt. minister owned and perfectly located for a met students' study of reasons of the formation of tropical morning fog. It is reached by 25km's of undulating bitumen that was, incidently, laid by a govt. ministers' friends ' company. It also has an ILS now so it really takes the challenge out of those arrivals after a night out "culturally exploring Bintulu" or 90 miles further into in trouble, that house of ill repute , the ranch in Miri, which is really only a bad place because the morning's departure time is earlier. I think..Never the less SBW still has some existing charm, who could forget the Li Hua, an experience no one should miss, or the delightful Kingwood's "haunted room", the waterfront delights..well the list goes on and Gawai is coming( well isnt it?)
Capt Wooblah no need to cook the mooblah, minum tapai lah, bah!!

[CAPTAIN WOOBLAH]

Memories,

What fun, darts at the Tavern with those Scandahooligans. Those Iban wenches and Tapai and Tuak, Bah!

Remember Bono's batchelor party in KK. His Dad was a BKI based 737 driver.

Who could forget Donnie Osman he is still in KCH making a mess of things and playing politics.

Yes SBW is gone replaced by a new AP and so is BTU the newie is down toward Tatau river and yes 747's can get in and out of BTU. who would have thought eh!

Well guys lets orgamanise a reunion. What do you blokes reckon?

Regards to all,

Wooblah.

[BLO MOI]

HIALS hate to break it to you buddy..
but i work for a major airline in aust.. im neither desperate , angry or bitter.. im having a ball.. paid well with excellent career opportunites, sure we have hiccups but all in all im happy with my lot.The thing is, if I wanted to fly O/S i could, quite easily, in Europe or Asia....
but the fact remains that the majority of Aussie pilots flying offshore dont have a choice.. they either cant get a job in Oz or gave it away....
And those 'experiences' you speak of just confirms what im saying.. coz all aside Australia is still a great place to live..

[ys120fz]

airhag, I loved your post! Cream, indeed.

The only people in the aviation I have ever heard refer to THEMSELVES as cream have been headed for a serious fall, and in most cases I recall, have copped a fall.
Men in white hats?? Cream?? You didn`t mention having yourhand stuck down the front of your pants!

[relax737]

The men in white hats are SILENT on their experiences over the past 15 years!!!
Let there be no doubt they are setting the world on fire with their great expertise in aviation and imparting their vast reserves of knowledge, gained in the country with less than a hundred jet aircraft operating domestically, to the rest of the aviation challenged world.


Last time I saw someone in a white hat it was in Oxford Street Sydney so its no wonder they choose to be silent.

Are the cream afraid of the p***** bashers getting hold of them?

Well the industry might be small minded etc, but it's way ahead of where it was when you lot were in it so imagine how small minded it was then. The collective IQ of the aviation industryin Oz has been raised about ten fold with your departure. Men in white hats! m hahahahaha

airhag let's have some more of your humour. And YS120FZ I reckon you got it right as well.

[Gnadenburg]

Blo Moi

The only well paid job left in Australia is QF surely?

If your "major" airline is VB or Jetstar I suspect you like peanuts!

You could fly overseas quite easily at the moment. But the better jobs are still not so easy to get.

[relax737]

Gnadenburg,

I don't know who BM works for, but even if it's VB, it is still better paid than either major was prior to 89, probably even when projected at CPI for 15 years.

I think VB Capts are on about 160 pa now, and prior to 89 a 737 Capt in QF/AN was about 100-110. The base after the brawl was arrived at by giving the requested/required "no negotiation" pay rise of 29+% but requiring an increase of productivity of a similar amount. The post 89 Capt salary was 129 I think, giving a pre 89 of about 100K.
I know that pre 89i QF FO base was 62.

I agree that the better jobs aren't easy to get, and those are companies like Dragon, CX, Emirates where you must start as an FO. Companies that take direct entry Capts mostly aren;t big payers as they're the LCCs of the world.
There's a new one in the Pacific that is paying about 6.2 A$ before tax, and Atlas Blue in Morocco is 5.1 Euros,about the same. Not a lot of cash, but a lot more than Air Asia, and probably Tiger and Jetstar Asia.

Japan seems to be the exception for direct entry Capts I hear.

You know 308, I don'tr reckon anybody who didn't wear a white hat would have been good enough to make an approach to that airport on the govt ministers' land without an ILS. They'd have diverted or crashed.

[The Enema Bandit]

Fair dinkum, I reckon some of you lot should go down to Festival Hall and punch each other around the ring.

[LooseConnection]

Ignorance is bliss I guess relax737 it may interest you to know that those of us that chose to go OS for whatever reason in most circumstances are now financially far better off and operating equipment that we could have only dreamed of previously.

If you haven't operated outside of Oz then those of you who are quick to criticise have no credibility and I don't mean a "junket" to Denpassar or the "Shakey Isles".

Oz aviation is a protected environment which is struggling to keep up with worlds best practice both in infrastructure and services. With the exception of maybe BNE Oz does not have an airport which comes within "light years" of many OS destinations, SYD is a mess and MEL is dated, the International Arr/Dep at MEL is a "chicken shed" ! :ooh:

I would far sooner do what I'm doing now than a Domestic sector back home (which I did for 16yrs) at least I get to use the airspace efficiently. Never could work out why Airservices Oz see things as lines on charts and waste all the other usable airspace around them. Something to do with outdated proceedure I believe, but that's another story I guess. :ok:

[relax737]

Better get over it Old Smokey or get out of it. After AN fell over, they're all round the world and attempts by you guys to stop them from getting into the companies you're with will be futile.

I'm sure there are no scabs holding check positions anywhere in the world; theyjust wouldnt be good enough, or wearing white hats.

Imagine some loser telling an airline manager in Japan or China that he didn;t want somebody coming to the company because of a hiccup in Oz 15 years ago. You'd be show nthe door.

Of course they're not the gun operat orsyou guys were, but they get by using bits of string and mirrors.
Loose Connection, I've also worked overseas for quite a few years and can report that it's not much/any different from home. Few different procedures, wx patterns different, but flying is much the same the world over. You work with what you have and walk through the terminal building to get to the duty free shop. An dI too am infinitely better off financially than if I'd stayed home.

As for judging a place on its terminal???? I've seen some very ordinary international terminals in Africa and South America, but I fly an aircraft not a terminal building.

[Romeo Tango Alpha]

Geez Relax, you have a fixation with white hats dont you? Must be something Freudian in there somewhere...

Relax, take a look at your posts, and contemplate a few things you have mentioned. Look DEEP within yourself, and you may notice a trend...

OK, you probably don't understand. You see, you specifically mention China and Japan. Yes, very true that WE couldn't stop YOU lot (assuming you are one of THEM :yuk: ), but there ain't a whole heck of a lot of 89'ers in China or Japan - we went to THE OTHER airlines - SIA, CX, MAS, Emirates, Gulf, KLM, Lufthansa, Martinair, British Midlands, Royal Brunei.... I'll let you stew over the reason why you don't find many NON-THEM in China, Taiwan, Vietnam, Cambodia, and Japan.

YOU lot generally don't last too long in the airlines mentioned above because of inward pressure, assuming you got into such a mainstream airline in the first place. Good old AS didn't last too long flying Lear Jet's before he DEFECTED yet again to J*.... opportunist to the core!

In a lot of ways it is not we that must "get over it", it is your lot, who go through life petrified of a four letter word.

[Kaptin M]

Interesting jobs? You betcha!

Interesting places? I got to travel the WORLD, many times over, with food and accommodation paid....places that I could never have afforded (the time, nor the $$'s) to have visited, places I hadn't considered before, and places that I NEVER intended going to, but went anyway.
Europe, the Greek Islands, the Taj Mahal, on safari in Kruger National Park, ski-ing at Whistler, surfing in Hawaii, halibut in H Street, Anchorage (followed by a few more cold ones at a pole dancing pub), Universal Studios in L.A., scuba diving in the Maldives and Mauritius....and loads more.
And that was only the first 6 years, based in Singapore.

The next 12 months was a basing in Manila, followed by a few years living in Kuala Lumpur - with the occasional temporary basing in Phnom Penh, and the last 5+ years living in Japan.

Yes, there are the very few "non-cream" around, but they were ALWAYS in the minority anyway, and so remain insignificant.
However, like an oil slick, it only takes a small amount to spoil the existing status quo for everyone else - hence the need to "contain" them.
And they ARE being "contained" :ok:

[Wizofoz]

Interesting POV Kap,

Some time ago I accused you of trying to limit peoples job opertunitites if they fell in to the group you don't like. You threatened me with legal action, claiming that what I had accused you of was "The lowest act" someone could perpetrate.

Care to expand of this "containment"???

BTW, Three years on and I'VE done things and been places I would never have dreamed of.. and been "contained" to only getting three airline jobs (and more than one other offer) since AN went down...

[tinpis]

Could someone please tell me who or what a "Hero" is.
I have not spoken to anyone from airlines since 89 but would guess its something to do with an advert?

[Romeo Tango Alpha]

Wizofoz,
Interesting closing remark - one can read a lot into it!

You said, and I quote "BTW, Three years on and I'VE done things and been places I would never have dreamed of.. and been "contained" to only getting three airline jobs (and more than one other offer) since AN went down..."

OK, why have you had 3 jobs??? Couldn't you stick at one???? Did you have inwards and sidewards pressure forcing you out??? Itchy feet??? Tell us more. I personally have stayed in ONE job for 15 years...

Tinpis, hero is what we call Scab's so they don't get all offended and cry to the Woomeri. A four letter word is a four letter word...

[Wizofoz]

RTA,

Both the jobs I left I did so because of a combination of carreer and personal/family consideratios. I both cases I did so In accord with contractual obligations, and left on good terms with offers of future employment should I choose to return.

Now very happily employed in Europe (Amsterdam-Cologne today) with no intentins of going anywhere, though in todays market being in the same job for 15years usually means a lack of imagination or ability to progress...

[Romeo Tango Alpha]

being in the same job for 15years usually means a lack of imagination or ability to progress...

I guess so, but I cannot go any higher. Have YOU made it to SIP yet? (that's Check and Training Captain in the old-world of Australia).

[Kaptin M]

Three different employers in as many years!

Well that's just proves that the job market is wide open, for anyone who tends to think otherwise.
But on the personal side of things, Wiz, you might now understand that a psyche such as that, was probably what PREVENTED you from gaining employment in an airline, prior to "that year" - an "attitude" that would have shone through in the psychological tests, and interviews.

15years usually means a lack of imagination or ability to progress... What sort of "imagination" are we talking about??? I imagine the imagination you were imagining when you wrote that is the sort of "imagination" some pilots use in their log books, or to cover a shady past.
And as for being in the same job for 15years usually means a lack of...ability to progress... I don't believe I have heard a greater load of bs recently. Almost every pilot who joined an airline, and committed himself to THAT length of time in their sole employ, has found himself upgraded in either status, or type - or both.
It is those who WEREN'T ABLE to cut it, who have HAD to move on, to start over again.
....offers of future employment should I choose to return. Try pulling the other one, Wiz!!

[Wizofoz]

Try pulling the other one, Wiz!!

Kaptin M,

The above remark has the clear intent of suggesting I am lying. That is defamatory. Substantiate it or remove it.

The other remark you so gleefully latched on to was in response to this:-


OK, why have you had 3 jobs??? Couldn't you stick at one???? Did you have inwards and sidewards pressure forcing you out??? Itchy feet??? Tell us more. I personally have stayed in ONE job for 15 years...

Clearly an attempt to impugn me simply because I have voluntarily changed employment on two occasions, and I merely illustrated that ANYONES circumstances can be shown in a bad light.

I also note you have dodged my original question. If denying people employment is such a low act that suggesting you engaged in it prompted a threat to sue, exactly what form does this "Containment" take, and do you condemn those that purport to practice it?

BTW, I was accepted into the AN system BEFORE the dispute, under the same recruitment system that selected YOU.

[Romeo Tango Alpha]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Try pulling the other one, Wiz!!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Kaptin M,

The above remark has the clear intent of suggesting I am lying. That is defamatory. Substantiate it or remove it.



Kap's statement above does suggest you are lying - TO YOURSELF!

I 'spose you are now going to get all antsy-fantsy and throw a legal hissy fit because Kap challanged your resolve? Oh, DIDDUMS!

Defamatory????? Mate, you injured your reputation all by yourself!!!!!!! :p :p :p

You'd have a VERY hard time proving any intent in anything Kap said, but a sook like yourself will always try.

Now you think I tried to impugn you? So now a sarcastic request for information is an insinuation? Oh, fer Christ's sake! GET A LIFE DOUGHBOY!

Denial of employment. Hmmm. Cuts both ways. Qantas / TN and AN denied US employment - blacklisted. Hmmm. Now a lot of YOU were blacklisted in some airlines. It's an old biblical law - an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth. Live with it, MATE.

Go back to Luxair or whatever airline you work for making your life and the supposed life of your spouse so much nicer. PLEASE.

[Kaptin M]

Now you ARE trying to pull the other one, Wiz, and you run into a credibility issue when you state, "I was accepted into the AN system BEFORE the dispute", because you also admitted in June, wrt your gaining a slot in Ansett during "that year", the following:it was watching my lifelong dream of being an airline pilot dissappear before my eyes due to circumstances not of my making, then being offered a chance to resurect that dream.

Yes, the jobs have been interesting, but so also has been the way we have seen airline management changing - from becoming competent, honest, and ethical employers who expected the same values in their employees - to (in many cases) lying, greedy, and unethical.

Pilots were once treated with some respect - along with other employees - because of their willingness, in general, to give that extra.
Today, employers such as Ryan Air, abuse their pilots in a way that makes me wonder why ANYONE would bother giving O'Leary a second thought.
But pilots being pilots, see only "bigger, newer, faster a-e-r-o-p-l-a-n-e......must have", and try to justify it as a "stepping stone job".

This has been one of the BIGGEST changes I've noticed over the past 15 years.
Pilots need a union to protect them from THEMSELVES - 15 years ago saw the beginning of the removal of that protection, and it has gained momentum ever since!

[Gnadenburg]

Too true Kapt M.

But the biggest culprit Virgin Blue. The decline initiated by those pilots has manifested itself into a spine chilling, flow on effect- Jetstar, Jetstar Asia and QF.

Now we have Virgin Blue trying to get into areas of Far Eastern Asia and under cut traditional bastions of sound wages and conditions. Add to that not an unsubtantial amount of Virgin Blue pilots "attempting" ( pass rates low ) to vote with their feet and flock to better paying airlines abroad. Without attempting to clean up at their old backyard first.

The ex AN/ TAA 89 team have created the definitive pilot cancer at Virgin Blue.

Blackbanning.

It is very real in my experience. I have noted in one airline where there is only one 89er but the ban in force.

Not exclusive to 89ers. Pilots who were locked out or losers in other disputes apply the bannings vigorously on any guilty parties.

Selfishly, I don't have to suffer the pilot management fools from AN anymore, thankfully.

[Old Smokey]

relax737,

You seem to have a profound problem interpreting the English language.

Several weeks ago I made a post in this forum indicating my happiness with the way my life overseas turned out after the '89 dispute, and went on to say that, for me, I wish that it had happened 10 years sooner. So far pretty inoffensive.

I then went on to say - "Frankly, I couldn't give a damn about the rights and wrongs, or the good guys and the bad guys, I just enjoy the company that I keep, and, quite frankly, am glad that the 'heros' didn't follow us and stuff up a perfectly good thing."

You seemed to find that pretty provocative, so much so that you responded with -
Better get over it Old Smokey or get out of it. After AN fell over, they're all round the world and attempts by you guysto stop them getting into the companies you're with will be futile.
I must be a slow learner relax737, but just which part do I have to get over? I'm extremely happy with my career development and other opportunities that came my way, so it can't be that.

I'm EXTREMELY happy that the 'heros' didn't follow us and stuff everything up. We came overseas voluntarily (we could have gone back you know). The AN unemployed came against their wishes 12 to 13 years later in insignificantly smaller numbers, and posed absolutely no threat to our well established positions as Instructors, Check Captains, Fleet Managers, Operations Managers, Company representatives to Boeing/Airbus/Regulatory authority, and Oh!, even a few line pilots. I guess it can't be that that I have to get over, I managed to 'score' 4 of those positions

I also don't have to get over the fact that quite a few ex AN pilots got into our company. Oh my gosh relax737, I even trained 5 of them. 4 of them weren't especially bad or especially good, quite average on the whole, the other one I recommended for promotion to Check Captain. We got along quite well, the only problem was with the 'local' non-Australian guys who couldn't understand why I'd have anything to do with them.

I am aware that there were some (a much smaller number than you might think) of our number who tried to persuade management to not hire certain individuals. In many cases the management DID listen. One such stirrer was shown the door because he went over the top. Most of us avoided such actions like the plague, not wanting to be labeled in the same way as other vile scum who would perpetrate such acts in a southern continent. Nobody was locked out, nor did I try to lock any out, so I don't have to get over that.

Maybe we're in the same company, maybe I'll be doing your next Base Check or Line Check, if so you have my absolute guarantee (like the 5 others) that you will receive exactly the same evaluation as any other, I don't have to get over that either.

So relax737, exactly what is it that I have to get over? Methinks that YOU have a VERY VERY great deal to get over.

[Romeo Tango Alpha]

Aw, c'mon OS, old friend - you are being as ever far too polite and congenial! (this is Dunnunda and Godzone after all!!!). I guess you are taking to heart what that great man we both admire once said - "You walk through ghosts" :p

As ever, you show your truly professional side - a professionalism that so many here could heartily aspire to, and sorely need! I am sure if the roles were reversed that the self wollower's would not offer you the same professional courtesy and judgement.

We may disagree somewhat in regards as how to treat "them" (the sadist runs deep in me from my mother's side of the family - the side that holds a grudge until death!), but in the long run, our outlook is remarkably similar.

In all honesty, I see a lot of that reverred Captain we both admire VERY much in you sir!

Anyway, as we were saying about scabs....

:p ;) :D :ok:

[Old Smokey]

Romeo Tango Alpha,


You've convinced me that I must truly be a slow learner. I have no recall of ever saying anything about scabs, in fact I've studiously avoided using the word. Perhaps you're confusing it with something else I said.

Did it go something like this ?

You only live twice -
The first was when you had the opportunity to be a scab,
The second was when you decided that integrity mattered most, and you DIDN'T

[Laikim Liklik Susu]

Old Smokey, why is it that someone with your record of impartiality and fair-mindedness allowed some loser like reflux737 drag you down into his cesspool? It's obvious from your posts that you did indeed 'get over it' 15 years ago, well my friend rest contented that a traitor never gets over his or her guilt and takes it to the grave.

Romeo Tango Alpha, do you only maintain your rage until death? Read up on Australian Industrial history, the curse of the traitor goes on to their sons, and their son's sons. The mark of Cain is never erased.

[Romeo Tango Alpha]

OS, having known you a few decades now, I acknowledge you are too polite.

My last quip was merely a rhetorical "hindsight" remark - a throw away pun. No intent.

Now, Laikum Liklik Susu is more my style (especially regards to his breast-icular preference!), but impending old age has not mellowed me.

Having said that, I see some of the old fire in your closing lines.

[Old Smokey]

relax737,

I'm still waiting for your reply regarding just what it is that I have to get over. It would be nice to close this one off so that I can get back to some debates with NORMAL people.

[redsnail]

While I wasn't involved with any dispute and neither was my fiance, moving to the UK has brought some pretty interesting benefits.
Sure, the lifestyle isn't the same as in Oz nor is it as cheap to live. However, last month we spent 5 days exploring Paris, we've just come back from a great trip to Italy and now planning a ski trip in Norway.
Workwise hasn't panned out (yet) as I had hoped but something will come up I am sure. Checkers has done pretty well.

For what ever reason people have for shifting overseas it's the personal attitude you have that will determine if you enjoy the experience or not. We could either sit at home (UK) and whinge about the weather or book a cheap ticket online and fly to somewhere interesting in Europe.

[relax737]

and Iwill reply old smoker. I ve been busy with other things, and will have to go back through a couple of pages of posts to find the reference. Please sit tight.

[Laikim Liklik Susu]

And I am sure it will be incredibly insightful too.

Waiting with baited (P-EW!) breath. :zzz:

[relax737]

Old smokey, old friend, I suggest that the following quote from your post on page 1 of this thread would indicate that you have something you should get over, a weight bearing down on your shoulders, and one that you are experiencing difficulty handling.


"......quite frankly, am glad that the 'heros' didn't follow us and stuff up a perfectly good thing."

I commend you on your position not taking your immaturities out on $cabs who followed you. I'm very happy to hear that you are sufficiently professional togive them passes in yo r role as check captain andeven recommended one be promoted, even if they are not amongst the ranks of the cream of Australian aviators, nor wear white hats. Very benevolent of you.

Thanks you for your kind words liklik suksuk P-EW??? you've lost me there. Maybe it's something like the Masons' handshake, known only to those in the inner circle of the cream of Australian aviators. No need to elaborate if that's the case. I will understand.

Romeo Tanga Alpha, we need to make something quite clear here, and that is that I am notone onf THEM!!! Sorry to shatter your illusions/delusions. I had nothing to do with the events of 89 other than as an obsever and note that it was a lost cause, for the pilots, ofrom day 1.

It appears that your philosophy is to brand anyone who opposes your view as one of THEM. It is a very introverted view, and one which you must overcome if you are to mature.

[Romeo Tango Alpha]

Bugger LLS, you were right - a damned pathetic let down retort. Waste of bandwidth. Ho hum.

P-EW I am sure refers to LLS' baited breath - as in POO, stink, all that.

I still don't get you white hat quip, unless you are somehow classifying people with the Ku Klux Clan or some other introverted crap.

I still cannot see what OS is supposedly got to get over in regards to them not following us. Your answer makes as much sense as a waterproof teabag. As Pauline says, "Please explain" How is his stating that WE are glad that MOST $cabs didn't follow us a burden on ANY of us? Sheesh MATE, you have to learn to read and understand better. Or are you still learning your ops manual via reader cassettes?

Mature. OH boy, can of worms. Mature..... hmmmm. OK, maturity involves learning that one must have morals (strike one against most $cabs), integrity (strike 2 against ALL $cabs), honour (MAJORE strike 3 against each and every one of them!), loyalty (need I keep striking....), and thinking BEYOND oneself (OK, strike 5!)

Maturity supposedly also means learning to forgive and forget. You can NEVER forgive or forget TRAITORS. White feathers...

One day I shall sit down and tell you the WHOLE story of 1989 and what it did to us ALL - I don't mean just we pilots, I mean AUSTRALIA.

Maturity invovles looking at the BIG picture. 89 started the rapid decline we see in Australia's aviation industry today. And the heroes just added the lard needed to start the perpetual motion sled moving.

[Old Smokey]

relax737,

I spend my spare time cruising Pprune's technical pages, and once, just once, dipped my toe into the murky pit of industrial relations. This I did to say how happy that I was with the way my post 1989 career had turned out, and used the phrase that you found so provocative, to wit -

"......quite frankly, am glad that the 'heros' didn't follow us and stuff up a perfectly good thing."

After querying (sincerely), just what did I have to get over, you now reply with -

your post on page 1 of this thread would indicate that you have something you should get over, a weight bearing down on your shoulders, and one that you are experiencing difficulty handling.

Huh? I have to get over the fact that I'm glad, i.e. happy? Well, it may disturb some that it all made me happy (yes, I can imagine that). The fact that I'm happy, oh so very happy to NOT be flying in Australia, is not a weight bearing down on my shoulders, and one that I am experiencing difficulty handling. I doubt that any sane person would have trouble handling happiness, regardless of the colour of their hat. It seems that by your standards, happiness is a negative thing - check your sanity relax737.

Further to my remark of being glad that the 'heros' didn't follow us, I've made the same quip to the ex AN guys I've trained (you assign the hat colour), they saw the funny side of it. We got the goodies first, I was glad of that, they knew it too. More of them will in the fullness of time.

You have a strange definition of following, If I went to the Opera House, and you also visited it 13 years later, would that be construed as following? You're clutching at straws relax737, let them go and save your sanity.

Your following paragraph was downright insulting. Here it is piece by piece, with my comments -

You said - "I commend you on your position not taking your immaturities out on $cabs who followed you" - I am not immature, I'm rather old and conservative. Why would I take anything out on the scabs that followed me ? For one thing, they didn't follow me, and for another, I made my decision, they made theirs, and I believe in free choice. I could NEVER have made the decision that they made, it is totally alien to my character. I don't respect their decision, but then I don't respect the decision of people to vote Labor either. Why do you call them $cabs? Scab in the context applied is commonly used amongst English speaking peoples to describe the actions taken by the 'returnees'. Perhaps adding the dollar sign is a Freudian slip on your part associating them with Judas, the paid traitor. I made no such association.

You said - ".....you are sufficiently professional togive them passes in yo r role as check captain andeven recommended one be promoted" - Why not ?, they were to that standard. One is either professional, or not, there is no "sufficient" standard of professionalism when it comes to pilot assessment. I would have taken no part in any attempt to lock them out, as I've said before, THAT is the Australian way well established by the airlines after the dispute. No, I didn't export that Australian disease with me.

You said -"even if they are not amongst the ranks of the cream of Australian aviators, nor wear white hats.". Not my words, they're yours, or at least borrowed from other posts. You seem to have a fascination with labels and hat colours. I recall saying that I recommended one for promotion, by your set of labels I guess that that makes him kind of creamy. Relax737, consistancy is NOT one of your strong points.

You said - "Very benevolent of you" - I say very insulting of you, benevolence or malevolance has nothing to do with professionalism in aviation or any other profession. In this business, people are judged by how they perform operationally. Perhaps another Freudian slip from you, the benevolent pat on the back for the good boy or girl.

You said -"it was a lost cause, for the pilots, ofrom day 1" - At last we agree on something. I truly did get over it by about 9.00 PM on 24th August 1989, I had to, I had to go flying the next morning at 0830.

The White Hat / Black Hat gangs (you assign the hats to the group of your choice) will be pleased to know that I'm leaving the Dunnunda & Godzone forums forever. I'll stick to the technical stuff from now on. This is my last input to this discussion.

You have done me one favour, you've reminded me that there's a lot of sick people out there, I was truly impartial, and you've done a good job of working on making one more enemy for the $cabs (sorry, Scabs).

If I were a scab, I'd distance myself as far from you as possible.

[Laikim Liklik Susu]

reflux737,

Yes, as expected, a deep, meaningful, and thought provoking reply.

Hey, there's forums here for Wannabe pilots, maybe they should create one for Wannabe Scabs, just for you!

You need help fella, you could keep a psychiatrist in a full income for the rest of his life.

[Woomera]

This thread is getting very close to being locked!!! :mad:

You guys know the rules!!!

Woomera

[relax737]

Thank you woomera. Liklik suksuk does know the rules, but past posts would indicate a maturity problem.

Bye children.

[Eastwest Loco]

I just cant leave you guys to your own devices for 2 weeks while Mrs Loco and I swan around SIN and DPS can I?

Sometimes I do despair.

It is however, very reassuring to here and Aussie (or Kiwi) voice from the flight deck on a foreign airline, particularly one serving those among us who choose not to eat during daylight and clean their carpets with their foreheads at this time of year. Shame about the cabin service in J on said airline inbound - they must have been preoccupied or lacking sugar as the outbound was fine.

Good to be back, but guys - please play nice.

Best all

EWL

[Flying Ninja]

Kraptin M
In response to your comments of 10 Oct.
I have heard a larger amount of BS. It comes from you everytime you put finger to keyboard and doubtless each time you put your glass down and finish belching.
Talk about Physc testing etc. It is obvious that you didn't do any with Ansett . You sir are obviously disturbed and your actions during 89 show what you really are:

An antagionist
Indecisive
Unproffessional
Dishonest
A turn coat
AN OPPORTUNIST.

Oh! No!

Not that horrible word usually reserved for "one of Those" used about "one of ours"
YOU sir had a change of heart and (as you would have it known ) a return to your unmoving integrity only AFTER you were not wanted back by the airline that made you " the cream of Australian Aviation" . You took the opportunity presented by the confusion to cover up your abomination.

I suppose you can now announce that you are in the upper management of your current airline after the natural progression that comes with the time you have put in. Any announcements????
No???
Geee Wizzzzzz, what a blow for those with the "hats stained white with cream "

To you and your mate RTA who like to "contain" or "control" or
generally stick there nose in everybodys business instead of getting on with your own life, let me say that there are all types of pilots in those "main stream " but I don't see you there Kraptin, you are in Asia bitching just as you did in Ansett when you were "cream ". There are also much bigger airlines in Asia that do not even recall the events so vivid in your minds but, I don't see you there Kraptin. What about RTA, where are you working?
Has the cream become Yoghurt.
What a bunch of to-sers. Hey!!!! is that how you get the "cream" in the first place????????

Get a life but more than anything else----------
Shut The F--K UP!!!!!!
Sick and tired of the moaning!!!!!!!!

PS: I always thought that " hero " refered to the "those with the hats stained with cream".
Funny how you can look at things when you don't have any hang ups!!!!

[Eastwest Loco]

Oh my wordy Lordy Ninja.

You must have really got up from the wrong side of the bed this morning.

I would respectfully suggest that unless you have flown with Kaptin M for more than a few sorties, that it would be inapproriate to comment on his professionalism for one.

Kap seldom directly attacks anyone, and I ( a humble groundhog ) have a totally different opinion of the '89 events to his.

Last time I heard, that was allowed. We are all thankfully entitled to hold opinions that may differ from those of others.

Lighten up mate.

Best regards

EWL

[Wizofoz]

Flying Ninja,

You do no one any good spouting that kind of c!"£. Informed, robust debate is possible even between people with vastly different views.

That kind of post reflects contempt on you, not on the objects of your scorn.

[JapJok]

Wiz I didn't think robust discussion was probable/possible other than between people with vastly differing views, other than between people with just differing views. Only joking.
Facts of Ninja's may be right, but delivery just a little provocative.

[Spad]

Methinks Flying Ninja protesth a little too loud. I don’t know what the allusions to cream on hats is all about, but on reading his little rantette, the phrase that immediately comes to mind is “if the cap fits….”

Didja run across an old colleague in the shopping mall who turned ’is back on yuh Ninj, reminding you of what you are… and always will be?

Reference Ninja’s comments about ‘heroes’: is there anyone out there with a high speed connection (and the time) to search the archives to find the very funny poem that someone wrote that started the whole ‘hero’ thing? I remember laughing out loud when I read it. As I recall, it was in response to some post-89 Qandom pilots complaining to someone in authority after their kids found their names on a (insert four letter word beginning with the letter immediately after R) list whilst doing a Google search.

They didn’t like being called that word that starts with the letter immediately after R so some wag made up the poem giving them the ‘hero’ label, and it’s stuck. Love to see it again, but my steam driven Internet connection isn’t up to the search.

[Andu]

I remember that poem. Very amsusing. i thried an archive search for the word 'hero' but could only get an open thread search, and the 'hero' poem was put up years ago. How do you search the (presumedly closed) archives? Anyone know?

[OBNO]

Wow! - these what's the term "heroes" sound like really bad pilots and people - how on earth did you manage to put up with them all pre 89?!

BTW - my one's this long!

[Flying Ninja]

Mr Spad,
No I didn't run into someone in a shopping centre who thinks that he can somehow either justify his own actions or get some satisfaction from revenge for something that only he was reponsible for .
Kraptin ? professional ?
True professionalism extends beyond flying skills. He doesn't qualify.
Yes, in that situation as in all, there were opportunists. These opportunists were on both sides, if you can actually say that there were two sides. Surely, we were all adult individuals capable of making a proffesssional decision. Obviously Kraptain wasn't because he kept changing his mind and lied to try and cover up his opportunist and disloyal actions.
Kraptin was an opportunist as was someone who went straight back in order to inprove his position .
Even more damning is the fact that he held a high position in the union. He abused his position because knew things and used his inside information to try and get back as early as he could. All this after he was one of the protagonists an BNE. He helped start the dispute! What a great guy he is !!!!!

This thread had potential until some idiot mentioned "the Cream of Australian Aviation" Doubltless some real idiots didn't return and they were not cream. To call yourself " Cream" is an arrogant position to take ,especially as the basis of their arguement is on morals, solidarity and loyalty, not ability.Unionism as the AFAP ran it was not in keeping with proffessionalism.The muscle men were not much better than low class union brow beaters.
Airline pilots are probably one of the most self centered groups around. They only care about seniority up until it passes their number, stuff the rest behind. Just look at the Cathay employment band . What a joke.
Many, many, in 89 went quickly overseas for better seniority numbers and tax free pay while others fought for them back in Aust, for NO money. If the fight was won, "the cream" , on the basis of there "seniortity" would decide if they would come back or keep their tax free positions and senority overseas. For those who stayed in Aust and didn't get a job back, tough luck, that's the seniorty game. Can't get a job overseas later because your so called mates have taken them all before you. Can you really keep two senority numbers at once with all the trimmings while others do the work and not be an opportunist?? You can if you are an airline pilot who considers himself the "cream of Australian aviation".
My style may be provocative but my facts are correct.
True proffessionals keep politics and personal feeelings out of their decision making.They do their job to the best of their ability and accept situations that are out of their control. If you find your position untenable, you leave. You do not throw stones ,heckle or seek revenge .To try and blame ( or to "control" as they put it) others for your own decisions or circumstances is very unproffessional and childish.
Sure , life was great in the protected environment before 89 but it is over. The proffessional of airline pilot has been stuffed in Aust by the low salaries and standards of companies like VB and J*( being the Impulse pay deal, don't know about the standards of the current management).
Further,to exclude individuals that are the best candidate for a position to the detriment of the company just so that you feel better is the worst kind of un proffessionalism. In any company that I owned, these would last seconds. VB and KA management this means you, and is intended to be constructive critisism. Go over your head ? Not surprising.
No, I have not applied and I accept that there are some operators who employ unproffesional managers
These companies have not held me back at all and , the offers keep coming.
To make statements like " not even their sons or the sons of their sons" is a typical "red neck" unionist, brow beating tactics.

Hey Kap, we are back to my opinion you and your kind........

You sir, always were, are and always will be a.......RED NECK!!!

[Iakklat]

Hey Ninja your attitude with regard to why certain airlines wont give the almighty chosen ones employment(because of your vast experience operating in OZ) just reiterates why you and your colleagues that made the choices you did, are stuck now in the bottom end of aviation jobs until retirement.
Get over it,flogging around in an A320 for what is now a non existant organisation, in a past life ,up and down the east coast of Australia, is hardly anything reputable overseas airlines and flight ops will miss :}
The Offers keep rolling in hey,i can just imagine,Eva,China Airlines,Vietnam Airlines, Sq, the jobs noone wants ,the hiding places of your former colleagues and opportunists, the real cream of jobs :yuk:
Live with your actions buddy and how about you get over it tosser.:ok:

[Eastwest Loco]

For Heavens sake Ninja.

Isnt this enough of personal attacks in these fora?

Just a little something to think on mate. In the dreaded 1989, while Abeles and Hawke were rearranging your lives, both alleged hero and sc@b, thousands of Traffic Officers, Locos, Porters, Caterers, LAMEs, Marketing Staff and numerous other professions were stood down as you were initially locked out. I personally was not stood down, but had months in HBA having to open a makeshift EW Office and deal with a lot of very unhappy punters. WE handled it - got on with it.

They had the same mortgages, commitments, school bills and worries about their future as the Pilots affected. Many lost houses, foreclosed on by banks after months of no income. Mates of mine lost Hadleys Hotel in Hobart to the bank, and many other accommodation houses, restaurants and attractions went out sideways in this state alone.

You want to know the strange thing? I have not heard ONE of them once over the last 15 years bad mouth either side of the Pilot's Dispute. I have however heard many of them vent their spleen at the Hawke/Abeles obvious manipulation that caused the cataclysm in order to cut costs in an Airline that had greedily been stripped by management to critical mass. The choices made then (15 bleeding years ago) aint gunna change, and nor is the outcome. Please - get over it. Obviously you are doing well, and that is great. Hopefully it will one day be just a distant memory if people can just let go.

I would hope that highly trained professionals as you and others in here are will one day see how you were deliberately set against each other and if not forgive, at least tolerate each other.

Personal attacks are very degrading, particularly to those who launch them.

Play nice.

Best regards

EWL

[TheNightOwl]

Good to read a voice of maturity and reason, EWL, onya, mate!
Even more gratifying to see no response from the good Kaptin M, although he and I have nothing in common wrt the '89 unpleasantness. There is enough of a divide still existing without building on it 15 years later.

Kind regards,

TheNightOwl.:ok:

[greybeard]

Well said EWL,

My feelings on the "dispute" can be well searched in this forum, you are one of the few who saw it from a different perspective who bother to comment.
I have returned to Aust from 13 yrs O'seas, found some meaningful Aviation part/full time employment, working with previous ground staff and Pilots of Ansett in a lot of areas, some of whom I worked with in the "previous life".
The ground staff are very good at their jobs as they were before and I don't find any bias one way or the other to the Pilot body. There were some words between some of those people at the 1989 time and the pilot body which were made in that time frame, and not referred to in the current circumstances as is quite professional.
Many people will remember certain events, people, actions and quite normally they have a lasting and moulding effect on all future parts of our lives.
There are reasons not to forget or forgive many people in our lives, some events scar worse than others, the whole dispute was a very painful divorce of Managemnt and Union, the settlement not finalised even today with other unions.
There are individuals I have particular thoughts about, to the third generation so to speak, very personal, and others will be the same.
We do need to get on with life, be perhaps more selective and aware of who we associate, denergrate, like and dislike. The duplisity of some people only highlights that they were not worthy of the effort in the first place, were then and are now opportunists and best left to their own devices and fates. Treat them as professionals if the need arises, drink with your friends.

Siu generus
(and for those who have forgotten or never knew it means in a loose way "may be seen to be different", AND WE WERE and I hope still are.)

The old greybeard still going, joined when this site had 2000 members, got lost in the shuffles of computers, still need the daily fix, bit of a worry but good fun.

[Woomera]

:mad: :mad:

Woomera

[amos2]

...and what does the above mean, Woomera?

Not attempting to impose censorship I hope? :confused:

[Woomera]

Don't start Amos!

You know full well that whatever action I took had nothing to do with "censorship" and everything to do with vitreolic slagging of another user, contrary to the PPRuNe posting rules.

The title of this thread is: 15 years on, have we had some interesting jobs or what????

May I suggest a return to the thread topic would be appropriate?

Woomera

[Gnadenburg]

Flying Ninja

"Exclude individuals who are the best candidates for the position" is an arrogant and selfish comment; possibly an overestimate of one's worth too?

Some of your former colleagues in a aforementioned airline, may well have been the best candidates for the job-as evidenced by rapid upgrades early in the piece and now the first generation have widebody commands and are being elevated to training and management positions.

A 340KT descent to 20nm, followed by a DME arrival and decelerating approach, completed ( if a sim exercise ) by a 500' circling approach, is irrelevant in the real world. A good handling exercise really-sums up one's Ansett flying experience.


Couple this with a very poor application and understanding of FCOM to complete the Ansett A320 experience.

So, the guys that have lept ahead realise they have good hands on experience to fall back on, but are relatively green in their procedural application of Airbus procedures in a new airline culture.

To suggest you are the best candidate for a job, ahead of former junior colleagues who are proving successful, is an overstatement of your Ansett and domestic flying experience.

[Valdiviano]

or what???????????????????
young family, chosed not to go o`seas. bought run down small business in leased property. lived in a caravan for 2 years, surrounded myself with LOYAL good staff (well paid). grew business, bought property, build new showroom/retail premises. sold business, (52 & well off after 15 years).
interesting??? yes. hard??? very
BUT I WOULD RATHER ........ BE FLYING

[Eastwest Loco]

Sama sama Valdaviano

48 - doing OK - nearly had to move to ADL and now have small business, doing well with very well paid and skilled staff, and would STILL prefer handing you the loadsheet with a full house down back.

You can take the boy out of the airline, but you can never take the airline out of the boy.

Best regards

EWL