120.17 / 132.7

[flexmode]

Last night i operated a turboprop into LCY. Near Logan a 146 behind us was put in front of us. We had to reduce to 180. Our max. is 224, so the speed reduction is 44 knots. Isn´t it so that a jet is doing max. 250 below Fl 100? So, his speed reduction would have been only 26 knots to stay behind us! Controllers, is this normal practise?

[eyeinthesky]

It's difficult to give you a full answer without seeing the radar picture, but you have to consider that a 146 will indeed slow to 250 kts below FL80 (for birdstrike concerns, as there is no speed restriction below FL100 in Class A, only at speed limit points), but he may well be doing 295 in the descent to your 224 in the descent, 210 in the cruise. Therefore it makes sense in most people's minds to get the jet past. To restrict you to 180 does seem a little strange, however.

Another thing that not many people realise is that Thames are supposed to receive inbounds to LCY 10 miles in trail to allow for the backtracks etc. This can be difficult to achieve, and I wonder whether you with your 224 kts would have been able to get 10 miles in front of the 146 doing 210.

The real problem is that as LCY gets busier there is insufficient room to give all the traffic an ideal profile.

[Northerner]

This is one of those awkward ones. One of you has to be restricted as there ain't much space out there to have you on headings without you going into the wrong airspace. Without seeing the exact positions on radar it is difficult to tell, but there is always more than one way to skin a cat, and if you had been far enough ahead the 146 would probably have been restricted to 210 behind you. As Eye rightly says above, we're supposed to hand you over to Thames 10 miles in trail with no catch up....if you are neck & neck, speed control may be the only option.
Oh and thanks to all the Thames guys out there who regularly take the traffic with no space between them!

[ATCO Two]

Flexmode,

I spoke to a colleague today on Thames Radar who witnessed this incident which happened at about FL90 on the TMA SE Low frequency. It is the TMA function to position aircraft 10 nm apart in trail descending to 4000 ft under the standing agreement. As you are aware, the Thames Radar Manoeuvring Area is a very small piece of airspace in which Thames has only the use of two levels. With the increasing levels of traffic operating into EGLC and the expansion of Stansted, even more pressure is being put upon ATCOs to make the system work. Besides you routeing into SPR, there may be other aircraft routeing via DET and LAM all descending to 4000 ft and all wanting to be number one to land. Believe me there is NO conspiracy against FK50 aircraft or any other turboprop, and certainly not against VLM.

Controllers position the aircraft in the most efficient sequence as safely as possible, based on "first come, first served", using their experience and judgement. They take into account the complete picture and consider all the aircraft in their airspace, not just yours. In this case I imagine that the TMA Controller ascertained that the best sequence was to put the Bae146 first, and without knowing the complete traffic situation, who are we to question his actions as long as the standing agreement was met and a reasonable and safe sequence into LCY was achieved?

Point of information, the Bae146 if authorised by ATC in Class A airspace could exceed 250 kts. Thames Radar were I understand, surprised to receive you at 180 kts, but even so this situation is not that unusual.

Perhaps you feel you did lose out on this occasion, but you conveniently seem to forget the number of straight in approaches from SPR you get, sometimes at the expense of aircraft coming through DET or LAM, the "direct DVR" routeings immediately after departure, the opposite direction take offs from runway 10...shall I go on??

Perhaps you need to make time to visit Terminal Control or Thames Radar to see things from our perspective. Thank you for reading this.

[flexmode]

Thank you all very much for the good replies. Yes i fly for VLM and have been doing that for 5 years and been into City for over 1200 times; but no, i did not know that Thames needed a gap of 10 miles. I realize that your ATC does a tremendous good job wich we appreciate very much. Of course; thank you for the direct DVR´s, straight in´s and dep´s from 10 when 28 is in use. Great help all. Please let us know if there is something we can help you with.

[ATCO Two]

EYB, if you're not getting the required spacing then COMPLAIN! You're entitled to 9/8/7 miles as appropriate or more if you need it. You are the arbiter.
Flexmode, what can you do to help? Fly the SIDs accurately, especially in a strong Northerly wind. Following the 083 Radial ensures at least 3 nm separation from the 28 final approach - NOT following it causes a confliction and potential loss of separation. Oh and don't whinge!

[Steep Approach]

Looks like the New Years Resolution to not Whinge has gone right out the window eh EYB!!

Now, didn't I tell you what those problem report forms were for?

[HounslowHarry]

Expedite your backtrack

"From where I was sitting (sweating) in the tower last night" - ATC was never meant to easy. And remember they are always safer on the ground, so go on - let me pack a few.

The question, however, is if you got one away in a 4-4.5 mile gap last night, why are we wasting 3 or 4 miles by giving you 7 or 8 (depending on the runway)?

Were all in this together remember.

As for the Reubens Boys (and girl) we all love you - but we always try to be very fair, just like hopefully you find ATCOs are all over the UK.

HH
(with his Thames Terrier hat on)

[Steep Approach]

OUCH! EYB Somebody's not gonna like THAT! YOU know WHO I mean. <img src="eek.gif" border="0"> <img src="mad.gif" border="0">

[ATCO Two]

EYB,

When I said "don't whinge" I was referring to our friend flexmode, not you.
Seriously though, this is all about communication. As I said, if the spacing isn't sufficient then you must tell Thames. Any reasonable controller will understand and give you the spacing you need. There must be no real (or perceived) authority gradient here. BUT as HH states, if the spacing is too lose for the wind conditions or there are no departures, please tell us so we can pack a few. And when you say we can pack, do not ask us for short notice gaps when we are committed to a sequence - in other words - plan ahead.