Rudder usage

[FullyFlapped]

What do all you instructor types make of the assertions in Flyer mag recently that under NO circumstances should a rudder EVER be used to pick up a dropped wing ? (Rufus Heald, Flyer Sep 04).

Every single flying instructor I've ever flown with has told me that this is the correct thing to do ...

What the guy writes all seems logical to me : but I'm only a humble PPL. I asked one (current) instructor again recently, and he was adamant that picking up with rudder is the right thing to do.

So come on guys, what do YOU teach ?

FF :ok:

[Oktas8]

Briefly, after a wing drop it is appropriate to stop the yaw with rudder. This may look like "picking up the wing", but if the aircraft rolls wings level, too much rudder has been applied.

More correctly, after the yaw has been stopped and the aircraft is no longer stalled, roll wings level with aileron.

I have heard (and been experimenting with) stating "remain in balance throughout the recovery" as a way of avoiding the impresson of picking up a wing with rudder.

That said, I'd rather have a student "pick up the wing with rudder" than they use aileron while still stalled!

Oktas8

[Big Pistons Forever]

I think the "don't pick up the wing with rudder brigade" are missing the point. When instructing I make a big point of staying coordinated especially in the slow flight regime. However during stalls I emphasize that NO yaw should be allowed to develop and that the rudder should be used to to eliminate any developing yaw at the break. No yaw always equals no spin which usually equals continued living. As the student gains confidence with stall recoveries I always get them to stall the aircraft and then continue to hold the stick full back. The aircraft will flop about but if rudders are used to counter yaw the aircraft will not spin. The subsequent recovery is then carried out both power off and power on to demonstrate the importance of full power aplication in reducing altitude loss especially if the aircraft is deeply stalled.

On a related topic I have found that many new commercial students have never flown a light airctaft below about 60 knts. For my commercial students I alway spent a half hour or so on the lets get the airspeed indicator to read zero game. I found this was a great way to teach the importance of coordinated flight as all the forces are magnified. It was also a great confidence builder and shows the importance of smooth handling in order to get the most performance from your aircraft. I always finished off with a demo of what happens when you are trying to clear the trees at the end of the short strip by just pulling back on the stick
:uhoh:

[The Old Fogducker]

Hi Folks:

Been a very long time since I actively instructed, but one vivid demonstration regarding proper spin recovery technique involved getting a Cessna 150/152 into a fully developed spin of two or three turns with some power on and then using full counter-spin aileron inputs.

It'll REALLY wind up then! Never had any student or Instructor Rating trainee not appreciate that co-ordinated controls were required after stopping yaw/spin with rudder and forward stick input.

Regards,
Fog

[bookworm]

No yaw always equals no spin which usually equals continued living.

The issue of what aspect of aircraft motion turns a simple stall into a spin is an interesting one. I recently saw a compelling argument that it is roll rather than yaw in the stall regime that is the most important contributor to the commencement of autorotation, because of the instability of roll damping in the stall regime. Nevertheless, preventing yaw has to be a good start...

[BEagle]

Keep the a/c in balance throughout the entry to the stall and at all times during the recovery.

To recover:

Full power (keeping the ball centered) and control column centrally forward until the stall identification ceases, then maintain that pitch attitude.

Then level wings and ease into a climb.


DO NOT try to 'pick up a wing with rudder' at any point in the stall, just keep the ball in the middle. In fact don't use anything to 'pick up a wing' UNTIL the exit from the stall - and then only normal control movements. The problem with trying to 'pick up a wing' with rudder in a stall is that most stuents won't be able to assess this accurately and may provoke an incipient spin in the opposite direction.

The RAF stopped this practice decades ago!

[the wizard of auz]

Full power (keeping the ball centered) and control column centrally forward until the stall identification ceases, then maintain that pitch attitude.
I was always taught to leave the power until your sure that you have enough elevator to lower the angle of attack.
It was demonstrated to me in a 152, and it was possible to remain stalled with full power, as the elevator didn't have enough authority to lower the angle of attack/overpower the pitch couple involved with power on, due no/low airflow.
6000 hrs later (many aerobatic ones in that) I still lower the nose, then add power as the stall breaks.
Hey, it might not be the right proceedure, but it work for me.

[FlyingForFun]

Wizard,

Surely the elevator has more authority with power on, not less? Don't we teach this to students in Effects of Controls 1?

FFF
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[the wizard of auz]

I must of been in a dodgy 150 then, coz it wouldnt pitch nose down under full power.
I'm fairly sure that the airflow over an elevator on an aircraft in a stalled condition, would be quite different than what is demonstrated in effects of controls 1. unless of course you have an extreemly advaced first lesson.
Also, if you wanna throw in "P" factor and gyroscopic effects on a stalled aircraft, just to liven things up a bit, go right ahead.
I think I did state "this might not be th right procedure, but it works for me".
By the way, I seen the same effect in a 185, 188 and 180hp 172........I gotta stop flying these dodgy craft. :uhoh:

[BEagle]

Fly them by all means. Just don't stall them near the ground......

[Angels One Fife]

Control undemanded yaw with rudder and fly in balance.


Big Pistons Forever

"I always finished off with a demo of what happens when you are trying to clear the trees at the end of the short strip by just pulling back on the stick" Doesn't that get a bit expensive and I bet it smarts a bit.


So wizard.

How aft was the C of G then in the 150?

Feel free to tell us all about your knowledge of p factor and gyroscopic effects.

[the wizard of auz]

Actually, I will have to fly them close to the ground, coz thats what I do for a quid. But I won't be stalling them at the heights I work at, I can assure you.
The 150 wasnt behind the aft CoG at all, and If you don't know about things like "P" factor, Gyroscopic effect and torque effect and how they can effect a stalled aircraft, I reckon you aught to think about not stalling them.
But hey, I aint an instructor, just a lowly old piloty type, so go ya hardest. :ok:

[homeguard]

Rudder to prevent FURTHER yaw! That is, should a yawing moment be active.

Never forget that Rudder is effective around the Normal axis (Yaw), Aileron is effective around the Longitudinal axis (roll). That is what they are bolted on to do!

In a modern aircraft that is properly loaded the Tail Plane (elevator) WILL BE efective at the point that the Main Plane stalls. Slipstream will increase the effect of the elevator and rudder (Tail Plane & Fin) and therefore the addition of power will shorten the recovery time and therefore minimise any height loss.

Elevator and power are applied simultaneously (that is at the same time, sic.). Rudder is also applied to prevent any yaw that may result from the change in power (slipstream)

Why get any more complicated than that?

[dreamingA380]

During SSR with wing drop I always patter
"Use rudder to prevent further yaw"

Then as per BEagle ...

Hope this clarifies FullyFlapped... "picking up the wing" is not the correct thing to do at all.

Happy landings

[Tinstaafl]

I'm in the 'anti-pick-up-wing brigade' too.

Rudder to prevent or stop yaw, pitch nose towards the ground to exit the stall, power to reduce height loss, roll level once unstalled (but no great urgency to roll level compared to the other actions).

[Big Pistons Forever]

Angels One Fife

I thought it would be self evident that " my what happens when you just pull back on the stick while trying to get over the the trees " demo was carried out at the end of a stall series and thus by definition at a safe atitude:ok: I am all for training realism but I must say the yellow stripe down my back has got considerably wider as I grew older ;)