Oxford vs Bournemouth eptauk

[Mooneyboy]

This is my first post and I'm sure you've all answered similar questions before, but I really not sure which route to take.

My aim is to fast track into the airlines and I have the avaiable finance through money which has been left to me by a relative who has passed away. This should be enough to pay for a full intergrated course, but my concern is having spent all this money that I won't get a position in the airlines.

I've done the oxford selection and succeeded and I also have applied to ctcmcalpine for the phase 2 section. The plan was if I didn't succeed with the ctcmcalpine ( with strong competition is very likely) I would go to the oxford intergrated course. in october. I have a ppl with 90 hours which 20 are on the Mooney M20J (complex single) and have been advised that I would be better doing a modular course.

I like the bournemouth city and have heard good things about EPTAUK especially from a certain member of pprune. I am aware of making a mistake in my choice to achieve my ambition and wonder whether I would be better doing a cheaper modular course such as EPTAUK and use the remaining funds to self finance a type rating.

Any help or oponions much appreciated.

Mooneyboy

[TRon]

Here we go......... :hmm:

[Mooneyboy]

Hope its not to boring for you Tron.:{

[Stoney X]

Mooneyboy, I suspect TRon's post was in response to you mentioning self financing a type rating (At least that's how I felt when I read your post). Look for threads that have already discussed this subject in detail.

Regards
Stoney X

[The Butler]

Eye eye mooney boy, I suppose Im in a similarish situation but Im tryin to decide whether or not to complete my PPL before I go to either oxford or Jerez. Ive done sooo much research into flight schools ground schools etc etc and have arrived at the general idea that I will be better off with integrated training. I don't care what people say that it doesn't make a **** of difference for jobs, I think at the moment that it does. There seems to be a preference and it it seems safer.

Perhaps you're in a similar situation. Id rather pay the extra bit of money to have a fast track intense sound training course in which I live and breathe flying for 18 months, rather than going here and there everywhere and fartin about with different schools etc.

But then again you're right that you can save the cash for either flying time or a type rating or whatever and maybe it doesnt make a difference for jobs. Its tough decision eh? Let me know what you end up deciding to do. Sorry this post hasn't been much help!
:cool:

[Flying Farmer]

Farting about heh Butler, did mine modular in 16 months :}

Would have saved a fortune but for one small matter :{

FF

[GMIMA]

Hi

I attended EPTA last may for my Ir and MCC,

I would recommend them to anyone - Andy Hogg got me through the IR. Liz, is frendly and so is jane.

You hear good and Bad things about all schools - would recommend a visit to any school u r interested in.

Did my ground school with PPSC when it was running and Keith Williams and Derek Haughton now work for epta. Would say they were the best from PPSC and not forgetting John Hooper who is now with OATS - agreed John !!!! YES!

[EGAC_Ramper]

Im going modular and aint "farting about" for however long it takes.I already have my PPL and will have 100TT by commencement of groundschool at Oxford.Then I'm just steamrollering my way through it all in one big continuous session.


Cheers

[Mooneyboy]

Thanks for the replies.

I understand Stoney about the issue over paying for your own type ratings. At the end of the day there will be someone who will self finance a type rating and will probaly stand a better chance of getting into an airline than someone with a ATPL. Obviously it depends on what type rating you get and what the market wants.

If I was a very low hour ppl or hadn't quite completed my ppl like The Butler then yes I would have gone for an intergrated course such as at oxford. However with 90 hours you tend to wonder whether you'll get much saving in terms of hours with the intergrated route. If the intergrated course doesn't give you a big saving for you alreading having a PPL then it makes the PPL you gained seem worthless.

If I completed my frozen ATPL in 16 months like Flying farmer by the modular route then I would be very happy however I wouldn't mind knowing why it cost more for you (as long as it isn't a sensitive issue).

Lastly to GMIMA, I will definately take a look at bournemouth since yourself and a number of other sources have said good things about EPTAUK.

Once again thanks for the replies and any more advice would be a great help

Mooneyboy :ok:

[The Butler]

Farmer boy that must have taken a lot of farting about to complete your modular in 16 months! Well done anyway.

Mooney man, if you do decide to go integrated then check beforehand how they will convert your flying time. One school I asked said if I had a PPL they would take 20 hours off it or come to some agreement with the total cost of the course.

Keep an eye on my post 'PPL then integrated course?' for anything about this. Like you say though, it could render your PPL seemingly worthless, however you'd be well ahead of others when it came to practical traing and would be able to relate the theory so much easier.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

The Butler - I bet you that I could do a Modular course faster than you could do an Integrated course at OATS right now. Furthermore it would cost tens of thousands of pounds less.

I would walk out of my front door this morning and go to someone like Aeros at Staverton, enrol for a PPL course and go on the first flight this afternoon. See the doc tomorrow for a medical and then do 2 hours flying a day for the rest of the month and have my PPL issued in Sept.

I'd then hop on a big shiny plane to Florida where its not a bad time to bang out some hour building. I'd knock on the door of, say Naples, get checked out and flying within 48hrs. I reckon I could knock off 100hrs in three weeks so by the end of Oct I'd be back in Blighty. Where I'd hot foot it down to see Alex Whittingham in Bristol who'd sort me out with an excellent ATPL groundschool distance learning package.

I'd tackle that full time 8hrs a day and do the brush up courses to prepare me for the first exam series in the New Year. I'd be ready to complete the ATPL exam series in March. April is a lovely time to start a CPL MULTI and IR course and conveniently for me Westflight at my local airfield in Staverton would find me a place in their school which has 3 veeery experienced instructor with an aircraft each and only 2 students apiece to look after. (Top tip with flying schools - ask about instructor to aircraft to student ratios - then follow up with a question about servicability!)

It would take only 3 months allowing for weekends off and bad weather to complete all the training. Oh, add a week on the end there for an MCC course wherever its quickest and cheapest.

Then its off down to Gatwick with a bundle of paperwork and licenses to have a shiny new CPL/IR Frzn ATPL minted. Unfortunately I might get stuck in the July M25 start of school holidays traffic.

By which point I suspect you at your large FTO would just about be passing progress test 2.

Whilst belting out 200 pointless CV's I would be chatting to my old chums at Westflight or Aeros about the possibility of doing an FI rating with the spare £20k I've still got left. After no airline jumps to hire me I spend most of August and September doing the FI rating. October is not the busiest time for flying schools but luckily for me two instructors at Aeros just got the good news that Netjets wanted one of them and BACX the other.

As this news spreads throughout the hangar I hurredly make my way to the CFIs office nervously straightening my tie. 5 minutes later I leave the office with a new job that never got close to being advertised.

Its now late October and I am really enjoying my new life buzzing about the skies of Gloucestershire being paid. My car is old and my bank manager menacing but I only spent £50,000, I am earning enough to get by on for now and I'm being very nice to everyone at the airfield including the bizjet charter outfit in the hangar across the way. I hear they might be getting a new aircraft in the New Year...

Meanwhile you are, 15 months later, desperately trying to secure an aircraft, a test slot and a decent bit of weather to take your IRT. You've attended the recent careers pep talk and your CV is a thing of beauty. You're £70k in an not quite there yet but you have high hopes. Someone on the course the one before yours got a job, apparently, with Ryanair and he reckons that they will be looking for at least 10 more next month. You have high hopes.


Cheers

WWW

[Stoney X]

WWW, can I buy that as a package deal? :O

Regards
Stoney X

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Be nice wouldn't it?

Integrated is more expensive, can take longer, offers less flexibility, trains to the same standard and gives no competitive advantage at present.

Of the hiring I can think of done over the last couple of years by any UK airline NONE of it would have excluded a self sponsored modular student.

Do the FTO's offering integrated courses admit this I wonder? Do people ever ask?

Cheers

WWW

[Mooneyboy]

I feel myself drawn even more to the modular system. Has the Butler visited OATS and a modular place?

Just wondering to the Wee Weasely Welshman whether you are an airline pilot since you seem confident of your skills to complete an ATPL quickly. You sound as if you know what your talking about so are you in the industy ( hope this isn't a rude question as I don't know yet the unwritten rules of pprune) ? Also do you know welshpool airfield since your welsh.

Nice weather today but Mooney gone for a week.

Mooneyboy

[Farrell]

WWW......

That training plan should be posted at the top of the Wannabes section as I think it would save a lot of typing time answering the same questions over and over.

I'm sure some of you must have carpal tunnel syndrome at this stage!

Thanks for the post!

Wayne

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

MooneyBoy - yes I am a 737 FO with about 4,500hrs TT and I used to be a PPL instructor at Welshpool and a CPL IR instructor at BAE in Jerez. I've done the self sponsored route by what would now be known as the modular route. I know people who have done it every which way with and without success over the years. I've also been moderating these pages for about 5 years now. I know a bit about flying training but by no means it all.

Integrated can suit some. I don't see the point at the moment. That may change if a hiring boom occurs as it did slightly in 1999, 2000, early 2001.

Cheers

WWW

[High Wing Drifter]

Look at the Channel Express site, read between the lines and tell me it doesn't say "Oxford App candidates need only apply."

[BillieBob]

OK, I will. It doesn't say (correcting your grammar) "Only Oxford APP candidates need apply". It says that they prefer to recruit F/Os with 1,000hrs TT and either jet or EFIS turboprop experience. However, if (ever) and when that pool dries up they may consider low hours F/Os who have undergone an integrated course of training (Oxford, Cabair and FTE currently offer such courses) and a structured jet orientation bridging course (Oxford, FTE and CTC offer such courses). There is, as yet, no proven advantage to the Oxford APP course (except to OAT's cashflow, of course).

[Mooneyboy]

To Weasely Welshman. I started training at Welshpool until it closed due to the conflict. You may have instructed me since at the time I was quite young. Do you remember a new red PA34?

I was emailed about a site which follows the oxford APP classes and the job section makes for an interesting read. Anyone looking at APP should have a look.

www.mikechannon.com.

Once again guys and girls thanks for the replies

Mooneyboy

:ok:

[High Wing Drifter]

True CTC have their "Advanced Handling" course. But this seems to be used to select trained candidates for placement to Monarch and EasyJet. I imagine you would have a hard time explaining why that didn't come to pass.

Cabair don't seem to list one on their syllabus.

Not familiar with FTE or the others.

My personal conclusion is that to go out of their way to write "Integrated" and "Jet Bridging" in thier requirements they have something very specific in mind.

/awaiting castigation for missing punctuation and bad smelling.

[TRon]

Sorry! I apologise for the little dig :O

I just knew this was going to be another Integrated vs Modular debate!!

MikeChannon.com; firstly need to loose the music, I cringed but doesn't look like any of them have got jobs despite flashy websites. Althoug I imainge that will change. SOme of these guys will find employment, just like many others from different school, flying training background etc. What matters is you. You can spend 70k or 30k on training. If you are a tw*t you arent going to get hired.

Like I have said channex do not take integrated only, they took two modular guys through CTC's ATP scheme March 2003.

[Send Clowns]

BillieBob, all the Channex pilots I know did modular training. Same with Citiex, if that was a typo. All the airlines in which people I know have got jobs recently have taken modular students on the same basis as integrated, except those that sponsor (even some of them now use CTC, a modular course). As WWW says, there is no recruiting at the moment thet requires integrated training, except for some of the sponsorship schemes. I now work for a modular school (BCFT in Bournemouth), by the way, but was very irritated when I was training by a school that offer both only trying to sell me a completely inappropriate integrated course, and not even telling me there was another option.

[40 yearflyer]

OOOOO ! ! what a lot of egos on display. The whole point of WWW forever posting 'his 'route' is that he probably was clever than most and he was going to succeed whatever route he took.You should ask the less gifted who took the same route as WWW how did they fare? Answer :- about £20,000 more for the same thing as WWW. However, he is man enough to admit that integrated will suit some but not others. I have met some incredibly sharp and erudite students on integrated and equally I have met some incredibly dull and whatever on modular. So long as there is no selection process for wannabees to enrol in a course to attempt to attain a Commercial Flying Licence then FTOs will exist to 'nurture these young men/girls dreams'. At the end of the day I have seen students on their SIXTH attempt to pass the IRT suceed....and believe me or not go on to attain Airline jobs.
In my Royal Air Force days it was always the the boring old f...ts who in my experience found their way into airlines and the really sharp cookies who stayed in 'interesting jobs...I haven't one hour of second pilot in my log book they would boast....
Horses for courses but as I listened today to all the Airline pilots buzzing around DTY, BADIM, CPT 'no speed restriction' FL110 by Westcott' etc. etc I am reminded of the BMI student who taxying past the aircraft parked and ready to fly to the Antarctica said to me' Now that's the job I really want' !

[BillieBob]

By the same token, I have seen some incredibly sharp and erudite students on modular courses and some incredibly dull and whatever on integrated. I well remember the CAP509 course student who finally passed his IRT on the third attempt in the third series, after which the CAA, in those far off days, would refuse to continue testing.

Don't get me wrong, there is nothing wrong with the integrated course, and its structure and discipline suits some people better than modular. The point we are trying to make is that there is no inherent advantage to integrated over modular, despite the hogwash that the marketing departments of the 'major' schools may wish to peddle, and there is certainly no demonstrable advantage to Oxford's risible APP course.

Thanks for your comments, Send Clowns - QED methinks.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

40yr flyer - except that wasn't my route. 400hrs on service aircraft, an abridged BCPL FI course with a job already lined up taking me into commercial instructing.

My illustration was merely to refure the point that Integrated is 'quicker' than Modular. I threw in cheaper and better for the hell of it.

Cheers

WWW

[Keith.Williams.]

I will make no comments concerning integrated courses because I have never been involved in them. But I can confirm that modular training can be completed much more quickly than many people imagine.

As an example, one of our students who joined the ATPL groundschool last November completed his MCC during early August this year. If we make a reasonably generous allowance of three months for the PPL and hour building (August to October) before starting the groundschool, that makes 12 months (August 2003 to August 2004). ( or 12.5 months if we want to be pedantic). This is not at all unusal and is probably achievable at any of the modular schools.

The student in question was quite bright, but by no means unique. He actually failed one module 2 groundschool exam, but picked it up at his second attempt along with first time passes at all of his module three exams.

I can also recall another student who had major problems with his groundschool exams (failed most of module 1). But he still completed his entire training (PPL, groundschool, CPL, IR and MCC) within 15 months.

If you have enough determination you can complete all of your training very quickly through the modular route. You can of course do it more slowly if you wish.

[Mooneyboy]

I have already heard from an old oat student about oxford.

What would be useful if any current or ex students of EPTAUK Bournemouth could express their first hand experiences of the flight school on this thread.

Would be a great help

Best regards

Mooneyboy

[The Butler]

Precisely my point WWW, loads of farting about.

[Mooneyboy]

What looks to be the case is that you can be farting around in modular or intergrated ( look at those people who finnished OAT). I suppose luck can also come into it.

Mooneyboy

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Butler - what precisely was 'farting about'?

As I have gone to some lengths to illustrate you can complete the modular training in less time than the integrated.

You will then have more money in your back pocket and an equal chance of an airline job to someone who has just finished at Kiddlington, de La Frontera or Bedford. With said money you can qualify as a Flying Instructor if you are good enough or pay for a type rating or enrol on a plumbers course.

Believe me - the farting around involved is very high when you are one of 14 on a course in a school of 14 courses trying to fly one of 14 serviceable aircraft this morning. I've seen it and worked in it.

Student / Instructor / Aircraft ratios - the thing that schools really don't want to tell you...

Cheers


WWW

[scroggs]

I think The Butler's point was that he can't be bothered to do any of the legwork involved in your route, WWW, he wants it all handed to him on a plate! Methinks he might have a shock coming.....:hmm:

Scroggs

[zcar]

Surely the moderators of this site ought to be setting a better example than sinking the the level of those who choose to be personally critical about others here?

I have a feeling that the glitch in Flying Farmer's training report was connected with the demise of SFT and the connection between that company and EPTA. If so commiserations from a fellow sufferer.

Once again, DON'T pay up front for training, or learn the hard way like I did.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Don't look to us as examples - we reserve the right to be total miscreants.

Cheers

WWW

[scroggs]

zcar, I'm not a servant to those who would rather the work was done by others. I am happy to inform, but I reserve the right to express my opinion of those who I think are wasting our time, or wasting their own, by denying the legitimacy of our advice without offering reasons for an alternative course of action or thought.

I'm not here to massage egos. If I think someone's a tw@t, I'll say so. You may note that I haven't said so in this case.

Scroggs

[AJ]

After some extensive perusal of various aviation-related sites (including this one) and after having sent for various FTO brochures and spoken to various pilots on the line at the airline I work for, I can't honestly see any reason to choose Oxford's (integrated) courses over those (modular) ones available at places such as eptauk. Indeed, I intend to go down the modular route myself.

However, what gets me are comments on ppjn such as:

Low hours F/O's (requirement of 40 during 2004) are only taken from Oxford Aviation and at present are all going onto Q400 fleet.

Cadet - Jerez or Oxford ab initio graduates with 200 hours.

What are we supposed to make of such comments? - you could be forgiven for concluding that successful completion of an integrated course at Oxford or Jerez would increase your chances of ending up with GB/flybe./Britannia.

I know for a fact that the airline I work for employs pilots with a huge variety of training backgrounds, but does this apply at all UK airlines? I guess not.

Still, I'm going down the modular route, which I believe represents better value. I find it quite depressing that some quite deserving people might be shelling out £55000+ for a licence but no job. Still, this industry can be a b****!

regards

[Send Clowns]

I know for a fact that the airline I work for employs pilots with a huge variety of training backgrounds, but does this apply at all UK airlines? Yes it does! if you are talking about Q400 then you must be talking about FlyBe. I know for a fact that they have recently interviewed low-hour pilots off modular courses, and have been told (by someone on their course) that a couple of months before at least 2 started their training on the Dash 8. I'm not sure if Britannia take low-hour pilots at all, but I have never heard of them taking only from integrated courses. The only ones I have heard reliably are FlyBe (which as discussed is not a strict rule) BA mainline and Emirtates (neither of whom have recruited ab initio of years)

Other airlines will compare a modular graduate (230 hours off the course, £12,000 saved to spend on other courses, some independent flying under their belt) favourably with an integrated graduate (170 hours of closely-monitored flying).

[zcar]

Scroggs, I don't mind if you do, as I don't know you.

I don't think my point was directed at you in particular, although your remark did provoke me to write, as has your second remark.

I just think it would be better for moderators to rise above instead of sinking to a level. That way the position of moderator would be well deserved.

Presently some moderators may seem, in the eyes of some readers, to be making similarly cheap comments as those they are supposed to be moderating. This is a shame.

The backstabbing and bickering which occurs spoils this site for those who have no interest in getting involved in it.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

zcar - moderators have little remit to be moderate. I regularly stir things up around here - it can get somewhat stale...

Backstabbing and bickering is part of the industry so get used to it - though I think mostly here it is banter. To be frank with you the fact is that the most useful information - the most informative threads - are often those that feature heated debates.

Very many threads fall into the worthy but dull category, impart little and are soon forgotten. Some of the hum dingers we have had have illuminated a range of important issues that otherwise go unknown to many Wannabes.

Look at Wannabe threads that run over 4 pages or more and they are usually argumentative and inflammatory. Nevertheless - they tend as a class to contain more insight and information than the norm.

Cheers

WWW

[Mooneyboy]

Hate to look thick but what does hum dingers mean?

Mooneyboy

[The Butler]

What's important here is not what the hiring is like now, its what its gonna be like in 2 yrs time when us wanabees are looking for that first job. If things carry on as they are doing at the mo, i.e/ gradually picking up and more hiring slowly but surely (so I believe) then what does anyone reckon the difference is gonna be then? Will there be any preferences over modular or integrated? Any thoughts WWW or Scroggs?

Ive heard loads of opinions from different people already in the industry, some saying that you're best doing integrated and others saying its a waste of money. So what the f do ya do?

Another thing, the main problem with deciding on the route is that its only really for that first job. Once you\'ve got the hours behind you in a jet, its a lot easier to find work yeah? no matter where you went.

Ive heard of these places in the states where you can buy a type rating AND hours flying on them as a package. An expensive package, I think $55000 for 737/757/767 with x number of hours. I can\'t remember the exact amount sorry.

Integrated + type rating + living costs etc = c.£100,000

Modular + type rating + 250 or so hours on type + extra = more like £75,000?

Im not going for exact figures here so dont have a go about them, my point is that its quite a bit less and you\'ve got a little bit of experience.

I haven\'t looked into these deals properly yet but they sound like a good idea. Any thoughts?

Sounds like a lot of farting about though...:p

[PPRuNe Towers]

The average age of wannabees here is in the early twenties. Training is an unfortunate, expensive but very brief part of a career that, hopefully, lasts 30, and in some cases, 40 years as a professional.

Therefore our mods are strictly here to ease the passage through a world based on making a living from you for a finite target period.

Their remit is to make every possible effort to put wannabees straight - especially if they don't like it. Two mods counter both the helpless, naive and uniformed and the blandishments of those making a living from you.

The mods are here to see you enter a career measured in decades and not to help those in the flight training industry pay this month's mortgage. This can seem a little unsettling in a world where everyone else in print, on the web and in person promises they are the not only the best but promises to 'love you long, long time.'

When someone gets short shrift here it's making a point to wannabees in general. Should this be discomfitting to you a representative of a training organisation will be along shortly to stroke you, your brow, ego and credit line.

The mods are doing exactly what we expect of them and a perusal of their collected posts will demonstrate the art of using 'tone' to pass on a deeper meaning.

You're probably here for the long run - we'll still be here long after you abandon this forum making sure there's reliable, non commercial pointers to finding high quality providers. They are absolutely, definitely out there but this forum simply wouldn't exist if it was simple and straightforward to find them and also a plan that suits you.

Regards
Rob Lloyd

[captaintrigger]

Just to let you know I did my ATPL Groundschool, CPL,ME-IR and MCC at EPTA.

Not only was the cost of Training about £18,000 cheaper that oxfords modular course, the training is great too.

The Groundschool is Amazing, Keith Williams and his team are the best Instructors in the business. Offering to stay behind after class and during lunch hours.

The Flying side is Fantastic too. Its the staff at EPTA that really make it a fantastic School. Vic Foyle & Ernie Ball Are Truly Amazing!!!!!! The aircraft are Tidy and well equipped and Bournemouth Airport itself is a great place to train.

The MCC is very Professional and Very well done.

As you can see I was very pleased with EPTA and I would reccomend them to anyone.

The only Gripe that i have with them is that when you finish the course there is very little help in preparing you for applying for jobs or giving you any contacts.( is that worth the £18,000 difference in oxfords prices)

Nevertheless.....a great Place to train.

[zcar]

WWW I feel you have somewhat missed my point. I am all for heated debate, love it in fact, and appear to have provoked the beginnings of one here with you and Scroggs. This is a good thing, for which I do not apologise.

My point was to do with personal remarks about people. Not heated discourse, or even controversy. I felt strongly so I commented, which I think is what you expect to be able to do yourself, and quite rightly.

If you are required to call people that name to which Scroggs referred instead of intelligently firing back when someone provokes you, it says something about your argument.

Argue by all means. No one is asking for a yes man. But don't be tempted by cheap remarks, with asterisks in the middle of them, in an effort to tone down their extreme nature. There are people here who don't think it is too clever, and perhaps expect more from someone who holds the mildly authoritative position of moderator.

Sure there is backstabbing in the industry, but I don't have to like it. I am not new to this industry at all, and if I want to tackle someone like you or Scroggs then I don't see why I should not. Why should I get used to your opinion, or the way you phrase it? Why can I not question it here? The answer is that I can and I will and I have done.

You appear to speak from a position of experience. Fair one. This does not make you beyond reproach. I understand from your comments that you should be allowed to say what you like, when you like, and in an insulting way if you like. It is only the latter to which I object.

Sure others here allow themselves to be consumed with the bickering and backstabbing which occurs, but if you are to moderate others comments, than you ought be a little, if not a lot, whiter than they. This inevitably makes your role a more challenging one, question is are all moderators up to it? Perhaps you would answer that inflammatory question.

[Mooneyboy]

Thanks to captaintrigger for sharing his experiences of EPTA. I know that obviously the flying and groundschool is the most important factor but what type of accomodation did you use and what did you think of the city of Bournemouth ( please don't interpet this as me looking at training as though it will be a party everynight).

One question to people like Butler, WWW and Zcar. If you were an airline and you wanted fifty pilots of F/O type ab intio. Where would you find the students from.

Me personally ( I know I don't have a realistic idea of what it's like to be an airline owner) I would take students from the top intergrated flight schools.

On the other hand I might want to save money and want new applicants to be type rated saving millions. This means I would advertise on something like ppjn. What do you reckon airlines would do?

Is it true that some airlines only want their type ratings for their pilots.

Cheers

Mooneyboy

[Gin Slinger]

Mooney Boy, here are some of my thoughts to the points you raise:-

1. Regarding EPTA, I did my CPL/IR/MCC and found overall the standard of tuition was very good. I did have some problems with aircraft serviceability, but the fact is GA aircraft do get pretty frail in their old age (actually not just GA aircraft, but that’s another story!). EPTA changed their maintenance organisation whilst I was there (1st half of ’03) and things did improve significantly. I can’t really comment on the groundschool other than Keith Williams is very experienced in this area and the exam results (at least for the self funded guys ;)) were very good.

Now flying for an airline, even with hindsight my MCC course was very professionally run and well thought out. Don’t get too excited about what sort of sim an MCC is run on. You are there to learn multi-crew skills, not to get a type rating for that specific type. Even if you do an MCC and JOC on lets say a B737, if you do land a job on a B737, you will have to do a full type rating anyway - i.e. no advantage to anybody.

You will need to let your hair down regularly during your flight training and Bournemouth provides plenty of places to do so. Don’t be ashamed to do so. Flight training is stressful!

2. Airlines don’t approach flight schools asking for 50 perspective F/Os - fact. More likely they will firstly look through the big pile of CVs they have accumulated for applicants that fit the profile they’re looking for – ideally type rated guys with decent experience on type. They might also place an advert in Flight International, and perhaps approach an agency like Parc if they need crews really quickly.

3. ‘top intergrated flight schools’ teach students to fly light aircraft and pass through the CAA hoops, none of them is a TRTO (Type Rating Training Organisation) or can offer line training – fact. Airlines know this and on the whole couldn’t give two hoots about where you trained. They will be interested in how you trained, i.e. just what motivated this guy to keep going when things got tough, that sort of thing.

4. Airlines must ensure their crews follow their particular procedures, which do vary very significantly between airlines – therefore even newly recruited pilots with many thousands of hours on type will need further training. That’s why airlines don't get wildly excited if you buy somebody elses 'off the shelf' type rating. If in addition to this you have significant line flying experience, they might get more interested, because then you are a much better bet to make the required standard.

Hope this helps. Good luck, GS.

[scroggs]

zcar if you don't like our style of moderating, you are free to take your browser elsewhere!

Between WWW and I, we have a great deal of experience of this industry, covering the RAF (from UAS to OCU instructor), small and large flight schools, the process of finding jobs ourselves, and interviewing and assessing other people for those jobs, small and large (and in between) airlines, and a great many other areas of interest to wannabes. We keep ourselves up to date with what's going on through personal contacts in all areas of the industry and careful reading of the industry press. Our advice is borne of long, hard-won experience (WWW has, I believe, around 4500 hours, I have around 12,000).

We have spent years reading the trials, tribulations, problems and questions of the wannabe community, and there are very few topics that we haven't seen before. The vast majority of our readership are intelligent, determined, resourceful, and full of initiative. However, a small minority are none of these things. Some are just lazy. We have no need to indulge the lazy - the industry doesn't want that kind of individual, and there are far too many wannabes per available job. As no-one is paying us to be nice to our readership, and we have no ties to any commercial organisation that can influence wannabes, we feel free to say exactly what we think. The readership can take or leave what we say, but we think you'll find that the majority of our wannabes are happy with both the advice they get and the style it's presented in.

Scroggs

[Mooneyboy]

Thanks to Gin Slinger for the time you've taken to answer my previous question. Your views and many others have convinced me that EPTA is indeed a very good flight school, I will definately be visiting them and taking a look. Would the oponion of EPTA been one the best modular schools in the UK be far from the truth? I also acknowledge your advice to have fun a bit on the course, I think the phrase work, rest and play applies obviously in correct proportions. Also I have taken on board your advice concerning airlines and recruitment.

A question to everyone:

What factors would excite the airlines in a potential F/O. ie what would be the perfect low hour applicant?

Mooneyboy

[Mooneyboy]

Just wondering is there anyone going to ctc selection on the 14th september. Put it on this thread so as not to bore to many people.

Mooneyboy

[Andy Hogg]

Hi Mooneyboy

What can you do to make yourself stand out from the crowd is always a difficult one to answer. All the airlines look for the perfect first officer, but the criteria change depending on who is doing the selecting. Unfortunately although the selection process for the interview is relatively straight forward, CPL/IR class one medical, couple of hundred hours etc, ie can you do the job? After that it becomes more personal in that you have to sit in front of one or more interviewers and convince them that you are the man for the job, this can come down to their personal taste and preferences and this is where the integrated verses modular route comes in to play. Say you get through that then its one to one with the person doing your sim check ride and their personal preferences can also come into play. Now all this personal stuff should not happen and if you ask around it will be denied, but we are all human and the “there was something about that one I did not like” can come into it.
As to what you can do, a degree in a suitable subject helps, showing an actual interest in aviation so what books do you read do not say flight international try Richard Bach or the like as an answer, a second or third language is very useful, and aviation related job experience can swing it for you.
Good luck with your training, go to at least three schools before parting with any cash and talk to the students away from any staff to get the full story about the school and beware of advice that can not be backed up by experience.

[Mooneyboy]

Thanks for the advice Andy Hogg. I acknowledge that a factor in getting an airline job will depend on who is in the selection panel. As for the sim ride I hope my skills will improve through training. I have already tried reading a lot more into aviation, I recently read Neville Duke's autobiograhy which gives a good insight into how aircraft behave near the sound barrier. As for language I know a bit of German and Italian. I can also say I've done the less glamouress jobs such as 8 hour shifts solid washing up in a local pub. The next thing is to choose the right flight school which might be near you.

Thanks for the tips.

Mooneyboy;)

[captaintrigger]

In reply to your question Bournemouth is a great place to stay.
There is alot of reasonably priced accomodation. About £50-£80 a week. I stayed in a lovely little guest house . I paid £75 a week but got bed, breakfast, packed lunch to take to school and a hot evening meal when I got back in. You can't grumble at that ...Right???

epta will provide you with an accomodation list, they have alot of contacts in the area who know that we are pilots under training and therefore offer low cost, high quality accomodation.

I really hope that you choose to go to epta but as mentioned before have a good look around as its a big investment and you want to make sure that you are choosing the right school for you.

If you want that number for the guest house i was in just let me know

Captain Trigger:ok:

[Mooneyboy]

Captaintrigger.

Thanks for the infomation regarding the accomodation. Have to admit the already prepared food by your accomodation would seem very tempting.

Did go down to bournemouth the other day and seemed a nice place but it wasn't to visit EPTA. It was to visit CTC which didn't go to well, got no one else to blame apart from myself. This means I will be visiting flight schools in the next coming weeks since one path has been closed.

Is there much difference between the Cabair at Cranfield and the one at Bournemouth? This is concerning the modular route.

Thanks for the reply

Mooneyboy :ok:

[captaintrigger]

I have got to be honest I dont know about cranfield but have heard that epta is alot better. Epta doesn't have any integrated students which is a big plus as all students are treated the same. I have heard that some schools who have integrated and modular students are alot nicer to integrated students. For instance if there was an integrated student who was about to go flying and the plane went tech then they would take your plane off you and give it to them.
Bournemouth is a great place to train . For instance one of the IR routes is Alderney which is a lovely place to fly too......not that you see much of it behind those screens anyway.
Anyway make sure that you pay them a visit mate.

Take care

CT

[Mooneyboy]

I do understand that there can be friction between modular and intergrated students, I have heard this from my previous flying instrustors ( one may have the moderater of this section). Alderney is a nice place to go especially for a cross country. Don't worry I will be definately be paying EPTA a visit in the very near future.

Best regards.

Mooneyboy;)

[zcar]

Scroggs
Good answer! A total contrast to the style of your early comment, presumably nothing to do with my criticism, but a good answer nonetheless. Cheers for the debate, I think I have been a worthy adversary!

[scroggs]

Had to go back a way to find out what you're talking about - a month is a long time on Pprune!

Cheers, anyway. :p

Scroggs