Mecir + Se Nvfr = Me Nvfr ???

[giddy up]

Can someone explain why this equation does not work???

If you hold a current ME CIR and a SE NVFR, then you can fly a ME at night....as long as you're CIR is current and you satisfy the night recency requirements.

BUT...

If you hold these qualifications you do not qualify for a ME NVFR and have to complete a flight test.....and that flight test can be completed during the day....

From the NVFR section of the Flight Crew Licencing Industry Delegates Handbook found on the CASA website:

Section 8.5 (last bit)

Removal of Single Engine Aeroplane Restriction (Multi-Engine Upgrade)

........The test may be conducted at night or under simulated instrument flight conditions

And according to the 5 or so CASA licencing departments I spoke to today.....

Even though I have recently completed a ME CIR renewal, I would have to do another test to qualify for a "lower" rating, which is only needed for insurance purposes.

Anybody???:mad:

[Bill Smith]

I was under the impression that a holder of a ME CIR could exercise the privilege of a NVFR rating

[AerocatS2A]

Your initial premise is wrong. A holder of a MECIR can fly ME NVFR. From CAO Part 40.2.1 subsection 14:



14 FLIGHT BY NIGHT UNDER NIGHT V.F.R. PROCEDURES

14.1 A particular grade of command instrument rating authorises the holder of the rating to fly an aircraft of the category concerned within Australia as pilot in command, or co-pilot, using the navigation aids endorsed in the holder’s personal log book in the following circumstances:

(a) Private and aerial work flights under night V.F.R. procedures provided the pilot meets the aeronautical and recent experience requirements applicable to a night V.F.R. endorsement.

(b) Charter flights under night V.F.R. procedures, provided the following aeronautical and recent experience requirements are satisfied: <snipped>

Ah, I think I see where you\'re coming from now. You\'re saying that although you can use your MECIR (you don\'t need a SE NVFR by the way) to fly NVFR, you don\'t actually hold a NVFR rating and therefore don\'t meet certain insurance requirements?

In that case you may have better luck convincing the insurance company that a MECIR is as good as a NVFR rating for their purposes.

(That last bit was added as a seperate post but it seems to have been merged into my first post.)

[swh]

Giddy up...

Have a look at this thread.... http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=130015

Have fun working for Jeeeerrrrry

Bill Smith & AerocatS2A ....

Ummm WRONG .....

An operator determins what a pilot will and will not fly, if they have an insurance requirement, its the operator who will roster a pilot to fly, not the pilot.

You can have all the ratings in the world, its still the operator who determins who flies what, they do run the compnay, have the contracts, pay the insurance, decided who they hire and fire.

My tip, dont argue with an operator if they have an insurance requirement, they will find someone else who does.

[AerocatS2A]

Fair enough. There was nothing in the OP that suggested that there was an "operator" involved though. As far as I knew he could be wanting to fly his own aircraft at night and be having trouble with his insurance company.

[Tinstaafl]

Years ago DofA/CAA/CASA/whatever would cancel the SEAO restriction ona SE NVFR if you held both the SE NVFR & a ME CIR. They did for me (automatically when my CIR was issued. I didn't have to request it), and I've seen it done for others automatically or on request.

[Bill Smith]

SWH

Nothing saying an operator was involved!

The question posed was wether he could fly NVFR on a ME CIR without doing ME NVFR rating. :ok:

[swh]

Bill,

Soon as people mention the word insurance...I think operator, some one who is trying to cover their 6.

:hmm:

[Counter-rotation]

I recall having a blue with my CP about this exact thing. We had a charter in the dry, 8/8ths clear sky, but would involve tour of duty exceeding twelve hours. Can we do it??
YES - Go VFR in the multi, with pax, extend the tour with a rest period and come in after dark, VFR IN VMC. I held a ME CIR and SE NVFR at the time.
This is perfectly legal, and a sore point with me 'cause a clown who is supposed to know better let the work float past on the breeze, and I missed out on a good job and some good hours...
Ah well that's life.

CR.

[giddy up]

I realise a ME CIR allows you to fly at night.....its the fact that CASA will not allow the SE restriction to be automatically lifted off the NVFR rating when one gains a ME CIR.....i just don't see the logic.

[drshmoo]

Counter-rotation

'cause a clown who is supposed to know better let the work float past on the breeze, and I missed out on a good job and some good hours...

I've never heard of an operator turning down a job cause they were not happy with the Flight/Duty times (right or wrong) restrictions. It is refreshing that there are operators out their that actually bother to forecast potential problems and say no to a job. Most operators that I have been in contact with book the job then worry about what rules will be broken

[Angle of Attack]

Hi Giddy, up, I was in the same situation as you, I had a S/E NVFR then got a twin rating but cant fly the twin at night under NVFR. So the test was simply climbing to 1500ft having an engine failure at night then thats it, 0.3 and I had my M/E Night VFR rating. I think the reason you cant transfer is that you havent experienced an engine failure at night so its not automatic. As for M/E CIR yes you can excercise priveleges of NVFR but without going back into the books, I know there is a catch there, you at least need your S/E NVFR to have the required experience to do it, and there are recency points as well. So if you havent done S/E NVFR it is almost impossible to do it. Dont ask me for a reference Im going several years back, but I know there is something. But if ya want a M/E NVFR rating its a piece os pi$$ to get! cheers!

[bush mechanics]

Did anyone see the NVFR quiz in the last flight safey?
Question 2
The answer is on the next page,This may confuse people a bit more.

[the wizard of auz]

I was under the impresion that simulated emergency procedures/engine failures were verboten in the dark.:confused:

[swh]

Wiz,

Simulated emerg okay 1500 ft AGL, in the AIP

:hmm:

[Tinstaafl]

AoA, not quite correct. You don't *need* a N.VFR rating to gain N.VFR privileges on a CIR. You *need* a certain amount & type of flight under N.VFR.

That amount & type is pretty much the same as what one would get if one did a N.VFR however there's no requirement to do a test.

The disadvantage of not doing the N.VFR rating ie relying on CIR N.VFR privileges is that those privileges disappear with when the CIR lapses. A N.VFR rating is permanently valid.

Giddy up, as I wrote earlier DoA/CAA/CASA used to do this automatically. If it didn't happen automatically then you could front up to the office & they'd do it on request. Have you tried going in person & speaking to an FOI about it?

[the wizard of auz]

swh alright for those of you who have nothing better to do than read the AIP's. I can't keep up with the amendments and I have no intention of being an instructor and I already have the rating, so that one slipped by me. :hmm:

[Counter-rotation]

I'd never heard of it either, particularly when the supposed breach of F&D didn't actually exist (some people however have egos which don't permit them to be corrected by a "lesser" person).
But my point was not about F&D anyway, but the distinction between ME NVFR (under a ME NVFR rating) and ME NVFR under the privilege of a ME CIR. As has been said here many times, and I'm sure you know: CAO 40.2.1 Sec 14

Sorry for the late reply...

CR.

[Tinstaafl]

A significant point: A N.VFR rating is *NOT* able to be used for N.VFR charter not matter how many engines the a/c has. Aerial work, yes, but not charter.

Night VFR procedures, using the N.VFR privileges of a CIR is the only way to do it.

[the wizard of auz]

I thought Night VFR charter was allowed.......if the pilot was the holder of a current MECIR and the charter was conducted in a multi engined aircraft. :confused:

[AerocatS2A]

That is what he is saying. You can't do night VFR charter if you only have a NVFR rating. You need a CIR, in fact you only need a CIR, you don't need a NVFR at all.