PPL nav before GFPT?

[strewth]

G'day,. .. .I have some students that are planning on beginning their PPL navs before having gained their GFPT's. Can anyone see a problem with this? We might have some difficluty considering the limitations of a SPL (no more than three consecutive hours in command with out a dual check /no gfpt) and planning nav routes so that all of the syllabus can be taken into account. . .. .Any ideas?

[Gunner B12]

Only being a student myself (I was in here looking for ideas for pax briefings) I have to ask the question.......Who is in charge???. .Every school I have ever attended in any learning experience the teacher said what we learned and when. Is there not a risk that something which should have been learned to pass the GFPT gets overlooked in the race to do navs and that is the downfall of the over eager student?. .Where will your insurance company stand if you allow a student to skip around the syllabus and an accident happens?. .I know you don't have to actually take the GFPT to go on to the PPL but are they at the standard required to do the navs and are you willing to risk your job on them?

[Charlie Foxtrot India]

The GFPT is a student pilot's privilege to carry pax in the training area and go for longer hours and calendar time between dual checks. It is an optional extra, and unless people want to carry pax locally, the GFPT is often a waste of time and money, and can also cause the student to lose momentum in their training. All the elements have to be retested at the PPL test anyway.. .Unless the instructor is behaving very irresponsibly then there should be no "risk" of bits of the syllabus being left out prior to starting nav training, as the student should be at the GFPT standard at the end of that phase of training whether they do the test or not.. .I would say that sending a student off on a solo nav which was more than three hours long is a bit much. It only has to be 150 miles long, so unless you are in an aircraft that cruises at around 50 knots or less (!) it shouldn't be a problem, even here in WA with limited numbers of suitable aerodromes for student solo.

[Turbine]

I wouldn't ever have GFPT guys do a Nav without first passing the PPL exam and additional briefing work.. .. .Personally, I think it's a waste of time and money. All your attention should be focused on the General tasks at hand.... .. ....having said that, when I was teaching in Sydney I used to use a "nav" into the Sydney zone over the Bridge and CBD to motivate students if it was ever required. However, it was only short and sweet and didn't really call for serious navigation skills (and you could easily apply various GFPT exercises in the hour)!. .. .strewth, you're the boss. They should only ever be planning something if you told them to do it!

[Turbine]

Hello CFI,. .. . </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica"> …the GFPT is often a waste of time and money, and can also cause the student to lose momentum in their training. All the elements have to be retested at the PPL test anyway.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">I always found that skipping the GFPT was a really bad choice unless the student was undertaking an ‘accelerated’ course where the time between GFPT completion and the PPL flight test was minimal.. .. . </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica"> All the elements have to be retested at the PPL test anyway.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">It’s been a while since I did a PPL test but I always remember things like stalling and steep turns weren’t required for a re-test in the PPL flight test if a GFPT had been completed. If a student completes the GFPT then they don’t have to be burdened with the additional stress of difficult sequences after a long and tiresome nav – or doing a nav after disorientating and awkward sequences. . .. .Having to do exercises like stalling, steep turns and various sequences in the circuit at the completion of a PPL test would be pretty difficult after a long break of Navigation training. I’ve always found the GFPT and PPL to be like chalk and cheese.. .. .I always found it was nice to subject students to the ‘torture’ <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="smile.gif" /> of a GFPT test in preparation for other flight tests as well....and got them used to me (if I hadn't already flown with them).. .. . </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica"> Unless the instructor is behaving very irresponsibly</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">I have seen this time and time over. Junior instructors are normally those at fault…wanting to clock up navigation time for a Grade 2 rating or simply because they just want to get out of the local training area themselves <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="mad.gif" /> . .. .Sorry to pick your post there CFI but I have always tended to do things just a little bit different.. .. .One again strewth, unless you’re a Grade 1 with a bit of instructional experience behind you, I would tend to suggest you work within the published guidelines in your Ops Manual training syllabus. Definitely don’t let your students fly a solo nav without having had completed the pre PPL (GFPT) syllabus for obvious reasons.

[strewth]

Perhaps I was vague. The student is one of our students and we were discussing the legality of sending them on solo navs. I agree that pre PPL the navs should not be too long for many reasons, especially fatigue. The main problem is this. For the student to get solo practice of an MBZ, will require a longish flight (around that 3 hour mark) and such a nav would almost be a direct track from the departure point and destination... return (along a major highway no less...) . .. .As far as questions go about whether a student should be conducting navigational flights without having passed a GFPT.... face it, what is a GFPT? A test of general flying skills. Would you honestly send a student on their first solo nav if YOU personally weren’t' comfortable with their abilities to control the aircraft on say, a solo area flight? with pax? with limited recency? without having been checked within the last 15 hours? . .. .Didn’t think so. . .. .Thanks all

[Charlie Foxtrot India]

Hi Turbine,. .. .On the CASA page you can download the Day VFR syllabus and the current flight test form, which has been in use for around three years now. All elements have to be tested at PPL whether they have a GFPT or not, and should be to a higher standard than at GFPT stage.. .. .Obviously you wouldn't enter someone for test if they hadn't done a steep turn etc for several months, so all this has to be brushed up beforehand, and the achievement records have to be signed that they have reached the required standard. Especially when your friendly local FOI may come and do the test for you!. .. .Most of the general elements can be incorporated into the mock and real PPL test without having to do them as a separate exercise, eg you can do the circuits, EFATO etc at the first destination, then give them the forced landing, followed by a precautionary search of the paddock they chose for the forced landing, and then go off on the low level leg. From there, slap on the foggles, climb up to a safe altitude IF, back to visual and then do a couple of stall recoveries and steep turns. After that they should be able to orientate themselves, and from there I give them the diversion, then home to finish off with a short field landing.. .. .This simulates a situation where they can show that even if they get into a bit of strife they can recover and successfully divert. If they can't handle continuing the flight after difficult and disorientating sequences they aren't fit to hold a PPL.. .. .Re your post, Strewth, MBZs are few and far between, the nearest one here in daylight hours is two hours flying time away; the syllabus doesn't call for a solo trip to an MBZ, especaily as in your area it sounds like it wouldn't be very beneficial to the student just to go straight there and back, better to do a triangular nav with a CTAF included. But surely your CFI has the nav routes laid out in the ops manual, it's not up to the other instructors to make them up?

[Turbine]

Hi again CFI.. .. .Just downloaded all the new forms and had a look at the <a href="http://www.casa.gov.au/manuals/regulate/fcl/form077.pdf" target="_blank">PPL flight test form</a>...thanks heaps for that!!!

[philr]

I feel that doing a GFPT ( basically a handling check) takes a great deal of pressure off of a newbie...the PPL flight test then becomes a NAVEX...a little more realistic no?

[jmore]

I would tend towards handing my student over to another qualified instructor prior to sending them solo for a basic flight encompassing all of the appropriate maneuvers etc then once the solo is done and dusted the navs enter -i do operate on the FAA syllabus though and this is typical of many just to ensure that you have covered everything that is necessary- however i am unsure how it works in europe but a 4 hour solo cross country flight isnt unusual in the states (the candidate generally flys the route with and instructor prior to doing it solo)