How to log club checkout time?

[InTheAir]

There is currently a thread on the Private Flying forum which I would like some instructors who carry out club checkouts to respond and offer their opinions.

Thanks:

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=1456312#post1456312

[pondlife]

OK - I'll add my personal procedure to get the thread started.

First, according to the letter of the law, in a single pilot aeroplane P1s cannot be used unless it is by the candidate for a (successful) flight test required for the issue of a licence or rating - it can't be used at any other time.
So..., regarding a club check, if I'm logging P1 as captain and the checkee asks about using P1s then I say that they aren't strictly supposed to use it but a lot of people do and I just won't look. If I'm captain (P1) then, strictly, the checkee should log Put.


When the customer is legally entitled to captain the flight and carry me as a non-crew passenger, it is very important to establish who is captain prior to the flight commencing.

My personal attitude is that I'm either responsible for the safe conduct of the flight or I'm not and I explain this to the customer in words of one syllable if necessary. If I am to be responsible for the safe conduct of the flight then I insist on being the captain. If I am not responsible for the safe conduct of the flight then I don't mind being a non-crew passenger. If I'm a non-crew passenger then I may still make "suggestions" during the flight so long as the captain agrees to me doing so - but wether he takes my suggestions or not is up to him.

Occasionally, the customer will ask if he can be "captain" until he doesn't like the way it's going and then swap captaincy. I don't allow this - I either take responsibility (as captain) or I don't.


I only have a negotiation of captaincy if the customer is already known to the club. If it is a completely unknown customer who is being "checked-out" for the first time then the club isn't ready to make him responsible for anything that might happen on the flight and so neither am I. I'm either captain or I don't go and, again, I establish this before the flight commences.
With an unknown pilot being checked out I consider it my right to be able to either ask him to do something differently or to take over the flight if I think that my life may otherwise be in danger - I can only do this as captain.

[InTheAir]

pondlife,

What is the checkee to do / assume if the checkout pilot does not declare their captaincy?

Flown with at least 6 checkout pilots at my club, only 2 have ever said, "I have control" at some point during the flight. Does that mean I have the right to log P1? legally?

[NinjaBill]

The captain of the aircraft, and person who logs P1, is the person who has the authority to declare that he has control of the aircraft, irrispective of wether he chooses to exersice this authority.

If an instructor is carrying out a check ride, then that person has the authority to take control of the aircraft, so must log P1. Even if he sits on his hands for the whole flight, he still logs P1.

The other person in the aircraft, who is being checked out must therefore log P1 U/T, (as P1S if for flight tests only), even if he did all of the flying.

There should never be any doubt as to the captaincy of the aircraft, as this itself is a dangerous situation, and if, during the flight, there could be any doubt as to the captaincy, then the person who will be captain for the flight must declare this PRIOR TO TAKEOFF.

This could be as simple as saying 'Im captain, but youre flying' Or could be a more detailed decleration of who will take control if various situations'. To not do so could lead to the dangerous situation of not knowing who was in charge in the case of an emergency

NB

[RodgerF]

Quotes

What is the checkee to do / assume if the checkout pilot does not declare their captaincy?


This could be as simple as saying 'Im captain, but youre flying' Or could be a more detailed decleration of who will take control if various situations'.


Why all this angst? Whoever signs the tech log or booking out sheet entry before flight as captain is the captain.

[pondlife]

It's all much simpler than you might think InTheAir.

Where is the possibility of ambiguity, the captaincy MUST be established prior to the flight commencing. It is all to do with responsibility and authority for the flight.

Manipulation of the controls does not imply captaincy.

[Sprawler]

pondlife,

If you both agree that the customer is to be Captain, P.1, and you are a non-crew passenger, would you normally counter sign their logbook? Just wondering as my club has a policy that if you haven't flown in 4 weeks you need to be checked out for insurance purposes. Both times I've logged the time as P.1 but the instructor has also countersigned my log book. I'm wondering if I should now change this to Pu/t?

['I' in the sky]

Sprawler.

A P1 flight should not be countersigned. If you are P1 by what authority and to what purpose does anybody else countersign your flight ?

I remember some years ago sending my logbook off to the CAA to be assessed for the issue of something, can't remember which rating and it coming back with various pencil marks arrowing about 5 lines from the PIC column into the dual column. The concerned flights were all club 4-weekly checkouts logged as P1/s and countersigned.

I dare say it all depends on who checks your logbook. Somebody less observant may not have even spotted it.

[FlyingForFun]

I have to agree with every single word Pondlife has said on this thread - that's exactly the way I interpret what few regulations there on this subject too.

The only thing I would add is that it's about time the CAA clarified this situation in some official document. This debate has been going on certainly for the few years I've been in aviation, and almost certainly for many many years before that too, and to not have any official guidance is absolutely ridiculous.

FFF
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[pickingupice]

I disagree you may log PICUS if you hold the rating and are legally allowed to fly the aircraft without a checkout.

this pilot in command time will not count for a JAR licence issue, see page 40 LASORS, if I remember correctly.

IF any instruction is given and then the checkout should be logged as PUT.

When logging PICUS the other persons name must go in as captains, but you may log the time in the PIC column

[Say again s l o w l y]

To be honest, it is a pretty clear from LASOR's. P1CUS is for successful flight tests, P1 obviously if you are in sole charge and P/UT if you have to have somebody sitting next to you for what ever reason.

The only reason people argue about it is because their ego's say"well I've a licence, therefore I should be in charge, I don't need anymore training."
Who really cares what the flight goes down as, we're not talking about huge numbers of flights and the total time goes up at the same rate whether its P1, P/UT or PICUS.

[bookworm]

To be honest, it is a pretty clear from LASOR's. P1CUS is for successful flight tests, P1 obviously if you are in sole charge and P/UT if you have to have somebody sitting next to you for what ever reason.

All sorts of reasons for having to have someone sitting next to you that do not preclude you being commander of the aircraft.

‘Commander’ in relation to an aircraft means the member of the flight crew designated as commander of that aircraft by the operator thereof, or, failing such a person, the person who is for the time being the pilot in command of the aircraft;

While the ANO does acknowledge the vagueness of not having a commander designated, it really is as simple as pondlife says. The operator designates the commander before the flight. If the operator permits and both pilots are legally entitled to fly the aircraft, either can be so designated. But there's really no excuse for two crew wandering up to an aircraft to fly it and them not knowing who is the commander.

[Say again s l o w l y]

Agreed absolutely, If I'm sitting next to you, then I'm in charge. Simple really... On a 'checkout' the person being looked at completes the manouveres that the FI requests, to me that shows that the FI is in command, even if they aren't actually manipulating the controls.
Therefore the whole debate about P/UT or P1 becomes null and void.

[bookworm]

On a 'checkout' the person being looked at completes the manouveres that the FI requests, to me that shows that the FI is in command...

But that's the whole point -- it's not about actions indicating which one is in command. It's about agreeing which one is in command before the flight. There is no reason in principle why a check pilot must be the commander, but most check pilots who are FIs would expect to be in typical club circumstances.

[Say again s l o w l y]

To me that's the same thing. I've got to be there to satisfy club/insurance or CAA requirements and to keep me happy they must do what I command them to do. Therefore I'm in command. If you agree to having a checkout, then you are to me agreeing that you will follow my instructions.
I liken this to the difference between a Capt. and an F/O, Whilst the First Officer is flying he/she will take the decisions about how the a/c is actually flown, BUT the capt. always has the final say so, if they don't like what is occuring, then they will either take control or hopefully give a prompting in good time just to remind the F/O of SOP's etc. There is never any doubt as to who is in command here, I see club checks in exactly the same light.
I realise we're getting down to semantics here, but if the check pilot isn't an FI, then only one person can log the flight. This then opens another whole can of (book)worms about group checkouts rather than a club check that is more than likely to be done by an FI.

[bookworm]

I realise we're getting down to semantics here,

I think we probably are. I can think of many circumstances in which a second pilot who might be called a "check pilot" might be carried without being in command, but I can't think of many that wouldn't stretch the usual interpretation of a "club checkout".

[BEagle]

If I do a club check, I will be commander. The other pilot will act under supervision even if I do not actually touch the controls. If I'm not satisfied with the check, then it's Pu/t for the pilot being checked, most assuredly. Which is very rare indeed. Otherwise I tell them that they must log my name as commander and suggest that 'P1 under supervision' is the most accurate description of what they've just been doing. And to hell with JARs - and hours building wannabes who think that they've been robbed of an hour's 'command' time. Don't like it? Simple - stay in current practice and you won't have to do a club check except for an annual one. Which you may not log as PiC either!

At the end of the day it doesn't matter how its logged - except that it will not be as PiC - and it won't be countable towards any P1 total required for licence issue, just TT.

[jsf]

At most clubs and schools the currency check ride is because people have let their currency lapse to beyond a time period deemed (usually by the insurers) for them to fly the aircraft as Pilot in Command and therefore need to be checked by an instructor.

How can they therefore act as pilot in comand if the purpose of the check ride is to revalidate their currency requirements to act as pilot in command.

It is a training detail in the same way as a check ride with a student before sending them solo. They would log that as p.u.t so why not a check ride.

As for deciding in advance who is in command.......in principle Yes. In practice if the 55 hour PPL who I am acting as safety pilot for starts to fly like a T*at and is likely to hurt me.....I will take command, and leave no doubt as to that fact and as to why. The student will then be in receipt of instruction and will be p.u.t for the whole flight.

jsf

[homeguard]

I don't know of any insurance underwriters who require more to be done other than that which is required by legislation. Most underwriters (there is only a few) simply insure for the legal operation of the aircraft, minimum hours of experience being demanded for the more complex types.

Club checks are for the club to protect their property. Nothing to do with insurers. The issue here, reading between the lines, is shall the Instructor log the time (hour building syndrome) or the PPL who is being OBSERVED, although clearly not being trained.

If a PPL undertaking a check demanded by me the owner (flying school) satisfies me that they are safe with what is mine - then simple - they log P1 and I do not log it at all! If they are not competent or safe then it becomes a lesson and I take command. Training will take place. The PPL logs Put and I log P1.

The rules are clear and need no further explaining by the CAA. P1s may only be logged by a supervised pilot flying a multi-crew aircraft or any Pilot when undertaking a test for the issue/renewal of a licence or rating.

[wobblyprop]

If I have to take control during a checkout, and I'm flying from and unlicensed airfield, I can log P1 but can they log P/ut?

[Send Clowns]

Yes - only training towards a licence or rating must be flown from a licenced airfield.

[Big Pistons Forever]

My approach to checkouts is really simple. I consider it the same as any other instruction flight. Wether I am conducting a flight to teach a PPL, slow flight or a CPL, navigation or a aerobatics rating, barrel rolls or a tailwheel endoresement, wheel landings; etc etc ; its all the same.
By that I mean everyflight starts with a preflight briefing which sets out what is to be accomplished, including all manoevers to be flown and what the desired outcome is. The flight is then flown as breifed and a post flight debriefing is carried out.
A currency check as discribed above is exactly the same. In this case the aim of the exercise is to determine the individual still possess the required knowledge and skills to safely operate the aircraft. Therefore I log PIC and instructor time and the guy in the left seat logs dual.
BTW my flying club used to let new commercial pilots do currency check outs untill a plane was crashed the day after a checkout.
Since then only an instructors can do them. I support this as I think instructors by virtue of thier training and experience are better able to judge a persons competance
I consider currency checkouts the hardest instructing I do. The flights are very seldom black or white, that is the guy or gal is an ace pilot or completely hopeless. They almost always are in the grey area of not great but still safe. The questions is almost always how good is good enough:\
A final note; my club requires a formal annual recurrent check ride. I always include a forced landing exercise. In over 15 years I
have NEVER had a PPL do an acceptable PFL on the first try. Many in my opinion probably would have been fatal:uhoh:

[Tc Matic]

BPF - How would you log the time if a PPL-holder, already checked out by the club, would ask you to fly with him in order to perfect certain aspects of his flying (e.g X-wind landings). This is instruction, but certainly he also should be able to log this as PIC?

[Say again s l o w l y]

Nope, If the person is recieving instruction, then they are under training and cannot log it a PIC, but only as P/UT. UT meaning Under Training.

[BEagle]

Agreed, Sa s!

.

[Big Pistons Forever]

I tell all my students that if I fly with them then the plane will be operated my way in all respects because I am the PIC. That means if I at any time say I have control they let go of all controls and all inflight decisions will be approved by me. That way if something bad happens there is no confusion on who is going to do what. If they do not agree to these conditions then I respectfully suggest they fly with someone else.

In Tc Matic's case what happens if the engine were to fail during one of your X-wind circuits ? Who would fly the forced approach ? Or say one of those landings starts to go pear shaped and the aircraft is in danger of going off the side of the runway. Would you expect the FI to take over? In both those example I would suggest when the S*** hits the fan is not a good time to discuss who is in charge, the PPL holder looking for some tips acting as PIC or the FI.

I have had two instances where we turned back before we finished the runup because of demonstrated poor airmanship and the pilots unwillingness to comply with my instructions. I do not want to appear arrogant but I truly believe this is the safest way to go and I as an instructor have a duty to point out poor practices and sugest in a constructive way other, in my opinion, superior methods of aviating.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

It is really quite simple.

There can only be one person responsible for any flight, the PIC has to be decided before you start.

Logging of time is secondary to who is responsible.

I am not an " Instructor " but I earn my living teaching people how to fly aircraft and there is never any question of who is in command and can take control at any time if the need arises.

If someone wishes to receive dual instruction they by default must accept that the person teaching is in command.

Chuck

[BEagle]

In JAR-speak, Chuck, you would probably be a Type Rating Instructor for the PBY.

The person conducting the check-out will always be the PIC; the other person must log it as something else.

This question keeps coming up - surely it isn't that difficult to understand?

[Tc Matic]

I think everyone agrees there can only be one person in command of the aircraft, and this is the FI. This is clearly briefed before each flight and in case anything goes wrong, there is no doubt that the FI will take control of the airplane.
However, at the FTO where I instruct, we let students log certain flights as SPIC. In that case, both the instructor and the student do log the flight as PIC.
I was under the impression that these SPIC hours were (according to the Jar's) regarded as real PIC hours (for instance, they count towards the 1500 PIC you need to unfreeze the ATPL).
Not sure if I am missing the point here?

[Chuck Ellsworth]

BEagle :

Yes, it really is academic because part of the take off briefing can or will contain the statement " should it go wrong I will say I have control and you release the controls to me".

Who has control is one of the most important considerations safety wise when flying with two pilots, and who is in command or responsible for any and all flights has to be clear before you even get in the airplane.

As to the "instructor" thing, I was a certified flight instructor many moons ago but allowed it to lapse as I had no need for it.

It would be beyond my ability to renew it now as several years ago I made the attempt. However I just could not go through all the B.S. and parrot back all the stuff that the TC inspectors want to hear.....I had considered getting a lobotomy so as to be able to think like them but the cost was prohibitive so I did not finish. :D

Chuck