737 response to flight yoke movements

[Byrna]

Hello everyone,
About 2 months ago, I had posted a question regarding 737 responsiveness versus the A320 and now I just want to pose another handling question to all the wonderful pilots on this website.

I use Microsoft Flight Simulator 2004 and I am not a real pilot but I have really grown to get a feel for flying medium-sized and large jets - in particular the 737-700, and -400, the 757-200 and the 747-400 as well as the Airbus A320-200. Since my last post, I have purchased an add-on aircraft (the 737NG series -600 and -700) which is by PMDG (precision manuals developement group). While this purchased (payware) aircraft responds as perkily as some of you said it did in response to my last post (much better than the freeware and the Microsoft default 737), I suspect that perhaps either my flight yoke is too sensitive in its calibration or that that airplane IS THAT SENSITIVE IN REAL LIFE.

My question is: Does a 737 start turning noticeably (say 1 degree or so) EVEN IF the flight yoke is moved only about 1/8 inch (to the left or right)? Same thing with the rudder pedals. I have reduced the sensitivies of both my flight yoke and the pedals but would rather know exactly how sensitive the plane's movements are to the movements of the ailerons and rudder. Even though I can land without any problems, I find I get into what I believe is called "pilot-induced oscillation" whereby lining the plane up with the runway on the final is a real adventure if I move the yoke more than a tiny amount (which I estimate around 1/8 inch as mentioned above).

Any input would be greatly appreciated...

John

[triplespool]

I would say yes to how sensitive it is on the real aircraft. But no two planes are the same one could be very 'perky' the other a 'slow old dog'. One area you should look at is the use of rudder, it is not used during the flight apart from T/O and Landing or single engine work. The yaw damper does all the work, using it in the air it would be all over the place, its just to big!
Trip

[mstram]

Hi John,

How are ya eh ? :)

Where are you in Canada? I'm in Toronto.

I'm not a 737 or any other kind of jet pilot, but I have a ppl and have flown "spam cans". (C172, Piper Warrior, Cub, and gliders).

Have you ever taken a flight lesson or intro flight? If not, even if you only take one, you'll probably love it. (And hate me for suggesting it, as you'll then get an uncontrollable urge to spend money on flight training ! :) ) Even cheaper if you start off with gliders (sailplanes / soaring).

Anyway, in a small plane, and most other kinds (I think) , the controls get more sensitive as the airspeed increases. I'm sure you've already seen this in the sim, which is fairly representative of what really happens.

Even in a 172, at cruise, you only need to apply some pressure to make the plane climb or descend, you hardly notice the yoke moment. I'm guessing that from the increase in speed alone, that effect is magnified in a jet ???

Banking tends to take more yoke movement, but at typical banks of 25-30 deg, not a whole lot, maybe 1/8 - 1/4 of a turn.

Do you have the Pic 767 addon ? Many rw pilots have said that the handling in that is very similar to the real thing

Do you visit www.avsim.com ? If not, they are (were ?) having a flight sim convention near UAL's training and were arranging for flight time in a Level D simulator.

Mike

P.S. Have you read this article ?

http://www.avweb.com/news/avtraining/182364-1.html

"After the initial jitters begin to evaporate, I settle in and feel pretty good. I am actually flying a B-737 and not breaking too many FARs in the process! Heck, this machine is nothing but a Cherokee on steroids! I maintain pitch at about 4 degrees nose up to keep level. This animal is very pitch-sensitive but sluggish in roll, just as advertised in class"

[Byrna]

HI Mike,
Thanks for the reply.
I see your point about speed and the response sensitivity of the yoke...
Do you also get sluggish response on your Cessna 172 when it's moderately windy (say, around 15 knots or so)?

I'll see if lessons are worth the money but definitely not now.
I'd love to be an airline pilot but I'm 40 and haven't even my private pilot's licence yet ... might be a little late. What do you think?

John

[mstram]

>Do you also get sluggish response on your Cessna 172 when it's
moderately windy (say, around 15 knots or so)?

Uhh, not really. Why would you ask that ? ... unless you're comparing the way MSfS models wind. I always have the wind turned off in MSFS as it's not very realistic IMO, especially the gusts. I've flown in some pretty gusty conditions, and even a small plane doesn't "jerk" back and forth like in MSFS.

>I'll see if lessons are worth the money but definitely not now.

I know it's expensive, but life is short ..... :)

You can just take an intro flight at ~50.00 for 30-40 minutes (power), and about the same for a glider. Just to see what the real thing is like.

>I'd love to be an airline pilot but I'm 40 and haven't even my private pilot's
licence yet ... might be a little late.

Probably unlikely in today's market. But if you really want something ...
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=6911


I don't know if I'd want to be an airline pilot from all that I've read about the job.

Now flying the plane is a different story. I'd love to fly a big jet at least once. Doing touch and goes' in a 747, 777, 330 would be fantastic !

I can probably realistically at least fly a business jet, if I ever get motivated enough (i.e. $$$$). :)

Mike

[NSEU]

"Even in a 172, at cruise, you only need to apply some pressure to make the plane climb or descend, you hardly notice the yoke moment. I'm guessing that from the increase in speed alone, that effect is magnified in a jet ???"

If we are talking about "pressure", then no. Modern jets provide "Elevator Feel" which makes it really hard to move the control column fore/aft at high speeds. Unfortunately, PC joysticks don't have variable feel.

If we are talking about the movement of the control column in terms of angles, then, in most cases, if you move the control column at higher speeds to angle "x" you would get a much more abrupt pitch change than if you moved the control column to angle x at low speeds.

Rudder control is slightly different. As you fly faster, the movement of the rudder is restricted (Your rudder pedals become less effective at moving the rudder).

Ailerons are different again. On the bigger jets with inboard and outboard ailerons, the outboards are locked at high speed (and/or when the flaps are up). Spoiler movement may also be changed.

Byrna... Add a few extra rubber bands to your control column when flying at high speeds ;)

Rgds.
NSEU

[Byrna]

Thanks "mstram" for the very enlightening (and relieving) mention of how badly the winds/weather is programmed in the AI in Microsoft Flight Simulator 2004!

I was going absolutely bananas when trying to land this week in a [badly] simulated "major thunderstorm". Using a 737-700, the plane was literally moving sideways (at approximately 10 degree angle to the runway) despite my attempts at correcting the "skid" by adjusting the rudder trim, the rudder - to no avail. I finally had to break the rules (as far as I know anyways) by applying the ailerons and banking the airplane in a final angry - in fact furious - attempt to correct the B.S. handling I was stuck with thanks to the negligence of Microsoft in doing their homework.

I have heard of other third-party weather programs. Have you ever used them and are they realistic in terms of how they simulate the winds compared to the nonsense one sees in MSFS?

By the way, I forgot to answer your last post regarding where I'm from - I'm in Montreal, eh?!

John

[vdive]

You can't compare the flight dynamics from the standard MS Boeing with the real aircraft. If any real plane would be that pitch and roll sensitive as in the MS Sim, we would have a hard time flying at all :} . Hmm, how could one describe that. With the aircraft, you have much more resistance with some degree of neutral movement. Just watch a real approach with a 737 once and you will see how much you can play with this yoke and how gentle the aircraft will react.

You might want to consider a 737 payware add-on program instead ? Have seen that these come a bit closer to the real thing that the regular MS aircraft.

[Easy226]

I have used flight sim for a few years now and have found that it is very different to real life flying ( handling wise) - im talking about flying the Cessnas and Pipers on there ( im only a PPL holder at the moment!). When flying you feel the forces associated with the aircraft and the effect of wind on landing (and during other stages of flight).
When flying on flight sim i do enjoy it but appreciate that it is only a simulator. If I want to make FS as realistic as possible (when flying the jets), i get used to using the autopilot throughout the whole flight and see how well i can program the FMC for various stages of the flight.
Many Thanks
Dan

[SOPS]

:O as a side note, with over 7000 hours on real 737s including 2000 on NGs, not one aircraft is exactly the same as another, and every simulator is slightly different, and not one simulatoe I have ever "flown" has been exactly "true" to an aircraft. Especially. I feel, in pitch.

So perhaps with your computer,similar results could be expected.

Regards SOPS

[Byrna]

Hello again to everyone and thank-you for your very helpful comments.
I have question for Dan (Easy226):
You said that when flying the real Cessna, one feels the effects of the winds but how do the winds in a real Cessna 172 feel compared to the Flight Simulator 2004 Cessna? Is it harder to control in the simulator (which is what others have said about other simulator planes like the 737)?

John

[Bomber Harris]

I find MS flt sim NOT like the real thing (i fly 737). However, when I look at the actual numerical responses that FS makes to control inputs I cannot fault them.

The only thing I think makes the difference is that when in the aircraft your body feels the results of the inputs you make, also there is a different resistance to your hand inputs. As such, this makes the aircraft easier to fly than the FS, even thouh FS may be technically correct.

[Byrna]

Hello Bomber Harris,

The feedback you mention in a real airplane and the inertia/bumps/feelings you get is something I may never experience unless I take flying lesssons and I'm sure it helps enourmously in real-world flying.
By the way, I have recently found out that X-PLANE is considered by many real-life pilots to be superior in its flight-dynamics than Flight Simulator. So, while I see what you mean about MS's numbers in their FDE's for their aircraft, X-Plane has a totally different approach whereby they take the shape of the aircraft into account and then design how it would fly in different weather patterns etc... rather than just plugging in numbers like FS does.

Have you tried X-Plane?

John

[reverserunlocked]

Remember Byrna that no matter how hard they try (and the PMDG 737 NG is quite amazing) it's still not like sitting in the flight deck of a 737. It doesn't smell like one, it doesn't vibrate like one, the view is very different. In the real 737 you sit 'in' it, and your arms and legs connect to become part of the machine. With FS you're still sitting in front of a PC.

In many ways, these lack of visual and psycho-metric cues that real world pilots have mean that flying accurately in FS is harder than it is in the real world, plus most FS aircraft are over sensitive in pitch. A real 737 is pretty stable. Once it's trimmed it'll stay where you put it.

Imagine a PC simulation of a Ford Focus. You're driving your simulated car down the motorway at 75mph. It might feel real. Then get in a real Ford Focus and drive down the motorway at 75mph. It's a totally different ball game!

[Billings]

Hi Byrna,

I fly MS FS all the time and I have the exact same problem. It seems to be just an inherant problem with FS, even with pay ware add ons.

The problem, as some have said earlier, is not the sensitivity, but the resistance feedback coming from the joystick. Not sure about other makes, but the MS Force feedback joysticks(which I thought would be the most compatible in relation to this) definitly doesn't do it correctly.

The best way of dealing with this is to go to your joystick sensitivity settings on FS and turn all three down. Don't be surprised if you have to turn them down a lot to get the desired result. I find that you need to turn down aileron sensitivity a little more than the elevator. You shouldn't have to turn the rudder down too much.

Also, turn up the null zone value. This will allow you a certain amount of lee way if you accidentely move the joystick slightly and help reduced the "pilot induced ossilations" that you speak of. God knows I've had enough of them :O

There is also a shareware program called FSUIPC. This program allows a lot of integration of 3rd party programs. It can also calibrate your joystick for a specific FS setting. Very handy. FSUIPC also has weather settings that allow you to smooth out the transitions in weather changes. This won't help you trying to land in a storm though. As I've said before FS can't model up or down drafts in the air. The way it deals with this is by reducing the wind speed to create a loss of lift or vise versa for an updraft. Unfortunatly, if you're trying to landing in a strong crosswind, this will lead to a severe yawing effect and nearly always requires aileron intervention to get back on track, even though you're not really supposed to do that.

As regards X-Plane, I've never used it, but any simmers that I know of that have used it say it is a giant step in terms of flight dynamics and air modeling in comparison to MSFS.

Anyway, hope this helps.

Cheers!

[mstram]

Thanks "mstram" for the very enlightening (and relieving) mention of how badly the winds/weather is programmed in the AI in Microsoft Flight Simulator 2004!

I don't have 2004, but they probably haven't changed much since 2000,2002.

I've flown in some fairly gusty weather, but the MS sim seems to model the wind gusts as the wind completely stopping then instantly starting, which I've never seen in real life flying. There are wind gradient's and wind shears in real world flying, or at least so I've read about <g>, but those are uncommon, and usually associated with thunderstorms, microbursts or drastic terrain changes, i.e. in the mountans. In the "flatland" flying I've done, even when the wind is gusting, it doesn't completely stop, then instantly start like in MS. You might try turning on the wind but without any gusts to see if it gives a steadier effect.

Mike

[Byrna]

Thank-you all for your very helpful comments regarding the short-comings of FS2004 and the superiority of X-Plane.

Billings - I actually just installed a registered copy of FSUIPC and use with Active Sky 2004 weather simulation program. The winds are much easier to deal with since installing AS2004. I'll see if I can use FSUIPC's tweak settings or FS2004 sensitivities to adjust my flight yoke.

Reverserunlocked - your feedback was invaluable - I too definitely feel frustrated with the over-sensitivty of FS aircraft and looks like my feeling that controlling a Flight Simulator 2004 aircraft is HARDER than the real thing may be justified.

John