Air Canada and ACE

[hibypassratio]

Air Canada is getting rid of its 747 combi's. What routes did they normally fly?

Allcanada Express is already flying some AC stuff and the word is they are getting one or more DC-10's. Is this for the AC stuff replacing the loss of 747 capacity?

[74tweaker]

There wasn't much in the way of freight being carried by AC. As far as I know they were flying Toronto - Frankfurt.

I don't think the 10's will come for about a year - if at all. I can think of better planes than 10's though. They have been talking about getting them since the 90's.

[rotornut]

And Toronto to Heathrow. They are still flying but are due to go by September, as far as I know.

[hibypassratio]

They are planning to have the first DC-10 operating by October. They should be up to 7 '27's by the end of the year.

[skyhawk1]

They must have been working on this for a looooong time, as it will take forever to get a heavy freighter certified in this country.

Good for them.

[hibypassratio]

Confusing.

AllCanada Express, aka ACE flying freight under contract for Air Canada, soon to become Air Canada Enterprises, aka ACE.

ACE contracting for ACE.:ooh:

[lead zeppelin]

Two ACE's - maybe they should get three King Air's for the full house!

:p

[Safety Guy]

Ah, but the four queens who worked my last flight will beat your full house any day! :O

[hibypassratio]

Even more confusing:

It's official, ACE to fly DC-10's to Europe for Air Canada Cargo. ACE contracting to ACE.:ok:

[lead zeppelin]

I gotta beat four queens, eh? Well, Safety Guy, I'll have a heterosexual prince use the lavoratory - that will be a "Royal Flush"!!

:rolleyes:

[lazionic]

Air Canada to Set-Up Cargo Subsidiary

In a filing Friday with the U.S. Department of Transportation (DOT), Air Canada said it wants to establish a subsidiary for its cargo traffic, initially responsible for Air Canada belly cargo. The move is an indication that the formal steps in the airline's restructuring are underway.

The creation of Air Canada Cargo as a separate entity was part of Air Canada’s court-approved plan to emerge from bankruptcy protection, which has been cleared for Sept. 30. Under the plan Air Canada has created a separate airline, Air Canada Cargo, to market and sell the cargo space on the aircraft of Air Canada and its affiliates. It initially will not operate its own aircraft or hold its own Air Operator Certificate.

The president of Air Canada Cargo will be Claude Morin, currently vice president of cargo for Air Canada. On the company's board will be Morin, along with Air Canada President and CEO Robert Milton, Paul Létourneau, Air Canada's vice president and corporate secretary. The company will be set-up as a Québec corporation during the first weeks of September.

http://www.commercialaviationtoday.com/

[fesmokie]

So...just curious who is going to crew these DC-10's ?

[hibypassratio]

That would be AllCanada Express (ACE). Contracted to Air Canada Enterprises (ACE). Confusing, eh?

From yyz news, http://www.yyznews.com/Aug.html

b)...Air Canada Cargo has entered into an agreement with All Canada Express to utilize at least two DC-10s beginning this fall on routes to Europe. These will effectively replace the cargo capacity lost with the withdrawal of the last three Boeing 747-400 combis at the end of October. All Canada Express will operate the flights on a charter basis for Air Canada Cargo, as they currently do with a 727-200 between Toronto and Calgary/Vancouver. More details will be made available when known.

I beleive Air Canada Cargo will sell the space in the bellies of AC airplanes and the space in the AllCanada Express operated 727's and DC10's operated for Air Canada Cargo.

[skyhawk1]

I'm glad to hear some big iron is comming - it should help diversify ACE considerably, but I do have some question as to wether they will be ready in time to start. I would hate to see them get into trouble before they even started.

I know the 747 combies are being returned to the leasers at the end of Sept. I guess ACE needs another month to get ready - yet I (and a few others) haven't heard of any applications made by ACE yet for this service. I also wonder how they plan to have the A/C certified in time? They would have had to start on that a while ago.

Can anyone who works for ACE shed some light on how things are going with this project?

[fesmokie]

Back to my previous question.....Anyone know who will crew these ACE aircraft ? Is this an already established company/airline or ? Thanx

[hibypassratio]

Allcanada Express operates its own aircraft. They already have a contract with Air Canada flying freight out of YYZ to YYC and Vancouver on a B727. They also have other contracts, all flown with their own aircraft and crews.

[WJman]

The DC-10 is already certified in Canada as Canadian airlines flew it. As for crew and maintenance there is a wealth of ex-DC-10 mintenance and crew around. I know many people who have flown the 10 worked on it and endorsed on it. As well MTU in YVR do CF6-50 eng overhaul and maintenance. There is also room for maintenance to be done in YYZ with that new enormous hangar. I hear they are renting the bays out for nothing since AC backed out of the deal. Westjet has snapped up one bay at amazing rates and has options on another. I for one am happy to see things are looking up for work and the airline industry. Let's hope it lasts more than a couple of years. ACE also has some Capt's with heavy experience as well.

[skyhawk1]

Yes - the DC-10 has been certified in Canada - BUT never in a freighter configuration! No heavy jet has ever been certified in this country as a pure freighter.

That is what will take time - TC has to certify the aircraft as a freighter. Depending on the conversion and the aircraft type - that could take up to 6 months or more.:(

[WJman]

Actually there were some heavy jet's approved in all cargo config. ICC Air Cargo operated 5 Airbus A-300 B4's and air Canada had the DC-8's in all cargo config. There was also another company owned by the owner of ICC who operated an all cargo DC-8 out of YMX. As well ICC had planned to operated a DC-10 freighter and had it on their O.C as well as their AMO, so thinks should go quickly for ACE. I hear they are starting this month.

[skyhawk1]

WJman,
Your right about the A300 - I had forgot about them. But I was talking about "Heavies". Is the A300 considered a heavy? If so - my fault.

The DC-10 has no Frieghter designations on the type certificate which means it was never certified here. http://www.tc.gc.ca/aviation/stc/intro_e.html

Regardless of what is or isn't certified, I really do hope they can get the 10's up and running quickly. It will help aviation a lot and open a lot more doors for them. I was just slightly concerened that if it turned out they needed 4 or 5 months to get the plane certified then they would be late on their contract, thats all.

Good luck to all involved - no matter the hurdles.:ok:

[WJman]

Yes the 300's depending always on the load were considered heavies. Anything over 250 grand is considered a heavy. So the 8's could be classified as heavies as well. I'm with you, good luck to all, I hope to see those birds around soon.

[hibypassratio]

If a DC10 freighter conversion was already approved by the FAA, who also approved the original DC10's before Transport did, would that not make it more of a paper work exercise than anything else?

Then again, we know how fast paper moves at Transport.

If there were extra safety features TC wanted installed that the FAA didn't (extra smoke detectors, etc.), could TC give an exemption for a period of time with the idea that they would shortly be brought up to a TC's desired standard?

[Quebecer]

I fly for Jetsgo and know of 4 experienced Captains (top 20 in the seniority list) leaving for ACE to fly the 10 ( most of them flew the 310 in the Royal days and another one flew the 747 at one point). They're already on their leave of absence (LOA), so I think it's pretty sure they'll fly the DC10s cause they wouldn't leave for no reason. Being training Captains, they make some reasonnable dough here, even for a low cost.

[Left Coaster]

Ah yes the old Douglas Diner..."gear up...when do we eat?" Are the jetsgo leavers direct entry capt's or fo's? I can't see ACE not having some sort of seniority list. It was a fun ship to fly. IS ACE using FE's? Lots of questions...I'll shut up and listen now THX
LC

[B727jetpilot]

Hello all

Ace will be contract by Air Canada to do Cargo?
with some Boeing 727, maybe my lucky day..haha anyone got the
contact to send a CV to Ace?..i am curent on B727.

[WJman]

ACE already flies within Canada with a 727 for Air Canada. They are going to fly over seas for them with DC10's.
ACE's head office was in YHM Hamilton, Ontario but I think they are now based out of YYZ.

[b767jetmec]

You`d think that with all the B767-200`s being sent out to pasture, Air Canada could make good use of them as a freighter. UPS really loves them. Maybe it would be too expensive to modify them. Who knows what the exec`s are thinking, I guess that`s why they get the huge bucks!:confused:

[skyhawk1]

I hate to say it - but the rumour is now out that 1) ACE lost the Air Canada cargo run with the 727 in Canada to Cargojet and 2)the DC-10's are now a no-go. An American company (Gemini Air Freight) now has the contract and will use MD-11's. :(

[spm]

AHH Rumors. Isn't aviation great. So where did you hear that gem?
The DC-10 boys are on course now and start-up is set for NOV. Who knows, maybe ACE is leasing from Gemini for OCT since the 747s are due to retire at the end of sept.

[Up_And_Down]

Yes they're well established - they used to operate to UPS domestic network until CargoJect came in and underbid them. Now they're operating the domestic Air Canada daytime freighters, and doing some work for Cubana as well with the 727-200f's.

[The Dez]

Air Canada has finalized the deal with cargojet to fly their west coast day freight starting Sept. 21st. Thats the official word no joke. Hopefully no one gets stung at ACE and thier able to find work the new hires.

[KingAir]

Too bad about the AC domestic run. So what's the news with the DC10s? Is that rumour true as well?

[skyhawk1]

Heard on another forum that 1 week into the groundschool - all classes for the DC-10 were cancelled. Person said he couldn't confirm that info though. Can anyone say yea or nay to this rumor?

Hope everything works out:(

[nite_owl]

I heard the above and that the DC10's are toast. The work the 10's were to do is being contracted to Gemini and their MD-11's. Word is Cargo Jet undercut Ace by 50%, but I can't substantiate this. Bad news all round if you're with Ace!

[WJman]

I can't confirm this rumour either, but I heard that Gemini is to do the run for 6 months until ACE is up and running with their 10's. This wouln't surprisse me. Is there not a law prohibiting the contracting out of aircraft if a company in Canada has the same capability. I thought I remembered Transat using it when 747's registered in the UK were goign to do YMX- Haiti charters, Transat won, but I think the work was given to KFC when they had columbus. Anyone know if I'm somewhere in the ball park. Also ACE would have to be nuts not have an Iron clad contract before putting guys on course and aquiring aircraft.

[IMC99]

You can't compare Cargojet and ACE, they are two different stories.

ACE was a straight wet lease, the same as when they were operating for UPS. The reason why all this has come about is because Cargojet operates a Co-Load network which allows the customer to purchase as much space as they require, and then Cargojet fills the rest of the aircraft up with their own freight.

With the AC contract, it is slightly different where AC has wet leased the aircraft from Cargojet, however, Cargojet has agreed to purchase x amount of space from AC thereby generating more revenue for AC Cargo.

You can't say that Cargojet undercut them - it certainly has passed on a great savings to AC, but it is because of the fact that Cargojet has its own cargo to move during the day, not because they are giving away their services.

[hibypassratio]

WJ, I think you are right. It's going to take time to get Canadian approvals for the airplane and maintenance. Training for the crew is going ahead, although at a slower pace.

Sure Ace can't compete with Cargojet on price if AC is only paying for a portion of the space on the aircraft. 2nd hand info, but I heard that frequently the plane was full on the AC Vancouver run, so I don't know if AC will miss the capacity. Does Cargojet do more than one flight a day out there? Do they do separate flights to Calgary and Vancouver where ACE combined them into one?

[cargodawg]

CJ is operating YHM-YYC-YVR-YHM for AC.

The entire aircraft is under ACMI contract to AC, no space sharing.

CJ does operate other overnight flights ex YVR (2).

[KingAir]

Any news for ACE? I'm quite interested in what's happening with the DC10s.

Thanks.

[cargodawg]

No DC10s for ACE.

Gemini will be operating for AC.

[hibypassratio]

My understanding is that Gemini was sub-chartered by ACE until their own operation was up and running with the DC-10. The first crews are training now and one bird is on the OC.

[cargodawg]

Hmmm, possible, hadn't heard that one...

Thanks

[WJman]

From a very reliable source who meet with one ACE's founders (Mckenzie). All crew are still on the 10 course, Gemini will be doing the contract until ACE has it'a aircraft on line. They have even been to the GTAA's hangar in YYZ to inquire about renting the bay next to Westjet's for the 10's maintenance.
Why ACE chose the DC-10 still boggles my mind, it is the most labour intensive aircraft I know. I think the money they saved on leasing is going to cost them in delays and maintenance. I know guys who say that the #2 eng on the 10 paid their mortage off 10 years early. Either way good luck to ACE, at least the contracts staying Canada.

[wrenchbender]

WJman;

Curious how many DC-10's ACE will operate?

[hibypassratio]

I had heard three.

[WJman]

I was told 2, I think it's in a post in this thread. One based in YYZ and one based in YYC.

[palebird]

Good luck to ACE with the 10. Unfortunately they will probably lose money as the aircraft will be too expensive to operate. Somebody was talking about ICC a little earlier. What are they up to now? That is Mr Pe#gra# who also owned ACS which flew three DC8 cargo aircraft out of YMX for a number of years until they declared bankruptcy and left a lot of people in the lurch. Then he started ICC which I believe did the same thing with A300's.

[WJman]

I did some time at ICC. Lots of good people but to much crappy management. A lot of money was wasted and eventually it lead to problems and then the end of the Emery contract. ICC is still open hoping for something to go their way but it is very bleak. The office is run out of Peagram's house. The only current revenue is a small storage contract for Delta MD-11's at YMX.
Peagram also owned Sunworls in the USA but was forced to close over ownwership percentage issues. Things have not gone ICC's way in a long time, it's too bad I really liked the A-300 and they were the only one's in Canada with that ype of capacity. IICC's name is mud now due to monetary issues so I don't think AC would even have considered them.

[cargodawg]

I believe that Sunworld is currently in operation. Started up mid September-ish (?).

Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe they are operating nightly for Emery (Menlo) from ICT to DAY return.

[WJman]

That may be but not under Peagram. Peagram's Sunworld was operating 2 pax configured 727-200's. They were based out of Cincinati.

[cargodawg]

No, Peagram is involved.

Check your info again.

[WJman]

Checked it out, right you are. I thought it was sold. It is for sale though, and it had been shutdown for 2 months. Good luck to Mr. P.