FIs (hourly vs salaried vs retainers) Help!

[G_STRING]

If I ever get my class 1 medical ....

Always been my ambition to become flying instructor, but realise the problem with pay.

Does anyone know what the ratio of paid "as they go" (by the hour), instructors, as opposed to salaried?

Failing that, are some paid retainers? (say, so much cash per day if they turn up, and there is no work for whatever reason).

Also, what is the pay like if salary, or retainer is paid (as opposed to the £15 or so per hour FIs get)?

Sorry for all the questions, just a bit green! Have been trying to search for these specifics, but can't find anything of substance

[orionsbelt]

Suggest something on the lines of the following.

1/ Only the full time Chaps receive pay over and above basic hourly flying rate. Maybe up to £20 per day max, however thay will be expected to do other duties besides flying, Eg A/C hours totals tracking, chasing engineers etc
At my outfit in SE england only the 2 Very senior blokes 3000hrs + and 6000hrs + get this. One younger bloke might get maybe £10 per day as retainer for his full time 5 day week job.

2/ Ratio of 1 full time to 5 part time Inst.

3/ Flight pay is £10 per hr flown, or £10 for 1 hr ground school.
Forget this rubbish talk of £15+ per hour suggest Ldn clubs only

4/ For 2 days work this weekend due to bad wx I have flown 50 mins which is £8 33p. Its does not cover the cost of my petrol.
I have given about 6 hrs pre flight briefing at no cost to the students. On good weekends I can fly up to 10hrs

5/ Only become a FI if you have a great desire to teach and develope other people. Its a very demanding and challenging
occupation and i completly dislike the idea of Inexperienced people doing it as a hours building exercise.
However if you have the right attitude it can be the most fantastic job going, but dont expect to make money and it will cost you mabey £20000 to £30000 to get a CPL/FI(R ) ratings

[aces low]

Fi rates vary from £15-20 daily retainer and £10 per hour to £15-£20 per hour without retainer. From my experience (over three years and six different schools in North of England/Scotland) FI rates are going down in real terms.

When I started I was paid £14 per hour hobbs. I am now paid £20daily plus£10. I am actually worse off over the course of the year. As an IMC instructor I get £10 per hour (scandalous) at one school and £20 at another!

Payment for groundschool (apart from exam training etc)? Never seen it...but can be negotiated privately with stiudent. Ifeel that the way forward is to decouple flying instructor pay from airborne time. I.e. we get paid from the moment we start briefing until the moment we finish with them. Perhaps at £10 per hour. At least then we will be paid for our input (i.e. engine off teaching) rather than the aeroplane time. This would result in no great cost increase for students over the course of their PPL/IMC - perhaps £200. Yet would make a big difference to FI pay and ensure students get groundschool as part of their PPL.

After all when you go to another professional, they do not just charge for the time they operate their instruments...they charge for consultation too. So should we.

I am sorry to say that after nearly 3 years of full-time FI work I am now going to get a job that pays me an income regardless of my input and quality. Even minimum wage at the local Tescos is more than I earn (after expenses) in a good month...let alone a wet july! After 1200 hours, I do not need the time anymore...just an income.

As for FI? I will still do some but on a leisure basis. This will create opportunities for new FIs to work for peanuts...and hence the cycle continues.

[MLS-12D]

I feel that the way forward is to decouple flying instructor pay from airborne time. I.e. we get paid from the moment we start briefing until the moment we finish with them. Perhaps at £10 per hour. At least then we will be paid for our input (i.e. engine off teaching) rather than the aeroplane time. This would result in no great cost increase for students over the course of their PPL/IMC - perhaps £200. When I was learning to fly airplanes, my first instructor was a part-timer whom I knew previously through a gliding club. He frequently remarked that he would save me money by not charging for ground briefings ... but actually he didn't provide any ground briefings, so there were no savings. Indeed, the overall cost of my 'training' was increased: hopping into an airplane without adequate ground instruction is an inefficient, and thus very expensive, way to learn to fly.

[Send Clowns]

Orionsbelt

How about forgetting your own rubbish talk? I work in Bournemouth, well outside London, for 2 different flying clubs. I get paid £15 per hour at one, £20 per hour at the other. Incidentally I like the people I work with and the people I work for as well, so the working environment is great.

Our engineers track the maintenance schedules, so no hours tracking. We chase engineers only when we have specific requirements (or a question they can answer). I sometimes make the coffee, but that is actually someone else's job. My duties are to brief, fly and keep paperwork up to date, do some groundschool when I have time, but get paid for that.

Not sure who you work for orion, but I'd be looking elsewhere if I were you.

[orionsbelt]

Send Clowns

You are a very lucky and fortunate person. My statement reflects the actual pay and conditions in the East of England. They are actual facts based on experience of 3 Schools in this part of the world.
I agree with you that the pay is Rubbish, however that’s reality in Norfolk, Suffolk and North East Essex!

[Loony_Pilot]

Hi,

Well I know of places that paid £10 per day + £12.50 per hour, one place I worked at paid £25 a day "flight" retainer+£15 per hour (which means if you turn up you get a miniumum of £25 but you wont get more than £25 until you you have flown 1.7 hrs or whatever) .
another was £12 an hr with no retainer, though eventually I got an £80 a week retainer but it included more or less running the place.
One place I know in the South of England pays £25 an hour no retainer.
I'm currently on £15 an hour, no retainer.

I'm strongly in favour of a minimum payment where if you have have a bad week or month your income is topped up to an agreed miniumum level so you at least dont spend a week at work and earn £30 or something.
I dont really see why its not possible to pay FI's a decent hourly rate.. it would mean a small increase in the hourly rate that students pay and would make an enormous difference to an FI's pay packet.....

It does frustrate me somewhat to find a good place to work with an excellent atmosphere etc and then wonder whether u can actually afford to stay for any decent length of time...

I think if flying clubs and schools want to keep decent FI's full time, they will have to pay some form of retainer or minimum payment.... I find the problem with instructing is not so much the low pay but rather the instability... never having a clue what you will take home one week to the next.

With so many people opting for type ratings instead of FI ratings... the pool of instructors may slowly dry up and FI's really have been subsidising PPL training for long enough.. who knows.. maybe FI's will end up earning more than F/O's... (dream on)

[rotavator]

aces_low:

Good for you I say !

It is a shame that far too many people flog this dead horse of a job. Yes, it the "old days" at least it was worth the hardship and
suffering so that you could move on to an airline jobs (more hardship and suffering nowadays !) and at least get an increase in salary.

The fact is that if you need the money, this is NOT the job for you.
Just don't get me started on decent conditions either - only a very few enjoy those.

[Thumpango]

Interesting discussion! I am a recently qualified PPL and really didn't realise what my instructors were getting paid until reading this.

I do know that all my instructors have been good and enthusiastic and full marks to them for dedication in light of the poor financial return.

The question I am pondering now is what is the split out of the £146/hr I pay for instruction in a PA28?

Instructor £15- £20 per hour maybe.
Fuel, well 33 litres at maybe £1 per litre?
Aircraft maintainence, parking and landing fees.
VAT.
School office overheads. Salary for two office staff and CFI

I don't think great profits are being made by anyone running or working for a PPL flying school.

Am I right?

[lady in red]

This whole discussion was one of the reasons that I proposed a different way of qualifying as an instructor (see threads following GAPAN Forum at RAF Cranwell) plus the establishment of an International Flying Instructor Association. I have been instructing for over 12 years and still only get paid £12.50 per hour if I do PPL instructing. I think this is a shameful failure to acknowledge experience and I find it disappointing that the Airlines, who are the net beneficiaries of the whole training system, do little, if nothing to support the training industry. We need something akin to a union to campaign for our rights as instructors and to protect us as there are many instances where insurance does not cover our activities and many people are not aware of this deficiency.

If you agree with my thoughts then send a PM