speedbrakes during descent

[RatRace]

Hi all,

sorry to bother you with this, but at one of the flight sim (!) forums a so-called real ATP B737 pilot (you wouldn't believe how full those forums are with real ATP pilots :rolleyes: ) claims pilots never use speedbrakes/spoilers during descent or to slow down, and if they do, they are simply bad pilots.
Most other simmers say that perhaps pilots do not like to use the speedbrakes, but sometimes they simply have to: ATC, weather, icing, other traffic, etc.
So, do you often have to use the speedbrakes, and if so, does that make you a bad pilot ?
Thank you

RatRace

[Spearing Britney]

Yes you do have to use them sometimes, even if you are a super-pilot. You wouldn't plan to use them if you could avoid it but in the crowed skies there become necessary more and more often.

[catchup]

There may be several reasons for using speedbrakes

- airspace-structure
- ATC
- icing conditions with engines running at higher rpm
- shortcuts
- unforeseen tailwind
- runway change
- poor planning


so, some are avoidable others aren't:O

[Astronomy Dominie]

Yep, they are sometimes a necessity, basically when you end up with fewer track miles than you expected.

However, using them is wasteful of fuel, and not for nothing is the Spreedbrake referred to as the 'Lever of Shame'.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Goodness what guff. I'd estimate speedbrakes get used at least 50% of the time in European airspace.

All this Lever Of Shame stuff - if not taken very tongue in cheek - is dangerous bravado. High energy unstable approaches are rapidly becoming one of the top hazards in commercial aviation. Reluctance to err on the side of caution with brakes and gear in the early stages of the approach has been identified as a classic precursor to a hazardous unstable approach.

The amounts of fuel you are talking about are miniscule. It is my experience that the pilots who bemoan speed brake fuel costs are often the ones keen to 'tweak up the speed a bit' on a sectos. Their mindless preference for .8 instead of .76 costs a lot more fuel than putting the gear down at 20 miles...

Cheers

WWW

[Kelly Hopper]

Sorry guys but...
"SPEEDBRAKES!!!!"............ I thought all brakes were there to reduce speed.

I think they are called air brakes.

[FLR-PSA]

Nope, they're definitely called speedbrakes in my part of the world.

Aren't air brakes installed in Heavy goods vehicles? :confused:

[expedite_climb]

In the congested airspace we fly in, and in that where profiles are less than predicatable ......

Speedbrake = Primary flying control.


It is however, very satisfying to make an idle descent from cruise, and not need the speedbrake.

[Low-Pass]

Nice number of posts Expidite Climb.

I also liked the 146 driver who, when asked by the controller to use the fantastic airbrakes on that machine to expidite a descent replied, "They're for my mistakes, not yours" :p

[john_tullamarine]

.. or, as we fondly referred to them ... PECL .. pilot error correction levers ..

Like anything else .. you plan ... you monitor .. and if it all turns to custard .. you revert to plan B ..

[simfly]

I have travelled a lot as pax, and can't remember the last time sped brakes/air brakes/spoilers were not used in flight.....

[RatRace]

Thanks everyone - much appreciated ( 'lever of shame', PECL - one learns every day :O )
Anyway, I'm certain : nothing but SuperPilots around here :ok:
Cheers

[DBate]

Speedbrakes are a paid part of the aircraft - why not use them if needed?

[MinutemanII]

I don't masquerade as an ATP at Delta Virtual, but I have had to use speed brakes on descent in the B722. Even with a proper descent profile and proper planning, that bird doesn't like to slow down as fast as say a B734 or B738. I rarely, if ever, have to use them on those two.

Even at an idle descent they are sometimes needed to make a speed restriction crossing.

I hope my post is not out of place.

Michael

[7FF]

Your best PAL [Profile Adjustment Lever]

[FakePilot]

Heck, last flight I was on used both speedbrakes and the rubber air brakes. When I asked the pilot, he told me that "ATC had kept us high because of traffic"

I was so pleased with myself because I had correctly assessed the stituation. Hey, that's a big thing for a FakePilot. :O

[IBTheseus]

There are some in my company who do not use speed brakes as they plan their decent to be at 2000ft AAL for about 20 track miles. I never thought about it like that before, but I guess they must be very good pilots!!

Speed brakes are there to be used as required. To dogmatically not use them may then mean you are using flaps as speed brakes which Boeing recommends against. (Don't know about the bus)

Not many descents in the airspace I use seem to go as planned. I do not like using the speedbrake, but use it as required.

[LEM]

Using the speedbrakes is no shame at all in itself, shame is using them excessively, when other subtler means are still available to adjust your profile: increasing speed, or accepting a slightly higher profile till the right moment to extend the rubber brakes earlier than normal.

Rubber brakes are more confortable to the pax than speedbrakes.

Also, in a 737 classic, my personal slowest speed for using the airbrakes is 230kts: at slower speeds you only vibrate the airplane for nothing, basically. Remain clean, and at the right moment drop the gear.

Also, the way you extend or retract them is important: SLOWLY, PLEASE!

[Max Angle]

However, using them is wasteful of fuel, Not quite correct, if you need to use the speedbrakes you have already wasted the fuel by staying too long in the cruise or flying too fast in level segment etc. etc. The act of using the speedbrakes costs nothing.

[enicalyth]

shucks

use 'em all the time, 17000hrs + and still a beginner evidently.

[Astronomy Dominie]

Max Angle,

I was assuming a degree of basic knowledge amongst our readers. Whilst right, I would judge your remark to err on the pedantic side. Also, of course, speed brakes may be used to SAVE fuel, but I'll let everyone work out how...

Pip pip!

[Max Angle]

Astro, your are quite right, a little pedantic really. The thread just reminded me of a skipper I flew with when I first started, I reached for the speedbrakes in the descent to TFS one day coz I was high, he said something like "it costs five quid every time you pull those". I thought at the time that it was too late, I'd already spent the fiver about 30 miles up the road.

[FlapsOne]

A fiver in the descent is cheaper than a Go Around!

[Max Angle]

Well quite, I pulled them anyway and we got back on the profile.

[BigHitDH]

I'd estimate speedbrakes get used at least 50% of the time in European airspace.

Christ! That must make takeoff interesting...