1000ft key point

[dynamite dean]

I am an Instructor.A student said to me the other day who ever worked this keypoint out and does it take into accoutn the varying wind conditions ? And my next question he was at his keypoint didn't put the flap down and missed the field, he said to me why you little ****** you told me at 1000ft agl we would make the field the wind was very strong 30kt - cherokee I fly.

Am I missing the point? Is wind irrelevent or is there some more mathmatical way that this 1000ft keypoint was ascertained? help I am not an airline pilot yet!!! :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

[ 30 October 2001: Message edited by: dynamite dean ]

[wysiwyg]

You'll probably find the answers you want on the instructors forum.

[Oktas8]

No doubt this will be moved to the Instructor forum shortly. In the mean time, perhaps some comments would be helpful.

The forced landing is one of the most detailed and longest briefings, which I won't attempt to reproduce here. Important points however:

Low key is simply "the end of the downwind leg". It may be 1000'agl or any other height, depending on aircraft type. It exists because it is generally easier to land from the end of the downwind leg than from anywhere else - it is the most familiar point from which to commence the approach. Thus, get the student to navigate to low key, and you maximise his/her chances of successfully landing. Not "guarantee", just "maximise"!

Flap selection: flap should not be used to "make it in". If no flap was used, your aircraft should touch down about halfway down the field. Use of flap simply slows the aircraft to minimise landing roll, and moves the aim point to the beginning of the field to maximise landing distance available. This technique avoids students depending on flap as a replacement for good judgement.

Wind: in nil wind (PA28 only), try getting your student to turn base when the aim point is about oen to two chords behind wing trailing edge. In >20kts, turn when aim point first appears behind trailing edge. >30kts? Don't teach this exercise - it requires too much judgement for the average pre-PPL student!

Whatever the wind, turn at the appropriate time in a wide racetrack pattern - don't turn straight towards the field unless the aim point is moving up in the windscreen (normal aim point adjustment taught from first circuit lesson).

Angle of bank for this racetrack turn is typically 5° to 15°. More than this will commonly result in a too-high overshoot. If the student initially turns too steeply, and is getting too close, stop the turn (or diverge from field) to lose height without getting any closer to the field. If the student is getting low, s/he can always turn directly towards the threshold.

Extend 1st notch of flap when you are certain of landing in the field. Adjust attitude downwards to maintain airspeed, and wait for glide to re-stabilise with new aim point closer to beginning of field. Extend 2nd notch of flap when certain of landing in the field. Adjust attitude downwards to maintain airspeed, and wait for glide to re-stabilise with new aim point closer to beginning of field. Extend 3rd notch of flap... you get the picture.

I hope this helps. Two very good books are the Trevor Thom series (Aust & NZ, maybe SA as well) and RD Campbell Flying Training for the Private Pilot Licence (UK).

Closing note: if any student calls you a "stupid little *****" or similar words, either take him to the CFI for an Attitude Readjustment Program, or tell him to find a new instructor! Do not put up with this kind of :mad: or you'll just end up :( !

Cheers,
O8 :D

[Dave Incognito]

One of the best ways to make sure you get into your field is to establish a defined set of measurements. Here is where high and low key points can really help you to adjust your plan.

In a PA28, the correct spacing occurs when the touchdown point is approx. in line with the 2nd rivet line in from the wing tip (most likely the same method you may be using in the circuit). If you arrive at the high key point and the touchdown point is too close or too far away (identified by looking at the relationship between the rivet line and the touchdown point), a simple correction of either widening the turn to the low key point, or tracking direct to the low key point can be made. Combinations of height and spacing need to be considered.

You can use the same process during the turn from downwind onto finals. By making small heading changes (10-20 deg) then flying wings level and allowing the leading edge of the wing ‘intercept’ the touchdown point, you can make an assessment on your spacing. Basically, make the heading change, fly wings level, then make an assessment, correction (i.e. delay the next turn, or turn towards the field) then make an evaluation. It is a very similar process to flying a DME arc. The whole way throughout the plan you have a way of identifying what corrective action (if any) is required.

Like Oktas8 said, make certain that flap is not selected until you can bet your life that you will still be able to make the field. A habit that people can fall into is selecting 2 stages of flap in one go. If they have only flown circuits previously, then the action of automatically taking 2 stages (eg. turning base) can be instinctive.

It is a bit hard to explain in text, but I hope this helps nonetheless

[Achilles]

High or low key points are points of reference used to 'assess' the approach. Flexibility is required during a FLWOP in order to ascertain how the approach is going in reality, and then to take any corrective action as necessary, including possibly making use of any 'alternative' landing area (if available), which should be part of the plan in the event of a FLWOP. Wind awareness is a very important factor, and should definitely be taken into account, especially when turning base or final. Procedures taught for action in the event of a FLWOP should be used as a guide, but FLEXIBILITY in the face of changing circumstance is the key to a successful landing.

[Checkboard]

Hi dynamite dean, and welcome to the TechLog Forum!

As mentioned above, this topic will receive a better response in the instructor forum, so I am moving it there.

Not "being an airline pilot yet" simply means that you probably know more about instructing and forced landings than those flying the heavy metal, and those in the instructor forum will be able to help :D

[Transition Layer]

Wow Dave,

With an excellent description like that you could almost be an instructor.

Have a good one ;) ,
TL

[Dave Incognito]

Gee TL,

all those mutual shenanigans may have been beneficial after all.

Cheers ;),
DI

[Blue Hauler]

Reading the above I see some instructors drawing a distinct parallel between the normal circuit and the FLWOP but I don’t think this should be the case. For a start the standard circuit, glide or powered and whether oval or square, tends toward a shorter base and longer final than is desirable for a FLWOP.

Conversely by shortening the final approach we have less headwind duration on the flight path to reduce the maximum gliding range. By flying a slightly longer, square base leg we have a better opportunity to enhance our options by turning in or flying through final to achieve the aiming point.

If one has the luxury of flying a circuit then the aiming point (one third into the field) becomes the reference for all check-points around the circuit:
Upwind abeam the aiming point 3,500 AGL
Crosswind abeam the aiming point 2,500 AGL (high key)
Downwind abeam the aiming point 1,500 AGL

For the low key position I teach a point on base, as the wings level and forty-five degrees from the aiming point, and as stated above providing for a short final approach with minimum headwind damage. I refer to this point as the ‘thousand foot area’. At this point I also teach flaps 20 for C152 and flaps 15 deg for PA38. On final select full flaps to bring the aiming point towards the threshold.

If our altitude is such that we don’t have the option of flying a circuit, it is simply a matter of gliding to the nearest achievable 'check point'. This may even be the ‘thousand foot area’ and under some circumstance could be on right base! Be flexible as suggested by Achilles.