PPL(A) Training Aircraft

[Argo]

Dear PPRuNe'ers

I am about to start my PPL(A) training, having taken a few trial flights, and wanted to know from those taking lessons - but instructors also - whether certain aircraft such as the CAP 10B or Robin 2160 are considered suitable for flight training. They are the aircraft I would like to fly post PPL(A) - either one. I ask because the advice I received in NZ ('fly what you want'), runs slightly counter to advice in the UK ('fly the C152/172, etc).

I have taken trial flights in the Robin (in NZ), and have previously flown in RAF Bulldogs (just a few hours a lifetime ago!), and really enjoyed it. I love the excellent visibility, stick control, and excellent handling (from a novice's point of view). I found the Robin really similar to the Bulldogs I have flown in.

My choice is based on my trial flights, but also on advice from a very good mate (who used to instruct), that I should also consider the alternative of training in a CAP10B - although slightly more expensive - which is a superb training ab initio aircraft.

I read quite a few message strings on this site, such as 'Suitable aircraft to learn in', etc, and the view seems to be, "providing its not completely unsuitable, learn in whatever aircraft you want to." Thus, could those out there who have learned in the above aircraft, or have something they think would be useful to add, give me the benefit of their advice.

Look forward to all views. Feel free to PM.

Regards
Argo

PS - I have posted this also on Private Flying. Moderators, please feel free to delete either one. I was not sure whether to post on 'Instructors' or 'Private Flying.'

[Obs cop]

On a seperate twist,

I did most of my initial hours in a Grob 115D which is a fantastic if expensive aircraft (courtesy of Her Majesty). I then finished off a PPL in a Cessna 152 and now use a PA 28 Warrior II.

I would suggest you learn on the aircraft you want to fly, but the only reason I would ever want to fly a C152 is because it is cheap. I found it far more easily disturbed by turbulance, and far less comfortable than either of the other aircraft I have flown. If money is not an issue then avoid the 152. Technically you can gain a PPL on any piston single, as you qualify to fly a class of plane and not just a single type.

If my memory serves me correctly there are one or two Flying Schools who operate Robins so they obviously can be used as a decent trainer, but I would argue that most schools don't use them because it bumps up their hourly costs.

Regards

Obs cop

[Argo]

Many thanks for your comments Obs Cop. Much appreciated. By the by, where did you do your Grob training? UK, Aussie, Canada?

Regards
Argo

[homeguard]

Argo

I should say that you are better to learn on the simplest of aircraft, whatever that choice may be. Ab intio training must provide you with a clear understanding of basic flight principles together with the basic handling skills applicable to all aircraft.

The PPL course is not designed to teach you to fly a particular type. Basic training undertaken correctly on a suitable aeroplane will enable you to convert to almost any other type that you choose, once you have qualified.

The C150/152, Piper Cherokee 140, Tomahawk etc., were all designed to be trainers and all do that job reasonably well, like em or hate em. Many other light aircraft have quite unique handling charactistics and therefore, arguably, are not ideal for the reasons I have explained above.

Once you have completed your training you may well have a much wider view of the types that you would like to fly.

[noisy]

Hi Argo,

I am learning in the C150 and I've found it to be a real fun machine. Visibility, is however, undeniably a bit pants.
The traumahawk is a much better aircraft in this respect, but I am personally not fond of it.
Why not go around a few more flying schools and try out the different machinery? This will also give you a chance to find a school you like. There is a place in essex ( I think) where you can learn on the Cub, but somehow, I don't think this would float your boat.

Why not try out the trusty Chipmunk?

enjoy whatever you choose,

N

:ok:

[Sleeve Wing]

Argo.
Nice to see your intelligent approach to the beginnings of a great fun thing.
You're right that each type has its advantages and disadvantages.
For example :-
the C150/152 is cheap but it has very little room two-up.
the CAP10B is a cracking little aeroplane but is quite sensitive and
usually more expensive.
the Cub (Clacton and White Waltham) is a real fun machine, sorts out
the men from the boys, great short field performance and is usually
reasonably priced.
the AA5 is just boring but middle-of-the-road.
the Warrior is the standard really - reasonably priced and, later,
capable of carrying four. Easy to learn in.

Anyway, there are some ideas to be going on with.
Also see you live in London ; plenty of choice then.

My advice ?
1) Shop around
2) Talk to some of the students
3) Talk to some of the Instructors. See if you "click" with
any of them.
4) Look at the condition of the aircraft.
5) Finally, if money is no problem, go where your instinct
leads. At least you will start with a good feeling inside.

Remember, its got to be fun !
Rgds, Sleeve. ( Freelance instructor/X/MTP.)
:ok:

[Obs cop]

Argo,

I did my Grob Training courtesy of the Royal Navy in the UK.

I would suggest 2 thinks,

Firstly please avoid putting the same post in multiple forums as most prooners browse several forums. It won't increase the number of responses you get and can upset people.

Secondly,

Take a trial flight in the aircraft you are seeking to learn in. The PPL does not contain anything special to one particular aircraft and as long as it is not too complex you can be assured it will be feasable to complete a PPL without too much hassle.

The C152 and similar high wings have an advantage for the Nav stages of the training as the wings don't get in the way of your sight of the ground, but they can make visibility in turns worse. Taildraggers complicate ground handling and takeoff/landing but some will say that makes you a better pilot anyway.

I believe the Cap10 has been used by at least one military force as their ab-initio trainer and should not hold too many vices, but I don't know much about Robins.

It would also be worth asking the respective schools/clubs if you can chat to any students who completed their PPL's on the type you try as their feedback will be invaluable.

Regards

Obs cop

[FNG]

The Cap 10b was (and to a lesser extent, still is) used by France for military pilot selection and initial training. I know that instructors often debate which stalling characteristics are preferable for training aircraft. I am not qualified to enter that debate, but note that the Cap has a distinct stall with a wing drop, easily recoverable with correct action.

[Argo]

Dear PPRuNe'ers

Many thanks to all for responding. I greatly appreciate all your constructive comments.

Obs Cop - As to posting on two forums, I do indeed take your point. My intention was certainly not to cause offence, nor was it an attempt to encourage twice as many results. As a novice on PPRuNe, I was not sure which one was the appropriate forum. It occurred to me that both Private Pilots and Instructors would have useful views. I left a 'PS' at the bottom of my post to the Moderator, suggesting he, she or they delete it if they thought it improper to post on two.

My apologies if any offence caused.

Best wishes to all, and thanks again.

Argo

[Obs cop]

Argo,

No problems, no offence taken. It was just a friendly suggestion since it is one of the pet hates of many who surf these pages. Spending time typing a response only to find it already answered in another forum is a little upsetting for some.

Welcome to pprune:ok:

Obs cop

[B2N2]

Personally I would not only consider aircraft but the school/club also.
I started with my PPL with a local flying club, big mistake.
Majority of the people there should have stuck with golfing, or otherwise being annoying. Flew the "Traumahawk". In my personal experience club instructors turned out to be of the "not quite made it" variety.
Switched to a small school/ banner towing operation and had a fantastic time getting my PPL on one of their Piper Cubs. All instructors active airline or active airforce.
Check out the facilities and the people.
Training airplanes,
As long as they are reasonably priced the're all pretty much the same, if you have a chance of foing it on a tail wheel go for it.
It might be a little bit harder in the beginning but it will make you a better pilot because of your better coordination skills.