7e7 side stick? [Archive]

safetypee

15th May 2004, 15:38

Boeing investigated mechanically coupled side sticks in the 757 development simulator several years ago. The 777 went with a conventional stick, in part so as not to follow Airbus, to keep all Boeing flights deck standard, and that improved technology was not then available. However, modern side sticks can be cross coupled and dynamically back-driven giving the crew all of the characteristics of force feel and control feedback. There are many arguments as to which type of control input to use, probably the new side sticks being just ahead, but my money would be on the 7e7 having a centre stick and a 777 look-alike flight deck.

Pilots and designers rarely have as much sway in these decisions as do the marketing teams i.e. keep the same flight deck, fleet commonality, and reduced training costs. It is unfortunate that these types of decision may hold back the industry, some preventing safety improvements … why doesn’t the industry update the FMS keyboard etc, it may be a poor design but it’s the standard.

NWSRG

15th May 2004, 23:11

Presumably, unless a side-stick is back-driven, auto-trim would be a pre-requisite? Without the back-driven information, the pilot would have no physical reference for trimming the aircraft?

Is the 777 fitted with auto-trim (like the Airbii)?

A side-stick that had 'force feedback' would be nice. If you can get one for a PC, Boeing shouldn't have any problems!!

ICT_SLB

16th May 2004, 03:07

Force feedback sidesticks have been available for several years now - from both Lear-Siegler (as was) or Sterling as examples. Both models have been tested & flown successfully in the Bombardier ACT (Active Control Technology) Challenger.

Milt

16th May 2004, 03:19

FBW

All flight controls, whether they be manual or powered or FBW MUST have feel. Early FBW side stick in F16 has a feel of 3 pnds per G up to 27 pnds for 9G

3 pnds per G is the minimum for fighter/small aircraft. Normal minimum for lighties is 5 pnds per G. For a yoke in a heavy the minimum is around 11 pnds per G. I think the Boeing will be heavier than this. Otherwise the ham fisted ones amongst us will be breaking wings off.

The Boeing system is going one better to provide some Q feel as well. That is a feel for indicated air speed = half roe v squared.

Pilots will have to do some realigning of their subconscious clues from stick movement as some designers want to have sticks which don't move. Just force input. We should all continue to require some amount of movement to preserve some of those clues..

Ignition Override

16th May 2004, 04:01

A-Floor: Even the Fokker planes never had a sidestick. Maybe Boeing's 777 engineer-designers were not too impressed with the problems using an A-320 "control"-stick in a strong crosswind? Some of our A-320 pilots seem unsatisfied with the so-called "control" in such landing conditions, but maybe I would like it one day.:hmm: The planes flown by many of us (by choice) require a good bit more airmanship-there is no mode mgmt., which we had on the 757. :uhoh:

Lekker slapen, tot ziens mijnheerrrrrr.

A-FLOOR

16th May 2004, 11:03

As a matter of fact, I worked for a company at Schiphol that used to be a part of the great Fokker company, and was salvaged after Fokker Aircraft B.V. went belly-up. I learned that there was at some point talk of outfitting the F70 and F100 with force-loaded sidesticks. :D

Ofcourse this was never implemented because the implementation of airworthy force-loading systems is very expensive, and Fokker, like Boeing, was always a company that paid a lot attention to the way their planes handle and therefor pure airmanship, and I believe the people who are lucky enough to fly Fokkers today can certainly vouch for that! :ok:

Naturally, the pilots themselves and most old-school manufacturers speak from an airmanship point of view and mostly prefer the yoke, and the airlines speak from a beancounter POV and prefer the sidestick so they can save a lot of weight, and you (the airman) can have your super-duper laptop and paperwork on a tray to perform your tasks in a comfortable way and make the airplane run with utmost efficiency in normal conditions. The success of the Airbus FBW aircraft is ofcourse thanks to the latter having the upper hand these days. :E

Furthermore, I learned that the F70NG and F100NG, which will hopefully be announced at Farnborough this summer, will feature some kind of flight-envelope protection system like Airbus. Whether or not this will include full FBW and even sidesticks I don't know, but probably not, for the simple reason the design, construction and testing of such a system will absorb copious amounts of money and the system in use today works fine. So why change it eh? ;)

trainer too 2

16th May 2004, 11:43

But ONLY as long as it's mechanically connected to the other one.

Yep that makes sense... we mechanically link them and use fly by wire in the rest of the ship.... :hmm:

Let's face it Boeing only difficulty to decide on side stick is a simple one: MARKETING For years they have slagging of Airbus so much on the side stick that some people even believe that it is not the best option... The only people in a position to judge are the ones that have flown both.. In LH the majority off A340 crews when interviewed on this indicated that the AI system was prefered over the 747-400s that used to fly on..... Makes ya all wonder...

So the answer is simple: yes it 99% sure will have a side stick if marketing can come up with areason why their version of this side stick is some much better! I start laughing already :E

Stefan Stefanovic

16th May 2004, 15:30

If Boeng does indeed introduce a sidestick in its "7e7 dreamliner" will it be a ecomical decision for them as airlines that already operate boeing aircraft want training and maintenance compatability with other boing aircraft and by introducing the side stick maintenance and pilot training would have have to change.

Ignition Override

16th May 2004, 20:23

Trainer Too 2: Possibly LH crews prefer to eat Spaetzle (Butter und Salz drauf) mit Schnitzel on an Airbus 'tray', instead of on a metal logbook balanced upon their knees?

Goede Middag A-Floor: interesting points, especially about the cost of developing fly-by-wire.

I believe that the new Embraer jet also has it.

But is it worth the extra development costs, or does Boeing need to 'ape' the trend which was developed by Airbus? I can not find a funny face which looks like a chimpanzee.....

Does fly-by-wire affect the insurance costs of such planes? If not, then that might also say something about conventional controls. Most transport jets still need hydraulic boost-maybe a manual reversion back-up (cables to large control tabs?) might encourage pilots who are requested/blackmailed into flying civilian freight into Iraq (i.e. DHL...).:uhoh:

trainer too 2

17th May 2004, 09:01

IO No just to keep the mug of beer from their leder hosen.... ;)

A-FLOOR

17th May 2004, 09:14

As I'm not learning how to count beans I don't know about the insurance costs of FBW planes as opposed to planes with "conventional" controls, but ofcourse since Airbus has been using FBW since 1985 ( I think) and Boeing has already developed it for the 777, the development costs are much much higher if you have to start from scratch like Fokker might as well do and Embraer has done recently. :O

The Embraer 170 and 190 are the first Brazilian planes to have FBW, yet they, like the 777 use a yoke. Ofcourse one following the Embraer tradition of having this Concorde/Trident/Tu-204 bicycle-type yoke. I have yet to fly a plane/simulator with this kind of yoke, but like more things British, it somehow makes sense although being a bit strange. :ok:

Concerning mechanical backup: Airbus uses a system that allows the rudder and trim wheels to be used for directional control if all computers fail for whatever reason, even in the event of a complete electrical power failure. Provided the plane is still hydraulically powered of course by the demand pumps on the engines or even just the RAT on the green system. :uhoh:

JJ/TT2: mechanical linkages between sticks/yokes make no sense whatsoever in a FBW aircraft. In buses, they put a sidestick priority button on the glareshield the PF must push to "get" manual control of the plane. :E

Max Angle

17th May 2004, 11:04

Concerning mechanical backup: Airbus uses a system that allows the rudder and trim wheels to be used for directional control if all computers fail for whatever reason, Gone on the A340-5/600 and the A380 I believe.

A-FLOOR

17th May 2004, 13:00

I found out first-hand that the A340-500 and -600 still have the trim backup, and even despite their length, why wouldn't they? :ooh:

Remember that you still have hydraulics in the situation I described. Only if those would also fail the plane would be (almost) uncontrollable, just like any other Boeing, Fokker or McDoDo that has a powered control system relying solely on hydraulic pressure.

How they solved it on the A380-800, I don't know. But if it can be done on the A346 the A388 probably has it too, as the big bus is in fact shorter, reducing the cable length required. How else do you suggest Airbus will solve the problem of having no pitch control when none of the buses ( :O ) are powered? :hmm:

Wee Weasley Welshman

17th May 2004, 13:20

I think the DHL Baghdad A310 - missile - event clearly demonstrated the products controlability in extremis.

I am amazed that this accident doesn't receive more coverage on PPRuNe - its a bigger story than Sioux City yet the Skipper will never be a name like Al Haynes. Maybe it needed 200 people on board.

Cheers

WWW

747FOCAL

17th May 2004, 13:31

It was already decided that the 7E7 will not have a side stick.

A-FLOOR

17th May 2004, 13:36

Says who? Says where?

WWW: A missile strike is not something you take into account when designing your 7E7 or A380. I'm sure the relatives of those lost on Korean 007 and Iran Air 655 will be able to tell you that. :(

I'm sure the outcome of that particular DHL flight would have been a whole lot different had the IR-guided SA7 not hit the tip of the left wing but one of the engines, the tail or the pressure cabin instead. Nontheless, the crew did an excellent job on saving themselves and the plane against all odds, and I hear the A300-600F in question is in fact scheduled to return to active cargo duty as soon as she is sorted. :ok:

On another note, the DHL A300 lost all hydraulics and flight controls during that event and landed by using differential thrust alone. So I guess the stick-or-not-to-stick issue doesn't really apply here, but, you know, like, whatever... :E

FlyUK

17th May 2004, 13:59

I was under the impression that the 777 and the 7e7 were to be on a combined type rating as per the 757 and 767. IF the 7e7 were to have a side stick this surely couldn't happen. Bus as 747Focal says it seems it will have the good old yoke.

Expedite :ok:

Wee Weasley Welshman

17th May 2004, 16:19

The Airbus was FBW, with yoke, with no hydraulics. Ignore the missile cause but add in a raging fire. Consider low ATC assistance over enemy territory and the flightdeck confusion as to what could have caused such a set of failures.

They had no flight surfaces. Just differential thrust combined with a wing spar fire/severe damage.

They got it down.

Incredible.

A sidestick or a yoke made cock all difference.

Cheers

WWW

747FOCAL

17th May 2004, 17:15

A-FLOOR,

There will be no sidestick.

expedite-climb,

I believe you are right, though I have not heard that exactly. The reason you will not see a sidestick on a Boeing aircraft is all the Boeing senior engineers think that system is unsafe. That is probably a lot to do with "NIH". :hmm:

John Farley

17th May 2004, 17:47

Nothing much changes

The first pilots given an ASI to help them avoid the stall said they were ceratinly never going to trust a thing like that when they could listen to the wind in the wires

A-FLOOR

17th May 2004, 22:32

You already said that. I asked you where you picked up this piece of information.

But never mind, as I guess because you state you live in Seattle, therefor you must work at Boeing as one of the lead engineers in charge of the 7E7, right? :rolleyes:

edit: a whole minute worth of Googling revealed this:

http://forum.gazeta.pl/forum/72,2.html?f=15318&w=9075055

Boeing has even developed a "pretty cool" sidestick control similar to the
one Airbus uses, a nod to the growing popularity of Airbus jets, but Feren
said the 7E7 will offer only the traditional yoke control.

Lufthansa raised the sidestick issue, noting the increased costs of two
different cockpits, and Buchholz said the airline would prefer not to run a
mixed fleet of Airbus and Boeing aircraft, without elaborating.

Hmm :hmm: :O

Lemurian

18th May 2004, 00:34

WWW,
The A-310 is NOT FBW.

tmrmel

18th May 2004, 02:31

Maybe A-FLOOR is right....Boeing may just have to take their pride and swallow it....

Plus its a great space saver....love the desk up front!:ok:

747FOCAL

18th May 2004, 03:02

tmrmel,

I think you are going to get something to swallow. :E

NigelOnDraft

18th May 2004, 04:38

A-F

In buses, they put a sidestick priority button on the glareshield the PF must push to "get" manual control of the plane Errr... I think not. Try a button on the sidestick maybe?

It's not a button to "get" manual control of the plane really - it's just a pretty bog standard autopilot disconnect button - just like you have on errr, a Boeing, MD and presumably Fokker...

NoD

A-FLOOR

18th May 2004, 06:00

I stand corrected :ok:

tmrmel

18th May 2004, 06:10

great one 747focal....how old are you???
Did i offend you in anyway? :confused:

...I was just sharing my view, no harm in that.

NigelOnDraft

18th May 2004, 06:40

A-F...

I stand corrected In buses, they put a sidestick priority button on the glareshield the PF must push to "get" manual control of the plane The thing on the glareshield looks like a button, but is actually an indicator light. It is not used when you disconnecting the Autopilot, but when pressing the sidestick takeover button to "disable" the other sidestick...

NoD

747FOCAL

18th May 2004, 12:29

tmrmel,

It was a joke. Sorry if it offended you.

tmrmel

18th May 2004, 12:56

No problems 747FOCAL, none taken.
I'm new around here so I just wasn't sure if that was the done thing

anyway.. back to the topic!...

A-FLOOR

18th May 2004, 13:06

The thing on the glareshield looks like a button, but is actually an indicator light. It is not used when you disconnecting the Autopilot, but when pressing the sidestick takeover button to "disable" the other sidestick...

NoDYou sure? :D ;)

As I probably won't be able to stand corrected one more time in a single topic :O

nooluv

18th May 2004, 20:04

I started this thread to see the reaction & views of members by making up the (rumour) that "Boeing would be using side sticks on the 7e7"! Looking at the replies it looks as though Boeing will probably be using the old fashion yoke instead of the modern side stick. quotes............

"The reason you will not see a sidestick on a Boeing aircraft is all the Boeing senior engineers think that system is unsafe. That is probably a lot to do with "NIH".

"The 777 and the 7e7 were to be on a combined type rating as per the 757 and 767. If the 7e7 were to have a side stick this surely couldn't happen".

Isn't this "a big step backwards" in the developement of modern day aircraft?

nooluv...............

Krueger

18th May 2004, 20:33

Actually there is a part of A310 that's FBW, spoilers...
Having flown both Yoke and side-stick, it's my personal preference for the side-stick. It took me like 5 minutes to get acquainted to it.
Unfortunately, now I have to live with:mad: yoke.:yuk:
Hopefully, it won't be for long...
Check Six, Krueger...

Lemurian

19th May 2004, 00:34

Right,Krueger.
Forgot that one.
Cheers

Krueger

19th May 2004, 15:26

Anytime...
Have a nice one:ok:
Check Six Krueger...

cactusbusdrvr

20th May 2004, 21:44

After 9 years of FBW I'm back on the Boeing and while I do miss the tray table I enjoy the way the 757 flys. X-wind landings in the 320 are only a problem at first because of the change to direct law in the flare you get a little more sensitivity. I had to fly an approach in Direct Law in a winter storm with a 15 kt x-wind and it turned out to be a non event. Side sticks are very intuitive but you get more feedback from trimming and flying the aircraft. That being said, a lot of the F/Os I fly with are very happy to turn on the autopilot at 800' and keep it on until short final. Of course they are not as up to speed when ATC dumps them in hot and high or in the sim where they have to fly by hand but that's their own choice. I'd rather fly the plane myself.

JJflyer

21st May 2004, 07:15

I fly because I like flying... If you have no feedback and can't feel what the aircraft is doing, where's the fun.

I hand fly the aircraft as much as I can, traffic and congestion permitting, up to cruise altitudes and back down from TOD.

Wouln't think that it would be as much fun with no feedback from "Sidestick". Call me old fashioned but I think that tactile clues and feedback makes a big difference when flying not only by giving pilot a better idea what the aircraft automatic systems are doing thus increasing awareness and increasing safety.

JJ

Ignition Override

22nd May 2004, 05:23

JJ Flyer-and how about throttles which move? I've once or twice seen throttles very slowly go forward when setting a higher altitude and pushing the VNAV button years ago on the 757-almost no response. You have two good sources of feedback, instead of just staring at the EPRs etc. It was much easier to realize that the autopilot might need to be disconnected; reset both flt. director switches and an autopilot button (one of three) + VNAV and hdg select.:)

Boy_From_Brazil

22nd May 2004, 11:53

jonathang

The C17 pilots love the side stick, also the HUD. What a brilliant aircraft.

BFB

earnest

24th May 2004, 14:12

I fly because I like flying... If you have no feedback and can't feel what the aircraft is doing, where's the fun.
There's a few F16 pilots out there who might disagree with that comment.

Krueger

24th May 2004, 19:33

Exactly my fellow Earnest,
Although not a Viper Driver anymore, but Bus Driver, sorry, AirBus Driver, I can't say I didn't have fun flying that Ferrari. Au contraire... It gave everysingle feeling of what it was doing, even if you pulling 9 G:ok:
So I'm all for FBW, although I went a little time travel on aviation tech since now I'm driving A310.
Oh Well! The end of the month is better now.:E
Check Six Krueger...

John Farley

25th May 2004, 15:15

Wouln't think that it would be as much fun with no feedback from "Sidestick"

You are right. It would not be much fun as it would likely be unflyable by normal standards

Whoever suggested to you that sidesticks provide no force or motion feed back cues needs a clip round the ear

MichaelJP59

3rd Jun 2004, 16:25

Boeing Selects... (http://www.boeing.com/news/releases/2004/q2/nr_040603g.html)

Not sure if this has been posted, but I guess this settles the sidestick question...

- Michael

Flight Detent

4th Jun 2004, 11:52

Good confirmation:

I was speaking with one of the top Exec's of Boeing just yesterday, regarding something else entirely. Managed to ask him the same question, got the same answer as above.

Great to hear, as I said to him. I also mentioned the 'fighter type' control stick of the C-17, and the FBW/sidestick systems, and he just shook his head!

What a relief!!

Cheers

Captain Stable

7th Jun 2004, 14:54

I have deleted a number of posts from this thread.

This thread is not to become yet another Boeing vs. Airbus thread, nor is this forum for petty squabbles about which manufacturer people prefer.

How many times do people have to be warned?

Lemurian

7th Jun 2004, 16:47

So Stable,where do you draw the line?Before or after epithets like "scarebus"." airboos" and the like?
Or is it just after "lumbering business" (a 320 in the trees)?
You might notice that the AvsB wars are seldom started by Airbus drivers.
You might as well delete the whole thread as the war...it's there!
As far as I am concerned and taking into account that I was one of the censored posters,I enjoy a good discussion.
Apparently so do others,considering the rating this thread got.

Captain Stable

7th Jun 2004, 20:52

Lemurian, I have been away flying for the past few days, so I have only recently been able to draw any sort of line.

As far as you are concerned, the rules are quite clear, I hope. I don't care if the thread is popular. I will not permit flame wars on what is intended to be an informative forum.

If you don't like that, please let me know, and I can very quickly arrange that you will not need to be further troubled by the details of keeping to the rules.

The same goes for anyone else.

Like it, or do the other thing. I don't accept excuses, and I don't take prisoners. Abide by the rules, stay out, or be banned.

Your call.