A380 is supposed to fly at Le Bourget next month? [Archive]

Toulouse

11th May 2004, 14:24

OK. You remark about keepint it away from trees his stupid and insensitive.

Your remark about BRE901, glad to see you edited it!

129 orders so far for the largest ever passenger plane, I don't think that's bad at all. And I hope many more orders will come in once the A380 is in the air. Are you envious over there? Just can't handle the idea that a non USA company is going to beat the 747/American pride in size?

500 orders in the pipeline for the 7E7... where did you get this information from? If it's true, well done Boeing!

411A

11th May 2004, 14:28

Must admit I watched with some amuzement a docu on TV about the A380, showing the stand-up bar and dining tables comparable with a cruise ship.
What next...bowling alleys?
More likely, cheek to jowel seating, in order to actually pay for the big iron.
Still, in Asia expect it will be needed...eventually.:ooh:

747FOCAL

11th May 2004, 14:40

Toulouse - Alright, I admit the comment about the trees was a bit insensitive. I was more poking fun that if they are rushing so this can fly in a month they better keep it away from the public in general.

The info regarding the 500 orders is in the papers here and represents the combined orders of several airlines. They are not firm orders as of yet. Here is the quote along with the source. It is not the entire article:

Boeings dreams for 7E7 jetline take off
The Business 05/09/04
author: Tracey Boles

BOEING's new aircraft, the 7E7 Dreamliner, has received a big boost with 25 airlines making price enquiries for a total of 500 aircraft, The Business can reveal. The number of "request for proposals", a key step to firm orders, has staggered executives at the world's largest aerospace company because they have come so soon after launch.

:ok:

Toulouse

11th May 2004, 14:43

411A... I'd say that's just marketing by Airbus. Sjowing potential clients just how large the A380 is. Not going to search the internet, but I'm sure Boeing pulled similar marketing stunts in the past, specially with the 747. Just checked some of their photos of the 7E7... love the windows that aren't in a straight line, they sort of wave up and down along the cabin. Can you imagine trying to look out a window where it's at one if its higher positions, also saw what appears to be a rather "modest" bar/counter with fresh flowers...:cool:

Right Way Up

11th May 2004, 14:44

"BOEING's new aircraft, the 7E7 Dreamliner, has received a big boost with 25 airlines making price enquiries for a total of 500 aircraft. "

Boeing really must be struggling if they are getting excited about price enquiries:O

Toulouse

11th May 2004, 14:47

OK 747FOCAL, glad you see how that comment could be seen as "insensitive"...
Regarding the other news item, nothing on boeing.com about it, but I certainly hope its true and I'm sure these orders will eventually come in.
Sorry for ranting on about this, but I'm just getting fed up with all the knocking Airbus gets on these forums, especially from Americans. You know what I mean, "scarebus" or lets laugh at the silly 380. It's such a waste of time (I'm not accusing you of doing so by the way), but why can't people just grow up and admit that Airbus is a great company, just as is Boeing, thus leading to healthy competition. I'm sure, and know, both companies have their flaws, but they both build excellent aircraft.

:ok:

blueloo

11th May 2004, 14:54

Boeing makes good planes, and so does Airbus - happy?

The difference is that Airbus give their planes away at ludicrous prices healthily supported (in a vastly greater manner than boeing) by government subsidies.
Not very competitive at all.

Toulouse

11th May 2004, 14:58

OK blueloo. And where do you get your prices from? Recently to European loco's made large orders. Easyjet with Airbus (Boeing obviously couldn't make as attractive an offer as you well pointed out) and Ryanair with Boeing, well in this case Airbus obviously couldn't match Boeing's offer. Anyway, let's face it, business is all about offering a good product at a good price, and Boeing and Airbus are both businesses.

About government subsidies, I'm not going to get too deep in to that as I'm not too sure about the whole issue, but let's just say Airbus is a consortium of a number of EU countries... that's the way thinhs work here. And what about Boeing military, is Boeing not getting lots of nice state dollars???

11th May 2004, 15:06

Do not mention the tanker deal, that'll get them all upset!

Edit: Oooops! ;)

Algy

11th May 2004, 16:07

I was at the factory to report on the "opening" and the facts about Le Bourget are these: Le Bourget organisers and Airbus marketeers would dearly love to have the A380 at the show and preferably to have it in the flying display - for obvious reasons. The Airbus people actually producing the aircraft say 'fine...but' all depends on how severe the effect is on the test-schedule, and how smoothly the schedule is going by then.

A personal bet: unless the programme has gone decidedly pear-shaped, it'll be there. Me too!

eal401

11th May 2004, 16:15

Isn't the first flight due at the end of this year?

Regarding the interior fit, I doubt we'll see the shops, gym etc. touted in some corners. However, the airlines have an opportunity here to offer more space in all classes. Not much of a difference to First or Business given current products available, but the addition of an inch or two to the economy seat, in width and pitch, offered at the same price would give the A380 operator a clear advantage. I believe the aircraft's performance would support this?

Xeque

11th May 2004, 16:17

Nice to see the comment about the stand-up bars and dining tables. Wot a joke.

If the airlines could get away with 3-6-3 on both decks they would.

God help us all.

Algy

11th May 2004, 16:21

I was at Toulouse to report on the "opening". The facts are that the Le Bourget organisers and Airbus marketeers would dearly love the A380 to be there, and preferably to be in the flying display - for obvious reasons.
The Airbus people who actually build the beast are saying "fine.....but..." depends how the schedule is going and what the impact on flight-test would be.

A personal bet: unless the programme has gone badly pear-shaped it'll be there. So will I:ok:

packsonflite

11th May 2004, 16:49

Toulouse

I assume that you work for Airbus.

As for people knocking Airbus aircraft, take no notice, Americans are just upset that Boeing is no longer the world leader in civil aircraft production. As far as the the A380 is concerned it's just p***s envy!!!

I fly the A330 at present and believe that it's the best aircraft flying today.

Keep up the good work.

PacksonFlite

PS. Could you give the DGAC a call and get them to approve my application to fly in France over age 60? :)

Noah Zark.

12th May 2004, 00:02

The thought of a stand-up bar and shops is a hoot! Let's have an aeronautical Lounge-Lizard sitting at the Steinway. It would almost be like the luxurious days of the Zeppelins!
No. I think the B.O.S. (bums-on-seats) theory wins through here. Too much to resist.
Also the possibly huge potential for liability claims the first time a bit of CAT is encountered and the piano goes hurtling along the Grand Salon, along with the hot contents of the on-board MacBurgerChickenNchips outlet!

Toulouse

12th May 2004, 07:28

Packsonflite:

I think you just summed it all up... envy. I'm probable more of a fool myself for letting it get me wound up.
To be honest with you, I don't actually work for Airbus, yet I do live just a few kilometres from their main offices here in Toulouse. My wife works for them and I have lots of friends their, so I'll certainly pass on your compliments as an A330 pilot!

:D

Justforkix

12th May 2004, 07:59

Toulouse

Actually the difference in window height would be higly appreiciated for people with my height. When I fly as a passenger, I always wondered why the engeneirs placed the cabin windows at my elbow. Especially the Bombardier and Embraer regional jet windows are ridiculously low placed.

And finally, I am of pretty normal height for a Scandihooligan.

CarltonBrowne the FO

12th May 2004, 20:15

At the risk of getting off-topic... should there be accusations that this time Boeing is receiving unfair government subsidies? :D
Or is it ok because it is the Japanese government that seems to be offering the money?

panda-k-bear

14th May 2004, 14:02

Stand-up bars:

Don't Virgin have a bar in their 747s? And their A340s, for that matter (don't know, never flown with them, just heard it "on the grapevine").

I do know that Singapore have a stand up lounge on their A340-500s, though. And targetted at economy pax as well. So popular, apparently, that business pax are joining their erstwhile colleagues in the back.

Not such a dumb concept after all....

I thought ANA had ordered the 7E7? It's not listed on Boeing orders and deliveries on their website. Anybody know what's going on? Have they ordered it or not? If not, the surely scores are 129 to nil (so far, and probably not for long).

747Focal, how many orders for the 747 did you guys have 6 months before first flight? It's before my time, I'm afraid, so I don't know what one should expect in terms of orders at this stage.

earnest

15th May 2004, 15:49

Must admit I watched with some amuzement a docu on TV about the A380, showing the stand-up bar and dining tables comparable with a cruise ship.

Did you also watch with some amusement all those years ago when Pan-Am constructed the upper deck of their first 747 around a grand piano?

Sadly most passengers just look at the ticket price, not the quality of the commodity they're buying, as AA have found out after a few years of "extra legroom for all".

Lemurian

15th May 2004, 20:30

Stand up bars...
Ah ! the good old days when Gulf Air had one -precious wood and flowers and a dedicated hostie (remember the nicest looking uniform with tight trousers and a fitting tunic?)- on their Tristars.
They did it for years.
I would welcome the same -along with a similar uniform- any time.
And why not on the A-380?

HZ123

16th May 2004, 07:44

411A Me too and there is little doubt that very quickly these facilities will be replaced by more seats. As for the spat between 747 v Airbus I am sure many of you will agree that it is vital for the business to have at least two airline producers whatever the outcome for the time being. Can we assume that in the fullness of time they will amalgamate.

B737NG

17th May 2004, 01:17

Toulouse, it depends.......please remember why Airbus was built!.
If you like it go for it. I have my point of view and I resided long
enough in CCF to have some insight view. For me it is still valid:
If it`s not a Boeing I`am not going. I am a guy of the old days
and the concept of the Boing fly by wire is the one I prefer. You
may be a Atari Kid and grown with a side stick. Mine is in the
middle and remains there. I never enjoyed the rides in the AB sim
because of the diffrent philosophy. Our company has orded A380
as well but I am not interested. I look foreward to the grow of
our B777 fleet. That secures me until I retire.

NG

Right Way Up

17th May 2004, 08:15

Do not want to continue Airbus vs Boeing argument but had to chuckle when I saw your comment "if its not a boeing i'm not going" and then your username "737 NG".

It is probably the worst built aircraft I have had the displeasure to fly, and it really drags down the good name of Boeing.

Toulouse

17th May 2004, 11:26

B737NG... Enjoyed reading you're point of view. Glad to hear you prefer flying Boeing. And why not? If that's what you're used to, stick with it if you want and you can.
An Atari Kid?

Anyway, digressing on the "old" Airbus V. Boeing debate, and for any of you interested in the A380, I just saw an A340 taking off from Toulouse Airport this morning testing the new RR Trent 900 engines for the 380. Impressive seeing such large engines on the 340!

Lemurian

17th May 2004, 13:07

IF ITs'SNOT's BORING I'M NOT GOING !!!!!!:O

alexban

17th May 2004, 13:57

rightwayup: can you please give some arguments about your displeasure regarding the NG type? Professionals one,please
Just curious
Brgds Alex

gibney85

17th May 2004, 18:22

Airbus has a bit to go yet to be compared to Boeing.

I guess the A380 will show the strength of Airbus as a manufacturer.
Boeing have accomplished alot more than Airbus and to think that the 747 was designed in the sixties and made such an impact on the commercial aviation industry and over 40 years later, Airbus are finally talking about an aircraft that can (possibly) rival the 747, Let's not forget, Airbus have hardly changed aviation as much as boeing or mcdonald douglas etc.

I admire Airbus, especially as a european for their innovation. I hope the 7E7 and the A380 are a huge success. They probably will as they will not be competing in the same market anyway.

But when Airbus HAVE accomplished or surpassed what Boeing have achieved, Then all the anti-boeing people can start bragging why there better than Boeing

Lemurian

18th May 2004, 00:28

gibney85,
Let's not forget, Airbus have hardly changed aviation as much as boeing or mcdonald douglas etc.
and
Airbus has a bit to go yet to be compared to Boeing
Back to your favourite aviation history book,please.
1/-First wide body twin engined pax jet :the A-300
2/-First two-man crew concept on a large jet :the FFCC leading to the disappearance of the FE :the A-310 (Boeing reacted with the 767).
3/-First use of CRT's flight instruments:the A-310 again
4/-First use of electrical flight controls ,coupled with a side-stick controller :the A-320,then the 340,the 330 ...(Boeing answered 12 years later with the 777.)
There are probably a few more "firsts".in which you could include the use of advanced materials,cockpit commonality...etc...
As for bragging,you would notice that the pro boeing lobby is quite q lot more vocal than any other group on this forum.Un fortunately,facts and figures seem not to help them these days.
Sleep well

747FOCAL

18th May 2004, 03:05

I think the truth be known..... Airbus is still playing catch up eventually it will happen, but I think the Japenese will beat all of us eventually.
:uhoh:

Toulouse

18th May 2004, 07:34

I think the Japenese will beat your stupid a$$ first.

Come on 747Focal... why do you have to keep on being so insulting, this is the second time alone on this thread!

Anyway, if "facts" count for anything, I believe Airbus have already caught up with Boeing. More new aircraft delivered in 2003. More world airlines appear to be opting for Airbus aircraft at the moment.

From infor on current oders/delivereies of commercial aircraft, Boeing have 1.070 aircraft pending delivery while Airbus has 1.397 aircraft pending delivery. Total number of aircraft orederd is clearly still larger for Boeing yet the number of aircraft is closing in, with a difference of about 600 aircraft as of March 2004.

Toulouse

18th May 2004, 09:13

From infor on current oders/delivereies of commercial aircraft, Boeing have 1.070 aircraft pending delivery while Airbus has 1.397 aircraft pending delivery. Total number of aircraft orederd is clearly still larger for Boeing yet the number of aircraft is closing in, with a difference of about 600 aircraft as of March 2004.

eal401

18th May 2004, 09:17

I have a different viewpoint to the "If it's not Boeing, I'm not going."

Fine, don't go. :O More room for me. :)

Right Way Up

18th May 2004, 10:26

Alexban,
IMHO Boeings in the past have been extremely well built and designed aircraft. The quality of NG manufacture would seem to not be as high. The autopilot is shocking for a new generation aircraft. I am glad that my company has not proceeded with CAT 3B autoland limits. Even though they are new they seem to be all bent in different directions, or maybe they are not rigged correctly. I know airlines wanted it this way, but I cannot believe an aircraft of this age has an overhead panel so dated.
As I said before this is IMHO, I used to think Airbuses when I flew them were flimsy, but the NG has made me eat my words!

gibney85

18th May 2004, 10:29

Come on Lemurian,

Are you for real.

The CRT's may have made the cockpit more appealing to homosexual interior designers but they have hardly revolutionised flight. Whats next for Airbus, Scented Seats or floral colored windows for the captain?The CRT Screens were eventually going to end up in aircraft anyway due to there clarity and there size compared to ordinary screens.but they will never fully take over from the basic traditional instruments

And the sidestick, well thats another story. I dont think that has any real importance to the world of aviation.
Whats wrong with the yoke anyway? Two hands are better than one.

We'll see if the 380(in all its ugliness which has been standard on all airbuses) has such a distinguished and long-lived delightful career as the 747 series which will continue to dominate its so called rival the 340.

dodoflies

18th May 2004, 10:55

Hi everybody, please lets face it, whoever Boeing, Airbus and anymore .....Let the new Airbus fly and we will all know about it`s real capabilities and future....In a way lets not count the chickens before the eggs are hatched.....Big talk is easy.....Silence is golden..........:ok:

Toulouse

18th May 2004, 11:03

Sorry Gibney85 but I tend to disagree entirely with your opinions posted so far. But then, this is a place for giving "personal" opinions. Facts are another thing... I know some people have stated FACTS on this thread, which others have prefered to ignore when they are against their "own personal" opinion. Airbus is ugly... That's YOUR opinion! Not mine. Yet does it matter so much whether their nice or not to look at? A380, I've alreday seen it "en direct" and in MY opinion it's far from ugly.
"Scented seats"... Come on, what's your point?

Massey058

18th May 2004, 11:15

gibney85 you must be joking to make a statement on CRT's that doesn't even make sense, in hindsight you can always say that something is going to end up like that, doesn't particularly detract from Airbus' role. CRT screens will never take over from basic instruments, well now everything in terms of display is LCD and again this statement is nonsensical theres no argument it has taken over from the light aircraft like the Cirrus sr22 to Boeing 777.

The sidestick application in the A320 was the first for a commercial airliner and many pilots that fly it say it seems more natural to fly like this once you've done it a few times. Outside of commercial aviation there are various stick/yoke configurations but at the end of the day Airbus were the first to put it in an airliner. Take that as you will but it is a fact nonetheless.

A340 rival to 747? Not strictly as with the 777 it is used as a replacement for the classic 747 but not even the 346 is intended to be strictly a rival to the 744 but the 773

Lemurian

18th May 2004, 12:12

Gibney,
please change your profile.Truthfulness could come from experience.
I thought-silly me-you were one of these young aviation enthusiasts who deserve to receive an info from us old aviators.
I won't waste my time with childish uninformed babble any more.
When you've learned that one rarely use both hands to fly an airplane,when Porsche designed the 320 cockpit (and may be some of their engineers are gay,why not?) that the side stick is used in quite a few combat aircraft (for homosexual fighter jocks,I suppose),then you'll have some credibility.
There are a few sites on the web for 12 year old willy-wavers.You will be in good company.

gibney85

18th May 2004, 13:54

Toulouse, I respect your comments and indeed your opinions.
I have seen many pictures of the A380 and agree it does look the part. I understand you are a fan of airbus. I am too especially as i am a european. I just find that they are not up to boeing's level of both success and innovation(Yet ;) , no doubt the A380 will change that)
Disregard regard my sarcasim regarding Airbus's ugliness. I was refering to my own opinion of airbus's older machines. I did not mean harm by it.

POSTED BY DODOFLIES

Hi everybody, please lets face it, whoever Boeing, Airbus and anymore .....Let the new Airbus fly and we will all know about it`s real capabilities and future....In a way lets not count the chickens before the eggs are hatched.....Big talk is easy.....Silence is golden..........

Dodoflies is right, we'll wait, see and judge :ok:

Lemurian, I could understand your negativity towards my post, but i have to say that i dislike your comments.

POSTED BY LEMURIAN

I thought-silly me-you were one of these young aviation enthusiasts who deserve to receive an info from us old aviators.

Contrary to what you might think, i never asked for info from you. The last time i looked this was a forum where discussion and opinions are expressed and i wish you would accept that.

POSTED BY LEMURIAN

I won't waste my time with childish uninformed babble any more.
When you've learned that one rarely use both hands to fly an airplane,when Porsche designed the 320 cockpit (and may be some of their engineers are gay,why not?) that the side stick is used in quite a few combat aircraft (for homosexual fighter jocks,I suppose),then you'll have some credibility

For your information, i am not as uninformed as you may think. I am well aware of the one handed piloting of the yoke and the sidestick used in combat aircraft. I feel you took the homosexual comments too far, with overboard sarcasm which i do not find the least bit humourus.

POSTED BY LEMURIAN

There are a few sites on the web for 12 year old willy-wavers.You will be in good company.

Lemurian, I am far from 12 Years old and what you describe. You request me to change my profile and question my truthfulness, Why?

Toulouse

18th May 2004, 15:29

Gibney85, thanks for your response. Much appreciated. I would however be interested in knowing where you've got the idea that Airbus is not up to Boeing's level of success and innovation. My opinion is different to yours on this point, and I'm not saying one manufactures is better than the other, and as you will see in other posts I have made I fully support competition and thus hope for success for both Boeing and Airbus. But still, Airbus is a much newer company than Boeing, thus it's commercial success must be calculated taking into account that its aircraft have been on the market for less time than Boeing, then compare number of aircraft ordered and in service around the worl and you'll see Airbus is really quite successful. Innovation, Lemurian has already posted some of the European manufactures innovations, so there is no need to say more. And also, perhaps we should remember the history behind Airbus, before the company "Airbus" or EADS even existed. There is a great aeronautical history behind the company... Concorde, the beautiful "Caravelle"...

On your point of ugliness, I find Airbus aircraft to be quite attractive, that just my opinion. Personnally, the most beautiful commercial aircraft in my opinion are the A340, Boeing 727, Concorde and the Caravelle...
:ok: