Spinning without chutes?

[Northern Lights]

I'd like to ask about something in the May 2004 edition of "Flying" if anyone has read it.

In an article about flying the Christensen Eagle, after describing flying various aerobatics, it then goes on to say on page p29, "Without our chutes, we couldn't spin the Eagle".

Is there a rule in the UK that you must wear a chute to go spinning, or was it just the pilot being cautious?

If it was just the pilot being cautious, is spinning really so much more dangerous than aeros that you ought to wear a chute, or if it was a rule, why is it not a rule for aeros as well?

Not critical or anything, just curious to learn from someone who has done it.

Sorry if this is not the right forum.

Northern Lights

[Dan Winterland]

No, don't think there's a rule. I had to spin a C152 so called 'aerobat' as part of my instructor course. there was barely room for the two of us let alone parachutes. First time I've spun without the recourse to an 'Irvin letdown'. can't say I'm a fan of it, so it sounds like common sense to me.

[A Very Civil Pilot]

Obviosly a pararachute (or ballistic recovery system) will help save your life when it all goes pear-shaped. I don't remember from which source I heard the information, but there are a significant number of fatalities/casualties to people not deploying the system until too late.

I think the psychology is that up to the moment until it's too late to jump, the pilot's overriding concern is 'I'm going to loose £XX,000 of aircraft/ get a severe bollocking from the CFI etc', rather then abandoning at a safe height.

[BigHairyBum]

Preference of an individual vs the spin characteristics of the a/c.

I can imagine there being lots of time on the way down to say "f*** I wish I had a chute", ten times or more perhaps.

Just imagine that.

A chute will cost you less than £1000 for a good new one (but don`t use it at less than 300`-500` though).

Most of the time you are thought to stand a better chance staying with a/c and trying to recover.

[eyeinthesky]

I seem to remember when I did some flying in the US years back that the FARs required the wearing of a chute beyond 90 degrees of bank and/or 40 degrees of pitch or something. Can anyone else confirm or shoot that down?

[paulo]

The FAR definition is 30/60 - exceeding either 30 degrees pitch or 60 degrees bank.

The "chutes for aeros" reg is widely understood to apply when carrying non-crew - in that case all occupants must wear a chute. Otherwise there is no requirement.

[FlyingForFun]

I thought the FAR requirement was to wear a chute whenever there was more than minimum crew on board? (Which is subtley different to Paulo's reference to carrying non-crew, in that a student pilot is more than minimum crew, but is not non-crew.) Sorry, no reference to back this up - would be nice if someone could actually quote the relevant FAR, just purely as a point of interest.

I wonder how useful a chute would be in, for example, the left hand seat of a PA28-140 though? Curious to hear from anyone with any experience of this.....

FFF
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[FNG]

I have taken to wearing my parachute even when not aerobatting, as I don't fancy remaining strapped to the wreckage if still alive and conscious after a midair (I know that this is most likely overhead an airfield, with little height to spare, but even so). Both of the aircraft which I fly regularly have canopies that jettison. I wouldn't fancy trying to "eject", as the BBC would have it, from the left hand seat of a PA 28.

[paulo]

FFF - The interpretations I've read say that the student is considered non crew, so yes you are absolutely right - minimum crew is the thing.

There are exceptions though. Here's a page quoting the FAR (http://www.smartregs.com/data/sf91307.htm)

[Northern Lights]

Thanks for the replies

[MobiusTrip]

I'd carry a 'cute in an airliner if they let me. Spinning without a 'chute (which I did do many years ago) makes my toes curl up now - have you heard the graunching noises some aircraft make when you spin them? It will prolly recover, but what if a bit falls off - Ew!!!

MT

[hugh flung_dung]

I wouldn't dream of deliberately spinning without a 'chute in an aircraft from which it's possible to get out in a hurry; but in a C152, PA38, etc it seems perfectly acceptable not to wear one.

I often don't bother for routine aeros but, as I get older, I keep thinking that it would not be good to spend ones last few seconds thinking about the 'chute in the cupboard... makes mental note to always wear 'chute.

HFD

[Speedbird48]

In the US the FAR that governs the subject is 91.307 where under (c) you will find the pitch and bank limits (30deg & 60deg) and (d), (1), & (2) covers the parachute part.

[pittss2b]

Being in Canada spinning is a standard exercise for the PPL, and CPL. We do them several times a day.

We don't use chutes in the 152s, 172s, pa-28, or Citabrias during spins or basic acro in the Citabs.

For the Pitts S2B it depends on what type of training we are doing, but for most flights we do wear the chutes as the airplane is built for them (no seat cushions). There is no law to wear chutes is up to the pilot in Canada.

Adam

[whatunion]

just before any of you decide to jump out with your chutes i will tell you about the guy in the cessna 172 out of dundee who took 3 parachutists to a display. the last one out got tangled in the tailplane, he cut his chute and came down on the reserve. the poor old c172 pilot came down with the c172 out of control and the parachute, he had a headache but he survived.

if you cant get out of a spin in a tandem a/c always get the rear seat pax to jump, the change in c of g usually recovers the a/c!