Volar a320 go around at eick

[fintan]

Hi All ,


Volar A320 charter from fuertaventura to Shannon via Cork 18/04/2004, apparently about 1-2 meters off the ground a gust of wind blew the a/c off over the edge of the runway and then the pilots had to preform a go around. This was from a friend of mine on board at the time.

Just wondering if any one had more info. regarding would the airbus be able to preform a go around at such low altitude, would it not be commited to landing or so.

cheers

[Flopster]

Well, since the aeroplane is not a smouldering wreck at the side of the runway, I'd venture the proposition that an A320 is indeed capable of a go-around. In avaition we commonly refer to such occurances as non-events. Just a hint .....

[fintan]

I know that it was just one of those landings and all necessary actions were taken etc and all ended well.

Im sure it to be normal that a manual landing in general good conditions is common to the majority of pilots instead of using the auto only when necessary.

Im not one to know much about the A320 or critise any action taken any professional pilots, cause the closet ill get to flying a real one is on Microsoft flight Simulator on my PC
:D

But is it the same when flying manual or autoland that there is Highlighted "LAND" on the PFD. Dose this not mean that the a/c is taking into account the current spd & alt ,that you would not have sufficient of one or both to preform a go around unless you do a touch and go?

[Notso Fantastic]

Boring! Is this a piece of news or is this a QUESTION? As a total non-event, I assume it is a question. Yes, aeroplanes can perform go-arounds with no problem even on ground contact. But as you have given the identity of the airline, date and therefore crew, you obviously wish more than just an answer. A perfectly normal procedure was carried out to prevent any risk to the aeroplane or passengers. Are you trying to make out you were in a 'death jet' averting doom by a whisker? You could have said (in the QUESTIONS forum) that you were in a low go-around and 'how normal is this?' But instead you exaggerated- I can guarantee that the a/c was NOT 'blown over the edge of the runway.' Had I been the Captain, I would be starting legal proceedings against you.

Fintan, I know you probably mean well, but a background of Microsoft Flight Sim is not enough to draw on to explain such a manouevre! Any jet can go around at any altitude, even after touching down.

[hobie]

an A330 going into Dublin a couple of weeks ago ....... at the very last moment severe weather forced a Go-around ......... the Skipper apologised for the "Suprise" but assured the passengers that if the landing had continued the "Suprise" would have been a much bigger one for all concerned !!!! .......

[NigelOnDraft]

My I echo my sentiments that a GA is a normal process, and would request all "spotters" "PC Fliers" please try and refrain asking for details of every GA that is a normal procedure. You each contribute to making into something it is not, and therefore cause the next post etc... As a guide, if you want to comment on something you think is "of interest" to the aviation community, read the monthly AAIB summaries. If the incident is of a type that does not feature in these, then it is considered a "routine operating occurrance".

would it not be commited to landing or soIn general airline practice, you are not "committed" to land until after Reverse Thrust is selected. The only exceptions will be with a further problem e.g. 2 EO on a 4 jet.

NoD

[fintan]

News or Question? A little of both.

No, not looking for more than just an answer than what i have already asked.

"exaggerated", no, "death jet", no, as i mentioned "APPARENTLY" having received the info from a pal who was a passenger.

Im sure that the normal SOP was carried out etc

CAN ONE NOT ASK ANY QUESTIONS WITHOUT BEING BARKED AT!

[SQUAWKIDENT]

FINTAN

You'd be better off asking these sort of questions at www.avsim.com or www.flightsim.com where the contributors are somewhat more patient.

[davethelimey]

Or indeed asking the question in the shiny new Spotters forum, which was created for precisely this kind of post.

[expedite_climb]

FINTAN,

I think the point the others are getting at is that this is not really rumour (you say it happened), or news (it is a non event), and hence it is a question, so you should have posted in the questions forum.

[Faire d'income]

FYI Fintan the crosswind limits for autoland are a lot lower than for manual landings meaning that all strong crosswind landings must be done manually.

[fintan]

Thanks for all the replies, Sorry for annoying anyone.

[Farrell]

This type of stupidity has to stop.
For God's sake, if you think that a question is ridiculous, or shouldn't be asked - then it's probably best to just not respond to it!

Some of you guys are unbelievable - and what's worse is that the majority of you are in positions of great responsibility - and yet you can lose your cool over a stupid question??

Grow up - please!

[angels]

Fecking hell. Some of you pilot chappies can be an odd bunch.

As SLF I felt Fintan's question was fair enough. If you don't like it, what's the point of logging on and slagging him/her off? I'm a regular on Pprune (largely on JB because I'm not a pilot) and one of the more depressing aspects of R&N is the constant slagging of us mere mortals, and -- worse IMHO -- your colleagues.

apparently about 1-2 meters off the ground a gust of wind blew the a/c off over the edge of the runway

News? No.

Rumour? Possibly not. Fintan had a friend on board.

Worth checking? Why not?

If you don't like the question, don't answer.

FYI - I've been on a few go-arounds -- including a touch-and-go at Changi during a particularly fun bit of weather. Went to the alternate in the end and I ended up getting a ferry back from Batam, much quicker.

Calm down chaps.

Edited to note that the people who slag Fintan off don't appear to have any current types on their profiles. Are they actually pilots? Just a thought....

[Notso Fantastic]

Yes I'm a professional pilot of over 37 years standing thank you! Fintan is obviously young. He should not have identified the flight so precisely. It is a complete non-event, but the pilots should not be so easily fingered for doing the correct safe thing, no doubt perfectly competently. Maybe if you were in the industry, you might understand, but I don't think you should contribute here with nothing to add to this matter, your extensive passenger diversion experience notwithstanding. Back to JB where you belong!

[TopBunk]

Fintan

On the A320, the LAND annunciated on the PFD means that the systems have determined that they are autoland ready. If land is not displayed (usually by 400ft radio alt) then one cannot autoland the aircraft - you can still land the aircraft manually, but obviously require the visual references. Once LAND is annunciated, the only way to cancel that mode is to go-around.

The LAND annunciation does not have any relationship to the ability to perform a go-around. At touchdown LAND will be replaced by ROLLOUT.

[angels]

NotSo - are you shy? Shove your experience on your profile.

The reason I mentioned my GAs was that I was trying to agree that a GA is not a story per se. But a humble pax may not realise that. A simple 'Hey, it's no problem mate. These things happen all the time' would have sufficed, surely?

Ever flown a 744 into Kai Tak? Saw a few of them GA and they were well hairy!

[davethelimey]

My goodness we have all got our panties in a twist this afternoon. Might I suggest that no-one here needs to prove their piloting experience, and should generally only be called upon to do so if offering technical opinions. No-one asks the pax here to scan and email their ticket stubs to prove their experience.

What people don't like is specific "what made flight no. XXX go round last night?" questions. Firstly, the likelihood is that no-one knows why, and secondly, the reason is probably pretty boring. If people have specific questions on flights, there are no fewer than three forums here for pax with questions, and it's quite understandable that people end up frustrated with people mis-posting, particularly if it's the same thing all the time (i.e. go-arounds and say, jump-seat visits). If this were a post about go-round procedure or something a bit less flight-number specific, people might not get so shirty.

[Flopster]

The thing is, this forum is regularly subjected to the exact same type of question as posted by Fintan and the response is also very much the same as what you have been reading here.

As other posters have mentioned it is neither a rumour, nor is it news. There are specific fora for this type of question, and indeed much more suitable websites that does nothing but cater to spotters and wannabes.

FYI, I'm not a pilot but do have roughly 20 years of experience in the industry and enough hours riding jumpseats as a LM or Pax and countless hours exterminating beers with flyboyz to gain just a tad of an impression of what goes on when they shake the stick, so to speak. Doesn't by any stretch of the imagination make me an expert, but just enough to tell you and Fintan that a go-around is, well, a total non-event that occours probably 100s of times every day around the globe. Funnily enough, it's only GA's in the UK and ROI that ever make these pages. I wonder why .....

[SNNEI]

Fintan, some words of support for you.

I did not see anything that was "anti pilot" or indeed questioning of the pilots actions in your post.

It was a simple question asked by a chap seeking to further his aviation knowledge.

To the pilots: why must everything be construed as a viscious attack on your profession??

Most of us non-pilots here look up to and respect your profession. In my case, I always wanted to do what you do every day of your working lives. No-one is out to knock you, least of all on this thread.

Why has this forum decended into a nit picking and inhospitable place to be? a place where you watch every word you say for fear of unwarranted attack? Grow up people!

[Biggles Flies Undone]

How is a professional pilot expected to respond to an emergency?

If I was asked that question (being SLF but fairly industry-savvy) my quick response would be calmly.

So why do some of you fly off the handle just because an obvious novice asks a question like that?

[SNNEI]

Oh and I might add: when you read the subject line of a post, you have a choice whether to open it or not. If you don't like the tone of the subject, why don't you spare yourself the agony and anguish and just dont open it?

[Bre901]

An alternate would be (politely) asking a Mod to move the offending thread out of your sight, if you could not resist reading it.

[Global Pilot]

PPrune is an excellent source of information for seasoned and improving pilots. It has evolved over the years into something more than a rumour mill. It is a common occurrence for posts to be made in the incorrect category.

As a new ppruner the most irritating thing about this site is the constant bitching from others attacking people who, in their opinion, post silly questions/comments. I am in total agreement there are some ridiculous postings and my reaction to them is to go to the top right hand corner of the screen to close the window.

C'mon guys give others a chance. PPrune moderators are there for a reason and it sometimes takes a while for the post to be moved into the appropriate box.

Worth remembering that whether they are FS users, spotters or just plane members of the public, these are the people who buys the air tickets that keep the companies we work for (or hope to work for) going.

hope this is taken in the way it was meant..standingby for the onslaught!

[fintan]

If this topic is in the wrong section, well , the moderators will move it accordingly and will further know where to post for future.

My question was not pointed at nor condeming actions of doing a GA or why it was carried out? It was just a question on could an a320 be able to preform a GA at such low altitude.

If it is senstive to mention the particular Airline , it is noted not to mentioned next time.

I well know that GA's occur and happens somewhere and at some point in the world everyday and the SOP's are carried out. Saftey first.


TOPBUNK thanks for the reply and not a butt kicking.

Anyway enough of all this complaining and thanks all.:)

[DishMan]

TopBunk - Thanks for the info too.

I am only a humble SLF - and strangely enough after many years and many miles I have only ever experienced one GA. It was in I believe an AB320 :oh: dropping into Vienna one very very snowy night. It was a few years back and the FD door was open I had an aisle seat up front so watched us coming in through the snow.

There was no apparent reason for the last minute GA...it just happened. No explaition from the FD either.

IF I had known of PPrune back then I would have probably have posted something similar to Fintan out of curiosity in the hope that the wealth of experience possessed by the Piloting fraternity would enlighten a curious wingless person whether snow storms increase the risk of a GA......

The occasional naivity that comes through from us "un-enlightened" ones is usually treated with TopBunk's kind approach. If I wanted to get burnt to a frazzle I would try posting some comment in the MIL forum about how lucky the MIL chaps are to get all those free hours in their books before heading off to civy street. So please guys (piloty types with or without years of experience) keep up your NORMAL level of good will and kindness. Let the Mods Mod if they need to! ;)

[Doors to Automatic]

Fintan

I too would like to offer you support for your original post. When I joined this forum in 1999 it was a far friendlier place & one where pilots and others in the know would offer advice and answer questions from less knowledgeable folk.

Its a great shame that it has become full of jumped-up primadonnas who can't wait to jump down the throat of any non-pilot who dares to pose a question.

I'll happily answer your question as a non-pilot but one who knows as much about flying as any of the rude people who have posted here - and to pre-empt any idiot I am an experienced air transport consultant not an armchair MS flight simulator pilot.

Most aircraft can go-around even when on the ground - the aircraft is committed to stay on the ground once the spoliers deploy (and certainly if reverse is applied). So a GA from 1-2m whilst not desirable is certainly possible and safe.

There, that wasn't difficult was it?


:mad:

[clarityinthemurk]

The original question was a perfectly reasonable one, given the passenger´s reported view of the GA. If the GA was indeed caused by a severe gust at very low level, just how close would the aircraft have been to hitting the ground on the GA with the nose (and therefore the main carriage) significantly yawed off the runway centre-line? This in most cases would be a crash. I note that of the many disparaging remarks that have already been made in reply to the original post, not many have actually addressed the potentially significant question posed.

[digidave]

I don't wish to upset anyone but I am curious with regard to something that Notso Fantastic posted.

He writes He should not have identified the flight so precisely. It is a complete non-event, but the pilots should not be so easily fingered for doing the correct safe thing, no doubt perfectly competently. Why should it matter if they are "fingered" if they are doing exactly what they are trained to do? Who would they be trying to hide the GA from?

I have seen similar reactions to those above to other innocent GA queries. We (SLF regulars on PPRuNe) know they are a regular thing, we know they are not life threatening, we know that they are fully documented and briefed - but they are out of the ordinary and we are curious.

Some pilots seem to think that us SLF are criticising their actions - not so, we're just curious and where better to ask than here on PPRuNe, where we can ask REAL pilots?

[dons asbestos underpants]
dd

Fintan, sorry for the thread drift.

[BOAC]

'Clarity' - NOD has covered this really. All multi-engined aircraft have the performance to go-around from touch-down. For example, a g/a at the last minute on a low-vis automatic landing may well result in the wheels touching the runway. This is not a problem. To answer your specific 'q' about the 'crab angle' on the gear, aircraft are certificated to land with this crab angle in crosswinds. The 'nosewheel' is normally well off the ground and would not be expected to touch in a late g/a.

Despite all the raised blood pressures here, can I assure all SLF (and journos:D ) that there was almost certainly little hazard in performing this particular g/a and it would, no doubt, have been better than the alternative!

The only advice I wish to offer to 'fintan' (and to many others!) is to get in the habit of looking at the many forum options Danny and the team provide and try to throw the topic into the correct forum. Hopefully you will then get a measured response:eek:

[davethelimey]

BOAC - this reminds me of a post in tech forum, in which someone wonders whether it would be worth attaching motors to the landing carriage to save tyres. My point is that someone pointed out that wheel spin-up triggers all sorts of slowing malarky, including autobrakes and spoilers.

Surely if a wheel touches the ground and spins, everything else deploys?

Or am I missing the point? :ooh:

[clarityinthemurk]

BOAC - what angle of yaw can you safely land an A320 which is tracking straight down the runway, with the nose off centre-line? Not more than a few degress I might suggest, and certainly nothing like a yaw of 30 or 40 degrees which could occur in a severe gust signficantly beyond the certificated cross-wind limit. As far as I am aware the main gear is not articulating.

[BOAC]

dtl - if a g/a has been initiated, the aeroplane (even an Airbus - sorry!:D ) 'knows' it is not landing.

citm - I have no knowledge of the AB limits/handling. The gear certainly is not 'articulating' - that is a rare thing. I would suggest that is what we Captians are expected to handle - ie if you are not happy, go-round. I think 30-40 deg drift and I would be away from there, personally!

[fmgc]

I don't think that anybody means to be a prima-donna nor be rude but if there was a post here about every go around made every day then the site may as well be shut down.

It is neither a rumour nor relevant news.