why no VFR at night??

[fudgy2000]

Why is there no VFR at night?? I dont understand. You can still naviagate cant you by towns and features??

Also could you legally fly at night without a night qualification- without carrying pax.???

[FlyingForFun]

There is no VFR at night because the CAA say so.

That doesn't mean you can't fly at night, and navigate using towns/roads/etc. It just means that, no matter what method of navigation you use, you have to do it under IFR if you're outside controlled airspace. Which means you have to fly at the correct quadrantal levels if you're above 3000', and you have to be at least 1000' above the nearest obstacle within 5nm of your track.

You do, of course, have to remain clear of clouds and in sight of the surface, even though you're IFR, because that's a restriction on your license which is more restricting than the rules of IFR.

In answer to the last question, no, carrying pax does not affect whether you can fly legally at night without the qualification. The only time pax makes a difference is for your currency (three t/os and landings as sole manipulator of the controls in the last 90 days, one of which must be at night, if you want to carry pax).

FFF
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[RodgerF]

Quote:

and you have to be at least 1000' above the nearest obstacle within 5nm of your track.


This requirement also only applies above 3000'. At or below 3000' the requirement is merely to be clear of cloud and in sight of the surface.

[FlyingForFun]

You are quite right, Rodger - thanks for the correction.

The 1000' rule does not apply when at or below 3000', clear of cloud and in sight of the surface. But without an IMCR/IR, you are restricted to being clear of cloud and in sight of the surface anyway, so the 1000' can not possibly apply at or below 3000'. My mistake.

FFF
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[DB6]

Fudgy, NB the difference between VFR and VMC. The former is a set of rules (neatly summarised above) the latter the prevailing meteorological conditions. You can quite easily have night VMC but the CAA require you to fly by IFR not VFR. BoIIocks really but there we are :D .

[Tinstaafl]

Also, other countries do have VFR at night aka Night VFR eg Oz & USA. USA includes N.VFR as part of the PPL privileges, Oz has it as an add-on rating.

N.VFR is very common in Oz. It's effectively a 3rd class of flight rules ie VFR, IFR, N.VFR. Very handy it is, too.

[The Stooge]

MMMMMMM very handy if you want to kill yourself

[FlyingForFun]

Excuse me, Stooge? What's handy if you're trying to kill yourself??? :confused:

FFF
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[mad_jock]

Flying at night in a SEP is what he is refering to.

I always think of the night xcountry bit of the Night training as the bit where you try and show the student how fecking stupid it is flying anywhere at night with only one engine. Actually I did my night restriction removal in my FIC. I would advise against this now, you really don't need the stress and danger involved in training at night until you have a fair few hours instructing under your belt. It was the blind leading the blind me with 6 hours sep at night teaching them!!!! Now i would say you need at least restriction removed and also 20-30 hours yourself before being allowed to apply for the night restriction to be removed.

And before you start say how likely is that, i have had to take the family of a dead student over the point where he ditched at night with the instructor on night training. Not very pleasant i can tell you.

MJ

[slim_slag]

An older and wiser pilot than me might say "Either fly at night not at all, or a lot"

And you can see perfectly well when the moon is full. Pitch dark over mountains you trust your engine. A sensible priviledge to have available, no reason why night VFR should be prevented by regulation.

[FlyingForFun]

Well, no doubt that night flying is riskier than daytime VFR flying, especially in a single-engined aircraft (although I wasn't aware that anyone had mentioned how many engines the aircraft had anywhere on this thread up until now....)

But the way Stooge's post comes across, it's as if he's saying that anyone taking off at night under any circumstances is not going to come back alive. Which is total and utter crap - as proven by the hundreds of pilots who fly single-engined aircraft at night every winter and come back alive.

Yes, of course there are risks. Some of them can be mitigated to a large extent, e.g. by not flying over mountains at night. Some of them can't. Some of the risks are there during the day just as much as at night. Discussing the risks, and ways of making night flying as safe as possible, is valid and important. Writing off the whole concept of night flying as "very handy if you want to kill yourself" is not helpful. And it's also not at all relevant in a thread where the original poster was asking about legal issues of flying at night, not about practical issues.

FFF
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[WestWind1950]

In Germany it is perfectly legal to fly at night, as long as you posses the "night qualification" on your license. A few years ago you could fly in uncontrolled airspace without a flight plan but this changed to flight plan required on ALL crosscountry flights.
Night flying can be really nice.... but unfortunately there aren't that many airfields open at night :{ otherwise no problem... just make sure you do a proper flight planning and make sure the weather is good....

Westy

[New F/O]

Hi,

I would like to digress a bit if I may and ask UK pilots/instructors – where would you land at night if the only engine you had quitted and you were too far from an airfield? This is an old chestnut where I instruct (I have no night rating) but just wondered what do you teach and more so what would you do for real? My option would be to land on a road if there wasn’t an airfield near by despite being trained otherwise…..any takers ???

New F/O

[nzer]

Night VFR is permitted in NZ and Australia

[RowleyUK]

where would you land at night if the only engine you had quitted

Hmmmm, are you sure 'land' is the right word for this situation?:=


Personally,I'd have to say, i dont know where id land! Its that black it has to be experienced to be appreciated!!!:{

[homeguard]

I was always taught;

In the event of an engine failure at night - turn off all lights - head for the darkest area - that being the least likely to have houses etc.

Just before an expected landing - switch on the landing lights - don't like what you see - switch 'em off!

[FlyingForFun]

F/O,

I would say that each situation has to be treated separately. I'm not sure about the idea of landing on a road, though. The only way you're going to know where the road is, is if there are either cars on it (bad idea to land - I'd rather kill myself in a field than kill myself and a dozen drivers on a road), or streetlights (are they far enough apart that your wings are going to fit between them?)

In most cases, I think I would go for a dark area, and hope it turned out to be something I could land on. And then I'd go for homeguard's idea of switching on the landings light... and if I don't like what I see, switching it off again!

No doubt that this is a big problem. I seem to remember from my ATPL groundschool that, in commercial aviation, you deal with risk as follows: take the chances of a situation arising. Then take the chances of a successful outcome from that situation. Multiply them together, and if that comes out as less than one in a million, it's an acceptable risk. With night flying in a single-engined aircraft, we have to admit that the chances of a successful outcome following an engine failure are small. But the chances of the engine failure happening in the first place, in any almost-modern aircraft, are also small - so the total risk, although too big to be ignored, is actually not all that big.

At least, that's the way I justify it to myself!

FFF
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[New F/O]

Thanks for the replies.

Luckily I don’t do any single engine night flying and I have never felt comfortable with it.

Flying for Fun,

I see your point entirely about not landing on a road because you might kill a few others along the way trying to save your own bacon but I find it hard to stomach gliding into the unknown especially if you have friends or family on board, I would do everything I could to save them.
The roads I was thinking of would be big, e.g. motorways…..big enough for something like a Worrier but as you quite rightly point out you could end up with a pile up and more casualties if not deaths.

I guess your licence would be taken away from you by the CAA but then I look at it this way that you’re alive, you’ve been given a second chance to live and the licence is in that respect neither here nor there.

Cheers,

F/O