IR @ Tayflite Vs Multiflight

[one_knot]

This is my first post so go easy on me if I have done anything wrong. I am looking into doing the 50 hour Instrument rating this summer with either Tayflite, Perth or with Multiflight, Leeds-Bradford.

I intend to visit both soon to get a feel for them. Tayflite say they are "friendly" and I want to know if this is a euphamism for small and dead but at least they are only an FTO where as Multiflight do other things such as aircraft charter.

Perth is not a controlled airfield does this have any bearing on the quality of experience? Leeds-Bradford is on the other hand a busy international airfield in busier airspace which may be better practice... Although the runways at Perth are more challenging !

Both have the FNPT II so there isn't that much flying although I think I will be do more than the minimum 15 hours.

I have researched both independently and both seem excellent but I would really appreciate any views on the topic as it is a lot of money.

Multiflight have a BE-76 Duchess
Tayflite have a PA-34 Seneca II


Thanks

[RowleyUK]

What about Leeds Flying school?

you get more hours on the A/C than you do at Multiflight!

sorry to complicate things even more!:ok:

[Hufty]

....and what about Bristol Flying Centre - also an FNPT II and Senecas.... :ok:

I visited Tayflite when I was shopping around for the IR and they seemed friendly enough. Flying in the open airspace of Scotland is great - plenty of places to practice your approaches and some real weather....

[Absolutely Terrific]

No matter where you choose, it's important to ensure that you check out the following factors:

1. The reputation of your prospective instructor (is he/she well regarded in the industry or just in his/her mind - the flight training industry is full of prima donnas);

2. The current PASS RATE for recent students taking CPLs and IRs (and no, a partial does not qualify as a first time pass);

3. The state of the aircraft you will be training in (serviceability is the main bugbear with older aircraft and especially smaller operators - note here that Multiflight has its own maintenance facility);

4. The focus of the establishment and its staff (are they concerned with your training as their no.1 priority, or do they have a host of other sideline aviation interests);

5. The financial state of the organisation (does it look solid - like the aircraft, the state of the facilities can be telling);

6. The morale of other students (busy/motivated or lethargic/disillusioned).

It's important to do the research, because the quality of the training and the pleasure or otherwise, of the experience, will follow you for the rest of your career.

Good Luck.

[one_knot]

Thanks everyone for your replies I intend to check out Leeds Flying School whilst I am visiting Multiflight however I think I would like to do my sim time in an FNPT II.

Hufty thanks but it has taken me long enough to get it down to two FTO's !!! Open airspace is great for PPL flying but for an IR would Leeds-Bradford not be better experience?

Absolutely Terrific thanks you have given me a lot of tips. I will certainly ask for the current pass rate but I don't know if it will be freely available.

[RowleyUK]

Why use a FNPT II for your sim time?

The majority of the work in the CPL is just for twin familiarisation and the stuff for the IR is all on instruments so it doesnt make a difference whether you have a view out the window or not cos you wont be looking!!

An FNPT II will defo be order of the day when it comes to the MMC though!

:E :ok: :E

[Hufty]

Hi one_knot - I did mine at Bristol which is a pretty busy international airport and didn't really find it helped. You're not in the airport environment that much and by the time you're in the aircraft you'll be doing upper air work in the local practice area and flying routes. Your workload there will be more a function of the airways structure rather than the size of the airfield you departed from. It will be busier for you in the final stages of your approaches for sure, but I found a busy airport a problem as through the 16 hours of flying I did I wasted around an hour in total orbiting while queues of jet traffic landed ahead of us. At GBP6 per minute that is a lot of money to waste. :sad:


By the time you get to the IR you should be good at RT anyway so I'm not sure how much extra you'll learn.

[mad_jock]

I agree with rowely why FNPT II?

You don't need visuals.

I to did my IR at LFS and must have done over 100hrs on there sim dual and solo.

The Extra hours in the twin look great in your log book.

Another advantage with LFS is that if you are on a IR course they allow you to use the sim solo whenever you like.

The cougar is an exellent Instrument platform to learn on.

LFS also allow you to pay as you go.

I am sure once you have braved the reception at Multiflight and then waited until someone is ready to be bothered with you. Then wandered across to meet Dylan who has no problems about showing you round the school and leaving you with current students by yourself. For the choice to be quite quickly a LFS or Tayflight.

Now the difference between those 2 is not much I have had recently 2 friends who have had first time passes with tayflight had have had nothing but good things to say about them. Although both of them did more in the twin than was in the original program.

So i would imagine it will be down to price after that and wx at both sites. As you say Scone dosn't have any legal instrument procedures but does have better wx than LBA. LBA has some bloody horrible wx most of the year if its not blowing a gale its down to minimums or viz is 3k if your lucky.

MJ


Actually you might have a 3rd option, the old bastard H Crone has set up a IR school in PIK. He was how shall we say famous in his day as a CAAFU. But I know someone who recently has done a MEP with him and found the experence more than pleasant. I should imagine that your IR course will cover a whole lot more than the standard content to a very high standard.

Also being taught by him will possibly open a few doors at interview. And don't be suprised if you get a "that bastard gave me a partial, for picking my nose" or some such like from a Chief pilot interviewing you, but the CP will know that after Henry has finished with you, you will know what you are doing.

[G-LOST]

LFS certainly warrants further investigation.

LOST

[RowleyUK]

Yeah LFS are a good school with good people......shame about the twins!!!

[horris]

Sorry first post on new name (computer probs)

I’m a 400hr PPL etc and have spent the last 2yrs contemplating whether to take the plunge into the ATPL exams. Well I’m now into mod 2 BGS (DL) and have spent the last year looking around UK flying schools as I travel with work. Here’s what I’ve decided to do after looking into the ins and outs :-

Tayflite

Went there last year and found it very friendly with excellent kit, the airspace would suit me as it is fair uncongested and would in my opinion give unhampered training. As I have said I was impressed with both the aircraft and sim. Great scenery a bonus.

Bristol

Was extremely impressed with the facilities, lots of aircraft and good availability, this shouldn’t make serviceability an issue. Also you are only changed from take off to landing. (nice). Lodgings in the local area are also plentiful and BGS just over the road.

Professional Bournmouth

Again nice aircraft bit far to travel for me to travel but I would definitely give it my consideration if I lived a bit closer.

Multiflight

Living 20 miles from Leeds this is probably in my top 2 schools, I did a night rating there in early 98. But being a keen PPL I fly from sherburn for the club environment airspace etc.
Being on my door step it would make an ideal choice as I can travel from home but Leeds is now becoming a busy airport so I have still to look into the amount of time orbiting holding etc but being from a club environment this may also make my RT top notch.

Went to there last open day and was impressed, at least 1 twin was de-iced which is good for me as I will be training in Nov (hopefully).
Been told by a lot of people to try and do as much of the training with the CFI and not his missus (wont go into the reasons but comments far from complementary). The sim is great and I was led to believe that if you both the CPL and IR with them you get a reduction on the MCC. (But not quite sure if this is still available).


Leeds flying school

Was considering this school but have definitely ruled it out now. When I visited the atmosphere was very friendly and probably just what I wanted on first my first look, I was very impressed with newish sim and the way I was treated on my first visit. Several reasons for changing my mind:-
I could not get any idea of the pass rate of the school however hard I tried.
There aircraft seem to be constantly in sherburn being fixed.
I have been advised that student’s time is not well allocated and that maintenance trips are used as training flights. They have 2 twins but 1 always appears to be under repair.
I have spoken to several past students and they have stated that a lot of time is spent sat around with note much constructive happening.
The school is half amile from the airport.
I flew a lot out of sherburn last summer when there university students where there being trained and I found there CFI to be somewhat distasteful and full of himself.
All this I feel would detract from the training I am seeking.
I will however use Leeds for my instructor rating if I do end up doing one; I have heard nothing but praise for the course and the instructor both on my travels and at other schools. Simon Anderson comes highly recommended even from their direct opposition.

Sorry for the long post I hope it helps.

I will be choosing Either Multiflight or Bristol.

GOOD LUCK

[Northern Highflyer]

Have you considered Triple A at Humberside ?

I don't have any first hand experience of it but have been told the standards are very high. Also based at a fully equipped airport which isn't too busy.

[PENNINE BOY]

Would choose Tayflight because of the uncongested airspace. At Leeds you have to book the beacon and with the summer season starting soon the airport is going to get very crowded with commercial traffic.

As for Henry Crowe ex BAE flying training at Prestwick !! Mega proffesional he trains you to fly like the airlines require not just to bash a test route to pass the IR.

As for Multiflight well ? Great at taking your money of you and then treating you as a leper when you revisit the place at a later date.But turn up in a shiny jet they are all over you. Come back the good old days of Knight Air!!!!

End result I would choose Scotland less congestion allways ends up in more hands on flying instead of wasted mins at the hold or orbiting.

I wish you well in your choice and hope you enjoy it when you finally get on line with your first job!!!!!

[RowleyUK]

Dont be influenced by the super shiny brochures multiflight have!!:yuk:

[witchdoctor]

I would echo MJ's comments about Multiflight being slightly uninterested and unhelpful. I was looking to do a multi IR renewal a few months ago which I understood I could do in the sim, but Multiflight couldn't or wouldn't give me a straight answer and their costs were rather sketchy.

Tayflite on the other hand gave me a crystal clear answer in a matter of minutes and very simple costings for the renewal. Needless to say they got my business even though Leeds is much closer.

I found the instructors and facilities to be perfectly good and I thoroughly enjoyed my visit.

[G-LOST]

The instructor referred to at LFS is Stuart Anderson, and yes he is highly regarded.

LOST.

[RowleyUK]

Stuart Anderson? .....He's not the CFI at Leeds anymore:p

[G-LOST]

No, he's not any longer. But he does take instructor courses and is very well regarded. Stuart is not the CFI horris refers to.

LOST

[RowleyUK]

You are correct G LOST...... On both comments!:ok:

[non standard]

Captain Kevin Rowell is the CFI at Leeds.

Stu A's a top bloke, running a good sound course that's very hard to beat, did me proud and loads of good on many an occasion.:ok:

[LFS]

I appreciate people are entitled to their opinion, but I realy do wish that people who do not know our school and do not perosnally know our CFI would stop commenting. If you actually asked anyone who had trained with Kevin they would have nothing but praise for him.

[horris]

In reply to you comments LFS

I was at Sherburn flying during the summer whilst you were using are airfield to train your university students.
Although I do not know your CFI (I have seen him once whilst visiting your school).


To be honest I and many others are pleased you will not be returning to Sherburn this summer.

All I am saying is that your school is not for me, it may well be for others and I am sure some students will respond well and be impressed. Unless of course I decide upon an instructor rating when I will be booking with Stewart sorry not Simon I stand corrected, I am not perfect like your CFI.

As I say Multiflight or Bristol for me.

I’m now off back to my ATPL notes for a few more hours of study.

[mad_jock]

That really dosn't sound like the bloke who taught me how to fly instruments horris. If anything its stewart who can come across as a bit of a case.

Was the guy scruffy and baldy? or fat with a macum accent?

Kevin was always very down to earth and he is a bloody good instructor.

If it turns out that it was stewart you met. Anything he says about his handeling ability is very true, as you will find out on your FIC.

MJ

[LFS]

This is my last post on this topic. Horris, you have olny served to prove my point. You do not know our CFI and so do not really have a reason to comment. Kevin started his career (and many subsequent years) as a Sheburn instructor and has nothing but praise for the facilities and club itself. We had an excellent summer at Sherburn, did not cause and problems and I will not go into the reasons why we do not wish to operate from there again. You are entitled to your opinion just please do not make posts on people you know nothing of. I am not trying to 'self glorify'or be arrogant, just set the record straight.

[horris]

Sorry for being negative but several of the people I speak too feel the same including a few of there past students which makes me think that the comments are not isolated. Again i'm sorry but the way people conduct themselves is a huge factor when impressing new students and generating new business. The manner in which I, the field I fly at , and my aviation buddies were described has made me totally discount the school.

As i say dont dicount leeds,it may suit some just not me.

Multiflight or Bristol for me.

MJ- good luck with your airline job i wish you well, I just dream about doing 220 knots to 5 mile delivering passengers safely to there destination.:cool: :cool: :cool: :cool:

[duir]

horris - I have to say that I am very suprised at what you have to say about LFS. When considering my options last year I paid LFS a visit after visiting many other schools, including Oxford. I must say that nobody came across as rude or arrogant, in fact quite the reverse. My first impression as I pulled up straight after visiting Multiflight was "wow - a porta cabin 1/2 a mile from the airport!". There really couldn't have been more contrast. Multiflight had just hit me with their glossy brochures, private jets and flash sim. They looked like a good pro outfit. Then I went over to the LFS hut. Once inside I was introduced to the freindliest most approachable people I had met to date on my whistle stop tour of UK FTOs. Before I new it I had a large mug of tea and was sat on the sofa talking to a bunch of really enthusiastic Instructors and Dylan made plenty of time to talk to me about figures. Then one of the PPL instructors drove me over to see the Aircraft and was very open and honist about LFS. We sat in one of the cougars for over an hour just bantering about flying. He let me have a damn good look around all the aircraft too. I live in the Lake District and am about as far from a Commercial Field as you can get in England! Hence LFS currently gets my vote - not on Flash appearance and glossy brochures but on word of mouth merit, freindliness and proximity to the Lakes. I have taught Outdoor Pursuits and Personal Development courses for 8 years and I know that the most important things to nurture learning are Comfort of Envoiroment and quality of instruction.

[STATLER]

Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.

Looks like this post is degenerating into the age old story of Multiflight flaming Leeds flying school and Leeds flying school flaming Multiflight.

Been like it as long as I can remember (trained at both worked at LFS), some of the main players in this game could cause trouble in a padded cell all on their own. The backstabbing at both camps is of epidemic proportions, whoever's not in the room sadly gets it.

And no I’m not sat here waiting to be flamed for my comments, don’t care anymore, thankfully moved on.

All I’ll say is that Mr. A is you man, a well respected instructor that I / G-LOST and many others hold in the highest of regard, he can cater for all your needs CPL, IR, FI +all the associated trimmings.

PS JJ and myself are still waiting for a certain someone to show his arse in woolworths as the comment was, 'If James or Stuart get airline jobs I'll show my arse in woolworths window'.;) sorry just couldn't resist.:E

[152driver]

Well, I can’t resist this one and yes, I’ve got an axe to grind. A new identity because I don’t want Dylan the office manager ringing me up or threatening me in any manner.

My gripe with LFS is that I was quite happily slowly doing my PPL with them and then one day BAM, a letter in the post, we’ve dropped you like a hot potatoe and the thrust was we’re not doing any more PPL because LFS is now a pofessional school teaching commercial pilots. I rang up and got some excuses about costs at Leeds airport etc. As you can imagine I was angry with the way I was treated and still am.

They’re a lovely bunch of people altho theres a lot of politics. The aircraft were a bit tatty but they were improving them when I left. The owner is Tony and he’s very pleasant. His son John did some of my training and he was very quiet but a lovely lad and no problems at all. The was an older instructor called James who I did a few flights with and he was straight by the book. I think he’s gone now to the airlines. Then there were other fellows who did weekend work and I flew with a couple (too many really), the really experienced but quite odd fellow Stewart who looks nothing like an instructor but you could just tell he knew his trade and then Kevin who seemed to do all the advanced stuff and sat in the simulator a lot. He had a lot to say. Now I can see where Horris is coming from to be blunt, because Kevin did like to hold an audience and he could tell a good story. I don’t know whether he actually really thinks hes the best around, but I did hear him say so much on more than one occasion and he made a big deal of telling everyone that his way was the only way. To be honest, I was quite frightened of having him as my PPL examiner. What really annoyed me though was the fact that he would run people down behind their back. Instructors, examiners, students, the universe. I sat there on the sofa with a coffee, listening to ‘so and so’s a fool’, ‘we only want to use Tony’s money I’d wish he’d go and stop elsewhere’, ‘I’m the only one who gets anything done around here’ and so on. I don’t think anyone took him very seriously but I heard to much - more than I wanted to know as a customer. The worst moment was when he invited me into his office for a chat, which seemed quite an honour at first but turned into the Spanish inquisiton about my instructors - basically he told me they were all ****e and that he had to lift the standards. As far as I was concerned they were great. I felt uncomfortable because it seemed like he was just out to make trouble.

There you go. I think this is a fair picture, but I have not been back for a year. Daren’t go back now!

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

People people.

There is nothing wrong with LFS or Mulitflight - both reasonable schools doing a reasonable job for a reasonable price. They've been around for a good while and trained a goodly number of people.

Now. You might think Mr Z is a bit of a prat or Mr Y is a bit full of himself. Well thats great. The next person might think Mr Z is a bit of a laugh and Mr Y is gods gift to flight training.

I would put absolutely no stock whatsoever in people posting on anonymous internet forums that they heard last year from someone else that someone else was a tosser etc.

Flying clubs, schools and airports for some reason always have been breeding grounds for feuds, arguments and envy. The only happy airfields I have seen have had single owner/operators and only one school.

To form a highly negative opinion of a man based on overhearing a conversation and then airing that opinion freely to the world - smacks of immaturity.

So knock it on the head people.

It would be fine to say - I didn't go to school X because I didn't gain a favourable impression of some of the staff there.

It is not really fine to say - I went to school X and met Mr Blue and he was saying this and that and I thought what a prat and lots of other people do and I head he's got small feet and blah blah blah.


Cheers

WWW

ps As some posters will note I have edited some posts so the thread may not read as naturally as it did.

[Northern Highflyer]

When I rang round to check on the courses offered I found LFS to be very friendly and polite, whereas Multiflight were very blunt and just didn't seem interested. At the time I wanted to discuss the best way of doing the course. LFS seemed flexible and willing to listen to my needs, Multiflight more or less said it is done their way or not at all.

However, a friend of mine recently went to LFS to do the 10 hour pre CPL course. He was very disappointed with the service he got, no briefing, no insight into the CPL, nothing. Just plot a course, go fly it, and then lots of criticism (not much praise) on his return. He has now moved and is getting on well at another School.

These two are/were on my list of places to do the CPL/IR. Which would I choose ? The jury is still well and truly out on that one. :hmm:

[DoleBoy]

Ok First things first I am not against people having opinions about schools, that's great lord knows I have some very unsavoury opinions about places I learned to fly, but PLEASE don't post them on these forums you ARE playing with peoples livelyhoods.

Yes you personally may believe they have no right to this or that but the best advice is ALWAYS ALWAYS go visit a school talk to the students talk to the management, but do not air anyones dirty laundry, otherwise we may as well just all go and watch TRISHA or discuss My wife won't wear a schoolgirl uniform for me.

All organisations have good and bad periods the measure of the organisation is how quickly they sort out the problems.

Kind Regards

DB :sad:

[LDG_GEAR _MONITOR]

Why all the interest in LFS and multiflight?whats wrong with the other north west places?

I'm sure you get get CPL's at blackpool,liverpool,an if go south thing tatenhill etc.sure you can go to other places to get CPL/IR than keeds yes i know have to posn aircraft for the IR test but not the end of the world?

just curious

[RowleyUK]

Who'd build an airport on top of a 670' hill???? :{

Who'd build a main runway 32/14 notorious for crosswinds??:{

Must have been p:mad:d the day they built it!!:p

Who'd base the exam centre at an airport on a hill??:confused:

It's all wrong from the ground up!!:yuk:

Whichever you decide on out of LFS/M.....be prepared to be rained off, fogged in, snowed in, out of x-wind limits, Iced in ....ALOT!:{

Flying, a mugs game!:p

[pa28biggles]

I have to stick my neck out here.
I have done all my training with Multiflight, and am currently hour building through them. They have always been helpful and friendly.
I've only ever had one problem though with Multiflight. I arrived for a flight, and the aircraft was tech. This was a PA28 that they had loaned from a company, and they were ready to send it back due to its unrealiability. I took it in my stride, and a few months later, I arrived for a flight and another aircraft was tech (C172). I was a bit annoyed, so I had a word with the head of training about this, and the PA28 that were tech previously. They arranged for an instructor to give me a checkout on another aircraft (PA28), free of charge, within a few hours (as soon as an instructor had a spare minute). I spent the rest of the day flying their PA28 (not the unrealiable one, that one had been sent back).
I was lucky because there was a PA28 free at the time, and the instructor had some spare time. However Multiflight did their best to help me, thanks to their Head of Flight Training Mike McKenzie. Aircraft servicability otherwise has never been an issue.
To be objective, sometimes it can take a short period of time before somebody deals with you, but Pat, Sue, Dan, Patrick, whoever is behind the desk, will acknowledge you and let you know. It seems to be that they're busy, polite, but not ignorant. It's a bit of a pain sometimes, but don't all companies that provide services have their postives and negatives...:)
Good luck to all in their flight training, wherever you go.:ok:

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

a LOT of students have an unrealistic expectation of their FTO's.

Aircraft go tech all the time. Doesn't matter if its your PA28 at LFS, my B737 at Bristol or somebody elses brand new B777 at Heathrow. It happens.

I know its a lot of money but the margins as in most things to do with flying are so tight that it doesn't take much for there to be no aircraft, no instructor or nobody to return your call at ANY FTO.

This is not so much the case in the USA but then customer service is generally better there anyway.

Cheers

WWW

[horris]

LFS

I realise that you stated the last post was in fact your last but I have a few very quick questions. Please respond.

1) what is your schools pass rate. By this I mean first time passes not first series passes.( if you need me to explain further, this is where the student goes to the examiners office having paid the test fee, meets the examiner, plans the route, goes out to the aircraft, gets in, flies the I.R test route with the examiner, gets out with a pass certificate and does not have to visit, see or indead fly with the examiner again).

2) Are maintenance trips usually done done by students as part of their training.

3) why is only 1 twin available at any one time.

Many thanks

Horris

and no i'm nothing to do with multiflight, just waying up my options:confused:

[152driver]

I would think there's a snowballs chance in hell that your questions will be answered Horris. As to 2 my personal experience was yes.

[non standard]

I have to agree with you 152 that the loss of PPL training was a bad thing for LFS. There were and still are many many pi$$Ed off students.

I realise that there are many conspiracy theories regarding the whys and wherefores of its sad demise, which I won’t delve into, what I will say is that the airport has been of no help to LFS whatsoever, flying training is probably an inconvenience to their plans. PPL training IMHO is the life blood of a school and if the students are treated properly they often remain loyal to the school and move onto the CPL/IR module with that school.
I personally think that it was axed to make way for the get rich quick university scheme, which is quite apparently not shaping up as expected. There has been no fixed base until recently and they have had to move the operation to Sheffield now for the flying phase, would have thought Sherburn would have been better.

Are the instructional staff in post to cater for the high volume expected this summer?
Do they have sufficient aircraft for the course?
Where are the students going to do circuit?
ALSO

Why haven’t multiflight had had similar restrictions and charges imposed upon their operation?
Is it because of Hood’s cash and influence?
Is flying training only being tolerated at Leeds because the CAA examiner is LBA based?
If the CAA was to move the examiner to Blackpool for instance would flying training be curtailed at the LBA?


Anyone got any views.


N-S

[RowleyUK]

I flew some maintenance flights for LFS....the hours were not necessarily used on training....they were all for free! free multi time!

that adds up to about 200 quids worth of free flying!

Why is there only one twin available at one time? Good question!

[G-LOST]

I doubt that any flying school will publish their pass rates in an honest and totally transparent fashion. In the cold light of day they won't look very good. It only takes one or two below-par students to pull the figures down. The problem is when they are all below-par, seemingly!

Having said that, everyone has a bad day occasionally. We can all stuff up a test to one degree or another, at any time. I'm all too aware that my job is up for review every six months. That's what gets the adrenaline going.

It would be helpful to publish pass figures though, if only to reveal that far too much weight is placed on pushing students up for a test having completed the minimum hours but before they're ready. A very real pressure imposed on instructors by marketing expectations, I fear. In an ideal world everyone would pass, having been trained to their individual requirement.

LOST

[Absolutely Terrific]

Now here's a question for y'all.

How many of these supposedly 'expert' CPL/IR instructors or examiners got first time passes themselves?

Or were they mere mortals once?

[G-LOST]

Absolutely Terrific,

That would be very very interesting to reveal, but apart from imparting a healthy dose of humility, it would serve little purpose because people can change. I have a mate who had a bad run of luck on the IR but is now a very competent airline pilot. Equally, there are those pilots who get worse. Some never change, usually the ones who think they are brilliant from day one.

Nearly forgot to add that I'm looking forward to the trip down to Woolworths for the arse display. I'm free on Tuesday afternoon unless called out from standby! See you then Kev?

LOST no longer.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Asking for one school to 'publish' a 'pass rate' is too facile a solution to a complex issue.

The only people who could do it would be the CAA under a complex set of rules. Would tests discontinued due to Tech or Weather be training failures? If a school such as Exeter Airways which takes on a lot of converting ex-Mil pilots is compared on first time pass rates with a place like LFS which does not; well one is going to look much better on paper. Yet were you as Jow Wannabe to rock up at Exeter in full expectation of a first time pass you might a) be dissapointed and b) left floundering in the wake of the other students.

(To be fair to Exeter that probably isn't the case but its an illustration in point).

So raw statistics would be pretty meaningless.

And anyway - if first time pass rates became critical to FTO's business all that would happen is that a lot of candidates would be made to fly a lot more hours before being allowed to be put up for test in the FTO's aircraft. So you'd all loose out financially through over-training. The 'best' schools would become the worst offenders in over-training.

There's nothing wrong with a partial or a failure along the way in basic training. We've all been there me included and shortly after I was an IRI in Jerez... It makes no odds and in fact can be a useful anecdote at later airline interview..... So tell us about a time when you had to cope with personal failure in some way? etc etc

Go to lots of schools, choose one - THEN - work Hard at making it work for you. Don't expect it all to be perfect and be as critical of yourself as you are of your resources and instructors.

Its good practice to get used to coping with less than ideal training with people you don't actualy really get along with as this describes a great deal of later airline training that you will receive. It ain't all fluffy I can tell you.

Good luck,

WWW

[STATLER]

The IR is more often than not done towards the end of the training for the ATPL when your training budget has usually been exceeded by several thousand quid, thing are getting tight, the bank wont lend you any more cash , your credit card is maxed out along with that of your partners. Generally the IR accounts for the most expensive part of your training costs, so now the pressure is on. A first time pass is now a must in the least possible amount of time. (You could in fact substitute the word time with cost).

Many students now pitch up at the school of their choice with all this pressure and worry, the student now tries to complete the course in the minimum 55hours or whatever it is these days. You get rained off, the aircraft gets snagged etc, etc, etc. time and money are really getting critical now. Your 55 hour IR course is now complete but you instructor advises a few more hours in the sim and maybe a mock test route or two. NO, NO, im running outta cash the student cries. So the student elects to have a crack at the 170a, gets lucky and goes for the test, Fails it and is now faced with mandatory retraining, another test fee etc etc.

This is not an unusual course of events. Maybe if the student had listened to his instructor he would have done a bit more training and got a first time pass.

I don’t think the publishing of schools pass rates would provide you with much , as already stated a few more students like the one above and the schools pass rating could alter quite dramatically, also some candidates handle the test scenario rather better than others so any one set of students could buck the trend either way.

Also if its any consolation first time pass rates, 98% overall pass mark in the written exams etc only matter to those that are looking for their first aviation job or are applying to the likes of CTC.

I failed my IR monumentally; all my own fault not my instructor’s, the schools, the aircraft. MY FAULT. Did it matter? Yep sure did, but only at the time. Did it impede my progress to the airline? No, I secured three interviews with three airlines, now RHS regional TP.

Pick the school that suits you, visit not once but several times if possible, have a crafty word with several of their current students to see how they feel and if you like them give them a go, at the end of the day if your not happy tell em and if nothing improves vote with your feet.

G-LOST, Tuesdays OK for me but it will have to be in the afternoon, maybe we could use Airsupply's window instead, it's less far to travel. See you there then Kev? Just let us know.:E ;)

[152driver]

WELL THEN, A CHANCE TO SEE IF HE'LL PUT HIS ASS WHERE HIS MOUTH IS!!!!:ok:

[non standard]

152,ass where mouth is will never happen.

Both SH and JJ were fortunate enough to secure work with two fairly good airlines , but they worked as a team which in my opinion gave them the edge.

I've not heard much of what was said but i've heard about the woolworths window comment.

Must be green eyed monster syndrome!!!

Good luck to you both, you are well out of it.

Statler, studes may well identify with what you say. I do, but it gets no better when you get instructing, just that you get paid to fly, my loans are just about to kick in. ouch

[STATLER]

NON S Hear what you say. but being paid to fly is awesome. Once you are earning the banks will lay off you. I sent them a photocopy of my licence and showed that I was working as an instructor, bought me loads of time. GOOD LUCK

The students cant be blamed, the cost of flight training is huge whereever you do it. But students do try to get through with the minimum of training, I know I did.
Getting past the CAA examiner is a different kettle of fish, you have to be up to standard, and up to speed. If not you fail.

I failed. But so do many other.

I did not get asked at the two out of three interviews I attended about any pass mark.

As I say people put to much emphasis upon pass rates and marks.

Cant wait for Tuesday, really hope its airsupply.
A famous G-LOST quotes is 'chickens come home to roost' QUALITY just QUALITY.:cool: :ok:

[The All Seeing I]

I usually just browse the prune as i have never seen anything that i feel that i have the knowledge or indeed the apparent high level of literacy to respond to a thread.

Tonight that changed. Not only was i appalled by Mr Horris's appalling use of our native tongue, but indeed the attitude and to be brutally honest, ill-founded derogatory comments about Leeds Flying School.

I Have been in and out of the school for little over a year now.
Subsequently i have been able to construct what i feel to be an accuarate picture of the school and it's work ethos.


As Statler qute rightly states, a pass rate is relatively insignificant, as to the quality of an FTO

A primary theme throughout this thread appears to be that everyone's first impressions of LFS seems to be that the staff are friendly and professional.

Which brings me swiftly on to my main thrust. Attitude. we could all sit at our PC's and bitch about FTO's until the Freisians decide for a homeward journey. This to me seems to be inrcedibly non constructive. In the short time i have been involved in and around this industry the main thing i have noticed is that everyone involved appears to have a knife in their hand and a stab wound on their back.

I Know of several flying schools up and down the country who seem to buy aircraft in order to keep maintenance organisations in business. Its all a question of Balance. People seem to want a zero hour aircraft with no snags and still pay an infitesimal hourly rate. You pay your money and take your choice.

I Can understand Mr Horris' point regarding the serviceability of aircraft ("Thats Aviation") However, to post on this forum that the best reason for not choosing an FTO is simply because you do not gel with the CFI is ludricous. Although not quite as ridiculous as aerobatics in the overhead of a GA airfield. Being a member at sherburn i'm sure you'll agree

Might i suggest that a more constructed argument without typographical or grammatical errors would be more well placed here. Sorry to be so pedantic, but if you cannot construct a decent sentence and spell it correctly how do you propose dealing with an instrument rating.

Best Regards

T.A.S.I

[George Foreman]

Since this thread has become a bit of a visitors book, I feel the need to add that I did my PPL with LFS last year and I was a satisfied customer. I chose them because they were a well regarded commercial school and from my first contact they had a friendly, affable, down to earth, yet professional approach. Most of all the people there were willing to give freely of their time, and to talk over my many and varied questions about the industry generally. I used to work for a big corporate so I liked the idea of a smaller, family run FTO for my flight training!

I learnt a lot from James, Stuart, Geoff and Jon who instructed me at that time and I credit them with preparing me well for my further commercial training. It was also a good laugh.

It seems to be a fact of life that all organisations (from the smallest to the biggest) have their politics. People have character (I think I've worked out who you all are!), they move on, and change is often inevitable when faced with external pressures outside one's control. It seems that aviation is no different. A good sense of humour and a bit of humility seem to be prerequisites.

Despite the commercial/operational constraints LFS were under at the time in offering PPL training from LBA, I was promised that as an existing customer they would get me through. In the event my deadline for leaving the country was brought forward, and thanks to the infamous Yorkshire Wx it was a close run thing... After being rained off right up to my last day, Tony Denson met me early doors the following (Saturday) morning for my Skill Test, and I left the country with a PPL and a smile on my face.

So, thanks LFS. It was fun. I would come back.

On Multiflight's FTO, I cannot comment other than to say that their main focus at Leeds is also on more advanced training (in fact they encourage ab-initio people to do a PPL with their partner FTO in the US), and that they did in the end make me a highly competitive offer for my business.

I spent many a frosty winter morning on Multiflight's apron, checking over and preparing my LFS aircraft, and I found their ground staff in particular to be friendly, helpful, and good humoured.

Kind Regards to all at Leeds,

George.

[STATLER]

how's it going George, where you up to with your course?

Keep us informed

All the best and good luck

[Stick Flying]

Come on chaps, ease off a little.

Spare a thought for the poor shopkeeper when he discovers an unsightly Crack in his shop window.

[TheDream]

Well I paid my money and took my chance with LFS. I now have a CPL/IR/FI and didn't go over budget.

However if someone were to ask me where to train I'd say go and look for yourself. Ask exactly how much the minimum course is including ALL the extras.

I also think it is important to establish how your readiness for test is judged. Just because you have finished the course doesn't mean you are ready. One school might put you in for test because you have finished the course the other might insist on extra training.

I passed my CPL first time but failed the IR. Who's fault was it? Well....I was flying the plane so it must have been mine!!! That is a fact for everyone who does a test, harsh but true.

So the debate goes on.

By the way LFS do really well to say thay have basically been booted off the airfield by ..........

TD

Forgot to say from my own experience:-
No problems with Jon for my CPL
Kev was great for my IR, although it would be better if he could just get on and instruct he is after all the Chief FLYING Instructor
Stuart excellent for the FI

As for ferry "flights" I probabley gained a couple of hours SEP and an hour MEP for nothing

I also have a mate who did his CPL/IR at Multiflight and had no problems.

As for the weather at Leeds, just don't do the training during the Winter, Spring, Summer or Autumn. :=

Although seriously May to August was not too bad last year.

[VFE]

Some useful info in here amongst the usual drivel from a minority. I think it's perfectly fair to discuss FTO's on here and is one of the main reasons the forum was created by WWW and the PPRuNe Towers team.

However, in my experience you can do all the reasearch in the world on an FTO but the sad fact is you get the luck of the draw at most places. Fact of life in this game that some people will go to one FTO and get through first time, with fantastic service all round and others will go to the same school two months later only to feel like doggie poop on the FTO's boot. I have experienced both ends of that pineapple, most recently on the good end for a change but was sharing a dinner table with guys who hated the place so it just goes to show.......

Check accomodation, aircraft costs, hidden extra's like sneaky groundschooling charges and the experience of instructors. If they are all twenty something Jack The Lads then chances are that although they may be professional for their experience, that experience is smaller and less valuable than a career instructor in his forties or fifties.

I have found that a prompt return of call from the CFI is a good indicator of interest. Meet the CFI when you visit too. I have arrived at one particular school (who shall remain anonymous) only to be shown around by a secretary who didn't even know the difference between a PA28 and an ATR. Not her fault obviously but needless to say I never trained with that mob!

With regards to this topic I would say if you could find an airport closer to sea level you might stand a better chance of getting finished on time and in budget. Great experience landing in choppy conditions up there but that's if you can get airbourne in the first place. 90% of the time after October that's not gonna happen I'm afraid. But still, neither school appears to be short of students so, despite what DoleBoy believes, I doubt very much whether this particular peice of pertinent info will affect their business in all honesty. Tough cookies if it does anyway.

VFE.

[READY MESSAGE]

I see this thread has diverged totally from the original question but what the heck, I'll give you my opinion - like it or not.

I have had experience of both Multiflight and LFS. I chose to do my IR at LFS. Why? I walked into Multiflight, had to wait a while before someone spoke to me and I was eventually handed a glossy brochure. The place felt cold, regimented with no atmosphere at all. Training was conducted monday to friday 0900 - 1700, no weekends and no evening trips. My initial impression was not good. So I went to visit LFS. I wandered in had a quick chat with one of the instructors who made me a cup of tea, and we discussed all things aviation in the comfort of IKEA furniture. Another chap arrived and introduced himself as Tony, he invited me into pre-flight briefing he was about to give. First impressions were good.

Studying the paperwork from LFS I soon realised that not only were they a couple of hundred quid cheaper than multiflight the LFS course had 10 hours more than Multiflights included in the price. (LFS 25 sim 25 aircraft, Multiflight 35 sim 15 aircraft).

I selected LFS pitched up on day 1 and I only have praise for the excellent training received, primarily from Kevin but also from the occasional trip with Tony and Stuart. Kevins method of teaching is superb, drag it all down to a basic level to save brain power! All the instructors would make themselves available at weekends and evenings if required to get you through.

As for statistics, I and the majority who trained around the same time as me got a partial in our first tests. Why? Because we all made stupid little mistakes that just prevented Exam03 giving us the full pass. It was a 50 hour course and I did it in just a couple over.

As for LFS not offering PPL training anymore, I think you'll find that is something to do with Mr Hood hiking the prices up which make the whole thing impossible for any other school to operate.

I never had a problem with a broken aircraft nor did I have any issues with some of our sorties ending up at Sherburn.

PPRUNE is not the place for personal attacks such as some of those that have been launched on this thread.

KEVIN, STUART and TONY are top chaps. Thankyou for my IR!

[horris]

READY MESSAGE

Thank you four a inspiring post, gald to sea ewe enjoyed the experience.

I sea that Multiflight have not faired well wive you post so this just goes to show that it is horses four corses.

I also notice that instructors past and presrnt have not had much imput into this topic or infact much from either school.

Did an arse appear at airsupply?

[TheDream]

horris

How are you so sure that no instructors have posted?;)

[mad_jock]

The dream

You should know what kev thinks of computers :D

Nae chance

Last time i met JJ he wasjust doing his bumps at ABZ. And I see SH on my base captains full roster print out.

The reason why multiflight don't get a good write up is because they are lacking basic customers skills. The sooner they stick to MCC and dealing with corp heli's and jets the better the world will be for wannabies.

To be honest i don't rate Jon much myself (needs a bloody hair cut for a start) but Kev is a top instructor and tony suits a certain type of student. SA i didn't get on with but who cares I still passed and i now have a job.

MJ

[STATLER]

Don't think thats to fair a comment about Jon, yeah he might need a haircut but he is constantly undermined by Kev, Jons never been given a chance IMO. Kev see's Jon as a threat, in fact Kev sees everyones as a threat.

As for the Mr A comment, I'd be leaving that well alone, there are alot of people out there with a lot of respect for Mr A. I think you'll find yourself in the minority on that one.

[duir]

You know the worst thing about this thread?? After lots and lots of research and visits. I decided that LFS looked like exactly what I wanted. No frills no b****cks just a good solid well established school with an excellent reputation. More importantly if you live in Northern England the options are very limited so LFS being at Leeds was an extra bonus and may save me a fortune in travel etc. But now this stupid bloody thread has sown an horrible seed of doubt into my mind about spending 10s of thousands on an FTO with this much hassle going on. Is this what the thread wanted to happen? Its very unfair to both LFS and particularly wannabees. :*

[TheDream]

I have seen you asking about schools before and I know what its like.

There have been a few developments recently so I suggest you contact Stuart Anderson direct he is da man.

[mad_jock]

All I said was i didn't get on with Stuart. There was no comment at all about his teaching abilitys or flying skills (and i wish I could handle like he can)

Duir don't worry LFS is very good and they do put the effort in to get you through. If I had to do my training again I certainly wouldn't change them for any other FTO for doing my CPL/IR.

MJ

[duir]

Thanks MJ
They are still top of my list. Will just have to go and have another visit to discard any nagging doubts this bloody thread had created!!!!:)
PS does anyone know what has happened to the LFS Website??
Can't seem to access it at the moment

[Jesus H]

duir

Just got straight onto it.

Follow this link http://www.leedsflyingschool.com

Probably just temporarily off line.

JHC

[duir]

Thanks Jesus H!!!

[radarcontrol]

Hi Guys...

I live 10 mins from LBA and assuming I pass my Class 1 in late May I'm hoping to start my PPL training at the airport straight afterwards.

Can someone just confirm that LFS no longer offers JAA PPL training? I cannot reach their website.

If that is so, I am left with multiflight who I have a somewhat tarnished opinion of having read all 5 pages of this thread. Does anyone know if multiflight will allow you to pay for the course bit by bit?

Cheers

RC

[mad_jock]

If you are that close why don't you go and visit them both?
We were discussing the commercial training on this thread not PPL.

I don't have a clue what multiflight are like for PPL.

There are alot of yorkshire pilots in the Private Flying forum who would give you a much better review of PPL training at the airport. As for PPL at LFS I am sure it is the same high standard as the rest of there training.

But LBA is not know for nice wx and there are so many great GA airfields within driving distance of Leeds. Sherburn comes to mind.

Good luck

MJ

[pa28biggles]

radarcontrol,
I did my PPL with Multiflight, though it were over 3 years ago. You can pay bit by bit; thats the way that I paid since I funded my lessons from my part time job. I was happy with the training that I received. I completed my PPL in 52hrs, due to the British weather, and fitting the flying in around my A Levels.
The weather always seems to be worse at Leeds than anywhere else, but there again I have flown out of leeds with 20K vis, whilst on the other side of the pennies at Manchester vis was 5K.... Certainly if Leeds is a much more convenient location for you, do your training there. :ok:
PA28.

[YYZ]

Im amazed at some of the opinions on this thread directed at specific FTOs, people need to know of problems & issues but not personal distain, these people need to make a living when your finished.

I was one of the many dropped by LFS & did feel somewhat put out & I believe it could of been managed much better.

However after spending quite some time at LFS I would say (as would most) that the staff there are always professional & courteous & not one struck me as arrogant.

Whilst doing my PPL it would prove difficult to talk to the FIs at CPL/IR level, as they were often busy with there current students but they were fine when they had the time.

Planes not ready or out of service? Occasionally but who hasn’t?

Free flight time to take the planes for service, If Dillon wants to call me ill do it now, who moans about free flight time, there is not much free in aviation!

You cannot blame anyone for the weather!

Even after reading this thread & being dropped by LFS I still would not discount them as an option later in my training based on MY experience at there FTO.

This site is a chat forum based generally on opinion & some fact all of which needs to be taken with a pinch of salt, people have formed there own opinions so do listen but do not assume everything you read must be correct.

[Flock1]

Dear Radarcontrol,

I did my PPL at LFS, and passed about a year ago. Although I found it annoying that I was going to be seemingly 'dumped' in favour of the University Students, I was proved wrong. My instructor (JF - if he's still there) made sure that I finished off my PPL. He, and LFS is general, pulled out all of the stops to make sure that I passed. And I'd like to thank them again for that.

Reading some of the comments on this thread has made me laugh and feel puzzlement in equal measures. I flew with virtually all of the instructors at LFS at one point or another, and all of them were top notch pilots.

KR made me laugh, and he gave me lots of encouragment after a particulaly low point in my training.
GM was a down-to-earth sort of bloke. He would tell you how it was, and how it could be improved.
JJ was my favourite instuctor (becasue he taught me up to the first solo - but he's with the airlines now. How are you?)
SH annoyed me a bit, but like every other instructor, he was an excellent pilot. For a lot of students, he was their favourite. He had a certain style. He is an airline pilot now. Good luck to him, and if he's reading this, I'm sorry for acting like such a c***t.
JF - He really gives a sh*t about his students. He becomes like a man possessed to get them through the course.
JD - Quiet and assured. Taught me a lot, even though I only ever flew with him for 10 mins.
And DD. Without him manning the desks, I'm sure that LFS would end up in all sorts of knots.

I would recommend LFS to anybody who wants to be taught in a professional manner. Sure, there will be days when there is no aircraft available. And like others have said, the weather leaves a lot to be desired. But if you've got aspirations to become a commercial pilot (which I don't) then LFS would be an excellent choice.

Having said all of that, I know a few pilots who did their PPL with Multiflight, and they swore by them. Check out both schools. See which one tickles your fancy.

[jsf]

Flock1

I think your post is a very fair and honest appraisal of LFS, but then I am slightly biased as you gave me good press. Thanks, the cheque is in the post:)

I think the fact that you had so many instructors at LFS was poor and should have been dealt with better. As I was the last instructor you had, I was happy that your training had not been compromised as a result of this, a fact that most FTO's should also be able to assure because they are required to carry out regular standardisation training with their instructors. It does however P*ss the students off and is not good for that reason alone.

Hope things are going well for you Flock1. Are you still flying with Doctor M? If so send him my best wishes when you see him next.

jsf

[G-LOST]

Gidday Flock.

Business as usual flying the barbiejet. Still loving it!! Hope you are still getting airborne once in a while.

Get Dylan to give you my ph. no for a chat. Email has changed.

LOST.

[Flock1]

Jsf, G-lost,

Nice hearing from you both.

Yes, I am getting airborne once in a while, and Jsf, I do fly with Dr M every now and again. I tell him you said hello!

G-lost, glad you're still enjoying the jets, but I bet you miss the old C-152's deep down! Out of interest, have you been in one since you moved up in the world?

I'll get your number from DD, and we'll have a chat.

Flock

[ubriaco fradicio]

Well I did my CPL/ IR there a couple of years ago. I got a first time pass in my IR.

On the whole it was a pretty good experience, i did have a couple of problems but they're not worth going into here.

I found the people there pleasant, some instructors were better than others, but thats life.

Within a couple of months I managed to a job flying something fast and shinny in the midlands, so it worked out for me.