Answer to this dilemma?

[smallpilot]

here's the Dilemma.....
Me (PPL) has club a/c booked from 14.30 for a landaway (45mins each way + a coffee) on a weekend afternoon, so should have enough time to do the trip + return to base before nightfall....
I arrive at the club at 13.30 (time for a coke + plan our route etc) only to be told "a/c running late because earlier trial lesson turned up late, another t/l no-show, instructor + student running late etc and backlog has built up etc." Aircraft is finally available well after 15.00 - No criticism of instructor as he was very apologetic about the situation and at least had the foresight to fuel it up before the previous sortie. Landaway has to be scrapped in favour of a local jolly due to the time. This is a fairly common occurrence at many clubs I'm sure.
My dilemma....
Club policy is no shows (students, t/l's etc) are charged a no-show fee, a policy I fully agree with.
So the late running of the a/c means my booking is running about an hour late and my original intended sortie has to be curtailed - my non flying friend who gave up his afternoon specially was promised a trip somewhere is left feeling disappointed and I feel as though I let him down and the club let me down...
I'm a regular hirer, 3 or 4 hours a month, most weekend if poss. So if the club charges no-shows, late-comers a penalty, what about some form of rebate for people who have had to delay their plans as a result?
After all if you have a meeting with your bank manager at 14.00 you dont expect to turn up at 15.00 and be seen right away!
anyone care to comment?

[orionsbelt]

No-shows and late cancellations are a real pain in the butt
even more so for the Instructor who is not paid as the trip was not flown.
Late arrivals, no shows, last minute cancellations screw up the flying programs every weekend and its allways the same people!!!

[Airbedane]

Timing is critical in aviation, especially if it is to RV or deconflict. Get it wrong and the ultimate price could be paid!

Those who show consistently poor timekeeping should be penalised in order to make the point.

Put it to your Club, Smallpilot, suggest they penalise the latecomers and give appropriate discount or payment in lieu to those effected. If they're not symapathetic to your argument, explain that you are a regular customer and should be so rewarded. Depending on how strong you feel on the point, you could also (threaten to) take your custom elsewhere.

Good Luck!

[BEagle]

It could be that the Club is trying to squeeze unrealistically high levels of utilisation out of the ac? Hence any knock-on effect of Wx, student, ac delays invariably pushes everything to the right?

That said, there are really only 2 choices. Charge lower prices, maximise utilisation and explain the consequences - or charge higher prices and use a plan which has a lower utilisation rate but which is more easily capable of recovering from earlier delays.

We have now gone for 4 x 2 hour periods (0930-1730). If someone has booked an aeroplane for a particular period, they must arrive in sufficient time to be able to walk out at the beginning of the period and the next pilot should be able to do the same thing at the beginning of the next period. But if it's a 1 hour dual circuit session, the 2 hr window gives the FI a reasonable amount of time to brief and debrief rather than just trying to cram in the hours as used to be the case....

When booking, if you require the aeroplane for a specific time, make it a condition of hire. If you are let down, you should certainly be compensated in some way. Unfortunately it seems that so-called 'trial lessons' which are little more than joy-rides are seen by many as a convenient revenue source. Hardly any briefing to do, fixed (high!) price, FI does most of the flying.... Hence they're probably only too happy to cram in an extra one rather than have your ac sitting on the ground elsewhere whilst you're enjoying your coffee....

I too get very annoyed at pilots who arrive 10 minutes before the start of their slot, then faff about, take-off late and get back even later. Unless it's for safety of flight causes, such behaviour should not be accepted. I had one who swanned in at the start of his slot - the aerodrome was due to close for an hour in 15 minutes' time. So he was told that he had to get airborne before the closure or go away as the next pilot was due in 30 minutes and would be taking the ac on time. He made it - but only just!

[Whirlybird]

BEagle is right about the unrealistically high levels of utilisation at some schools. Many try to fit in an hour's lesson per hour and a half slot...and it means everyone is rushed. I now work at one of these. The slightest little thing - a late start due in the morning due to traffic hold-ups, a student who needs to learn the "A" check taking a long time doing it, a slightly long briefing, ATC delays...and you're running behind without being able to make it up. I refuse to shortchange my students to make sure we run on time!!! I've complained about it, and been told there's no reason why it shouldn't work! :( One hour in two usually works, but only if people arrive on time etc.

smallpilot, the only solution I know of is to buy a share in an aircraft; then you can book it for the day with no hassles. It'll cost you less in the long run too. Hiring usually doesn't work for anyone who wants to do more than the odd local flight. If you can't do that, book your slots early rather than late. You're more likely to get them on time, and if not, YOU can be the one arriving back late (having had the time you booked). :ok:

[homeguard]

At my school I have put into operation an alternating 1.5hr and 2hr slot starting with the two hour slot at 9.00hrs.

30min T/f are booked within the shorter slot allowing for a full briefing and flight. All our T/f are treated as a lesson and the recipients are therefore encouraged to experience 'hands on' the largest part of the airborne flying time. We book 60min T/F to a 2.0hr slot and also double book 2.0hr slots with 2x30min T/Fts., briefing both flights together.

Generally we are finding that the system is working well.

Turning up just in time, running late and waffling about is every ones nightmare whatever business your in. If anyone finds an answer that dosn't wind up the stmosphere and half your business in stroke, let me Know.

[Mr Magoo]

There's a fairly simple answer, if you're flying 3 or four hours a month in club aircraft at probably £90+ per hour, you'd be better off getting a share in a group owned plane. My aircraft costs are: £5.5 K for 1/4 share in an AA5, £70 per month standing charge, (based at expensive airfield in southeast,) and £50 per hour AIRBORNE not tacho or brakes/brakes like clubs charge. Do the sums and you'll see it makes sense - also the 'planes available 24/7 with no late running students to spoil your £100 cup of coffee sortie!

:ok:

[homeguard]

Lot's of people have done their sums and others have parted with their money.

Most group owners would not share the claim that owning a share in an aircraft is cheap flying. Some pretty creative accounting goes on to convince each other that it is though!

Flying clubs offer excellent value in the main and provide a good service for not always that much in return.

[Say again s l o w l y]

It's a difficult one this. Having been stood up by many students, it is absolutely-mind-bogglingly frustrating, especially for a double slot on a saturday morning.

The excuses have been laughable, the worst was when I rang a particular stude, only to be told that his wife wouldn't wake him as he had been out on the town last night and had got in at 4 O'clock steaming drunk. I hit the roof.

We have never had a policy of charging for no-shows since I would feel uncomfortable about not giving refunds if the a/c was unavailable. So in the interests of fairness we made the decision not to charge.

We will have a word with any transgressors about not turning up and if they continue, then we simply ban them from the school. This has only happened once to my knowledge. (The chap who's wife wouldn't wake him and that was because it happened on a large number of occasions.) If they turn up late, then they simply get a shorter lesson so as not to push the program out and inconvienence everybody else.

Most places will bend over backwards to try and get you flying if possible, but it can sometimes be beyond our control. In that case I'm afraid you'll just have to lump it unfortunately. It's not the best result for either side really.

[Whirlybird]

it's true that having a share in an aircraft doesn't always work out cheaper than hiring - though it can. But it's still worth it for the availability. It means you can book an aircraft for a day, a wekk, take it away, know it will be there when you want it. That, to me and many others, is worth the extra cost.

[homeguard]

I know of many groups which are ran well, many are not and availabilty is ad hoc..

Some share holders are fortunate that the other members hardly ever fly. The aircraft therefore is available whenever it is wanted. But if the group is active, which is the only way costs are kept reasonable, bookings can be just as hard to obtain at short notice as club aircraft may be.

Sure, if your a shareholder book the aircraft for a week or fortnight and off you go without paying for minimum hours of daily rental. However, when this is the case the other shareholders are sans an aeroplane to fly.

Share holding in a busy group will be cheaper but no more accessible than club aircraft. In a group of not frequent flyers then the aircraft is waiting for you but at a cost. In these not so busy groups getting the non flyers to pay up for maintenance or for the FM immune radio can be a nightmare.

[Mr Magoo]

Hey - Homeguard, sounds like you're a club owner trying to keep his hire business going mate! ;)

There are many more upsides to group ownership than the downs, of course there's caveat emptor but that's the case in anything you do. Personally I'd take my aeroplane that has a known maintainence history, no previous hirers doing stupid things with it and a decent avionics fit anyday. If you prefer paying club membership, turning up at your booked time and waiting hours for a late running 'plane, (then having to be back within a couple of hours because it's a sunny saturday), hiring tired old two seat trainers held together with gaffa tape and having the faint smell of sick all for £90+ per hour tacho - well - enjoy.

As for me, well I don't mind instructing in club aircraft, but I'll stick to my own aircraft when it comes to flying for fun.

:ok:

Magoo

[homeguard]

Mr Magoo, I am one of those!

Don't recognise your description of what is on hire from me though. Where do you instruct? Is it that bad. Don't tell me, I don't want to know.

Glad it's working out for you.

[Send Clowns]

Not sure how others run the trial lessons, BEagle, but I am left to decide for myself and choose to let the student fly nearly all the flight, unless there is a passenger feeling ill (I can fly more smoothly and in balance, most of the time :D ). As well as enjoying the trip I want my students to feel they have been the pilot. Not only are they more likely to come back or send us other business, but they feel more positive towards aviation, feelings we all rely on in these times of complaints and campaigning. Anyway, this means that although the brief is shorter and simpler the actual flight is much harder work for me! I always feel tired after a whole day of trial lessons.

Neither of the clubs that I work for fit Mr Magoo's suggestion of poor maintenance, late flights, smells of vomit or knackered old aircraft either! They are the only two clubs down here, and I have never done any club flying in the UK so I have little to compare them with and perhaps we are unusual.

I'm beginning to feel rather lucky, as the bosses complain if the reception staff (some of whom are just young lads who are working to fly) accidentally book a lesson in a slot less than an hour longer than the flight, unless it is a trial lesson which is in a slot "time plus half an hour" as the brief is shorter.

[Mr Magoo]

Just a slight hint of tongue in cheek about the state of club aircraft!, (mind you I have seen some with gaffa tape holding the nasty cracked plastic Cessna interiors together in the past and "inop" - usually in ancient Dymo label - stuck across half the avionics fit)
:eek:

[Send Clowns]

Oh, I've seen worse than that in the US, Mr Magoo! Just not over in this country. Probably happens somewhere, there are always the less reputable establishments :hmm:

[FJJP]

The club should make a rule - turn up one hour before t/o. If you're late you get bumped to a later slot. If you are there earlier than you need to be, you may just get an earlier slot. But it depends on just how gash your club attitude is...

[smallpilot]

Thanks for all the comments + opinions, its been an interesting debate.