Are Pilots responsible (Financially) ????

[Downhill Runner]

Dear Readers ..... Especially our German friends,,,

Recently and incident occurred at a German airport, where an aircraft (D-registered) flying a scheduled service for a German carrier.

There were no injuries at all, and minor damage to the aircraft and two or three runway end lights …..

The company (Owner) wants the crew to foot the bill for insurance expenses …. They (Crew) have been advised that it is German law that the crew is responsible for any damages …..

The crew had never been made aware of this law, whether German or the company’s own law …..

I have advised the crew to not even think about paying a cent!!!! This is utter Bull****, and has far reaching consequences for those professional pilots working in Germany.

Is it really law???? Can someone in Germany please let us know ….

[fernytickles]

I don't have any legal background to offer advice, but what a horrific precedent.

Imagine the worst case scenario, large aircraft accident through pilot error, all are killed, including the crew. Such a law could be used to force the crews' family to pay up. Suddenly there will be no pilots to fly the planes as they cannot afford the risk to their families.

That sounds like a crazy law, it would be interesting to hear more from those with legal backgrounds commenting on it.

[Downhill Runner]

Total amount being from the Crew is Euro 40,000.....

To cover insurance excess they say ....

If crew was at fault,,, is it not the job of the Authorities to take action ??

Is this another EU / JAA law ?? :{

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total amount of Euro40,000 is being asked from the crew

[mattpilot]

if they claim its a law, i'm sure they can back it up with a paragraph citation, no?

Ask for it.

[Bealzebub]

Bit of a strange question. I would have thought that in any country if you cause damage to anybody or their property then of course you are responsible for it. Naturally the owner of that property or the injured person (or their estate ) can claim against you. I don't think it much matters if you are a Pilot, or a car driver or anyone else the principle must still apply.

If you have insurance to cover such damage or loss then great. Normally ( and usually it is the law) an employer would carry insurance to cover the losses that might be caused by their employees and it is not usual for employers to recover any uncovered losses from their employees, although I suppose there is no reason why they cannot in certain circumstances.

If you break it you are responsible and it would be a good idea to ensure you have, or your employer has, adequate insurance to cover the potential loss.

fernytickles. the scenario you forward is not unusual. Crew error may well be cited as the cause of a loss. However in such circumstances the employers insurance policy would be the normal port of call. The reason being, that is where any satisfaction is likely to result from. "The crews family" are not likely to be responsible for any loss and as such couldn't normally be held liable. The crewmember on the other hand might, but the difficulties involved with achieveing satisfaction of the loss would usually be impossible. How many times have you ever heard of a major airline accident where the Pilots were responsible and made to satisfy the financial claims that resulted ? Probably never. Such actions are very lengthy and very expensive. The insurers entered into a financial contract to cover such risk, and it is to them that the claimants will normally seek redress. The option to pursue the crew always exists but in any meaningful way such a course of action , even if successful, would normally be a pyrrhic victory in most circumstances.

Must be more to this because it would seem in keeping with common law in most countries ?

[Downhill Runner]

Thanks Bealzebub,

However crew were employed as Freelance pilots ......

Freelance contract / agreement made no mention of "in the event of ......... you will be responsible"

moreover they (company) advised that there was no need to mention this fact because it is comman paractice / law in Germany ....

Ok from my understanding the insurance has paid for damages already .... it is the company who want to persue the matter with the crew ....

We are talking about a major German company here !! not the usual 1 or 2 aircraft company which may be having financial difficulties which would drive them to this course of action towards their crew.

In all the years that I've been around aviation, I have been under the impression that an incident/accident investigation is arranged by the Authory and it is they who determine the course of action if any against the crew, company or whoever.

The insurance company then comes through to cover damages to third parties, crew members , property and so on.

I or no other Pilot which I know have ever been approached, warned, told, advised etc etc etc. that you are at risk of being sue by your employers for any damages or loss of business you cause them.

I know of Loss of License insurance, what is the name of this type of insurance which Pilots must take now???? and where do they advertise all this ????

[fernytickles]

Downhill Runner

Are you or your friends members of a trade union? Or do you have access to one. I think a TU would be able to give you the most accurate advice in this case. No offence to anyone posting on here, but isn't that what TUs are for?

[Bealzebub]

Downhill runner,

You are welcome. As this is a Professional pilots forum I was only giving my opinion based on common law in the broadest sense. I would urge the crew concerned in this matter to obtain legal advice from a lawyer qualified to advise on such matters.

If I was employed as a freelance plumber I would expect to have insurance to cover my risk exposure. I think the same would be true if I was a freelance taxi driver. I cannot see why it would be any different as a freelance pilot.

I am afraid it doesn't usually matter what a contract doesn't say, only what it does say. I dont suppose they do need to mention the fact that they may sue you for damages if you cause them loss if that is their right. I have to admit I don't make such a stipulation on the contracts I enter into but it is still normally my right. This probably highlights the wisdom of running a freelance employment contract or agreement through a lawyer before signing it. Unfortunetaly (or perhaps not) it is everybodies right to claim for a loss they have sufferered if they so choose. It is not normally necessary to advise every individual that such a right exists.

I am not sure what happens in Germany but if it is similar to the situation in the UK, then accidents or serious incidents are investigated by The Air Accidents Investigation Branch ( of the Department for Transport). It is not their practice to apportion blame or determine the action or sanctions that might be applied to the crew. Any safety recommendations are passed on to the Civil Aviation Authority, who might in some circumstances apply sanctions within their own remit. When it comes to a question of civil damages then that is a matter for the parties directly concerned including possibly their insurers and possibly the civil courts if the matter becomes an unresolved dispute.