How Come ?

[Big Pistons Forever]

How come instructors don't ever seem to teach the standard airline system for the use of aircraft lights on the ground.

That is

1. Red Beacon/ nav lights on prior to engine start

2. wing/tail white strobes on as the airplane taxi's on to runway

3. Landing/recog lights on when Take off clearance recieved.

[FlyingForFun]

Possibly because they are not teaching on airliners? I'm sure if they were teaching on airlines, they would teach airline techniques!

Personally, I was taught:

1. Red Beacon on prior to engine start (as long as you have them, of course - some of the aircraft I fly don't). Nav lights only at night.

2. Wing/tail white strobes on as the airplane taxi's on to runway - again, as long as you have them.

3. Landing lights, except at night, I wasn't taught to use as the norm. I watched my instructor use common sense to switch them on in a very busy circuit, and I try to use the same common sense myself - use them when they will help. For my CPL, I was taught to use the landing lights for every take-off and landing.

Also, there are plenty of aircraft out there whose generators/alternators can't supply enough power to keep all of those lights going all the time, so if you are spending time in the circuit, you'll end up with a flat battery if you have everything going. The airline way of doing things is not the only way of doing things, and to teach it as if it is the only way is, IM(V)HO, no better than to not teach it at all.

FFF
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[Say again s l o w l y]

As FFF has said different a/c and situations require different procedures.
It is better to teach somebody to think about why they are using certain bits of kit and when it is appropriate, for example on a bright summers day is anybody going to see Nav lights? No, so what's the point of having them on. On a very dull day or at night, of course put them on, but don't just blindly follow instrctions without thought as to why. That works fine in an airline environment, but a few steps down the food chain it might not be sensible.

Different horses, different courses

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Turning on nav. lights in broad daylight is detremintal to safety, because when some poor bas.ard wants to fly the thing at night the lights may be burnt out.

I never could understand the stupidity of acting like sheep and turning on lights in bright sunlight that requires you to put your hand over the light to see if it is really on. Nav lights are for flying in reduced ambient light conditions...such as at night.

SOP's work just fine in the airline enviorement due to the simple fact that there must be conformity between crews or there would be chaos in some cockpits.

I remember getting in a Twin Otter one day in Vancouver making a connecting flight to get back to Vancouver Island... I was sitting right behind the cockpit door and watched the crew go through their SOP to get the beast woke up and mobile enough to fly the 32 miles to Nanaimo.

Every fu.king switch that was within reach was selected to the on position including landing lights and the pitot heat...remember the thing is still parked safely on the ramp in front of the terminal buliding....

When we landed in Nanaimo I asked the left seat monkey why he turned on the pitot heat on the ramp on a hot summer day..it was about 30 degrees C.

His answer was that is SOP's for our company and the chief pilot demands we conform to SOP's..

I rest my case. :ok:

Chuck

[Big Pistons Forever]

Guys

1. re Nav lights. I assumed that the / between beacon and nav light would be interepreted as "and or". Because at night both the Nav lights as well as the beacon should be on prior to start. During the day just the beacon would be appropriate. I guess I should have been more specific, mea culpla.

2. The contention that a small aircraft electrical sytem cannot handle the use of lights on the ground is IMO total crap. I use the exact same sytem on my personal airplane ( a Grumman American AA1B) as I do on my working ride ,( a CONVAIR 580 ). The only high draw item is the landing light and that is not an issue as turning them on is the last item before added full power in which case there will be plenty of juice. The reason for turning the landing light on is that it is a double acknolgement to ATC and other aircraft that you are about to take off and as a secondary benefit makes you more visible for aircraft joining the circuit. In my case it saved my bacon when at a uncontrolled aircraft an aircraft with a poor radio was lined up on final for the reciprical runway. He saw me when I turned on my light. I did not see him untill he started to turn away. ( He had no lights on BTW )

3. I do not agree with the contention that the standard use of light is just for airliners. I see no reason why students cannot be taught and apply what is a virtually the universal world airline/ large aircraft SOP. Why would it be wrong to teach good airmanship at the beginning? While we are on the subject of good airmanship, why do the majority of light plane pilots have no idea of light discipline when taxing at night , particularly when to use white strobes and taxi lights ?:*

[Chuck Ellsworth]

B.P.F. :

Now that you have clarified the Nav light thingie I must agree with all the rest of your thoughts on this subject...

It is all just plain simple logical safety items and practices......

However we must use some thought process also, for instance some years ago I was about to take off from a logging road on the North West side of Vancouver Island in a Navajo that was owned by the logging company that made the logging road / landing strip. Just as I was about to add power to get the show under way the regular company pilot said to me " turn on the landing lights " ....( I was just part timing as a fill in. )

I said what for?

He said for safety.

I said why whould that make it safer?

He said for other airplanes to see............

Hell there was about as much chance of another airplane being within fifty miles of us as the chance of being hit by a meteroite.

So some common sense has to be used.

It is easier to agree with you now that I know you are smart enough to own a Grumman. :ok:

Chuck.

[Say again s l o w l y]

As Chuck says, it's all about the application of common sense.

Most light a/c are just as visible with the landing light on or off, when you spot another machine during the day, what do you see? The silouette, which is dark. Why else are the RAF painting their high viz a/c black rather than day glo?

I must take issue with your assertationWhy would it be wrong to teach good airmanship at the beginning? That is exactly what we teach. Think about your actions before you blindly follow orders, there are times that certain things are not appropriate.

In areas of busy traffic or poor viz then of course you should turn your lights on, but on a gin clear and sunny day in the middle of nowhere.........

Certainly in day time VFR in the UK we don't have to have all the light serviceable, so often when a light blows it is left until the next check. Would you then advocate turning the switch on just because you are supposed to?

[pilotbear]

I agree with BPF, and that is what I teach whether PPL, CPL, MULTI, IR. I would say it is not whether you are in an airliner or not, I associate the actions with being on the taxiway/runway whatever.
The statement regarding nav lights that I use is 'consider use of nav lights' so that they are not forgotton.
If you ignore these standards then you get the idiot students when they are on their own or often with instructors, particularly at C******ld, shining their landing lights at you from the hold when you are on final at night ahead of a long line of flashing strobes. just what you need if the vis is a bit misty. :hmm:

[Big Pistons Forever]

I approached this forum as a vehicle to share ideas/ methods/opinions on instructing, therefore I think what is appropriate actions for a gazillion hour charter pilot is essentially not relavent. Of course you would expect experienced pilots to vary their actions to fit the circumstances however I think it is important to point out that new pilots do not have that experience and the habits developed over many hours of flying. With that in mind I think it is important to inculcate good habits in students. One way of doing this is by starting out insisting that a pattern of SOP's always be followed. Later in life you will get to the point , for example, of deciding as you line up " today use of the landing light is not appropriate " . However if you do not start
insisting on its use, my experience is many pilots don't even think about it. The most unfortunate part of this whole debate IMO is my experience that many instructors I have met don't even know what the SOP is for transport category aircraft ground light use is, and have no idea of the reasons why the protocol was developed, so how can they be expected to develop any critical thinking in ther students on this issue. That IMO goes to the heart of the issue of a overall decline in demonstrated airmanship skills I feel I have observed in the last 10 years or so.

[ROB-x38]

I was taught exactly as you descride BPF. Beacon before engine start (if applicable), strobes on the active and landing light with clearance. This is out of a busy airport though.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

B.PF. :

I have noticed a decline in pilot skills in multi engine airplanes for a hell of a lot longer than ten years.

I would like to praise your attention to detail and enforcing vital actions in your students....

I also would like to publically praise your sharing of that gear up problem that you had during your instructing period, it takes real integrity to share such experiences.

We all have our pet theorys and ideas about flight training, however there has to be set standards and methods to inforce the needed skills in students. SOP.s were constructed and put in place to insure a high level of safety.

Chuck

[FlyingForFun]

The contention that a small aircraft electrical sytem cannot handle the use of lights on the ground is IMO total crapSorry, BPF, but it's not crap at all. I have at least two aircraft in my logbook whose ammeters will show a discharge if flown with lighting as you suggest, even at full power. I will not fly an aircraft deliberately in such a way that it flattens the battery. In these two particular aircraft, I will not allow the battery to discharge if I'm staying in the circuit.

If I'm taking off and departing, and then coming back for one landing, that's different of course, because there will be plenty of time for the battery to charge en-route. And for the majority of aircraft which can handle the load, your "SOPs" seem extremely sensible.

FFF
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[RodgerF]

FFF

I presume the aircraft you are referring to is not operating on a C of A. I am reasonably certain that as part of certification the alternator system must be capable of handling the maximum load that can be applied to the bus(es). If Beagle is about perhaps he could comment.

R

[FlyingForFun]

Rodger,

One of the two aircraft was on a Public CofA - a PA18 which was used for training and private hire. Fitted with the original generator, which wasn't capable of handling all of the lights, along with the radio which was added somewhere way-back-when.

The other aircraft is a PFA aircraft.

Would be interesting to hear if there is any legislation which would make this PA18 illegal. But, even if there is such legislation, I still stick by what I've said so far - there are aircraft out there (even if, according to the law, they will all be PFA aircraft) where BPF's SOPs are not appropriate. By all means teach them as a standard way of doing things, but not as the only way.

FFF
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[Say again s l o w l y]

Rodger, that would mean that most 152's with any decent nav kit on board and everything else on shouldn't be allowed on a CofA!:rolleyes:

[Big Pistons Forever]

Gents

I have different 52 types in my logbook. 51 could be operated as I described the other one required the landing light to be kept off for multiple circuits as the generator would not keep up. Therefore
I still feel that in almost all aircraft training scenarios the internationally accepted SOP for lights should be used. I have over 1000 hours instructing in at least 20 different examples of C-150/C-152 and I have never met one that had any problem with insufficent electrical power on the ground or in the air.

I think my point remains valid. If I go out to my home field ( a regional airport with a 3 runways , a control tower , 3 flight schools and a fair amount of commuter/low cost airline operations ) I see a huge variation in how aircraft ground lighting is used with many examples of poor or incorrect usage. This leads me to believe that there is a systemic problem with how these pilots are being taught and that is a direct reflection on the knowledge /skill levels of their instructors.

On a different note. On my first flight with new ( licensed ) students I ask at the beginning of the flight if they regularly scan the engine guages in flight . They invariable say " of course ! ". At some point in the flight I then cover the engine guages with my hand and ask the student what they were reading. Every single time to date, I just get a blank stare in response to the question. I then explain If they don't know where the needles were sitting they have not really been scanning anything. I then explain the importance of scanning the engine guages and mentally noting their normal ranges, so that hopefully they will spot trouble in time to avert a problem. Again I have to ask myself why didn't their PPL instructor beat this point into them,
It could save their life one day .

[Say again s l o w l y]

BPF, I have to agree with you about the general standard of airmanship in regard to light useage. People's scans are a just as worrying a problem. One of my "things" is to pull the flap motor CB and see what happens, invariably it isn't noticed! That unfortunately shows the level of awareness of some pilots that share the same airspace with us. :mad:

[M.85]

GUys,

Strobes at night during taxi..if you are alone ..suit yourself..if theres anyone else around turn them off!if they dont see you with the beacon and taxi and other lights,they wont see you with strobes..
If its foggy dont put them on..
At night when you turn towards ground personel evn for a second turn your taxi light off and then back on.
If you hold short of a runway opposit to another guy and its dark or even in the early morning..switch you r taxi light off!

Many times i had this problem..when you are grumpy in a very early morning and a guy comes along with a 757 in front of you with all his lights on ..its not pleasant.
If that happens FLASH THEM your landing lights and you will see HOW QUICK the Captain tells his FO to turn his off....

Now i feel better ..maybe more people will think about it..its all about good airmanship..

:ok:


Safe Flying,

M.85

[ROB-x38]

Our lighting procedures for night flying:

- beacon and nav lights turned on before engine start

- after 'clear prop' call a couple of flashes of the strobes before engine start

- taxi light on before commencing taxi

- strobes on the active

- taxi light off, landing light on with takeoff clearance

- any white lights off in vicinity of other aircraft (airmanship)

[JABI]

Unfortunately it takes a little bit of initiative and common sense.
Lights on within 10nm of an airport and below cloud deck.
Even on a good day a plane on final without landing light is a lot harder to see:8
Or is it me getting older.
God bless Cirrus for their 5000 candela 5000hr (very) bright landing light.
Unbelievable that some FTO's advocate against the use of landing light.:mad:

[READY MESSAGE]

Simple - use the checklist in light a/c.
That tells you which lights to stick on and when.

Use SOPs in big a/c.
They tell you which lights to stick on and when.

[Big Pistons Forever]

I have found most light aircraft POH, particularly the ones issued before the GAMA standard format, are virtualy useless once you get past the " Congratulations you are now the proud new owner of a ( insert aircraft name here ) ". I certainly have yet to see one that had good checklists. :*

[freefallfun]

For my PPL my instructor alway had me put the landing light on as I set up to enter the pattern. Why would you not want to make yourself as noticable to others?

And when I returned to the UK with my new PPL for a PPL hire check out I got a roasting of an instructor for using the landing light as it "wears it out, cost money to replace and should only be used in low visability conditions"

Me - if I want to be seen, I stick the light on. Simple.

FreeFallFun :ok:

[flyby_kiwi]

It would appear there is no right or wrong way.

How I/we do it: In daytime ops. we have beacon and strobes on prior to starting - On a busy apron in the light of day we find a beacon and/or nav's arn't obvious enough especially with some a/c parked 3 or 4 deep on the apron. At the holding point - All remaining lights on (Landing/Taxi/Nav) where they stay on for the whole flight as the local training and circuit gets quite busy too.

At night we never use landing/taxi out of consideration for others.

[M.85]

checklists..mmmhh...
When I get into a plane as pax,i always take a window seat to enjoy the view but the last time i did that was on a Easy one.
The AC went IMC and the strobes were still on...thought they were busy zipping their coffee or reading but they remained on until touch down(lasted about 15 minutes)
Maybe some guys are still flying with their Ray Ban on up there ...
It made ME dizzy as i kept looking outside wondering when they would turn them off..


M.85

[BigEndBob]

On big aircraft wing strobes probably can't be seen from cockpit or there effect from cloud.
Interestingly arrived this morn on BA flight from NY. Wing strobes on until nearly at gate, standard sop or just forgotten? Me think they were left on until all the runways were crossed.
I always wanted to see the anticollision lights ( which are mainly totally useless other than at night) wired through master via pullable cb, on when master on (useful as i have seen the master left on several times with anti coll flashing, a/c unattended). Personally i would like to see wing strobes on during day whilst taxying. they aren't that bright, but bright enough for the flourescent jacket brigade to avoid walking into a/c. At night use common sense.
Nav light bulbs seem to last forever, usually corrosion around contacts sees them off (because they are never replaced).
Better still replace all the anti coll./strobes with one of the military HISL, about the only light i've seen during daylight.

[M.85]

necessary to put lights during daylight??
Hmmm a part from the red beacon one which tells people on the ground the engines are about to be started /are running..i dont see the use..maybe a flash of the taxi to the ground marshall to tell him you ready to get movin'...
If you cant spot the plane you wont see his lights:E :p :p :=

M:85

im rather certain that pilots see the strobes effect in a 737/a320.