Long haul vs short haul - from mil pilot

[allthegear]

I am in my last 1.5 yrs flying fast jets in the RAF, and the time has come to consider the wonderful world of work outside of the military. I would be interested to hear any words of wisdom on the pros and cons of long vs short haul flying, an idea of work schedules etc. Any feedback would be welcome.

[beamer]

1. Get timing of your exit right - it can make the difference not only whether or not you get the job you want but if you can get a job at all.

2. Days of quick commands are fading rapidly although things do change very quickly.

3. I am ex-mil and have flown both short and long haul - I now fly both which is a reasonable mixture ! Short haul sectors are actually more fun (all is relative) as you get more handling of the aircraft and gain experience far more rapidly. Log-haul can be extremely boring but has the benefit of nightstops in nice places from time to time - actually, stops can be for several days depending upon your carrier.

4. Don't believe those who tell you that long-haul is a breeze - 'I only go to work three times a month' - if you fly Japan/HK one week and LA the next your body clock is shagged and your initial days off at home are a mess.

5. Work out clearly in your own mind if you really want a civilian career - many just fall into the civil world and wonder why they bothered ! Once you choose to do so, remember that you do not want to change companies every five minutes - in most outfits seniority is everything and the sooner you climb the ladder the better.

6. The halcyon days of BOAC/BEA are long gone - just as in RAF/RN, budgets are all important - cost-cutting everywhere - more work for less reward.

7. Beware some antagonism towards military pilots - varies from company to company - not a great problem however.

8. Try and start your new career with a blank sheet of paper - nothing worse than ' When I was on Tornadoes/Herks/Harriers/CF0'S etc...................

9. If you are married or have partner - check with he/she what they want you to do - amazing how many keep schtum as to their real feelings.

10. Have a beer with mates who have already made the jump and ask them what it is REALLY like.

good luck

[Maxrev]

One old wise chap once said to me when I asked him just the same thing...'well short haul or long haul...mmm...do you prefer ulcers or piles?'

Go figure....:cool:

[allthegear]

Thanks for the replies. I am a little reticent to commit to lots of time away from home, which I guess would be the case on long haul. My present job sees me away for 4-6 months a year, not in the most exotic spots around the world!

Any comments on the average time spent away on long haul, or does it vary from company to company? How about the typical roster for a new-boy on short haul? In an ideal world I would prefer not to relocate, being about an hour from both Stanstead and Luton and around 1.5 hrs from Heathrow, any thoughts from you guys and girls out there doing the job?

Maxrev - wise advice! I found last year that 6 hours over Iraq at night gives you both !:ooh:

[Caractacus]

allthegear, I sympathise with your dilemma. I left the RAF in 1989 and didn't want a career in an Hotel yet wanted to fly. I have worked for a few airlines. Sometimes the lifestyle has been OK. More often than not is has been beset with problems.

Rather than focussing on either long or short haul I think you need to look at the company culture and roster patterns. Long haul can be fairly relaxed with the right airline. Equally short haul can be fun if you are working to the legal limit all of the time.

The problem is that most airlines will push you very hard these days. A few manage this situation well. Most do not. It is no good going for the roster pattern you want only to find that the damn airline can't manage a p*ss up in a brewery and the roster changes all the time . . . I would suggest you network through your mates and closely question them about how they actually feel about their lifestyle. Remember, pilots love to tell you they have got a better deal than the next guy. They are apt to conceal something they really don't like.

The other point is that it is your own reaction to the schedules that matters. You may find early flights half kill you yet you can sleep anytime on long haul. You have to find that out.

Given your location I think your best bet is Britannia at Luton - if you can get in. Yes, they do night charter flights. However, the word on the street is that they roster the flights well and that makes all the difference.

If you are thinking of low cost then you must read the Pprune threads on easyJet.

Good luck and remember Fate is the Hunter.

[beamer]

To be a little more specific upon my previous post.

1. LOW COST - Culture of five/six day blocks followed by 2-3 days off. Consecutive early starts or late finishes.

2. CHARTER - Varied patterns but much night flying in the summer and increasing amounts of work in the 'quiet' winter season as managment realise they can employ less pilots by wet leasing foreign crews and aircraft in the summer.

3. SCHEDULED MAJORS - Less frenetic than low-cost and less night flying on short haul but VERY long time to command. Long-haul by definition will see less handling, more night flying etc.

4. CORPORATE - Unpredictable to say the least but IF you find the right slot - very rewarding.

SO WHO'S GOOD AND WHO'S BAD - very contentious but by REPUTATION only.......

BA over VIRGIN
EMIRATES over CATHAY
EASYJET over RYANAIR
BRITANNIA or MONARCH over AIR 2000 or JMC

Give MY TRAVEL a few months to sort themselves out one way or another.

please note that these ideas are purely based on mates who fly for these operators - reality may be different !!!!!!!!!!!

Final thought - an old saying 'never move for an airline' and if you are in quarters, then move to an apprptiate area that gives you multi-airport options.

[allthegear]

Thanks all for the info. I've read the Easyjet vs Ryanair thread - any companies that creates such strong debate have some issues I feel. The picture is starting to become clearer thanks to your help, though I am still a little in the dark on some issues. I now have a feeling for typical short haul rostering (very company-dependant I now know). I am still curious on the long haul work cycle, any good gen out there?

A general feeling for the companies out there is very useful, and although everything is subjective it is invaluable info to have. The prospect of a career change as a thirty-something is exciting, though a little daunting hence the appreciation of your views on what it's all really like out there!

How easy is it to change long to short haul if you are working for a company like BA, and do you get a choice to base out of a regional airport?

Keep on sending any views, good or bad, safe in the knowledge that any time spent is much appreciated.

[scroggs]

Comparing airlines from the point of view of a potential employee is fraught with difficulties! Unless you have access to all the terms and conditions of those airlines, it's not easy to tell whether you are comparing apples with apples or not.

As an example: I work for Virgin Atlantic, which flies only longhaul. There is no other scheduled passenger airline in UK which does that; comparisons with BA are therefore more complicated than at first sight. You may decide that BA longhaul is the way forward for you, and then discover, after you've jumped through all their hoops and been accepted, that a short-haul job out of a regional airport is what they had in mind for you all along...

Important things to find out, for instance, are scheduling agreements: how many hours a year/month/day are you expected to work, and are there any hidden traps in the working schedules (eg consecutive 'lates' running into a rest period, followed by conscutive 'earlies') . How long away from home is the average trip. What are the minimum rest times after a trip. How many days off at home are guaranteed, and in what chunks. What are the leave arrangements, and can you expect to get leave when you need it (school holidays etc?). Is the money good, or at least does it meet your needs? What proportion of the remuneration is pensionable? What other payments are normally available? What is the normal retirement age? Time to command is notoriously difficult to predict, but it may be a factor for you economically - don't let it be an ego factor, however! How does the company handle compassionate situations, and what are the arrangements for long-term sickness? Are you and your family protected by good medical insurance?

These are just a few points; the main message is that life outside is not so well padded by the system as it is within the Service. Many of the things you have come to take for granted will either need to be paid for by you or done without. There is no support system for families or partners, therefore you may need to consider where you live. Should you be closer to family or reliable friends? Remember, both long and shorthaul will keep you away from home for a considerable amount of time, and a fair proportion of your time at home you'll be rendered useless by fatigue! Does your other half appreciate this, and can she cope - without the RAF's help? She'll need to!

If you want more details about Virgin, please e-mail or PM me. I'm sure other ex-mil guys in the other airlines will do the same for you.

All the best.

[Dan Winterland]

There are too many variables to be specific - just as there are with the lifestyles with the types in the military. I decided that long haul was the answer when I left the Mob. Having been away for 6 months of the year with the military I thought the lifestyle would suit. At first it wasn't bad, but then I started flying 5 or 6 US east coast flights a month. Try doing that with 3 days away, 2 days off continously and the job soon loses it's appeal - especially when you consider you lose one complete night's sleep per cycle.

I left them for another long haul job based overseas which gives me over half the year off at home. My Xmas break is 4 weeks long! I have never had so much time off in my life, but when I'm at work I work hard. Awful schedules and I'm knackered most of the time when I'm away, but I'm happy.

What you should really consider is the difference between scheduled or charter. With charter, the flying is seasonal - don't expect much leave in the summer. However, with the LCOs more in the forefront the difference is becoming less clear.

However, I suspect your main selection criteria will be down to who is recruiting at the time. I advise that with 18 months to go, get your licence finished (if not already) and start job hunting now!


Please feel free to PM me.

[GlueBall]

Your monthly schedule (roster) might look real good with many days "Off" between trips. But when you arrive home after a Pacific crossing, your next two days "Off" are virtually sleepless and useless, whilst recovering your circadian rythm. Operating EZE-JFK, or FRA-JNB is less dramatic and affords better quality days "Off."
:ok:

[Maxrev]

You might also want to consider how much actual handling you'll get to do as long haul driver - most of the mil guys, especially those from fast jets find it quickly boring to do two landings a month and sit on their fingers for thirteen hours at a stretch.

You'd get plenty more action at the controls flying short haul from a regional airport on 73's or buses, if that's your bag.

Horses for courses I guess.

[Chicken Leg]

allthegear.

I have to say that I admire your confidence. I'm in a similar position to you, but my major concerns are whether I'll find a job at all, either long or short haul. In my opinion you'll be doing very well if you're in a position to choose which airline and which type of service you operate.

But then maybe it's your confidence that will swing it for you.

[allthegear]

Chicken Leg - a desire to know absolutely as much as my small brain will hold has always seen me right in my aviation career so far - that and my continual optimism and utter stubborness ! ;)

Thanks for the posts and PMs, continued food for thought. I could still do with any views of the short haul operators out there - rosters, time off, general feelings on the company - via post or PM. I'm particularly interested in those flying out of Luton and Stanstead, and also those who are working/have worked for BA.

Scroggs - thanks for your PM, exactly the info I was looking for, and a good deal of stuff I hadn't even considered.

[411A]

Having done a good mixture of long and (relatively) short haul over the last 35+ years, found the best job satisfaction was with short haul, as I enjoy handling (ie: hand flying) the aircraft a lot. At the end of a 10-12 hour long haul flight, generally too tired to do much hand flying.
Having said this, long haul flying can (and sometimes does) allow you to get your hours in quickly, allowing more consecutive days off...but perhaps not where you would like...ie: downroute. Depends a lot on the company culture and requirements.

Best job I ever had involved an assignment in Asia where they were continually short of Captains (especially training Captains as I was) which required a lot of flying (approaching 100 hours/month...sometimes more with DCA approval), few days off at base, unlimited tickets/passes for the wife so she could travel along...and then at the end of nine months, after working on scheduled days off, taking 90 days vacation (with pay of course) with no hassles from the company.

Suspect these types of jobs for expats are long gone.

[allthegear]

Beamer -

I found your posts very honest and informative - I would like to continue the dialogue via PM or email. If possible then get back in touch.

[beamer]

Happy to help if I can - use Prune private e-mail

cheers

[Dan Winterland]

One big thing to consider is time to command. It may not seem important right now as your main aim will be to get the job. Like me when I left, you may be happy just to get in the seat of an airliner. However, It won't take you long to get a bit hacked off when you realise your command with that airline will take more than 10 years to acheive. It's not the kudos - it's the cash!

You need to look at the type of operation you apply to. Short haul generally have one FO to each Captain. Long haul, it's a different story - for example Virgin are recruiting for the increase in work on their ultra long-haul A340-600s. Each flight will have 4 pilots, one Captain and 3 FOs! that doesn't leave much scope for promotion.

Also look to see if the company is growing. If you get in at the start of an expansion - excellent! time to command in expanding companies or start-up operations can be very quick.