Did the Sept 11th pilots fight or get out of thier seats?

[ssg]

I'm curious what the consensus is out there.

4 airlines go down, with hijackers taking over and airliner armed with.....tiny little boxcutters.

Does anyone see a problem with that?

-SSG

[AlphaGolfLima]

Merry Xmas !

I think you cannot really make any kind of judgement on that matter, cause
it entirely depends on what exactly the hijackers told the crew. Most likely
nobody was aware of the hijacker's plans. So if you don't know what they
are up to but they tell you to leave the cockpit because they would otherwise
bomb the aircraft you wouldn't have the slightest clue and probably wouldn't fight either,
but rather comply with the request to ensure the aircraft's safety. Until 9/11
the kamikaze-scenario wasn't that common for airliners - was it ?
So it would somehow make sense to do everything you are asked to as long as it
seems to calm the situation, after all it's about responsibility.
But 'disinformation' turns out to be crucial in such scenarios - cause the hijackers
certainly wouldn't have been able to deal with several hundreds of passengers trying
regain control over the aircraft. After 9/11 I did also ask myself what possibly might
have happend on the flight deck and I came to the conclusion that one of the 'easiest'
scenarios would probably have been to inform a member of the cabin crew that there's
a bomb on board and you need access to the flight deck in order to talk to the
flight crew. So, as soon as 2 hijackers got access to the cockpit it was probably
easy to make the crew believe everything would turn out to be fine - maybe even have
the captain make an announcement that the situation is "under control" and the hijackers
just want to fly to another country - after about 10 mins the hijackers would decide to
take out the flight crew and take over control. So everybody in the cabin - including the
attendants would assume everything is alright and nobody would worry about the ongoings
on the flight decks - after all everybody hopes ulitmately for a happy ending and wouldn't
want to risk anything.A couple of hijackers might serve as a backup plan in the cabin to
deal with potential resistence.
Even though this scenario is pure speculation it does show that the question
"did they fight or did they surrender" is indeed out of question. After all
until that terrible day experience has shown that MANY hijackings can be terminated
without significant application of violence. In a hijacking-situation you as a crew
member are more than likely to be endeavoured to comply with the hijackers' wishes as
long as the flight's safety doesn't seem to get compromised by doing so.
The hijackers wouldn't have succeeded if they had informed everbody on board that they were
going to kill thousands of people by utilizing the aircraft as a missile. Deceiving
the hostages was certainly one key element - while dealing with the flight crew was
probably not a big deal, ten dozens of passengers trying to get access to the flight
deck certainly would have been a BIG problem.

After all, that day has also changed the attitude amongst flight crews and
passengers: hijackings are no longer subject to your own life but rather with the 9/11
background allowing a hijacking to happen is also a question of civil courage because
you cannot know what they are up to ...I think any upcoming hijackings are going to face
tremendous resistance.

So, you see I don't ask myself "did they fight or not ?" anymore - but rather I wonder
"what would they need to tell you in order to let it happen"


regards


AGL

[Lump Jockey]

God, what a horrible subject. Although it does make one ponder. If the transponders were active, why wasn't nothing "done" earlier? Was there ever any "intervention"? Any interceptors scrambled for example?

[ABO944]

It is a horrible subject, but I have also wondered about the pilots on these flights!

Were any of the black boxes from the two 767's that went into the twin towers ever recovered or were they destroyed / melted in the aftermath??

Happy Christmas!

[TheKidd25]

Lump Jockey -

Indeed interceptors were scrambled on 9/11. I saw a Discovery Wings special on it a while back I think. Two F-15 from the Massachusetts Air National Guard had alert duty that day, I think for the entire East Coast of the US. They were scrambled towards the inbound World Trade Center planes, unfortunately they arrived literally minutes from being able to intercept the last plane. If I remember they were something like 60 miles away at the time, under 5 minutes flying time. Very hard to listen to the pilots of the F-15's as they described seeing NYC from 5,000 after the planes hit the WTC, knowing they were only minutes away from the intercept.

Once the WTC had been hit, fighter other fighters in the Washington DC area were scrambled as well. I seem to recall that at least one f16, and maybe two, were scrambled from the DC area. They could not intercept the plane that hit the Pentagon, but would have intercepted the last plane that crashed in PA in plenty of time. It was also hard to hear the pilots try and come to terms with the thought of having to shoot down as passenger liner. The show even played communications between ATC and fighters, very chilling to say the least.

I think the program also mentioned that at that time the USA had only two fighters on "alert" status to cover the entire East Coast, and another two on "alert" to cover the West Coast, not nearly enough, in hindsight, given the massive amount of airspace they had to cover. Again, I think the show was on Discovery Wings, or maybe the main Discovery channel, I can't remember now, as it has been over a year since I have seen it.

[PLovett]

May be wrong but I don't think the interceptors had any legal authority to shoot down the airliners. I believe that was one of the legislative changes introduced after 11 Sept.

As AlphaGolfLima says, noone was expecting aircraft to be used in the fashion that they were. Even if the interceptors had closed with the airliners prior to reaching NYC what would they have done? Probably flown a loose formation and reported back. Once over the city any shoot down would still cause immense damage and casualties on the ground.

Whilst in the realms of speculation, what would you do now if you were a passenger on a highjacked aircraft and you had some aviation skills but no experience on "heavy metal"?

[spy]

One needs to put this context! The training at the time was to do nothing to neither antagonise the hijackers nor help them. There were six or so well trained men on these aircraft the pilots and crew will have followed their training and treated the situation as a Hijack not a terrorist attack.

As for the authority to shoot down these aircraft I have no idea regarding the law, but I suspect the US government would have worried about that after the event. Very easy to second guess events now but who was to know what was happening at the time. I understand most of the terrorists did not know what they had let themselves in for.

[A300Man]

Does it really matter? Family and friends of the crews involved won't be gratified or consoled to hear that not only did their loved ones die in such a terrible act of murder, but that they only did so after being beaten and struck to the floor after trying to defend themselves.

I suggest that we leave this subject to rest........

[OFBSLF]

As for the authority to shoot down these aircraft I have no idea regarding the law, but I suspect the US government would have worried about that after the event.The F16 pilots who were orbiting over DC were told to "...defend the White House at all costs." They were ready to shoot down an airliner if necessary, regardless of the legal consequences.

[TheKidd25]

If memory serves me correctly, during the Wings channel program, it was stated by the F-15 pilots that were intercepting the NYC planes did not have authority to shoot down anything. However, the F-16 pilots that were heading to intercept the last highjacked plane did receive authorization to shoot the planes down from the National Command Authority. By that time the military and FAA had realized what was happening. I think they were told to first try and force the plane down (not sure how one would accomplish this task) and if all else failed to shoot it down.

I agree with a previous poster. There is no sense in trying to figure out what the UAL and AA polits aboard those planes were doing or not doing. This was a situation never faced by any other pilots that I know of, and they were probably just following training.

[Maxrev]

It's all been said before.

Pre- 9/11 you co-operated with the hijacker, no question, no heroics.

With a bit of luck the worst that could happen would be that you ended up sitting on some remote bit of concrete in Algeria or something while the hijackers read out their demands.

Now it's all changed, and those days are gone forever. Those pilots in the flightdecks of the 757s and 767s on 9/11 were just doing what they were trained to do - what they were told to by the hijackers.

Never say never again and all that but I don't seriously think that a 9/11 situation could occur again as I know for one if it did I'd be on the PA screaming blue murder and diving, weaving and jigging more than j-lo.

Happy New Year, then.

[G-MIDY]

I can't imagine what would go through a fighter pilots mind when his missile is locked on a 757 filled with fellow country passengers i know i couldn't pull the trigger...

[100% N1]

I heard an ATC recording of the hijackers announcing that they were "going back to the airport", which was apparantly meant to be for the pax to hear but they didn't know how to work the radio properly.

Of course the recording might be fake, but even if it is it still backs up the claims that nobody knew the planes would be used as missiles.

[missinglink]

Perhaps you should read "Alice in Wonderland..... By David Icke. It proposes a few different scenarios....!!!!!

[Man Flex]

It is a difficult subject and I have mixed feelings about discussing it. However there is a human fascination with how individuals react to situations that are life threatening. There is also I suspect a desire that through knowledge we would somehow improve our own individual chances should we be faced with such a scenario in the future.

Anyone who has listened to the recently released recording of the telephone conversation between the flight attendant of flight 11 and the AA operations supervisor will be able to determine quite easily the sequence of events on board this particular aircraft.

In answer to some of the queries above I list the less troubling facts :

In this case there were two hijackers on the flight.

The transponder was switched off.

The aircraft was most likely being hand-flown.

The flight deck crew did not leave the flight deck.

The other crew members were certainly aware of what was going on although many passengers may not have been.

[ssg]

Well A300 I hope I don't end up on your bird. Scary to think how many here stick thier heads in the sand on this one.

Discussion is there to promote safety, come up with better solutions, so we can learn from mistakes, or guess what, you'll have to repeat them.

The only real thing that changed what putting stronger doors on the cockpits.

[Old Smokey]

ssg,
The only real thing that changed what putting stronger doors on the cockpits
I beg to differ.

Pre 9/11, policy and crew training were to co-operate with the hijackers, to accede to their demands. History had shown that such a policy was unlikely to bring harm to the passengers, the crew, or people on the ground. The 9/11 crews acted appropriately.

Post 9/11, the rules of engagement have changed.

Policy is to resist the murderous scum, and fight back using all available means, and at whatever personal cost, and the acceptance that we may become victims of friendly fire.

And one other thing has changed - WE WILL NEVER SURRENDER.

Old Smokey

[Dream Land]

Does anyone ever wonder why the cockpit jump seat privileges disappeared immediately after the WTC Disaster? :confused: :confused: