Legalities of ATC listening in the UK

[crossfire]

Hello,

I'm looking for some clarification of laws here. I have tried contacting the Radio Communications Agency but getting information from them is very slow so I thought I'd ask here for some help.

Simple question first: Is it illegal in the UK to listen to Air Traffic Control on the Civil Airband on a receive-only scanner?

How about this scenario... I have my anorak on, flask of hot soup under one arm, camera under the other, I'm standing under the approach at LHR listening to my scanner and someone else who is near me hears it. Technically I am spreading what I have heard, allowing others to listen to my reception of the radio. "That last one was Lufthansa from Hamburg, Flight number 8561".

How about if I have my tape recorder attached to the scanner and I take a tape home to listen to? (I have Air Force One and the last 2 Concorde movements if anyone wants to hear them!!!) Or make an offer like that, letting someone else hear my recording?? online?? e-mail??

Now lets consider a fantastic site that I visit often, especially recently when Concorde was doing it's last few movements through JFK: www.jfktower.com

That site has a live real-audio feed of JFK ATC.

What if someone did this in the UK? would that be illegal? Even if no money was charged for the 'service' (and it was acknowledged that it wasn't for navigational purposes, just general interest etc etc) ??

How is that different from someone else overhearing my scanner when I'm out at the local airport?

Am I breaking the law by listening to JFKTower's feed (assuming illegal in the UK) all the way over there in America. I'm still 'intercepting' a radio broadcast.. so what if it's in the USA!

Lastly, for anyone who might think something along the lines of "But what if the terrorists hear it. That could help them".... don't make me slap you!

Sorry for all the questions. Any help would be greatly appreciated!

[gordonsmall]

Technically it IS illegal to listen to ATC on a scanner in the UK BUT, NOBODY has ever been prosecuted for doing it.

I often sit at the local airport perimeter fence in my car during my lunch hour and listen to ATC on my scanner, and very often the police come up to have a chat - but they have never ever questioned me using the scanner. Indeed I have a friend who sat in the departure lounge at LHR with his scanner and wasn't questioned about it.

If you were sitting listening to the police band or some other emergency service they might be a bit pissed off at you but I doubt you'll get any hassle from them listening to ATC, in fact many police officers at airports are enthusiasts themselves and will stay and talk to you for a while.

Regards,
Gordon.

[TrafficTraffic]

Technically it IS illegal to listen to ATC on a scanner

On what Legal precedent do you make this statement? My (albeit lose) interpretation of the law in this repsect is that is legal as long as you make no profit or gain from it.

It is on this basis that Radar Detectors are prohibited in some countries based on the premise that listening (Monitoring) to the Radar Band (K, Ka, X) is in itself legal but the fact that you would gain from doing it is illegal.

TT

[RomeoTangoFoxtrotMike]

TT
On what Legal precedent do you make this statement? My (albeit lose) interpretation of the law in this repsect is that is legal as long as you make no profit or gain from it.

The Wireless Telegraphy Act 1949 (WT Act), unfortunately... :ugh: See www.radio.gov.uk/publication/ra_info/ra169.htm (http://www.radio.gov.uk/publication/ra_info/ra169.htm), which says, inter alia:-

Although it is not illegal to sell, buy or own a scanning or other receiver in the UK, it must only be used to listen to transmissions meant for GENERAL RECEPTION. The services that you can listen to include Amateur and Citizens' Band transmissions, licensed broadcast radio and weather and navigation broadcasts.

and

Q. Isn't it all right to listen as long as I don't pass on what I hear?

A. No, using radio equipment to listen in, except as provided by section 5(1)(b) of the WT Act, is an offence, regardless of whether the information is passed on.


Which is all a bit of a nuisance, really :mad:

[Please don't shoot the messenger :uhoh: ]

[crossfire]

Thanks everyone for your replies. This raises a point that the RA are finding it difficult to clarify: General Reception.

General Reception? No definition is offered.

So if we take the RA169 document literally, the police - if no other reason exists to remove a person - could arrest/charge/move you on for just listening to the scanner.

So now the question is: Does General Reception include the Civil Airband 118-137 MHz ???

[You want it when?]

Not sure of the legal position - but if it's transmitted in clear and the equipment can receive it how can it be illegal? I can understand not making a profit out of it but just to receive it?

As a tryo-PPL or student if you prefer I have an exemption to use RT without having passed the exams. But it does not say anywhere that I cannot listen. Transmit is a different matter all together of course.

Indeed I used to sit at my desk at home with the scanner listening to Cranfield traffic. I can't quite get the ATIS for some reason... :D

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

"General reception" is taken to mean commercial radio stations such as the BBC. You may also listen to amateur radio transmissions. The Civil Air Band falls in the same category as Police transmissions - you can hear those on plenty of receivers but woe betide you if Noddy catches you.

[Bern Oulli]

If I remember rightly, the VHF air band frequencies (and others) to which you refer are "restricted frequencies". This means that you must not (legally) listen to them without a licence so to do (presumably issued by the RA). Now I am struggling to come up with the reference that supports that statement, so I shall retire to Google or some reference books.

[vintage ATCO]

This comes up from time to time. gordonsmall, RTFM and Heathrow Director are spot on, RA169 says it all. It was discussed a while a go on the Private Flying forum where someone asked if he could listen to RT to improve his own, a perfectly good and sensible reason one would think. Have a look here http://tinyurl.com/wwp6 particularly the third page where there is a response from the Radiocommunication Agency. (The fact that it mentions me is not the reason I've posted this. . . . :rolleyes: )

Actually I don't entirely agree with the response from RA about the bit about 'air display frequencies are publicised so it's OK'. They are publicised in NOTAMs and on stalls selling scanners but I don't think that is a invite from the organisers for everyone to listen.

However, lets be sensible. Lots and lots of people do it and no one seems to mind. Just so long as you are sensible I don't think you'll have your collar felt. I don't think streaming live RT onto the internet would be tolerated though.


VA

[1261]

Surely ALL ATS frequencies in the UK are notified?

[bagpuss lives]

As a point of interest, if someone holds a valid RT-type licence - either on the ground or pilot side of things - this entitles them to then legally listen to airband transmissions.

It's the opinion of the law enforcement agencies within the UK that airband scanning is - or rather *used* to be harmless and a blind eye is - or *was* turned. Now though, with the World being in the appalling state it's in, such activities may be viewed in a more legally adherent light depending on the situation / location and person doing the listening.

Streaming scanner audio in this country (UK) is a definite no-no however.

As is any type of public monitoring of the law enforcement or security services. If caught in the act you could find more than the Wireless Telegraphy Act being thrown at you.

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

Niteflight wrote: "As a point of interest, if someone holds a valid RT-type licence - either on the ground or pilot side of things - this entitles them to then legally listen to airband transmissions."

I really would be interested to know where this is stated. For many years I held a a Flight Radiotelephony Operator's Licence and I was told quite categorically that it only authorised me to use radio equipment in an aeroplane.

If Niteflight's argument holds good, any pilot or Air Traffic Controller could use a scanner...???

[bagpuss lives]

HD - I'll see if I can rustle up a link or something. This info came from the RCA bods who came on one of their jollies to do the R/T licence exams.

Yes, any licenced pilot or ATCO can listen to authorised air to ground transmissions on a scanner. What would be the difference of doing it at home on a scanner to listening to it all in the ops room?

[vintage ATCO]

niteflight01, I don't think you are right. A FRTOL only authorises you to use a radio in an aeroplane, just as an ATCO licence only authorises you to provide an ATC service. An off duty police officer would be committing an offence by listening to his mates on his scanner. And that was told to me by someone from RA too, and I don't think you'll find anything to contradict it on the RA site.

RA169 on the RA wbsite says it all.

And 1261, yes, ATC frequencies are notified but they are not publicised. There is not, I would suggest, an open invitation to listen.

Don't get me wrong, I am not all for bringing down the wroth of law on those that do but we were asked about the legalities.


VA

[bagpuss lives]

vintage - I think you're right. After trawling through the dirge that is most of the internet looking for the relevant documentation I can't find a single mention of it.

Now, where's that RCA blokes name??? :D

Seriously though - are those that visit a unit and plug in on sector to listen to the R/T also breaking the law then? If not then why the distinction between that and listening discretely at home? (Not that I can think of a reason why you'd want to of course :D )

As I said earlier too the law enforcement agencies still seem to be turning a blind eye to airband monitoring as any visit to an airport / spotters facility will testify. I'm not sure how much longer that situation will continue though in the current security sensitive environment. I suppose it's one of those laws whereby the officers upholding it can use their own judgement before making an arrest or taking further action.

[Spitoon]

I think it's fairly clear that the strict answer is that it's illegal but the law is rarely enforced. But if you get caught doing it (for innocent purposes) and whoever caught you is having a bad day, you could find youself having your day in court.

The general reception thing seems quite straightforward also. If you listen to any ATS frequencies you'll notice that messages are normally addressed to individual stations (e.g. Speedbird X or so and so approach). The messages are meant for that station and that station only - they are not meant for general reception. The situation for ATIS broadcasts is interesting and falls down if you try to apply this logic - perhaps it is OK to receive these broadcasts.

[terrain safe]

ATIS is OK as RTFM said, you can listen to weather information, as would VOLMET of course.

[ratsarrse]

illegal but the law is rarely enforced
Seems to me that it constitutes a bad law then. What's the point of a law that isn't enforced?

[Timothy]

rattsarse

I do think that there is a point.

There is no reason why Mr Anorak standing on the viewing platform shouldn't enhance his spotting pleasure, or increase his skills in preparation for his R/T exam by using an airband receiver for his innocent purposes. It would be daft and a waste of Police, CPS and Court time to do anything.

But when two young men from Saudi have a penthouse in Richmond, the STAR and ILS plates for LHR and are noting the exact times that El Al flights make their calls and tie those down to their visual position on the approach, this might be the only legislation that they can be got on.

W

[ALEXA]

WCollins:

I'm afraid you're way off beam here as regards the boys in blue's powers.

Your Saudis would be at Paddington Green in doublequick time, facing charges under sections 57 and 58 Terrorism Act 2000, not the peashooter offences under the Wireless Telegraphy Act!!

[Big Tudor]

Just to take this question to a slightly pedantic level. What is to stop an individual buying a C150, parking it (and paying the necessaries) on the GA apron at A.N.Other airport and sitting in that all day listening to ATC?

Seems to me an unenforcable law that needs serious review.

[turn right heading 365]

Surely the question is not whether it's legal, but why would you want to!!

[Spitoon]

Hey! Look, I never said I thought it was good law - simply that I don't think it is often enforced.

In reality, even if there was a will to enforce it, the people who sit at the airport fence are the easy ones to nab - it's the ones who choose to listen at home or whatever that make it pretty much impossible to enforce.

If you want to start a campaign to repeal all poor law you'll get my support but I can't help thinking there are better things to focus effort on!

[Legalapproach]

I thought the Poor Laws had been repealed

[crossfire]

Thanks everyone for your replies.

It looks like we wont have any of these live internet ATC feeds in the UK in that case.

It's pretty annoying, as the sites in the USA, particularly the JFK one, are so popular. Would have loved to set one up in the UK.


I'm going to sulk now.... :(

P.S. One line in RA169 says that you may listen if you have permission ... does that mean, if I ask the CAA, only receive specific frequencies (no company specific or ACARS) and get their OK in writing, it's not a problem? From my dealings with them, I see they are a seriously conservative organisation who are unlikely to say yes. Besides, it's very easy to say 'no'.

[Spank me baby!!!]

ALEXA,

Wouldn't charging them with a breach of a lesser offence allow them more time to gain evidence for a prosecution on the more serious charges? Or, are there indefinite detention periods associated with charges of Terrorism?

[Gonzo]

Crossfire,

I know someone who did just that, and the reply went along these lines:

The only way of listening to the airband legally is to be licenced, and we will only licence you if you are able to, and entitled to, both receive and transmit on that band.

[ALEXA]

SMB

The powers of detention for questioning under the UK Terrorism legislation are the widest that the UK authorities have. Subject to certain safeguards, the police can detain for a significant period. Let me know if you want details!

The two sections of the Terrorism Act I mentioned to in my earlier post deal with possession of articles and the gathering of information (for terrorism purposes) and each carries a 10 year maximum prison sentence.

By way of contrast, the Wireless Telegraphy Act offences are really very minor in criminal law terms. The main offence regarding scanners is using WT equipment without authorisation. That carries no prison sentence. The maximum fine is "Scale 5" (£5,000 last time I looked) and there is a power to order forfeiture of the kit. The authorities also have powers of entry, search and seizure, for which they require a warrant.

The Wireless Telegraphy Act does not even give the authorities a power of arrest without warrant here, so anyone caught using a scanner would normally be dealt with by summons, not by being hauled off to the nick for questioning.

Hope that helps.

[zed3]

Going back 30 years or more (!!!!!) I can remember that if one wanted to listen in on an aircraft band radio at Manchester Airport , or Ringway as it was then known as , one had to take the radio to an office somewhere under the tower to have it checked . If it didn't interfere then it was ok. Those were the days , dunno what it's like now .

[Deeko01]

How come then it was ok on concorde's final flight to hear live ATC on Sky TV, did they need permission or what??

And also the audio files of the final flight are available for download across the www so.....

Personally l think its a very flawed rule and if someone wants to commit an act of terrorism they are going to do it whatever.

[ALEXA]

deeko

You are absolutely right. There is no obvious harm in using a scanner for anorak purposes - so long as it doesn't interfere in any way with legitimate transmission and reception. (And there is a separate offence of causing interference, by the way!)

The 1949 law is nothing to do with the prevention of terrorism. It is just one illustration of how the British system works. The state has a tendency to restrict the activities of its citizens for trifling reasons. Often, I think, because the state believes that it knows best and that we can't be trusted to use our freedoms properly.

And once an activity is made criminal, it is very rare for the state to decriminalise it. I can think of three examples in the last 35 years.

So don't hold your breath.

Alexa

[bjcc]

Alexa is right, very rare for offences to be just wiped from the statute books without being replaced.
Using an airband radio isn't enforced much like a huge number of offences because a constable has discretion. Thats why you don''t always get slammed in the book when stopped by Police for a traffic offence (unless of course its traffic that stop you....). The peception most people seem to have here that listening to airband transmissions does no harm is correct, so why waste time, paper and tax payers dosh dragging Mr Cosmos Smallpiece off before the beaks.

[Keef]

My amateur radio licence (issued under the Wireless Telegraphy Act 1949) allows me to receive and transmit on a wide range of frequencies, and to receive on a load more (the "Schedule")..

It used to have a paragraph something like "May not listen on frequencies not listed in the Schedule; should transmissions on such frequencies be overheard, they may not be recorded and details must not be passed to persons not authorised to receive them; should they be recorded, the recordings must not be made available to..."

Always baffled me - effectively, "you mustn't, but if you do, you mustn't talk about it."

Then they took back the old licence and gave me a new one with many pages of terms and conditions, and it's too impenetrable to know what is/is not allowed.

Clearly a) it's not permitted to listen to ATC except when flying or ATCing; b) nobody much cares if you do, but don't talk about it.