Your Opinion (from a student)

[Flying Spice]

Hi

Just wanted to get your professional opinion on something..

Yesterday I had a circuits lesson (first time landing on a grass runway, which was short and had a huge undulation in the middle).. I normally fly a much longer concrete runway.

My first circuit went well until the landing. I set up the base turn well but came in too fast.. (80 knots).. The speed didn't decay before I hit this ridge and the front wheel bounced on the ridge and jarred the aircraft back into the air, the nose then came down and the aircraft did this a further 3 times. It didn't feel that safe, and I (having 13 hours) wasn't sure what to do. In my mind I was thinking that perhaps we should have gone around??? (havent done these yet). Instead the plane kept bumping until it finally stopped and we taxied off the runway to check it out... Lucking everything was ok but I am not sure how the FI (not my usual one or usual school) should have handled it. I am not sure after the 3rd bounce whether there was enough runway left to go around.. but after the first one there might have been.

What is your opinion on this??

thanks

Flying Spice

[Phoenix09]

I'm not an instructor but I was always taught that if I was in any doubt or in any way unhappy to go around... which would have been a bit difficult for you if you haven't been taught how to do them!

I am a bit surprised that if the bounces were hard enough that you had to stop and inspect the aeroplane that the instructor didn't take control and initiate a go around or at least attempt to sort out the landing. However, as I say, I am not an instructor and not being there at the time makes it very hard to judge the actual situation. :)

[Tinstaafl]

None of us were in the a/c with you so we're not able to judge the circumstances. Have you asked the instructor concerned?

[homeguard]

Hello

I am in instructor and the advice is simple. Like everyone else i wasn't there and so will be guarded, but;

1. If your approach is too fast or slow at the decision point (i will resist identifying the point as there are differing views) which must not be later than the threshold, GO AROUND!

2. If at any stage, even when the a/c wheels have touched, if you are not fully in control, GO AROUND!

3. If the a/c enters a porpoise (your instructor will explain this to you) then you have no control, the result of this in some a/c types can be catostrophic, GO AROUND!

I never ever contradict my students for making a decision to go around. It must always be the first option. An a/c is more manageable in the air for that is what they are built to do, fly! As i'm sure you have already discovered a/c are cumblesum and awkward on the ground and once out of control there is no control, so if in doubt GO AROUND! gain control.

You don't say at what stage you have so far reached in your circuit training but from what you say it is time for your instructor to undertake a session with you on 'go arounds' and i'm sure he/she will when you ask.

All the best

[StrateandLevel]

Firstly, you should ask your instructor as he was there!

If this was your first landing on grass and with only 13 hours experience, your instructor should first have demonstrated how to do it and then taught you how to do it.

"I set up the base turn well but came in too fast.. (80 knots).."

So what did you do to control the speed?

Was the flap setting correct? Full flap for landing!

What were you doing with the throttle? If the speed is high reduce power, possibly closing the throttle completely.

To land on rough grass you must be at the correct speed which might be 5 knots below the speed you use on a concrete surface (see Flight Manual), if not, go arround.

You must have a stable approach if you are to stand any chance of making a successful landing.

What was the instructor doing during all of this?

[Flying Spice]

To land on rough grass you must be at the correct speed which might be 5 knots below the speed you use on a concrete surface (see Flight Manual), if not, go arround.

I did not know this, (re the speed thing, on grass) and I do not recall the FI explaining.

I think I learned the hard way.

2 stages of Flap only, that is all I have ever been taught.

I was trying to manage the speed with the nose attitude and rate of decent with the power (as I have been taught).

I believe I will speak to my FI about go arounds..

thanks for the advice.

[homeguard]

Hello again

Grass/tarmac will have a bearing on landing distance. Landing distance is a defined term and allows for normal braking after touch down. Breaking on grass can lead to skidding should it be wet or soft and therefore the landing distance will be longer than on firm ground or tarmac.

Should the runway length not be an issue then approach speeds are unchanged grass or tarmac or whatever but never land early. Induced drag, produced while airborn, can be far more effective than heavy braking on the ground which, if you land too early, so therefore too fast, will be poor on any surface owing to the a/c being light. Enjoy flying the a/c, do not be so anxious to land. Who wants to pay in excess of £100 per hour to drive along a runway when you could be flying. The secret of achieving a good landing is by trying not to! Tease the ground, do not let it have you before it's time!

Partial flap/ full flap or no flap at all the a/c will land just the same. It's just a matter of when. I teach my students partial flap initially - i find it helps them hone their skills by giving them more time in the hold off to learn to control the aeroplane prior to the touch down. They then learn max flap precision approaches ( i hate the term 'short field' )later.

Talk to your instructor in more depth about 'go arounds' but also about attitude for speed / power for height to get clarification. It isn't really as simple as that. All powered flight is about matching power with attitude to achieve a performance. i.e. you could be too fast because your power is too great or too slow because your power is too low and all the while your attitude maybe correct. So to chase the ASI ( which suffers from a considerable amount of lag )with attitude may lead you into a fools paradise.; Always think power/attitude for they work together. How or what technique is used in achieving the final result must be left to you and your instructor. Whatever the personal preferences that i have in regard to approach technique i will keep it to myself - many ways to skin a cat.

[Kermit 180]

Stable approach, correct speed, correct flap setting (usually full flap!), aircraft trimmed. If not, go around. Simple. You can go around at any stage, terrain and obstacles permitting. On landing avoid letting the control wheel/stick forward whatsoever, keep the backpressure throughout the landing right up to the point where you are completely at a stop. Your nose wheel will love you for it.

Just a thought.


Kerms :ok:

[StudentInDebt]

Grass landings for the uninitiated normally used to tarmac can be a bit of an eyeopener. Its bumpy, its noisy and the plane never seems to stop flying. It requires discipline and good technique to do a good grass landing (or any hard surface for that matter) and even more so for touch and go's

From your profile I assume you fly from Biggin Hill normally and I think I can guess which grass airfield you visited. I would have thought that one of the major problems here is the difference in perspective from landing at a wide long flat runway to landing on a shorter less clearly defined grass runway.

Sounds like a classic case of a bounce followed by porpoising from what you describe and really your only option should be to go-around from the first bounce, especially as you are already halfway down the runway (from your description). In fact, if you were still doing 80 knots on final with any flap setting you should have gone around much earlier, PA28s stall at 50ish knots with full flap so you're going to float a LONG way at 80 as well as having a very flat or even slight nose down attitude. 65-70 would have been a better choice depending on flap choice which from my book of many near disasters should have been 3 stages.

But since you only have 13 hours you should not be getting guidance from this forum, your instructor should have provided a thorough de-brief on what went wrong, followed by a demonstration of the correct technique, followed by you practising more touch and go's. Instead it sounds like you embarrassed him and he cut your detail short. You should also insist that you are shown Go-Arounds on your next lesson because there is a lot more to it than simply slamming the throttle open and hauling back on the stick.

[Flying Spice]

But since you only have 13 hours you should not be getting guidance from this forum

I hear ya

thanks

[Charlie Foxtrot India]

aw hey Flying Spice, please don't think you're not welcome here. A lot of students come to this forum for advice, and it often starts a debate that we can all benefit from. I think what was meant was that the most appropriate person to ask for guidance is your own instructor who was there at the time. Sounds like he/she MAY have misjudged the situation, but hey we all make mistakes, we just don't all admit to them! Good that the detail was ended so that the aircraft coud be checked out following the bounce.
It's the lessons where things go wrong that we all learn the most. Good luck!

[HEALY]

Flying Spice

Good for you to say something about what took place. Alot of people will tend to stay quiet about their early mistakes. As CFI says this sort of topic will usually start a debate first with plenty putting in their 20 cents worth. Take all advice on after consulting you Instructor and relevant school/aircraft manuals.

My 20 cents worth (got this far with a post...might as well keep going) involves taking action before even getting close to the runway where bad things can happen. I teach people a small 'shopping list' and a couple rules of thumb to help.

1) HALF WAY ROUND HALF WAY DOWN- as it says you want to be approx 750' agl half way round base. If a little high reduce power a couple 100 rpm at most. If your low increase power a couple 100 rpm.

2) The speed needs to correct on Base. If fast tendency is overshoot turn=increased angle of bank=closer to stall angle=BAD

3)Dont be afraid to GO AROUND ON BASE...or any leg for that matter if you think your not flying in the correct flying parameters.

4)Once turned final use a little mental check called 'AAAR' (as in aaar s**t my instructor isn't here, I need to do it myself)

A=Altitude. Am I at least 500' agl wings level on rwy centerline.
A=Airspeed. Am I at correct Early final approach speed.
A=Attitude. Does the picture look right. You know by now.
R=RoD. Is the descent rate manageable ie 500-600' per min.

If any of these are out of tolerance fix them one by one. If you have a brain dump and forget (it happens) GO AROUND. Your instructor should show you how to Go around from all positions in the circuit including Base and Final in a number of different configurations.

Good luck with the rest of your flying and keep up the posts with any other questions beacause there are always people to help.


CHEERS

[jarjam]

Mr Spice,
What has been said before covers nearly all the main points. If nothing else it was a very good lesson in some respects. As an Instructor I teach all my students that if the speed the height or the flight path isn't stable its a no brainer Go Around. If it was as severe a porpoise as you described you probably got away without damaging the a/c partly down to softer (grass) surface. Although I appreciate I wasn't there I am suprised your instructor didn't intervien.

The key is to learn from other peoples mistakes, without being morbid I always read the accident reports and of all the landing accidents that result in a broken nose gear, propellor or engine the last line of the report always say's I quote:

"In a full and frank report submitted by the pilot he commented that he believes the accident could have been avoided if he had made an earlier decision to Go Around".

Safe landings:O

[Gertrude the Wombat]

The key is to learn from other peoples mistakes, without being morbid I always read the accident reports We have to. We wouldn't live long enough to make all the mistakes ourselves.

[Flying Spice]

Well guys thanks for the advice...

I have since had to do some go arounds for real.. but would like to do some more go arounds form different points in the circuit before I go solo..

I am close to solo and am quite nervous about the prospect.

[fernytickles]

Flying Spice - no matter how nervous you are for your solo flight, try to enjoy it :)
You will only ever go solo for the very first time once in your life..... Have fun :)

[aardvark keeper]

Every school / instructor has there own methods

We use this check on the approach at 300 ft

CRAP

C- carb heat to cold - in case of GO- AROUND
R - Runway - is it clear?
A - Approach - are you HI / lOW / FAST / SLOW?
P - Permission to land - do you have it?

It's quite easy to remember but in the last three checks especially, initiate a Go -around if you are not happy

As you have heard, a good approach leads to a good landing etc

[G-Foxtrot Oscar 69]

aardvark keeper do you realy set your Carb to cold at 300'!

Seems a bit to early to me and still pleant of chance to carb Ice.

I have always been taught and always do carb to cold on my landing roll, ie just before exit at a taxi way. (In most piston A/C)

This then gives you a G/A sequence of:-

Full Power
Carb Off
Drag Flap away
Pitch 65Kt.

If turning carb off at 300' works I recon it aint a bad idea. Afterall habds up who has not done a G/A with the carb still on and wondered why the A/C is performing badly!

After all a G/A below 300'aal gives a much higher work load.

I am most interested now.

[Tinstaafl]

Don't think it makes any difference to select Carb heat cold on final or after landing or whenever. If you learn to set CH as part of the drills you normally do to set power then who cares?

No different to using mixture or RPM etc.

[StudentInDebt]

Flying Spice

CFI is correct, you're welcome to post questions or worries here, but in this case you should (in a perfect world) have been told what went wrong and shown how to correct it.

Keep enjoying it :D