Altitude Restrictions?

[Sink Rate]

May I pose a question to you all as to altitude restrictions on SIDS and STARS?

If say you are flying flying a STAR and the controller clears you down to, say FL180, level by ABCDE.

You look at the plate and it says "thou shalt be at ABCDE AT FL180". Easy so far.

If then ATC clear you down to FL140, before you have reached ABCDE, are you still then expected to meet with the AT FL180 AT ABCDE restriction and then continue descent to FL140?

I think not, but some of the guys I fly with seem to think so, others aren't sure. Also vice versa with a SID and climb clearances.

What are your opinions of this. I am especially interested to know what our TC controllers think/know!?

Thanks in advance.
SR

[The Fat Controller]

This has been covered a few months ago,officially a new clearance invalidates the previous one, and if a restriction is still needed this has to be re-stated, in this example "descend FL140 to cross ABCDE at FL180 or below".
On SIDs, a clearance to a higher level than the SID altitude does not abdicate you from the responsibility of making the required (minimum) climb gradients of the initial part of the SID.
In the Scottish TMA we teach this way so that there is no misunderstanding as to what the pilots are expected to do.
There are, however, some people who believe that this is not the case, so if you have any doubt please ask, you may get a sharp response but at the end of the day have a smug smile in the cockpit !
Hope this helps.....

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FATCO

[This message has been edited by The Fat Controller (edited 29 August 2000).]

[This message has been edited by The Fat Controller (edited 29 August 2000).]

[jjj]

Try a cross posting on ATC forum.

[mustafagander]

As I understand it, unless and until you hear the words "cancel STAR" all restrictions stand. After all, a clearance to an altitude has nothing to do with crossing resrictions which exist for whatever reason - not necessarily obvious to us.
Likewise with SIDs.

[This message has been edited by mustafagander (edited 30 August 2000).]

[Ford Fairlane]

In Aus, you must comply with all SID/STAR altitude restrictions unless the term "cancel SID/STAR" is used by ATC. Even if you are vectored off the SID/STAR a DME crossing restriction would still apply unless the "cancel" term is used. However, a waypoint restriction would not if you were vectored around it.

Often we will get vectors and then "track to ABCDE to resume the XYZ arrival" In which case the STAR waypoint restrictions again apply.

They may say something like "descend to FL140, cancel ABCDE altitude restriction" when they want you to continue with the SID/STAR but disregard that single restriction.

Hope this helps

[gaga1976]

So what if yo were given "...descend FL100, cross ABCD FL 140" and than later on given radar vector some 10, 20 degrees left or right (maybe even present hdg). Sometimes these restrictions are quite low from pilot's point and for saving the fuel - higher the better.
Also on SID: Cross ABCD FL 100 or bellow, and ATC clears you FL 130 in Clearance pre Taxi, and than after take-off with Departure ATC "... Climb FL 150" Are we to maintain FL 100 up to the ABCD until clear higher by Departure ATC?
Is there a book or something on the matter?
Thanks.

[mustafagander]

As I understand it, the example is not a STAR, so as soon as you are vectored away from ABCD all bets are off - how can a restriction apply if you're not going there???
With a SID (or STAR), ALL restrictions apply until the words "cancel SID (or STAR)" regardless of level cleared. So, you cross ABCD F100 or below regardless of cleared altitude - obviously a clearance limit below the restriction takes precedence.
In Oz try reading the AIP ENR 1.5 sections re SIDs and STARs.

Lose 1 mark for poor spelling :)

[This message has been edited by mustafagander (edited 01 September 2000).]

[Sink Rate]

As far as I am aware the term "cancel SID/STAR" is not used in the UK.

At least I've never heard it! So where does this leave us?

:-)