PPL - and then what?

[Pianorak]

I have just been reading “Beyond the PPL” which I found a quite unputdownable eye opener. In the final chapter, the author, Nigel Everett, asks – perhaps a touch disingenuously? – “Finally, may I ask you whether you agreed with all I have said in this book? I do hope the answer is “No”.”

I hate to admit it, but I find myself in total agreement with him – my excuse being that I am not yet a PPL holder and fairly gullible to boot.

Question to all those who have read the book: Which of Everett’s pronouncements would you take issue with?

[strafer]

Pianorak,

you've had 70-odd views and no replies which seems to suggest I'm not the only one who's never read that book.

Give us more info!

[FlyingForFun]

I have a feeling I bought that book for Aerbabe for her birthday a couple of years ago. If not, I bought something that sounded very similar.

Are you still lurking around here, Aerbabe, or do you just hide out in Jetblast nowadays??? :D

FFF
--------------

[In Altissimus]

OK - I'll take the bait....

I bought that book during a particularly depressing part of of my training, read it, lost it, then read it again about 3 months ago (4 months after passing).

The first time I read it it definitely helped to crystallise my ideas about what, how and where I wanted to fly.

The second time I read it, I thought - 'what a load of tosh'. This is unfair, but it's because the book is aimed at slightly nervous PPLs who rarely venture beyond the circuit or county. I don't think you'll find many of those type of pilots here on Proon.:ok:

In summary- maybe worth reading during training, probably not worth buying as a PPL unless you are very out of touch, or nervous (or maybe learnt in the USA:\ )

[Pianorak]

Hmm, three unenthusiastic replies. Obviously I’ve addressed the wrong audience which in a way is reassuring: everybody on this forum knows precisely where they are heading – dead on track! :ok:

[Evo]

I think the response just tells you that nobody has read it! Give us a clue and we'll find something to argue about... :)

[In Altissimus]

Who are you calling a nobody?

I'll set my big bruvver on you:E

:} :} :}

[Pianorak]

Give us more info

Strafer and Evo:

The book is subtitled: Putting the fun and skill into flying. My impression is that the author, to quote from the introduction, essentially addresses all “qualified private pilots who are unsure of what to do with their expensive and hard-earned qualifications. The world may be full of them, but the skies are empty. . . There is a marked sense of anti-climax and a tendency to wander around the sky like a lost dog, often followed by a loss of interest in flying at all. . . For VFR by day the CAA offers no further goal for the PPL, although there is a yawning gap between the standards of VFR flying of the newly qualified PPL and the experienced and truly competent VFR pilot . . . But the CAA apparently sees no need for further goals in VFR flying for the PPL. . .”

The book then deals with three main areas: a) aircraft handling – b) Navigation and c) Radio and Clearances.

Before posting my original query I should of course have realized that unlike me my fellow Ppruners know full well what to do with their expensive and hard-earned qualifications and obviously have no need of any kind of pep talk or morale booster.

May I add that I am in no way connected with the book’s author or publishers.

[Evo]

Whoops - nobody apart from SomeBlokeOnceKnownAsSomeBlokeInASpamcan then... :O

[Fly Stimulator]

On the subject of people giving up through boredom...

The Royal New Zealand Aero Club runs this scheme (http://www.rnzac.org.nz/pilot_proficiency_scheme.htm) in their country which gives qualified pilots something more to aim for.

Quite a good idea for those who want some sort of structure to operate within.

Another approach is simply to scan the magazines and web sites such as this for places and events which appeal and then go along to those. Or set yourself some personal goals such as visiting a certain number of new airfields in a year / flying to a foreign country / flying a new type / doing your IMC etc., etc.

Just going for a potter around in the air can be great, but extending yourself a little is probably the key to avoiding boredom.

[Evo]

Before posting my original query I should of course have realized that unlike me my fellow Ppruners know full well what to do with their expensive and hard-earned qualifications and obviously have no need of any kind of pep talk or morale booster.


Come on, that's a bit unnecessary. Of course most of us wonder post-PPL what we're doing to do with the little plastic poo-coloured book. However, I'm guessing that not many people ;) have read the book you are talking about - not easy to reply unless you give us some more info.

[Tall_guy_in_a_152]

...the book is aimed at slightly nervous PPLs who rarely venture beyond the circuit or county. I don't think you'll find many of those type of pilots here on Proon

This was me a couple of years ago (5 years after qualifying and allowing my PPL to lapse briefly) and I remember seeing the book in the Tran$air catalogue and considering it. Then I discovered PPRuNe and it had the same effect that the book might have done. I now fly further, better and safer (imho) AND have more fun doing it. PLUS a book would not have given me a few new mates or got me drunk a couple of times.

Thank you all!

[In Altissimus]

TGia152

...in that case, maybe if I'd got the book before discovering Proon, then I might still have both my front teeth...

:} :} :}


Whaddya reckon the chances are of me suing Proon to recover my post-bash dental costs then?

[strafer]

It's an interesting point as to why so many qualified PPLs drop out of aviation - but I think the 3 main reasons are money, money & money. The petty bureaucracy of the CAA doesn't help of course, but as GA is such a small community, there's very little chance of any Gov't being remotely interested in proposals to expand our part of the aviation world.
The answer is for the CAA to be like the FAA and have a mandate to encourage aviation as well as regulate it. The only chance of that happening is if an aviation enthusiast somehow finds himself as a junior minister in the MOT, in charge of the CAA. (But as most people I've met in aviation tend not to be corrupt, self-important scumbags - there's very little chance of them becoming MPs).

Having said that, I can't believe people drop out through boredom. Even if you're not doing it for a Commercial license, there's so much you can do after your PPLs - type ratings, aerobatics, twins, etc. (Presuming you're as rich as Croesus, obviously).

[In Altissimus]

I'm not so sure Strafer.

I think a large part of the problem is the disillusionment that sets in once the new PPL-holder realises that his/her dream of freely roaming the British skies is a myth put about by greedy flying clubs. (Sometimes I think this sets in pre-test - which accounts for some of the drop out rate IMHO.)

I don't think I was unusual when I started this flying lark to dream that one day (wallet permitting) I would be able to fly places instead of drive to them. It's quite a kick in the teeth (no comments please) to wake up to the fact that 7 times out of 10 that will not be feasible due weather, aircraft availability, or prohibitive landing fees.

I know that, because I'm not interested in aeros or the engineering side of things, I have to go on to do the IMC now in order to keep my interest alive.

Which brings us nicely back to That Book. One problem I have with it is that the author expounds constantly pushing one's limits as a method of keeping things going, but is quite scathing about the value of the IMC rating. I cannot reconcile these apparently opposing points of view.

[Evo]

I found starting to use my PPL to be quite a hard transition. In the latter stages of the training it's all very focussed; solo landaway, QXC, skills test, you always know what is coming up and you are never more than a couple of hours away from the next milestone. Suddenly you get the PPL, wait a few weeks for the CAA to give you a licence and then you're on your own.

Of course, your school will rent you a spamcan but it is up to you to decide what to do with it. Most of us are fairly short of money after the PPL, so long flights are hard to justify and the local area trips begin. These are fairly dull, and with a bit of bad weather it would be easy run out of currency and to slowly stop bothering. I'm not surprised that many people never get past this stage.

Me? Well, I certainly struggled with the post-PPL blues. I had a five month break from flying almost as soon as I got the licence (first the weather, then starting to wonder if it was worth it - in the end I got my licence in September, logged a handful of hours and then didn't fly again until March. Even stopped reading PPRuNe for a while :rolleyes: ). Luckily I discovered Robins, got going again and have had a year exploring local aerodromes, doing an IMC, starting some aeros - and, wx permitting, a PFA taildragger should be arriving at Goodwood on Sunday and a fifth of it is mine. :D

[Pianorak]

Evo quote: <<Come on, that's a bit unnecessary.>>

That’s the trouble with the written word: ie no voice – no body language. Honestly, I wasn’t being sarky but admit the passage could be interpreted as such. No offence was meant. I am genuinely in awe of all you PPL holders, including my current brilliant FI.

[Fly Stimulator]

I am genuinely in awe of all you PPL holders...

Don't worry - that will only last until you actually meet one of us! ;)

[IO540]

Strafer

It's an interesting point as to why so many qualified PPLs drop out of aviation - but I think the 3 main reasons are money, money & money

I don't believe in that - simply because anyone with enough of a brain to pass the PPL exams is capable of working out the costs. And if they choose not to care, that's their problem; they had ample opportunity.

I reckon about 75% of "dropouts" can be easily explained: they did it as a personal challenge (or to prove to others they can do it). One doesn't have to hang around the training scene for long to see this. Same in the USA, where costs are far lower.

The remainder get caught by the fact that VFR flight (and PPL training is far too basic to be good enough for anything more than CONSERVATIVE VFR flight) is very limiting in the UK. One can come up with various incentive schemes (group fly-outs etc) but these get boring for most people who have a normal life because the flying social scene is full of anoraks. Most people will drop out after a few months no matter what you do, due to the c**p social scene. Perhaps another 20%. Actually I think there are lots of reasons why this group gets decimated; anoraks is one, money is another, c**p planes is a big one, lack of confidence in navigation...

This leaves a few, very few out of the original trainees, who are

1) happy to just potter around (on a nice day) in a self fly hire spamcan doing easy flights, or

2) they decide to really go for it and throw a vast amount of time and money at it, get the ratings and get a decent plane and they end up going places and they DO enjoy it long-term

I ended up in group 2) but I would not wish it on anybody. To do this in a training industry which is firmly geared up for the "95% group" is a pretty frustrating experience. For a start, most instructors have never been anywhere, so who do you ask if you want to go somewhere far?

There is probably a very small group 3) which is self fly hire pilots who do get pretty adventurous, VFR.

I have the book somewhere and when I've read it I will reply to the original post :O

[strafer]

Luckily I discovered Robins
Evo - tell me more....

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

PPL - and then what?

1) Buy a share in an interesting aeroplane withy the small wheel at the back.

2) Learn to fly it well.

3) Have loads of fun visiting strips and fly-ins and the like.

4) Learn aeros.

Lots of folk I know (and me as well!) who have been flying for very many years have done the above - so there must be something in it.

(Only works for those who view small aeroplanes as a source of fun rather than a means of transport)

SSD

[vancouv]

For me, the main problem was weather. While getting the PPL, having an instructor there to tell you what to do, it all seems quite straight forward.

But then you end up with a plane and have to make your own mind up about where you're going to go. At first this is fine, but then the local trips become boring and you think about longer trips away.

And now the weather becomes a real pain. I've had several weekends away booked, all of which have been cancelled because either the weather was bad to start with, or the forecast wasn't good enough to risk being away from home.

Add to this quite a few planned flights with friends which had to be cancelled (and try explaining to non flyers why you can't go when the sun's out but the viz is 3K) and it all gets a bit irritating.

I've started doing the IMC, but even when I've got this it isn't going to make much difference. It would be foolish to T/O knowing you were going to have to use it.

All this conspires against continuing enthusiasm. My advice is:

1) Find someone to fly with, maybe someone more experienced to give you confidence. Flying with another pilot really does increase the fun.

2) Do some extra training such as IMC, night, complex etc. Having a focus rather than bumbling around aimlessly is good.

3) Try to arrange some impromptue days off work, where you can phone up in the morning if the weather's good and say 'I'm off flying'. It's usually easy to get a plane mid week, and the skies are lovely and empty.

Well, these have worked for me anyway. :ok:

[dublinpilot]

I think a big part of the cause of drop outs, is that flying schools are geared up for training and not for PPL's. At least that is a big part of the problem over here.

When I had completed my PPL my cross wind landing were faultless. I could even impress myself ;) However as a PPL I was not allowed take a plane if there was a cross wind component anywhere approaching 15kt, even though the a/c has a demonstrated componet of 25kt, unless flying with an instructor! As a result my crosswind landing are now crap!

Same goes for vis....My licence says i can fly in Vis as low as 3km....anything less than 15km and you'd be getting strange looks!! (Not that I'm recommonding 3km vis to anyone!)

Schools apply the same cotton wool approach to PPLs that they apply to students, and this can be very fustrating. Now I'm not saying that they shouldn't be cautious. But if a PPL can demonstrate to an instructor that they are capable of flying safely in given conditions, consistantly, and it's within the liminations of their licence and a/c limits, then they should be allowed.

As an example, I once had to do a currency check on a day when flights were "with an instructor only" due to cross wind. I did very well, had no problems, and the instructor commented something along the line that my cross wind landings were very impressive. So no problem with the sign off, but no flying today with out an instructor!

As a result you become limited to "easy flying days".

Another part of the problem is due to the lack of social scene. It's actually very hard to get to meet other PPL's. My flying budget allows me to fly a 2 hour trip, every second week. Starting and ending in the same place, means that I can never get more than 1 hours flight away, and I soon get very familiar with the area. (Leaving it for 4 weeks would require a currency check, and negate the saving). Now sharing the flight with another PPL would double the distance and make overnight trips more realistic (due to min flying hours). However getting to know other PPL's is difficult. Flight training is not a social activity. You turn up to the airport, go of with an instructor, no one else, and then come back and leave. I've slowly gotten to know some, but it has taken a long time, and I'm sure many others have given up before making those contacts.

The sad thing is that these problems are easily solved. Overly cautious restrictions should be lifted when you have proven your ability (subject to currency checks as necessary), and a better social scene in clubs would help people make contact with like minded people.

I'm luckey to have found a club of PPL's now (rather than a training school). I now have more restrictions on the weather and destinations than I had before, but the club will lift each of those as I get an opportunity to demonstrate to my instructor that I'm capable of handling them. And as I said, over time I got to meet like minded pilots.

However, despite the fact that I love love love to fly, I came very near to giving up due to fustration with the school (post ppl, and not my original school, who were excellent, but were taken over). Only my love of flying made me determined to find somewhere else, somewhere better. I dare say many give up before they find that place geared up for PPLs, not not SPLs.

dp

[Evo]

strafer

Wandering off-topic a bit, but when did that ever stop me.. ;)

Compared to the bog-standard flying-school C152/PA-28, I think the Robin range of aeroplanes are wonderful (well, with the possible exception of the R1180, which i don't much like :) ). The 2120 (aka the HR200) is a bit underpowered, but it's designed as a basic trainer - even so it is responsive, fun and far better than PA38. The 2160 is my favourite, almost the same as the 2120 but with more power and aerobatic, but great for just going A to B as well. I've also flown the DR400, which is proof that a four-seat tourer doesn't have to be like the PA-28 that I learned on. When I first flew one I found it to be a revelation, just when I needed one - not all aeroplanes were like this knackered bus-like plodder that I had been flying round the south of England.

They aren't the only fun aeroplanes of course, but they're easy to find and no more expensive than a spamcan (cheaper where I am). Go on, find one with a bit of grunt and give it a go... :ok:

[charlie-india-mike]

Evo

I can concur, having recently had the plesure of flying a very nice new (2002) Robin DR400, they are a delight to fly much better than the various PA28 varients that I have flown in the past.

With regard to post PPL flying, I am currently trying to get my hands on as many different types as possible, I don't need P1 hrs as I fly as a hobby so I don't mind doing hrs with an instructor and I learn something new just about every flightand get checked out on the various types that I fly.

I have recently started flying with another low'ish hrs PPL and I think that this is really the way to go. You share the flying and can get more hrs in the air for less personel expence and you both learn from each other.

Anyone in the Beds/Hearts/Bucks area want to share a Flight or 2?

C-I-M

[IO540]

dublinpilot

I think a big part of the cause of drop outs, is that flying schools are geared up for training and not for PPL's

Great points.

But isn't that because most PPLs never go anywhere? Indeed many never intend to fly (e.g. the PPL money was an xmas present). Because most PPLs never use their PPL for anything anywhere near their privileges, nobody complains that the PPL syllabus is so limited relative to required skills, the training so disorganised, the training planes so decrepit, etc. It's a catch-22.

Imagine a driving school, where most people never got a car, and the car rental firms were renting out 1965 Ford Anglias. Almost nobody would question the training standards. They could train in an Anglia too, and almost nobody would care. But nearly all people drive, so the whole business runs pretty well - it has to. You could not have say 30% of new drivers getting killed within the first few weeks. But let's say one forced every new PPL to fly 100 hours cross country in 3000m visibility (legal VFR) - how many would make it, honestly?

The one thing which CAN be done is for schools to encourage PPLs to stick around and participate in various things, and put some real effort into creating a decent social scene. PPL students could also go up with existing PPLs, to see that flying is actually fun. But in reality most schools want you out (unless you pay for more training) and they certainly don't want you messing with "their" students.

[Whirlybird]

What do you do after the PPL?

There's LOADS to do. Find someone else to fly with - half the cost, half the work, twice the fun. If that's difficult at your school/club, try another one. Fly to new airfields. Try flying something new - helicopters, microlights, taildraggers, gliders, gyroplanes - just for the hell of it and because all new flying experience is useful. Go to fly-ins, aviation events, the PFA Rally, talk to people and find out what else you can do and who you can do it with. Try the Dawn to Dusk, the Malta Air Rally, or any other competition you can find. Watch air racing and find out about taking part. Try aeros. Do the IMC; even if you don't want to use it, all experience is good. When you go on holiday, hire an aircraft and instructor for an hour, just to see a new area. Look into buying a share in an aircraft; it may not cost as much as you think.

I'm sure there are a few more if I think for a while.

[IO540]

Whirlybird

I don't disagree with anything you've said but, it's funny, reading your post carefully, that you mention just about everything except one thing........ actually going somewhere for a purpose. "Utility", in other words.

Some of your list means a lot of extra money, time, and extra training, especially helicopters!! And most of it would require the participant to own an extensive collection of anoraks :O What about the 99% of "people outside"?

If one did a PPL(A), took the equivalent cost of a PPL(H) and spent that on a syndicate share in something decent and extra training, they could certainly go places.

I think the best single bit of advice for staying in the game is to buy into a syndicate almost immediately after the PPL, and if one can afford it, buy something. And for going somewhere, the IMC Rating is the baseline.

[RodgerF]

The best description I ever read was a new PPL who described his flying capability as 'more a sparrow than an eagle'.

This belief that as soon as a PPL is issued, then one can fly anywhere/anytime is just unrealistic. In any case if someone had just passed their driving test could they immediately drive single-handed to Scotland for example. Organisations that peddle this nonsense are doing the whole industry a disservice.

I think that instructors don't take enough interest with what their students intend to do afterwards. My instructor advised 'to go places', nothing destroys confidence faster than never leaving the local area. It helps of course if the instructor has gone places themselves.

There will always be students for whom getting the PPL was the sole objective. Some students stop after first solo. They say they have flown the aircraft on their own, that's all they wanted.

[Whirlybird]

IO540,

Personally I've rarely managed to fly anywhere for a purpose. I've never lived close enough to an airfield to make it worthwhile, or owned an aircraft so that it's free when I want it. Good point though.

I didn't mean you qualify to fly all those things I mentioned; I meant give them a try. Not sure where anoraks comes into it either.

Yes, buying into something straight after the PPL is one option. I nearly took it, thought for too long, and discovered helicopters. Ended up broke and owning nothing, but had lots of different experiences and don't regret any of it.

It all depends what you want. But there is definitely no lack of things to do post PPL. And not all of it is all that expensive.

I suspect that after having had one's flying organised and decided by someone else for so long, some people just can't cope with having to make their own decisions. I recall panicking slightly post PPL, because no-one told me what I should do next. For me, that stage didn't last long. Maybe it does for some.

[IO540]

Pianorak

I've read most of the book and bearing in mind that in this business there are as many opinions on any single thing as there are people you ask, I don't think it is far off for the most part.

He does make some very valid points regarding why most pilots give up; pretty unusual in this business where the training organisations like to simplistically blame everything on lack of money.

I think his points are very well made re the near-total inadequacy of the PPL for actually going anywhere. Everybody knows (or should!) that you need a lot of extra training for e.g. aerobatics, but nobody is told that you also need it for flying from A to B.

He does occassionally make the same mistake which is routinely made by all UK's flying magazines: generalisations which may apply to one plane but certainly do not apply to another. (The magazines are constantly printing stuff about e.g. owner maintenance, nearly all of which is relevant only to owners of PRIVATE CofA planes).

I do think that on GPS (a great navigation device, great for reducing cockpit workload especially for a less than experienced pilot) he fails to make the distinction between it being used as a primary nav device, or as sole nav device. I think he should have grabbed the bull by the horns and simply told people to fully integrate the GPS into their navigation. After all, he does go into some length into VOR/DME etc but only gives a very brief mention to the IMC Rating, something which is a huge benefit to a UK pilot who wants to go from A to B rather than just fly 50 miles for a burger. But, perhaps, the author's high profile in the UK GA scene prevents him from being in open conflict with the CAA safety presentations... it is officially OK to kill yourself while VOR tracking but not while GPS tracking :O