MD-11, some questions.

[EFP058]

Hi everyone,

first of all I would like to introduce myself. My name´s Andre and I´m from Dortmund, Germany, approximately 25 miles east of Duesseldorf (EDDL). I´ve been reading this forum as a silent lurker for many years now and have finally decided to make the step and register.
I´m no commercial pilot myself but have been in love with aviation ever since childhood. Unfortunately the closest I will ever get to flying some heavy iron myself is by flying a sim, but as you probably know that´s not exactly cheap when you have to pay for it yourself. ;)

Anyway, on to my questions. One of my favorite aircraft is the mighty MD-11, and I would be very grateful if someone in the know would sacrifice some time to answer some of my questions about this flying beauty. I do realize that I am asking a lot of questions at once, so please feel free to answer only one or two of those questions if you don´t know the answers to the other ones. I am thankful for any and all response.
So here are the questions:

1. What is the concept of the "dial-a-flap" technique? How does it work? Can a pilot select any flaps-angle he/she likes as opposed to the fixed values found in Boeing and Airbus machines? If so, what are the advantages, what the disadvantages?
Basically the entire concept is absolutely alien to me and I would love to hear whatever you have to say about it.

2. Kind of related to the first question, what are typical flaps settings for takeoff and landings?

3. What is the max. angle of flaps retraction without the landing gear being extended?

4. How difficult is it to fly the MD-11, especially in the approach/touchdown phase of the flight? Does the high approach speed make a difference when compared to other types you have been flying? Does it require an entirely different technique, or is it the same as every other aircraft out there, except for the fact that the world goes by a little faster? How hard is it to brake the MD-11 down to taxispeed, taking into consideration that it is quite fast and heavy and needs to rely on only 8 wheels equipped with brakes (I am assuming the center gear is not brake-equipped, right?)

5. What is a typical fuel reserve left in the tanks when arriving at the destination? A friend of mine once told me it is usually in the 15 to 20 ton bracket, but I find that a little hard to believe.

6. What is a typical Mach number for the cruise, and how fast can the MD-11 go if costs are not a consideration? Somewhat related, what is the max. FL the MD-11 can reach in perfect conditions?

7. What is the starting order of the engines? Is it the usual 1, 2, 3, or maybe something totally different like 2, 1, 3? I´m asking because engine #2 is so high up in the air that it could be started while still on the stand without endangering anyone on the ramp.

8. Again related to the previous question, can engine #2 serve as makeshift-APU if the "real" APU is u/s? Does it ever happen in the real world? I´ve never seen an MD-11 sitting at the gate with engine #2 running at idle, so I am assuming it just simply doesn´t happen. Then again I may just not have seen it yet, so how knows...

9. Is it common practice to shut down an engine on taxi-in like it is on some other aircraft? I do realize that this is also airline- and/or PIC-specific, but can it be done, and if yes, how often does it happen? Also, is it engine #2 that will be shut down in this case (so you will still have symmetric (spelling?) thrust), or is it for some strange reason another engine that will be shut down?

These are my questions, and like I already said, I would be very grateful if anyone could answer some of these questions for me. If a question is unclear please don´t hesitate to ask so I can clarify. Please keep in mind that english is not my native tongue, so mistakes are likely to happen. Thank you very much in advance, gentlemen! :)


Oh, by the way, just to make this posting even longer than it already is (hehe), does anyone happen to know how to find out the names of the crew (both flightdeck and cabin) who operated a certain BA flight back in April of this year?
I´m asking because I had a wonderful experience with the crew of that flight, easily the best flight I have ever had in my life. The cabin crew was simply amazing, and even the Captain and First Officer invited me to a visit of the flightdeck (after we landed of course) and gave me the opportunity to have a quick chat with them. Nice and friendly chaps, just like the rest of the crew that day. A week after the flight I actually wrote a letter to BA (a first for me) to let them know how much I enjoyed that flight and the crew, but I never heard anything back from BA, so I am wondering if maybe my letter got lost. So I am planning to write another letter, this time naming the crew if possible. My line of thinking is that maybe this way the letter will carry more weight and maybe even the crewmembers of that day will somehow benefit by it. Hence my question.
If you can give me details or tell me how to obtain these details, please feel free to contact me via Private Message or email. In case the flight details are necessary, it was flight BA203 on April 15th from EGLL to KDTW, aircraft was a B763.

Thanks a lot, everyone!

Andre

[Anti-ice]

I love the md-11 too, and believ some of your questions can be answered here:

MD-11 thread (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=104860&perpage=15&pagenumber=4)

[mutt]

In response to some of your questions.....

1: Dial-a-flap, not sure if this originated from the DC10, but we have it on our MD11's and MD-90s, the idea is that the crew can turn a wheel to selected any number of takeoff flap settings. The main advantage is that you get the flap setting most suited to a particular runway. Disadvantage, increases the chance of crew input error.

2: 10-28°.

5: 30 mins hold, diversion fuel and 10% contingency, 15,000 kgs might be close.

6: M83

I'm surprised that you didnt ask about the drooping ailerons.....


Mutt.

[woderick]

Agree about the drooping ailrons inherited from the '10 I expect.
"Dial-a Flap" is a McD thing, goes back to at least the DC8 maybe further but I'm not that old. Certainly everything from the '8 thru the whole 9 series up to the 717 and the 10 series, which for me includes the 11 had/have it.
I would like to know how far back it goes 7, 6, 4, Was it on the DC3 ?

[Flightmech]

Hi Andre

To clarify a few more points

4. Yes, the centre gear has the same brakes as the main gears, provided with pressure from both #1 and #3 hydraulic systems for a total of 10 operating brakes.

6. M83 or M85 if making up time and costs dont matter!

7. 3-1-2 is our company sop for start sequence.

8. Never seen #2 used as an APU but i'm sure its been done somewhere, sometime, particularly on those odd charter or military destinations.

Also, although not mentioned the deflected aileron system on all our mad-dogs have been deactivated. The saving in t/o performance was far less than the problems we had with it!

And yes, i agree, a fine machine!!

[Engineer]

Here goes

1 Variable flap setting allows the best selection between field lenght and second segment climb limit

2 Flap setting will be determined by weight altitude and temperature on the day at that particular runway

4 Use of reverse and lenght of runway limits the use of braking.
Centre gear does have brakes.

5 Minimum has to be trip fuel required for diversion plus max 10%plus a 30 minute reverse for holding at alternate at 1500' This figure will depend on distance to diversion. Or if no alternate available fuel for 2 hours holding at destination This is referred to as island holding

6 Long range cruise for economy others as required to make up time

7 3 1 2

8 Yes KLM used a procedure on the DC10 in event of APU u/s

9 No2 eng would be the candidate for this procedure

Hope it helps

[Bokomoko]

1. What is the concept of the "dial-a-flap" technique? How does it work? Can a pilot select any flaps-angle he/she likes as opposed to the fixed values found in Boeing and Airbus machines? If so, what are the advantages, what the disadvantages?
Basically the entire concept is absolutely alien to me and I would love to hear whatever you have to say about it.
Additionally, different from DC10, dial-a-flap can be used during approach. Pilots can adjust an intermediate flap setting (normally 15) between zero/extended (flaps up and slats down) and flaps 28 fixed detents... And flight attendants appreciate it very much because that setting avoids a high nose up during leveled approach phase.

2. Kind of related to the first question, what are typical flaps settings for takeoff and landings?
Takeoff Range is between 10 and 25. Landing, 35 and 50.
Flaps 28 are used only for approach, go around and during takeoff with deflected ailerons.

3. What is the max. angle of flaps retraction without the landing gear being extended?
Retraction or extension? Well, landing gear warning will provide an aural warning for unsafe landing configuration when any gear is not down and locked and flaps in landing configuration or any gear not down and locked any throttle retarded to idle, airspeed less than 210kt and flaps not in landing configuration. But situations above are not routine and flaps 28 setting is the last flap position before extending landing gear and landing flaps.

4. How difficult is it to fly the MD-11, especially in the approach/touchdown phase of the flight? Does the high approach speed make a difference when compared to other types you have been flying? Does it require an entirely different technique, or is it the same as every other aircraft out there, except for the fact that the world goes by a little faster? How hard is it to brake the MD-11 down to taxispeed, taking into consideration that it is quite fast and heavy and needs to rely on only 8 wheels equipped with brakes (I am assuming the center gear is not brake-equipped, right?)
Reference speeds are high but ‘controllable’. At maximum landing weight (approximately 200 tons) Vref for flaps 35 is 155 kt and for flaps 50, 150 kt. I flew 737 for many years and used to landing at La Paz/Bolivia, an airport 13,000ft above sea level, with flaps 15 and approach speed around 150 kt. However, due to a high true airspeed, ground speeds usually indicated 185 to 190 kt. A really high speed approach under normal operation. MD11 brakes are very efficient and its thrust reversers are very good as well. Caution must be exercised if auto spoilers are inoperative on wet and short runways.

5. What is a typical fuel reserve left in the tanks when arriving at the destination? A friend of mine once told me it is usually in the 15 to 20 ton bracket, but I find that a little hard to believe.
It depends. Usually, they have enough fuel to fly from destination to the alternate, plus additionally 30 minutes minus fuel used during taxi-in to the gate at destination. However, if a specific airline uses an economic fuel tankering to avoid high fuel prices on some intermediate destinations they can have much more than 20 tons in the tanks.

6. What is a typical Mach number for the cruise, and how fast can the MD-11 go if costs are not a consideration? Somewhat related, what is the max. FL the MD-11 can reach in perfect conditions?
Once again, it depends. Airlines use a cost index number for every route. Normally Mach .82 to .83 are used on long haul flights. Maximum speed envelope is from 350 kt to 365 kt and M.85 to M.87 but there’re several restrictions regarding altitude, fuel in the tanks, etc. Maximum operating altitude is 43,200ft, but it’s hard to fly above FL410.

7. What is the starting order of the engines? Is it the usual 1, 2, 3, or maybe something totally different like 2, 1, 3? I´m asking because engine #2 is so high up in the air that it could be started while still on the stand without endangering anyone on the ramp.
8. Again related to the previous question, can engine #2 serve as makeshift-APU if the "real" APU is u/s? Does it ever happen in the real world? I´ve never seen an MD-11 sitting at the gate with engine #2 running at idle, so I am assuming it just simply doesn´t happen. Then again I may just not have seen it yet, so how knows...
Normally 3, 1 and 2. However, if the APU is inoperative it’s operational to start engine number 2 at gate (using an external air unit) and then during push back cross bleed starts to engines 3 and 1 using engine 2 bleed air supply.

9. Is it common practice to shut down an engine on taxi-in like it is on some other aircraft? I do realize that this is also airline- and/or PIC-specific, but can it be done, and if yes, how often does it happen? Also, is it engine #2 that will be shut down in this case (so you will still have symmetric (spelling?) thrust), or is it for some strange reason another engine that will be shut down?
Yes, and usually engine number 2, 2-3 minutes after landing, if conditions permit.

Bkmk

[EFP058]

Thank you very much gents, your responses are much appreciated! :D It´s very nice to finally get the answers to some of these questions, even more so when it´s pros like you who provide those answers.

To get back to the dial-a-flap thingmie, could you guys please elaborate on it? What kind of experiences have you made with it, do you like it, do you hate it? Why, why not? Is it easy to make mistakes or is the system rather foolproof (of course that doesn´t necessarily mean it´s also pilot-proof... hehe ;) ). How do you know when to select what angle? I sort of doubt it is a thing of experience, but flipping through charts to find out what angle is best doesn´t really sound too thrilling either, especially during those busy phases of flight. Does some computer tell you what angle would be optimal? If so, do you always stick to that suggestion or do you alter from it?

As you can probably tell, this entire dial-a-flap concept is really interesting to me, especially since no other aircraft outside the MDD family uses it. I am wondering why that is. Do the disadvantages outweigh the advantages? If that is the case, why did MDD stick to the concept for so long? And vice versa, if the advantages outweigh the disadvantages, why does no other manufacturer pick this idea up?

As for the drooping ailerons, I had no idea the MD-11 has these. Even worse, I have absolutely no idea what "drooping" is supposed to mean, my dictionary shows exactly zero entries for this term.
Am I right in assuming it means the ailerons lower a certain amount when flaps are selected, so they act as "mini-flaps"?

[Bokomoko]

In order to supply all required data in a simple way and also take advantage of the MD-11 flaps flexibility for takeoff, Flight Operations Department prepares an operational data manual that includes a series of airport analyses based on Optimum Takeoff Flap.
All weights presented in the Optimum Flap format are the highest takeoff weights at any given set of runway and operating condition. Performance data is based on the takeoff flap setting that allows the highest second segment limiting weight without exceeding the runway length available, and all related speeds (V1, Vr, V2, etc) are presented too. Therefore, pilots only need to consult that manual prior to departure setting the FMC, dial-a-flap and flap position handle in accordance with the prepared performance data table.
Takeoff deflected ailerons were implemented during A1 Performance Improvement Program. In 1991, MDC came up with a drag reduction program to be implemented in 3 phases. A1 package 3 included an additional modification to the ailerons, enabling them to droop (to lean over) during takeoff. With the ailerons deflected a higher Maximum Takeoff Weight is permitted. For takeoff only, the neutral position of the aileron is 15 degrees trailing edge down on the outboard ailerons and 11.5 degrees trailing edge down on the inboard ailerons.
Bkmk

[Continuous Ignition]

Howdy all,

I just flew back from HNL to LAX on NWA 930 (a DC10-30) on 29 Oct and I met someone pretty interesting...

I saw this elderly gentleman peeking around the corner of the terminal building to see an ATA B757-300 push back and he muttered something about that airplane looking like a stretch DC-8 because it was so long.

I got to talking to him and explained what airplane that was and told him I worked for an airline as a maintenance technician and he said that he used to work on them too albeit years and years ago.

He opened up his billfold and took out one of his business cards and it read Harold W. Adams, McDonnell Douglas Corp. "Chief Designer"

He went on to explain that he had worked for Douglas from the 1930s till 1970 something and was the Chief Design Engineer on the DC-9 and DC-10 programs as well as worked on all the other "DC" programs in the past in varying capacities..

He has since retired to the Philippines and was traveling to Long Beach for a reunion of old Douglas Employees.

I was lucky enough to sit behind him on our flight back to the mainland. What an interesting character to talk to.. Man, the things that guy has seen in his time.. Talk about being around in aviations glory days!

He told me that he wrote a book about his experiences at Douglas and it can be found at www.douglasbook.com

I am planning on ordering mine tomorrow...

Sadly this guy doesn't look like he will be with us much longer.. He's rather long in the tooth.. But for an old DC-9 and DC-10 mechanic, it was a pleasure to meet the father of those wonderful machines.. His designs have sure stood the test of time with the follow on models, the B717 and MD-11.
--------------------
Don't like it? Don't look at it!

[EFP058]

Wow... What an interesting character to talk to indeed. For some weird reason the only persons who ever sit around me in an airplane are either crying babies, elderly women who, while being really nice otherwise, insist on telling you about their latest medical history in minute detail or people who are so incredibly afraid of flying they actually start to pray when the speedbrakes are deployed, because "oh my god, the wing is falling apart, we are all going to die!" (had that one on a recent trip on a B752 from EGLL to EDDL. I felt sorry for her but had to chuckle nevertheless).

Anyway, thanks for the link to the book, I plan on ordering a copy as well. Can´t get enough of that kind of reading. :)