Mode S... in a Luton Minor?!

[QDMQDMQDM]

Come 2008 are these people really serious that the Luton Minor based at Eggesford, without an electrical system, used to hop around the North Devon countryside on sunny days, is going to be required to have an operating Mode S transponder?

Flying around from strip to strip, talking to no-one, with no electrical equipment functioning, enjoying the pure freedom of the air, is sublime. I don't want anyone tracking my every movement (not that there is radar coverage here anyway, but that's not the point) and knowing what I'm up to.

This really gets my goat. What happened to individual freedoms? How dare they do this to us.

B#stards.

[Evo]

Does this really apply to all aeroplanes? As I understand it, "Mode S in 2008" is a mix of a "transponder in all aircraft" requirement from ICAO and the CAA's desire to have Mode S replace Modes A and C. However, I thought that the exact meaning of "all aircraft" was still to be decided and aircraft with no electrical systems (including gliders) were likely to be exempt?

If all does mean every last Luton Minor and Evans VP-1 then I agree, what b@stards. It is bad enough to force people with a CofA to spend the better part of five grand on a transponder, but it's downright daft to expect a permit aeroplane with no electrical system to have one of any type. But if all does mean all then I wonder if it's partially our fault. Are the powers that be even aware that it's going to screw over a large number of basic PFA aeroplanes, or have we done such a poor job of representing ourselves that they have no idea that these aeroplanes even exist?

[Genghis the Engineer]

I've heard some Eurocrats claiming that mode S will have to be on larger model aircraft, hang-gliders, gliders and parachutists - as well as tens of thousands of microlights and simple homebuilts across Europe.

Oh yes, and if you look at the RF power a transponder puts out, you really don't want to be near the antenna. Fine inside a metal box with the antenna on the outside, but a wooden or GRP aircraft? Best reserved for people who have finished breeding!

G

[chrisN]

My understanding is the same as that of Ghengis, with the caveat that I gather the UK CAA have said that mandating it will be contingent upon development of a satisfactory technical solution - the so-called light weight, low cost, transponder. The specification is, I believe, for modes A and C with the possibility of adding elementary Mode S at a later date. The mock-up I saw years ago included a self-contained battery.

Trials with a prototype have taken place. I understand they were satisfactory.

I know of no commercial marketing plan yet. There may be a three-sided chicken-and-egg situation - the makers won't go commercial until the demand is there for volume production, that won't happen until it becomes mandatory, and the CAA won't mandate it unless it is available, if I believe everything I have heard.

Start saving your pennies now - and think of where you are going to put the thing, which might be on a strap round your neck if there is no room on the panel.

Chris N.

[LowNSlow]

QDM x 3 I had a whinge on the PFA website about this a while ago. I was assured that the PFA, AOPA, RSA et al had the situation under control. I hope they do but I don't think that the eurocrats are going to listen to a bunch of part-time aviators when the "greater good" of commercial air transport is perceived to be at risk.

My stance is simple:

If the governmnet feels that commercial operators' safety is compromised by us enjoying ourselves thousands of feet below the airways (well, 99% of the time) then "they" (government either local or Europe-wide) should fund the development of a cheap, light, portable Mode S Transponder. And supply it free to all aircraft owners. And send each owner a lifetime subscription to Duracell.

If Mode S is imposed upon us without recourse, they can shove their radio licence fee, and their Annual / Star Annual fee and their extortionate duty on AvGas cos Mrs. LowNSlow's little boy will be doing something else with his time and spare cash!!!!! I won't need my licence either after I park the Auster in the Belgrano car park and lots of time to enjoy the extra disposable income while spending time in one of Her Majesty's rest homes like good old Geoff Archer..........

[BEagle]

I took this up recently at AOPA. Martin assures me that they have workable proposals.

But, having spent £17500 for the privilege of being able to fly my 4 ac under IFR in Class D airspace thanks to the FM immunity issue, to spend even more on Mode S when only the TMAs will get Mode S interrogators for some considerable time seems nonsensical. One thing we should do is to consider whether we need so much Class D airspace - why on earth Brize Norton and Lyneham should have it when Exeter and Humberside cope without is beyond comprehension.......

There needs to be some god PR over this - perhaps all those flying on the Dec 17 'Century of Flight' day will make the point that they all managed to do so without Mode S......

[Oscar Duece]

What has me worried from a PFA point of view. Is the big brother, spy aspect.
With these Mode S units, unlike the current A or C, they know who you are, registration wise.
Now I have often been confused by the permit aircraft operating remit of 'not over build up areas'. So will someone now be looking at a scope, looking at registrations, investigation infringements of use ??.
May all sound a bit far fetched, but I don't want to be the first in court to argue it.
As for those who without dc power. Do you really fancy hanging a radar receiver round your neck, or strapped to your leg next to your nether regions. :uhoh:

[IO540]

So will someone now be looking at a scope, looking at registrations, investigation infringements of use ??.

I don't want to be supporting mandatory Mode S but I think it should be said that many places you walk you are already on cameras (thankfully, in my view, if it reduces street crime) and similarly when you drive somewhere.

Already, anybody can look up your name and home address on the CAA website (NOT GOOD) - unless you run the plane under a ltd co. and use your accountant as the registered office.... then HE gets all the mailshots from the CAA and has to pass them on to you.

Almost where-ever you fly you get picked up on somebody's radar; most of the UK is covered somehow, unofficially, and most of this data gets taped. So the powers to be can track you from your takeoff to your landing if they really wanted to. What they can't do is tell your altitude though! But why would broadcasting your altitude bother you, unless you are busting CAS?

Also mandatory Mode C at least would finally make TAS/TCAS worth having - however I am aware that GA mid-airs are very rare so the safety case isn't made.

Technically, the AVERAGE power emitted by a XP is very low and there is no reason why a cheap unit powered by a small battery (weighing about 0.5kg) could not be made. I work in this business and can tell you that the direct manufacturing cost of a typical £3000 avionics item is about £300; the rest is mark-up resulting from the manufacturer being a company (usually a very old one, with lots of middle managers and clue-less salesmen) far too big for the relatively low volumes being made. And no established avionics player will want to bomb the price - why should they?

But someone new could do it. The commercial risk is that Mode S might never become mandatory for VFR outside of CAS and your R&D will have been largely wasted. But a newcomer to the business needs early cash flow - however anyone hanging around GA will immediately realise that CASH is positively the last thing anyone is going to get flowing OUT of the average flying school :O And unless the thing is made absolutely mandatory, most schools would avoid spending the money because most can do PPL training VFR outside CAS. No wonder not a lot is visibly happening yet. Anybody who knows the specs could knock up a simple XP in no time at all - it is basically 1970s technology.

[PPRuNe Towers]

As far as I know the trials earlier this year were of a mode S compatible - not compliant and functioning - transponder. CAA sanctioned and supported and, thus, I would think indicative of them resisting the full wishlist from Europe.

Rob

[IO540]

The bit I read about the CAA unit was that it was low-power but sufficient to work well with TCAS systems interrogating it from not many miles away.

[Circuit Basher]

Text of this posting deleted as it was meant to be posted under 'Mode C on a Battery' thread - oops!! :) := http://www.click-smilies.de/sammlung0903/alles_moegliche/mixed-smiley-006.gif http://www.click-smilies.de/sammlung0903/alles_moegliche/mixed-smiley-023.gif

Talk amongst yourselves, chaps and chapesses!

[QDMQDMQDM]

I took this up recently at AOPA. Martin assures me that they have workable proposals.

Workable for whom?

I don't care whether they bring out a lightweight Mode S which works off a battery. I don't see why it must be mandatory for all aircraft at all times. It's overkill.

The only 'workable' solution is not to make it compulsory in absurd situations. Law makers have long recognised there is no point making a law which is both universally unpopular and more or less unenforceable.

[ETOPS773]

Well if being seen on radar bothers you so much..you might be interested in knowing there is a kit plane,made by a US company,based in florida,which was selling very well in south america recently.

No one could figure out why until the FAA finally realised its composite materials and design made it almost stealth :cool:

[ozplane]

The scene: Farm strip West of Cambridge. Mission: Coffee and a sandwich at Fenland. So off I chug in my 115 hp Airtourer for the 25 minute trip. No radio at our strip but I gave Wyton a call so I could route overhead and also got basic info from Fenland on arrival. Ditto on the way back. I could have routed round Wyton and phoned for a non-radio arrival at Fenland thu snegating the need for a radio. I didn't see a single aircraft in the 60 minutes I was airbourne. So absolutely no need for a transponder and I could have manged without the radio. I'm sure a lot of pilots do this sort of trip, so what possible benefit would there be in Mode S.
Lest you think I'm a Luddite I do have a transponder with Mode C but it would have been of no value at all yesterday or indeed 90% of my trips..

[Ludwig]

How will the radar screens round the country look with all this new information flashing up?

We could have a new GA sport; TCAS alerting. Let's all fly along the base of airways, mingle round beacons and see how much TCAS related disruption we can cause.

I suppose, if they have a legally enforceable way of noteing when we are in the air and where they could introduce a tax sytem that charges for being airborne, with differing rates depending on where you are, £1 a miniute in rural Cambridgeshire, changing to £5 a minute through the Manchester low level corridor. Would be easy with computerised recognision, billed automatically using a/c registration details on another computer.:mad:

[Oscar Duece]

Thinking about it, this could have a very negative impact on aircraft values, even grounding some as a result.
If things stand as they do, it's going to cost £ 3,500 for a mode S. Some aircraft, VP1, Fred are only just worth that alone.

This could really finish of the fun, low ish cost flying. The sooner we cast off europe and become the 53rd US state the better, well from an aviation point anyway.

[Kingy]

Only 1 of my aircraft has a radio fitted, I virtually never use it. 90% of my flying is within open fir between uncontrolled grass strips. All this Mode 'S' business is just completely stupid. I have aircraft worth less than the equipment alone. What about microlights, Gliders, Hang gliders, Paragliders?... radio controlled models for that matter... its just not going to be practical to fit mode 's' any of these types.

Just picture the scene - Old Warden, beautiful summers day, and a collection of edwardian aircraft unable to make hops without a Mode 's' transponder fitted! what a load of B*llocks!

I'm not going to fit this equipment to my aircraft and they can take me to court i don't care.

B*stards

Kingy

[QDMQDMQDM]

I'm not going to fit this equipment to my aircraft and they can take me to court i don't care.

And I think that's an important point. If it comes to it, if enough of us don't do it they will have a lot of trouble on their hands.

[A and C]

The fact of the matter is that "mode S" will only become a requirment if it is practical to fit.

At the moment the mode S transponders on the market are not practical for gliders , microlights and older aircraft without electrical systems , The CAA know this and have commissioned research program for a low cost low power consumption mode S transponder.

Untill such equipment reaches the market mode S for some aircraft will be inpractical and unenforcable in law.

The technical problems are not to large and just think of the advantages , you will show up on the TCAS of the faster moving traffic and if euorcontrol getts its act together even the light singles will have a form of TCAS and realtime weather radar images.

Twenty years ago who would have thought that a bit of kit that can place you to within 20 feet of any place on this planet would have cost under £300 and run on two small batterys , the mode S transponder will go the same way as the GPS and we will all look back and wonder what all the fuss was about.

[chrisN]

A&C wrote: ". . if euorcontrol getts its act together even the light singles will have a form of TCAS and realtime weather radar images"

------------------

I had not heard of these - are they already Eurocontrol initiatives, or on their "to do" list? Or is it suggested that GA should try to get them to take it on?

Chris N.

[A and C]

The whole thing is up and running in the USA , eurocontrol have all the hardware for the TCAS side of this but at the moment the software is not installed , I have no idea what they are doing about real time weather images.

www.bendixking.com/static/catalog/viewproductdetails.jsp?pid=207

Will show you the sort of equipment that will show this data.

[Flap40]

At the moment the mode S transponders on the market are not practical for gliders , microlights and older aircraft without electrical systems , The CAA know this and have commissioned research program for a low cost low power consumption mode S transponder.

I hate to say it, but there IS a cheap(er) (under £2k) Mode S available that is designed for gliders etc and is low power consumption (0.1A) so can run off a battery. It also has the height encoder built-in.

[Genghis the Engineer]

But at a bit under £2k that's still more than half the value otherwise of many cheap gliders or microlights, and more than the total value of one or two.

G

[A and C]

I have to agree with Genghis that 2K is to expencive and the mode S will only become practical when the cost reaches that of the hand held GPS units that are on the market today.

I would expect the price to fall with mass production.

[Flap40]

But they have been "mass producing" mode A/C transponders for years and they are still approx £1200. I do realise that there will be many who can't afford even that, but I was trying to point out that if you look beyond Garmin/King you can halve the price of mode S (if you want to!). I'm currently building a Europa, and since I'll need a transponder to visit parents/inlaws in Jersey, I'm fitting mode S because I can see no point in paying £1200 now and £2000 in 2008.
The only thing that you can be certain of is that they will be cheaper a year after implementation!

[astir 8]

Given that my favourite form of aviation is any glider built 40+ years ago,is made of wood, preferably doesn't have a cockpit canopy and is certainly valued at less than £2k by the insurers, I would regard "expensive" as anything much more than £200.


It would also need to be easily moved from one aircraft to another 'cos I wouldn't want to buy a transponder for each one I fly!

So something akin to a cheap GPS or I join the "antis" very smartly!

PS as I understand it, if everything had a transponder, ATC would then have to install software to screen out most of the slow moving "clutter" - so why put it in to start with?

[Evo]

PS as I understand it, if everything had a transponder, ATC would then have to install software to screen out most of the slow moving "clutter" - so why put it in to start with?


Even if ATC filter it out, I presume your transponder is still useful for TCAS-equipped aeroplanes?

[astir 8]

Well I only fly my wooden gliders in open airspace. I assume that most of the cheaper powered aircraft do the same. Would you care to estimate how many TCAS equipped aircraft are out there with us at any given time?



The whole transponder issue smacks strongly of EU bureaucrats heavily influenced by the ATC/airline lobby to me

[SKYYACHT]

Ludwig.....loved the idea of multiple TCAS.....Kingy and QDMx3 ...agree completely......I wonder how soon they would lose interest if the courts were overloaded with articulate individuals defending their right to fly safely without the dead hand of EASA/JAA nannying them along.....Long live freedom to do our own thing.

Rant over.



:mad: