How much does WX affect IMC training?

[In Altissimus]

In the spirit that there is no such thing as a dumb question...

How much is the weather likely to affect training for the IMC?

I'm hoping to do an intensive course - but am trying to decide whether to go the US route, my plane locally, or a package-deal elsewhere in the UK.

Any opinions welcome.

[Evo]

Depends where you are flying from. Doing the training in real IMC is no problem (it's an advantage, really - much better than simulated with foggles) but you need to get back home afterwards. There's no IAP where I fly from, so we need the normal wx to get back down. If you have an instructor with an IR and you have some kind of instrument approach at your home airfield then you can train in most weather conditions.

edit: Thought of one more thing - Ice may be an issue if you're training in the UK midwinter.

[Charlie Zulu]

Hi In Altissimus,

This time of year, when the onset of winter is rapidly approaching and the temperatures dip, you may find Icing will be a factor. Say on the ground it is 4 degrees, as low as 2,000' could put you in icing conditions if you're in visibile moisture and that just doesn't mean cloud, it also means rain showers etc.

Also as Evo suggests if you're home airfield doesn't have published IAP approaches then you'll need at least basic VFR weather to get back down. If, however your field has an ILS and you have an FM Immune aircraft (if in controlled airspace) then you can go back in on an IFR clearance to the lower minimums if you're instructor has an IR.

Another point is if there is a strong wind at altitude across the published hold you are trying to fly... it'll make life very difficult in the early days of IR training (or IMC training in this case).

Also may not be a wise idea to try an NDB approach at a coastal airfield at night with thunderstorms off the coast, if you do, then you may see some interesting results with the ADF (or RMI if you're very lucky) needle. (No prizes for guessing which State of America I did my IR in!). :-)

Best wishes,

Charlie Zulu.

[Aerobatic Flyer]

The best IMC lessons I had were the ones that were in lousy weather - real IMC, light icing at some altitudes, cloudbase round about the minimum allowed for an IMC holder, etc.

It showed that there is a world of difference between real IMC and flying on a sunny day wearing foggles. I did one flight which was a simple VOR navex where we were in cloud all the time. I found it much harder than the partial panel work I did using foggles.

I'd do the course in the UK, and hope for slightly grotty weather most days!

[IO540]

I agree that IMCR/IR should be taught in actual IMC whenever possible. Foggles are dreadful things which make it very hard to read the chart whole doing an instrument scan etc.

However, I found that a) no instructor was willing to do this, possibly because one cannot get RIS locally to me and b) no flying school plane I have ever been in would have been IFR legal in CAS, due to non-working (or non FM immune) avionics.

The avionics problem also means that if you are going to do an IAP on which you will hit terrain if the instruments are defective, no instructor will want to do the IAP in IMC. I have flown with DMEs which read a perfectly reasonable (but very wrong) figure and yet ident correctly, and same with VORs. But if a plane is flown VFR-only, these instruments don't officially need to work so don't need to be tested, which saves a lot of money on the cost of the maintenance. I know one local NDB/DME IAP on which such a dodgy DME will easily kill you.

[FlyingForFun]

Presumably, if you're training for an IMC rating, you have an aircraft availabe which is equipped for flight in IMC? Otherwise, why bother doing the training? In which case, it can't be too difficult to arrange for this properly equipped aircraft to be used for training, can it?

Ok, I agree pre-emptively with everyone who's going to say that the training improves your skills even if you never use it - but it does seem a little pointless, you have to agree?

FFF
------------

[shortstripper]

In my case ... a lot!

I did the IMC test on a crappy day and the weather reduced to below minima before I finished. The test had to be called off and I could only be given a partial to take into account the area of the test that was done. Unfortunately, money, work ect conspired to stop me returning in the time allowed and the partial lapsed. I never went back to complete :sad: That said, I enjoyed the training, found flying on instruments a doddle, but not exactly fun. As it was only intended as a safety feature and my flying tends to be in PFA types anyway I haven't felt the need to do it again. Maybe one day when I strike rich! lol, I'll re do it all

IM

[IO540]

FFF

Presumably, if you're training for an IMC rating, you have an aircraft availabe which is equipped for flight in IMC? Otherwise, why bother doing the training? In which case, it can't be too difficult to arrange for this properly equipped aircraft to be used for training, can it?

I am convinced that most of the people who do the IMCR have not realised that to make proper use of the Rating they will need a properly IFR-legal plane. Very very few students know the equipment regs, FM immunity, etc. It's only when you become an owner or a group member that you start to learn stuff like that.

I spent more time digging into this than most but still found myself nearly purchasing a share in a private COFA plane with a duff ADF - after explaining to a group member (who is a multi-engine IR instructor!) that I wanted to do my IMC Rating in it and fly it afterwards. As they say, go figure!

If training for the IMCR but in VMC (with foggles and a safety pilot) which is how it's normally done then the aircraft does not legally need to have anything in particular working (beyond the VFR equipment).

I suppose that someone might question charging a student £120/hr for NDB hold training if the ADF barely works, or is installed right over at the other end of the panel, etc, etc, but if you start doing that you will question an awful lot of things in this business.

It would be nice if there was at least 1 aircraft available for IMCR training in which everything worked 100% but I've never seen such a plane operated by any school. I am familiar with one setup where such a plane was available to a school for advanced training but not available for subsequent self fly hire (for obvious reasons!) and there were no takers.

[onehunga]

A lot is the answer to your question. Well up here in the NE anyway. Fog rolling in conspired to cancel a flight last week. And Monday nights session was put off due to winds gusting 25-30 knots. On other ocassions I have also been cancelled once or twice for cloud base below minimums. I am in the fortunate position of having a decent job so can book in twice a week and "usually" get away with at least 1 flight a week which helps to keep my hand in.

[FlyingForFun]

It would be nice if there was at least 1 aircraft available for IMCR training in which everything worked 100% but I've never seen such a plane operated by any schoolI'm surprised, and possibly even a little shocked, by this statement. I guess I didn't realise how lucky I was.

My school has at least two aircraft which are fully equipped for flight in airways: both of their Cessnas have two radios each with a main/standby frequency facility, two VORs also with main/standby frequency, one with ILS, ADF, DME, GPS, single-axis auto-pilot.....

In addition to the Cessnas, several of their PA28s are also suitable for practical instrument flying, although the gear is not quite so new. To be honest, watching the ADF needle remain stationary for a while, then jump by 10 degrees or more, when flying abeam an NDB didn't do much for my confidence in the instrument - but I know that many of the school's customers (as well as instructors) regularly fly these aircraft in IMC.

Like I said, I guess I'm just lucky.

FFF
-----------

[Kirstey]

Actually Evo there is an IAP where you fly from. I believe the Police Helo and Air Ambulance are the only ones allowed to do it and they have a discreet frequency to do it on!

Thats my dull fact for the week!

k

[Aerobatic Flyer]

FFF

I guess I didn't realise how lucky I was.

Yup! At my last IMC renewal, I got a clapped out Cherokee 140, with a 720 channel radio (so I couldn't get the departure ATIS...), one VOR/ILS, an ADF that had a mind of its own, and a DME display that kept going blank (sometimes if I hit it hard enough, it recovered temporarily). :(

That's probably the bottom of the scale for IMC training, and in fairness to the club concerned their fully equipped aircraft was unexpectedly out of action... But some of the aircraft around are pretty hopeless.

[Evo]

Actually Evo there is an IAP where you fly from. I believe the Police Helo and Air Ambulance are the only ones allowed to do it and they have a discreet frequency to do it on!


I'm doing the IMC at Lee-on-Solent, not Goodwood. With some of the aeroplanes based there (esp rotary) I'd guess there is some kind of unofficial procedure based around the 'secret' NDB that doesn't seem to appear on the charts. I know a procedure was drafted and submitted (by my IMC instructor) but it ain't available to us now :)

I believe the Goodwood VOR/DME procedure requires permission from the CAA. AFAIK only the Air Ambulance King Airs use it, but they are flown by two CPL/IRs with good kit and there's no way the rest of us would be allowed to. Minima must be quite low because they manage to arrive in some really bad wx sometimes.

[IO540]

Fly Stimulator

The question you might like to ask yourself is "what sort of plane am I going to fly when I've got the IMCR, for the number of hours a year I need to keep current?"

It is no wonder that nearly every IMCR I bump into is an expired one.

It's a real shame, because the IMCR really expands one's options flying in the UK, and is very handy abroad too, indirectly. It's great to be able to plan and navigate every flight as IFR, even when (on the day) it is actually flown VFR in which case you get a bonus: a view.

But you still need a decent plane.....

[Kirstey]

Apologies Evo I assumed you were at Goodwood still. The procedure is pretty straight forward (can't be too hard with a VOR/DME on the extended centerline!). The issue is the level of ATC provided.

Their VDF shouldn't be used for anything other than training purposes at Goodwood either as it's a piece of ATC kit as opposed to AFIS kit.