How long to wait before taking your first passengers up???

[vfr-uk]

I've asked this question on another thread - but it was suggested I start a new one, so:
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......I'm on the verge of getting my license......

... out of interest - how many hours do people spend practicising by themselves before taking passenger(s) with them? I know you can do it straight away (assuming you're up-to-date on the hours/landings) - but personally I think I'll wait a few months of solo 'practice' flight before I take people with me....

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The answers so far are at the end of this:

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=97633

[Aerobatic Flyer]

Did about 10 hours on my own before taking anyone.

Mostly that was because I did my PPL in Holland, and wanted to get the hang of a new aeroplane / charts / terrain / etc. before taking passengers.

When you take someone, make sure they understand that there will be moments when you don't want them asking questions. And if you take children, expect them to be unimpressed!

[DuncanF]

Interesting thread. I'm in the same boat having finished my PPL last week. Of course the CAA make the decision for you by taking time to issue the license proper. So no passengers until then, just little ol' me. ;)

However, my view is - and I stand to be corrected, flamed and (er) shot down on this - I'm not God's gift to piloting, but I am safe and I can fly the plane and that's one of the reasons they passed me in the first place.

Sure, this is a license to learn, and over the next period my nav will get better, my RT will be less like an awkward first date and my landings will bring less mirth for the assembled throng. But if I thought I was going to plant the thing and do myself harm then I certainly wouldn't get in it, let alone ask passengers!

I have friends all lining up for jaunts when the paperwork comes through, but I'll build up slowly. One passenger and local or short trips to begin with. And as my experience grows, and I check out on bigger aircraft, then maybe longer trips and more on board.

Bottom line? As long as I feel comfortable, safe and stress free, my passengers should be too. My FI's mantra is "we don't do stress". Something I'll bear in mind each time I look at the whole planned flight (craft, length, passengers, weather etc..).

All IMHO, of course, and any and all feedback most wellcome.

Duncan

[Marco_71]

I think this depends on the pilot AND the passenger.

If you just got your license, perhaps your landings are a little wobbly and hard on the wheels and the passenger is the nervous kind... that's not a good combo IMHO.

After I take my license (still some time before I get there) I would probably have no problem taking another pilot up for a ride (worst that can happen he'll make fun of my landing... heck, I make fun of my landings! :} ).

If i had to take a scared passenger up ... I would wait until I get at least another 100 landings on my logbook and choose a very smooth day to fly for the trip ... (no 18015G20 on runway 27 thankyouverymuch). I really don't want to scare the daylights out of him/her with one of my "good" landings... :sad:

[Gertrude the Wombat]

There's a whole new thing to learn with passengers, which is the passenger briefing. In theory, the documentation for the test suggests that the examiner behaved like a passenger and expected you to give him a proper passenger briefing, in practice I've never heard of that happening, so there's at least a chance that you've never been taught how to do it.

My first trip with a passenger, two things happened.

One was that the door on his side of the plane popped open in flight. I got that one right - I reached over, pulled the door shut, and pointed out that the door was only there to keep the wind off him, the seatbelt was what kept him in the aircraft.

The other was that he spent the whole flight worrying about being sick (he wasn't actually sick), because he didn't think there was a sick bag on the aircraft, because I didn't show him where it was in my briefing. I got that one wrong. I've never got it wrong since.

[Monocock]

As a freshly qualified pilot you'll be looking hard at speeds and your lookout will be good etc. I wouldn't be too afraid of taking someone up after a couple of solo hours to get used to the idea of actually being qualified.

DONT do what I did though! I took two (large) friends up and the plane was a different beast altogether. Go for one person the first few times and then put a third in when you are really ready for it. Dont forget, you are responsible for the person in the back and you should regularly ask them if they are comfortable etc.

[Fly Stimulator]

sstreet,

Don't underestimate how distracting passengers can be, especially when things are still far from second nature to you. You will feel under more pressure and they won't necessarily realise when you need to concentrate. They probably won’t be able to follow the RT exchanges at all and so will start to talk to you just as ATC gives you some vital information; they’ll ask you a question just as you're trying to sort out a tricky crosswind approach; they may be alarmed at seeing another aircraft two miles away etc. You will be looking after them as well as flying the aircraft and the workload can build up quite fast.

A good pre-flight briefing will go a long way to help, especially as it sounds as if your potential passengers are fully aware that you're newly qualified and should therefore understand that you will need to devote yourself to the flying and not to them for a lot of the time. A sensible choice of the type of person you take on the early flights is essential, though you can sometimes be quite wrong about who will love the experience and who won’t.

Don't let thoughts of disappointing the passengers make you press on into poor conditions instead of turning back (or not taking off at all) or worries about looking foolish make you press on with landing that's not working out instead of going around.

Do get them involved by asking them to help with keeping a good lookout for other aircraft and the like, and of course do mention little points like those pedals down there aren't footrests!

Above all, take care and have a good flight!

[Aerobatic Flyer]

they’ll ask you a question just as you're trying to sort out a tricky crosswind approach

If you expect a tricky crosswind approach, it's worth briefing your passengers about it beforehand - if they aren't pilots. I remember a passenger of mine being frightened during a crosswind approach - he couldn't understand why the runway was off to one side, and was convinced we were about to crash... :rolleyes:

[Saab Dastard]

Do whatever you are comfortable with. I took my first Pax up to Duxford just a couple of flying hours after passing my test - actually immediately after getting my licence.

But I didn't take my oldest child until I'd got a bit more experience, and even then only for a short flight at first - more for his sake than mine.

I haven't taken my wife flying yet - partly because of the hassle of organising child care (my youngest is too much of a handful to take up!) and partly not wishing to have both parents in the one basket. Not just fear of worst case, but what to do if the aicraft or WX prevents return as planned.

I try to involve my older non-pilot pax (I haven't taken anyone in the back yet) by holding the knee board and taking notes (I tell them what to listen for (Squawk, QNH etc.) and to note times. Don't forget to tell them what your call sign is! They can be useful map holders too!

I also tell them that there will be times when I need them to be instantly silent, which I will indicate by holding my hand up in front of them!

I always carry Sick bags - and tell them where they are. Only been needed once, and the Transair ones turned out to be very good indeed! :yuk: :ok:

I like to have them walk around with me for the pre-flight checks, show them that you've got fuel and the wings won't fall off!

Finally, I find it useful to describe some of the sensations at take off and preparing to land (e.g. reducing power and putting out flaps).

That's my 2.5p worth

SD

[Solo Hire]

Not sure if it's just me, but I originally found passengers very distracting to the point where I would make REALLY silly mistakes. For example, (in quite windy conditions) went off at a 30 deg angle from runway heading after take off, and didn't notice until turning crosswind...

forgetting downwind checks...

forgetting to call "final" (but did remember in my "last chance checks"!...

and the list goes on. Guess it's just a matter of discipline.

One thing that seems to make pax much more comfortable is letting them fly (if they're up for it) the top of descent, as that seems to be the bit which makes people nervous AND sick more than any other aspect of flight.

Enjoy!

[Tall_guy_in_a_152]

I did not fly between Skill Test and license delivery, so my first flight as a PPL was a currency checkride with an instructor. The next flight after that I took a friend up, then I think I spent a few hours enjoying being alone in the air before taking family, friends etc.

Unfortunately, after 7 years, my wife (Short_gal_in_a_306) still refuses to fly with me :{

TallGuy.

[MLS-12D]

You should wait until you have enough experience that you feel competent and comfortable in the airplane, and confident in your ability to handle any reasonably foreseeable eventuality (crosswinds, engine failure, electrical failure, etc.).

For a few people, this will take a long time. Many will be ready five minutes after passing their skills test. It all depends upon the individual.

It can be a tough call. Naturally, one wishes to err on the side of caution; yet if you don't push yourself a bit, you will never grow as a pilot.

[down&out]

Well,

I echo above, pretty soon after you've passed you should be ready take someone with you. Maybe you just do a few circuits, if they have not been in a small a/c before they will find it fun.

This is how I started, one or two people 1st in the circuit, then local area, then land aways, then Isle of Wight then France/ Ireland and so on. Each step at a time - Great fun!

I do agree, I think a good passenger briefing is VITAL. If you don't already have it, I recommend the CAA Safety Sense leaflet (Care of Passengers). It gives a good summary:
http://www.caa.co.uk/srg/general_aviation/document.asp?groupid=231
I also use the "holding the hand up" to passengers when I need instant quiet - it works well and as does telling passengers that if they don't feel well, there is no problem for you to cut the flight short. Knowing that and that there is a sick bag if they need one, lets most people relax so they don't actually feel ill.

This link lets you also see the other Safety Sense leaflets which are all generally worth a read. (but I'm sure your schools have shown you already;) )

[Northern Highflyer]

I took my Brother on my first flight after receiving my licence. It was a straghtforward trip that I had done several times with my instructors so that I didn't have to worry too much about getting lost, or have to do any complex nav.

We both enjoyed the trip but I have to agree that it does put pressure on you. I was more nervous than when I did my QXC and GFT. Suddenly there I was, responsible for someone else.

It was a strange feeling that for the first time, the person sat next to me couldn't help me out if I got into any difficulties which made it even more nerve wracking than the first solo. It was still an enjoyable trip all the same.

[dublinpilot]

As a number of people have said pax can be distracting.

I alway tell them not to talk to me until after the take off and until I tell them it's ok, not to talk after we start the decent and I tell them to shut up, until we have landed again, and also to shut up when they hear me, or someone else talking on the radio. Somehow they always seem to comply ;)

I'll also been known to raise my hand and say "just give me a minute", when I've been asked something while in the middle of my FREDA checks.

What ever you do, don't let them distract you if you can at all avoid it.

This should all be covered in your preflight breifing.

dp

[Spikeee]

I took my mum up on the 1st flight after i got my licence. Mainly because i couldnt afford to be doing too many!

It wasnt the greatest of ideas to be honest - the engine was running rough so turned back - she wasnt too worried though.

My second flight i took my dad, we fiddled with his door for ages after just before pre-flight and after pre-flight checks, from my view point it was closed! and all i wanted to concentrate on was flying the aeroplane.

He was trying to talk to me all the way around on taxi but i asked him not to speak as i wanted to concentrate!

We took off fine but it was soooo noisy! I could barely hear the controller (doing ccts). On the second one i look across and his door was open a little!

I was like... U could have told me!! Even though he was trying lots! lol - i felt quite bad about that.

Made that one to land and it was quite a strong crosswind - did the worst ever approach and the landing could have been worse but wasnt good at all!

I've booked my 3rd for this Sunday with an instructor to go do some spinning. Think it will help as confidence isnt exactly brimming at the moment!

__
After that i'm going to have to see how it goes - i hope to do a few solos / joint flights with other ppl's


Spike

[S-Works]

I never took my mum up in a single at all and had 30 hours on Twins before I dared to take her flying!

I took my my first passenger the day my PPL dropped through the letterbox.:D

[Marco_71]

@Spikeee - I don't know if I would have the guts to take MY parents up for a spin ... I have this theory that there is such a thing as "Parents Effect": when your parents are around things always go wrong ... worse than usual. Taking parents in a plane is pretty much a guarantee you will have to brush up on your emergency procedure VERY quickly :}

PS: just joking ;)

[dublinpilot]

Personally I'd never take a pax up for a circuits session, unless they had been up a few times with me before.

Certainly not for your first PPL flight. There is too much going on in the circuit, and you don't need someone asking what that over there is, or where is my house?

Keep it simple....a short cross country flight in familiar area, in simple airspace. Both you and your pax will feel far more comfortable once you've leveled off, things settle down, and you can chat a bit.

dp

[Tall_guy_in_a_152]

I agree with Dublinpilot.

Circuits are not comfortable for passengers, especially if neither you or they are experienced flyers. Flights to see local landmarks are good fun to start with, then progress to x-countrys to local airfields, giving the opportunity for pax to swap seats (but not you!).

For the first 2 years I always flew solo to a 'new' airfield before a follow up trip with passengers. That way any mistakes due to unfamiliarity were not witnessed. Mistakes were usually limited to picking the wrong club for a cup of tea, rather than landing on the wrong runway. :O

TG.

[Aussie Andy]

I agree with down&out about taking baby steps at the start... as others have said, you might just be surprised how having pax along can add to your mental workload so until you have a feel for this I would strongly recommend taking initial pax (say first 2 or 3) on local flights that you are totally familiar with from the training environment. This way you can relax more and concentrate on them.

Another point to bear in mind is how some pax react unexpectedly once in the air... I recall how my brother-in-law (usually cool as a cucumber) spent the entrire flight gripping the granny-strap for dear life, whilst mother-in-law was totally relaxed and enjoyed the view - whereas I had expected it to be the other way around!

Some good points also made above about briefing. One to add to the list which I always cover with non-flying pax occupying a front-seat is "please make sure your feet are not on or near the rudders unless I tell you - this is especially important when I am taking off and landing".

And lastly I agree its generally a good idea to offer some hands on flying - but again some people don't react as you expect: one young lady from the office who came with us one day totally paniced at the though that I would let her on the controls when it came to her turn... no amount of "gentle persuasion" would work, and I think if I hadn't backed off she might have started hyper-ventilating! (this is a good example of the unexpected that can distract you just as the vis deteriorates, the cloud-based descends, and you can't remember whether the unfamiliar join you are attempting is left or right handed, nor the circuit height!)

Hope this helps - enjoy... carefully!


Andy ;)

[SlipSlider]

just a small point, but I would suggest calling the thing something else, like a 'comfort bag'. For some reason the word 'sick' seems to stick in people's minds.....

Also maybe for first pax or two, how about offering a ride to another recent PPL or especially a student? Some of them might appreciate the opportunity to enjoy a flight without the workload, and you can get used to flying other people without them being totally new.

Slip

[Saab Dastard]

SlipSlider,

I know what you mean - I call them "Lunchbags" :D

SD

[drauk]

I am surprised to read how few people took passengers immediately. My examiner (who did want a full "I've never flown before" brief before we took off on the flight test) told me that his own criteria for passing a student was would he feel comfortable if my next flight was me and his 8 year old son. On this basis I decided that I was ready to take passengers. Yes passengers can be a distraction but my experience has been that passengers tend to talk a lot less than instructors if it is there first time. They just sit there in awe for the first few minutes. Plus as someone else said, they generally listen if you tell them to shut up. If you feel comfortable taking a passenger then go for it.

[Evo]

Saab :D :D :D

and I agree with drauk. My examiner had a similar criteria for passing, and I didn't wait to take passengers up. I'd had enough of flying around on my own, I wanted company. As others have said, just take one at first - having three chatting amongst themselves is a bit distracting at times :)

[Aussie Andy]

I don't think too many people have advocated waiting very long (maybe 2nd flight after license say), but what I do advocate is a bit of caution and being aware / forewarned of the additional factors that you may not have anticipated, hence taking a phased approach...

Make sense?

Andy

[dmjw01]

I took my mum and dad up for a 45 minute sight-seeing flight as my very first post-PPL flight. I made sure that the weather was totally benign, wind was fairly light, cloudbase and vis were great. And I chose a route that I knew very well, and had enough things to look at to keep them interested (Redhill - Leeds Castle - Canterbury - Rochester - Redhill if my memory serves). During my training I'd already flown at MAUW so that wasn't an issue for me but it's worth bearing in mind.

The key is to make everything else as easy as possible for yourself. Don't go to a new airfield, or into a new area where you've never flown before. Make sure you're not going to have to cope with a strong or gusty crosswind.