IR before CPL - Is it wise? [Archive]

buttline

30th Sep 2003, 07:24

I did the IR before CPL too. Only because it was February and I knew I'd be twiddling my thumbs due to the wx if I did the CPL first. Also, I wanted to experience some real IMC during my IR not just screens.

I would have to say that it helps to be a bit of a geek - if you can fly approaches in flight sim (MS) while talking on the phone with the wx at minima - having your scan up to speed going into the IR is a big help - the workload is high and your scan needs be automatic by the time you go for test. This will give you some idea if you are ready for an IR. Going into the IR with just the 5 hours of instrument flying from the PPL would be making life reasonably hard IMHO.

However, with the wx as it is right now, I'd be tempted to go for the CPL right now. The fairly regular airmass changes keep the air clean which means good visibility which is crucial for the navigation during the CPL. Save the IR for the winter months when you can enjoy(!) crappy weather and light icing - the experience is invaluable.

Good luck.

High Wing Drifter

30th Sep 2003, 20:32

LASORS is a fascinating tome! Just trying to make sense of it and in the meantime I noticed some stuff I did not know (CPL and combined multi rating as well at 10hr credit in CPL with IR training (see below)). Please chip in and correct where wrong.

This is what it offers (I think!!):

Option 1 (I/R before CPL):
==========================
PPL 45hrs
PPL Test 2hrs
Hour Build 60hrs PiC (assume 10hrs PiC from PPL).
Night Rating 5hrs
MEP Rating 6hrs (req 70hrs PiC)
IR(ME) 55hrs (no 5hr credit coz CPL not passed).
Hour Build 30hrs PiC to bring PiC to 100hrs
CPL 15hrs (10hr dual training credit cuz you dun the IR training of 55hrs. Reqs 100hrs Pic)
IR Test (inc 170A) 5hrs (IR issued - very wide and very toothy big grin)
CPL Test 2.5hrs (CPL issued with min 200hrs pending ATPLs)
Total of 227.5hrs (Now what MCC course shall I do?).

Assume:
PPL = 6k
MEP = 2k
Night = 1k
CPL = 4k
IR = 11k
Hour Build = 9k

Guess Total of 33k + 20% error/unplanned/retakes/etc = 40k

Option 2 (IR after CPL):
========================
PPL 45hrs
PPL Test 2hrs
Hour Build 100hrs (150hrs total. 100hrs PiC, etc)
Night Rating = 5hrs
CPL 28hrs (including MEP rating min of 8hours in a twin)
CPL Test 2.5hrs (in a twin, CPL issues with 200hrs TT)
IR(ME) 50hrs (5hr credit coz CPL passed).
IR Test (inc 170A) 5hrs (IR issued - same grin as before)
Total of 237.5hrs (MCC brochure flick-thru time)

Assume:
PPL = 6k
Night = 1k
CPL = 6k (slightly more expensive with multi rating included)
IR = 11k
Hour Build = 10k

Finger in the air Total of 34k + 20% correction for the unexpected = 41k

I am not sure what to make of it. An estimated £1k saving may seem small, but that will pay for the most of the MCC course.

Also, the prize for the most pointless licence goes to the CPL(A)(R) (a restricted CPL). Licence issue requirements are identical to the CPL(A) but you are only allowed to fly UK registered aircraft. I can't find a direct reference to it in the ANO either???

ecj

1st Oct 2003, 18:30

Where possible do the SE skill test first. Good building block for the ME - IR phase. Time of year & location can be critical for the SE phase. Depths of winter has been known to be somewhat frustrating waiting for suitable VFR conditions.

Having said that if we are blessed with a descent Siberian High in the next few months, visual flying can be wonderful. How lucky do you feel?

NineEighteen

2nd Oct 2003, 22:59

but you do need to pick your FTO very, very carefully. Keygrip, Would you mind expanding on this a little please? I understand that decisions of this magnitude should not be taken lightly but, as I have no experience of professional flying training, I'd appreciate a few pointers.

I assume the transition from PPL(VFR) to PPL(IFR) is more challenging than doing the CPL in between but as it is possible....could you please explain what makes picking an FTO for IR -> CPL different from picking one to train CPL -> IR?

Thanks
0918

High Wing Drifter

2nd Oct 2003, 23:35

0918,

The main difference I can see (see my LASORS post above) is that you can cut out 10 hours of CPL intrument training. But then you have to do the multi before hand. Notwithstanding the major task of taking full control of your training and getting the FTO to do it your way.

I cannot see Keygrip's original point that it saves 55 hours of hour building and the inference that it is as such, substantially cheaper.

I guess your best bet is to talk to the dedicated IR providers such as Bristol Flight Training and see what they think.

NineEighteen

3rd Oct 2003, 00:03

HWD,

I agree with you about the alleged difference in price; I too made a rough calculation and didn't see a considerable saving.

Regarding the training, you sayNotwithstanding the major task of taking full control of your training and getting the FTO to do it your way. It was the FTO's suggestion that I do the training this way around, not mine. Being the cynic that I am, I started wondering what's in it for the FTO? It actually sounds a more sensible approach to me but not having had practical experience, I'm a wondering why most of the other FTO's do not mention doing it this way? Particularly if the CAA recommend it.

Is going straight from PPL to IR too ambitious?

0918 :confused:

High Wing Drifter

4th Oct 2003, 09:48

'ave a gander at this link:

http://www.bfctraining.co.uk/courses_view.php?page=jaa_ir

NineEighteen

6th Oct 2003, 06:06

Thanks very much for that HWD. I guess the most important thing is to speak to all prospective FTO's and find out their feelings on the best order to follow...and their reasons. As you say, BFC are experienced with IR training and even state their recommendation on the website.

P.S. Should I contact BFC and point out their spelling error on that page? :p

High Wing Drifter

8th Oct 2003, 05:20

0918,

No problemo. Yeah give em a nudge about the spelling. Silly thing is I didn't notice it until you pointed it out :\

Armpit,

Good point. I was infact thinking of not doing the IR until after getting an FI for the weekends for that very same reason. However, I am not sure about the FI at all at the moment and I quite like the idea of getting the IR before the CPL. However, a combined CPL and Multi course would probably be my first choice at the moment prior to the IR.

NineEighteen

8th Oct 2003, 06:20

Thanks for posting that Armpit. That is indeed a good point and I'd not considered it at all.

HWD it sounds like you're in a similar quandary. I still need some hours before I can start training, so I have a bit of time to consider my options. Good luck with whatever you decide. I'll report back when/if my route becomes a little clearer. :rolleyes:

High Wing Drifter

14th Oct 2003, 19:51

0918,

Been thinking 'bout this one. I am just about convinced this is the best course of action for me. I reckon I should do my Night Qual late November(ish) and then move onto the ME rating. I have a share in an AA5 that I can then build hours in without worrying about night through the Winter as necessary (in theory!). Once the Night and Twin ratings are established I will start the ME IR. However, I have no intention of quiting work yet so I am quite happy to attempt this part-time over several months. Combined with ATPLs and other misc private flights in my AA5 that should build the hours quite nicely. I imagine I may have a couple of months of ATPL study left once the IR is through. Time to get more hours in to ensure that magic 100 PiC and get the CPL out of the way. By the end I should have 230-250+hrs.

The interleaving of training will be much more convienient than waiting until I have met the course CPL requirements before resuming flying training.

If there is a flaw in this plan then I imagine it lies with the part-time IR idea. However, at the moment I have not the knowledge to udnerstand why doing an IR part-time could be a specific problem.

Laters!

FlyingForFun

14th Oct 2003, 20:30

HWD,

Just one small snag - you must comlete the exams before you can be issued with the IR. I'm not actually sure whether you can do the test, or the training, before you complete the exams, I'd imagine the answer lies somewhere in LASORS - but make sure you know the implications of this before you start!

FFF
--------------

High Wing Drifter

14th Oct 2003, 20:42

Have looked it up in LASORS (see my post further up). You can do the entire course but only get issued with the rating once the theory stuff is complete. In addition you don't need to complete the instrument portion of the CPL training which amounts to a 10 hour credit.

LFS

14th Oct 2003, 21:17

HWD,

You may be able to complete the course without all the exams but you will not be allowed to sit the IR test until you have passed at least the IR exams. Make life easier on yourself just get the exams out of the way then focus on the flying courses. It is unlikely that you will save any significant amount of money at the end of the day by trying to do things in a different order.

LFS

High Wing Drifter

14th Oct 2003, 22:04

LFS,

Thanks for the feedback. Yes you are right. My answer lacked precision. Re the potential problems, unless there are specific problems with doing the IR part-time I think this will synchronise reasonably closely with the completion of the ATPLs. I worked out, there would probably be a small saving of about £1k (in theory!!). That saving is not the driver for this plan though.

LFS

14th Oct 2003, 22:19

HWD,

Thats fair enough as long as you are realistic. We have had a candidate before try to start the training before finishing all the exams, they droppped a couple of exams and had to wait nearly two months until they could pass their exams. Needless to say that messed up their training. A lot of people try to save themselves time and money by doing it all at once, in my view the best option is to take everything one at a time. You may only have to meet the requirements when your licence is issued, however I believe the spirit of the requirements is to have them all me before commencing your commercial / IR training.

LFS

NineEighteen

6th Dec 2003, 22:19

I thought I'd resurrect this thread because I'm still wondering if tackling the IR first is a good idea.

I have passed all 14 ATPL exams and I'm 60 hours P1 and 103 hours TT and currently building hours.

Any more views?

six-sixty

11th Dec 2003, 17:26

I don't know the answer, but I am thinking along the same lines. I've started the ATPL studies while working, and aim to quit work some time April/May next year so I can devote myselft full-time to them. I don't expect to have completed them all until Autumn at the earliest, which means bleak wx time just when I need to do my CPL and IR training.

I'm now thinking maybe put the ATPLs on hold, do the IR over the summer, then spend Autumn/Winter on the exams. CPL relatively quick after that, and if necessary over in US if wx still not playing.

There's also the psychological appeal of feeling I've got the hardest bit out of the way. I am going to ask a few schools for their opinion.

High Wing Drifter

14th Dec 2003, 16:54

figair,
Thanks for your views and an interesting slant.

All,
Just thought I would chip in with my latest thoughts: I still prefer this option. My latest reasoning is that if I can't pass the IR, then I cannot see me bothering with the CPL anyway. With input from various sources including FFF's awsome CPL diary I have kind of realised that the CPL is not going to be the main challenge and that altough the CPL is not easy and will hone existing skills, I don't believe it will provide anything instrumental (pardon the pun) towards the IR that I cannot and am not doing in my hour building within the limitations of my PPL.

Given that I will have 70hrs P1 shortly and from my experience of Mod 1 ATPLs, there will be spare capacity during Mod 2 to undertake flying training in parallel it seems sensible to get on with it.

However, I say this giving due heed to LFS' words of caution.

Megaton

14th Dec 2003, 17:09

Personally I think it would be a big mistake to do the IR before the CPL. The CPL is relatively straighforward but provides a useful period of disciplined flying before commencing the muh harder IR. True enough if you do the IR first the CPL will be easier but your chances of getting through the IR in one piece are, IMHO, much less. I saw one student at the school where I did my IR trying to do it before the CPL and he struggled. He already had an IMC rating and a fair amount of ME time and he still found the IR extremely difficult. Not only will the CPL improve your flying skills and discipline but it's an extra 25 hrs in the air before attempting the much more expensive IR. I think your reasoning is flawed: if you can't pass the CPL then you've got no hope with the IR but at least you won't have spent a fortune. You will also save in the longer term if you go pretty much straight from the CPL on to the IR since your skills will be building towards a peak. There's always a reason for conventional wisdom and, in the case, it's right: CPL before IR. No question.

FlyingForFun

14th Dec 2003, 18:56

Six-sixty,

Your plan to do your IR before the ATPL exams won't work I'm afraid... you need to have the exam credits before you can get the IR added to your license. (You can, in theory, do the training and the skills test, but not send off for the rating until you finish the exams, but I don't think that's a good idea...)

FFF
------------

Tinstaafl

14th Dec 2003, 22:53

My thoughts about general principles:

1. Any disciplined experience eg CPL or IR training will help with passing another rating. A CPL will help you when you do the IR & vica versa.

2. Get the exams out of the way before flying. When you do the flight test(s) you will be expected to be fully conversant with the rules, regs, procedures & applicable knowledge. That's supposed to be what the exams are testing*. Knowing the theory generally means less time spent in the air having it explained to you. It's also a load off your mind, letting you focus on the flying training.

*That opens up the can of worms about the degree of relevence of UK/JAR exams, but that's their intent.

3. A UK IR is a more difficult 'step up' from a PPL than is the step from PPL --> CPL. A case of clambering over a wall then a small step to CPL vs. a medium step to CPL followed by another step to IR.

4. It might be beneficial to look at a combined CPL & IR training course. Structured properly it's possible to leverage ('bring to the table, think outside the box, gain synergies of effort, etc etc etc :yuk: ) parts of one course to benefit the other course eg the basic IR part of the CPL to provide the initial IR training, the IR navaid work to be used to benefit the CPL navaid work. That sort of thing.

Hufty

14th Dec 2003, 23:16

I just finished my CPL having done the IR first and it worked out OK.

I did find the transition to the CPL phase hard though as I found it hard to resist the temptation to keep my head inside the cockpit for the first few hours of the CPL making it very difficult for myself. I also went over hours on the CPL - you can technically do it in 15 if you have an IR already but I didn't find it helped that much so ended up spending more money than I needed to.

What helped with the IR though was the fact that I was in current flying practice going into it and already held an IMC.

If I was doing it again I'd probably do the CPL first, but only as it would have saved me some money.

Hufty.

englishal

15th Dec 2003, 15:38

This is a problem with the JAA system...whereby pilots tend to go out, hour build, get the CPL and then the IR.

Under the FAA system it is far more common to get the PPL, get an IR then get the CPL. The reason behind this is that several years ago the FAA realised that the best rating a pilot could get after the initial PPL was an IR. There used to be a 200Hr TT stipulation before being able to get the IR, which was revised down to 130hrs then dropped completely. The studies showed that pilots were killing themselves burning holes in the sky trying to build hours towards the magic 200 needed for the IR or the magic 250 needed to get the FAA CPL. Once the TT minima was dropped, fatalities dropped significantly. (people weren't pushing the edge of the envelope to get their hours)

I would totally recommend getting the IR BEFORE getting the CPL if you can. If you have the ATPLs out of the way then there is nothing stopping you.

I think the JAA examination system should be more modular so you can "bolt on" additional exams, that way a PPL can then take the IR and exams, fly around for a while, then take the CPL (CPL exams) fly around for a while, then take the ATPL exams. Seems to make sense.

Cheers
EA:D

FlyingForFun

15th Dec 2003, 16:06

Seems to make senseI agree. Which is probably why they don't do it that way ;)

However, if you're saying that the biggest reason for doing the IR before the CPL is to keep you safe when hour-building, then I'd disagree - in the UK, the IMC rating can do that, and I've already said on another thread that this is a beneficial thing to do during hour-building. I'm not saying that you shouldn't do the IR first - just that if safety is the main, or only, reason for doing so then there's a flaw in the logic.

FFF
----------------

Groundbased

15th Dec 2003, 18:47

I think any cost savings may be risky, because I am given to understand that the IR is the most expensive course to retake should you have to, coming in at around £1k each time you take it.

It's cropped up during the research I've been doing into various options, but I can only say I'm planning to do the IR later because that is what the FTO's I have been to recommend.

It might be something for further analysis once the ppl is out of the way and everyone has a better idea of how you are likely to progress, if you are going the modular route of course.

High Wing Drifter

15th Dec 2003, 18:54

Not sure there is a flaw in the logic, just different weightings to the various paramaters used to make a judgement :)

englishal

15th Dec 2003, 19:18

just that if safety is the main, or only, reason for doing so then there's a flaw in the logic.
Its not the main reason to do it....it maybe in the US but not in the UK as you rightly point out.

I'd like to see a more modular approach to commercial training in JAR land, so you can keep bolting bits on as and when is appropriate. You yourself know that when you were "a basic PPL" you had passed the ATPLs and knew all about 737 FMS's and instrument procedures but was it really relevant? Must be better to build up in chunks, so you get the PPL, then train for the IR and at the same time do the IR exams, then train for the CPL and do the CPL exams, then in a year or two once a little bit more experienced take the ATPL exams....

In my opinion, get an IR early on, and use it, and get good at using it, I suppose it could be called an investment for the future...:D

Cyer

Tinstaafl

15th Dec 2003, 19:45

Oz has something like that.

ATPL exams don't cover CPL content and nor do they cover IR stuff. You have to do PPL --> CPL --> ATPL & somewhere after PPL & before the ATPL the IR.

An IR can be gained in a single hit or in chunks as a PPL IR, starting with a 'cruise' type of thing that lets you fly off into a high-ish overcast, cruise & then descend through a high-ish overcast ie above MSA/LSALT, using a single navaid type. From that foundation the pilot can add all the bolt-ons: CTA, different aids for different approaches & navigation, IFR departures etc etc.

I suspect it works out a bit more expensive but does allow the cost to be spread over quite a bit of time. A 'full' IR isn't too much of a sod to do either.

The PPL IR is fairly new. Probably the most common path in Oz is PPL (single engine) --> often a night VFR rating( (s/e) --> CPL (s/e) --> sometimes an intructor rating --> IR (m/e) --> ATPL theory --> ATPL

FlyingForFun

15th Dec 2003, 20:15

Englishal,

I'm nit-picking now, but it is actually possible to "build up in chunks, so you get the PPL, then train for the IR and at the same time do the IR exams, then train for the CPL and do the CPL exams, then in a year or two once a little bit more experienced take the ATPL exams".

I know exactly what you mean, though. No one does it this way in JAR land because in practice it would mean taking more than twice as many exams.... What you mean is that it would be nice if there was a realistic way of doing this, and I couldn't agree more!

FFF
-------------

englishal

15th Dec 2003, 22:39

But if you do the JAA CPL exams under JAR, then later on want to bolt on the ATPLs, don't you have to re-sit all exams?

I did the basic JAA PPL, then added on the FAA IR to my FAA licence issued on the basis of my JAA PPL. Then I added on the FAA multi and also IR privileges at the same time. Then I did the Multi CPL and becasue I had IR privileges on the private multi, these directly transferred to the Commercial multi. Then I added on the single engine commercial, and becasue I took the initial CPL check ride in a ME aircraft, this got rid of the requriement to take the CPL SE check ride in a complex aircraft.

I am toying with the idea of converting to JAA, BUT for me the big stumbling blovk is that I don't have the ATPLs (or CPLs). If I did then I'd convert like a shot.....

Ah well, a project for 2004 :D

Cyer

NineEighteen

24th Dec 2003, 00:49

Thanks to all for the replies on this thread. I'm still undecided but I'll let you know my decision once I've made it.

Meanwhile...Groundbased said:It's cropped up during the research I've been doing into various options, but I can only say I'm planning to do the IR later because that is what the FTO's I have been to recommend. Did these FTO's say why they recommend doing the IR later? Is it that figair's theory is correct?This option seems to be the preferred one as gives slightly more money to the FTO. Or is there a less cynical reason?

Thanks
0918

Linda Mollison

29th Dec 2003, 16:02

pink flamingo,

The reason schools don't necessarily respond is that they cannot be seen to be advertising!

I work for a school (unnamed) and will try to answer your question.

As previous people on this thread have stated it really depends on how you want to do your training, (whether you want to do it all at once, or whether you want a break between courses) and what you want to do after you have finished your training.

For example, if you want to spend some time instructing before you apply for an airline position, there is not too much point in doing your IR until later. You would have to renew it after a year (at a cost) and you get increasingly less current as time goes by. So in this case, you would do your CPL first.

If, however, you want to do all of the training continuously you have three optoins:

1.Do the CPL in a single engined aircraft (complex single) followed by the Multi Rating, followed by the IR.

2.

Oops, I hit submit!

To continue:

2. Do the CPL in a multi engined aircraft (you do the Multi rating test at the same time as the CPL skill test), followed by the IR

3. Do the Multi Rating, followed by the IR followed by the CPL in a single-engined aircraft

4. Do the Multi Rating, followed by the IR, followed by the CPL in a twin-engined aircraft.

Option 1:

25 hour CPL course, followed by 6 hour Multi rating course, followed by 50 hour IR course.

Option 2:

28 hour CPL course, followed by 6 hour Multi Rating course followed by 50 hour IR course.

Option 3.

6 hour Multi Rating course, followed by 55 hour IR course, followed by 15 hour CPL course

Option 4:

6 hour Multi Rating course, followed by 55 hour IR course, followed by 15 hour CPL course.

Which option you choose will depend upon two things: how many multi hours you require (the minimum, or as many as you can accrue), and what your abilities are.

If you are average or below, I suggest that you do the CPL first in a single engined aircraft, then the multi, then the IR. This will build your training slowly, getting more complex with time.

If you are above average I would suggest that you do Option 2 or option 4. There is not really much to choose between the two options. Weather may be a factor. It may be a good idea to choose whether you do the CPL first or second depending upon what time of the year you are planning to start.

The number of multi hours you achieve will depend upon which option you choose and how much you want to spend although, in the big picture, the extra spend to achieve more multi hours is not great.

Our recommended route is CPL in a multi, followed by the IR which, with our course structures, will give you a minimum of 46 hours in a multi. Compare this with the 'standard' 24 hours which many schools offer.

Hope this helps

Linda

High Wing Drifter

30th Dec 2003, 01:38

Option 2:

28 hour CPL course, followed by 6 hour Multi Rating course followed by 50 hour IR course.
Thanks for the info, just one query: As far as I can make out, LASORS says 28 hour CPL including 8 hours ME + skills test = CPL and Multi Rating. So no need for the 6 hour multi course (page 6 section "D1.2(D) Notes"?

Linda Mollison

30th Dec 2003, 02:33

Yes, sorry, HWD.

You are right - Option 2 is a 28 hour CPL (includes the Multi Rating training) course followed by a 50 hour IR course.

I must have had too much Christmas Pudding!

Thanks for pointing it out.

Linda

NineEighteen

14th Jan 2004, 23:49

If you are above average I would suggest that you do Option 2 or option 4.Thanks for the post Linda. I'm now trying to decide if I'm above, below or simply average. ;)

I still need to build some hours before I reach the minimums for CPL issue and I'd feel much more satisfied if I could complete the hours having become instrument rated. Maybe I'm underestimating the task. I guess time will tell.

0918

High Wing Drifter

15th Jan 2004, 00:00

0918,

Do a GAPAN test, it seems to be specifically designed with the IR in mind. Navigate to www.gapan.org or give 'em a tinkle or something.

clearfortheoption

15th Jan 2004, 21:53

Hi guys,

Just a little point that hasn't been mentioned yet,if you go directly into a Twin after having only been in a single not complex you will have to get used to the variable pitch prop,the MP gauge and obviously the rectractable gear .I know it doesn't take a long time to get used to it but still a few more things to think of,and considering that you are learning to fly the twin these few more things to think about could result in overloading your brain for the first few hours(very expensive hours).Now you could argue that you can include some complex time during your hour building to get used to it and that could be an option.

An other point is that during the CPL you are given 10 hours instruction on instrument flying so that 's a good exercise for the IR and also reduces the time of the IR course from 55 to 50 hours if you have a CPL or if you passed the CPL skill test .

CPL,MULTI IR is an "easyer progression" in difficulty in fact you will start on a single,then single complex,then multi vfr,then multi ifr something that I would call a natural development of flying skills and tasks.

In the USA they do PPL and then IR...ok but you do the IR in a single not complex ....then cpl(complex) then Multi vfr with the multi add on to your single IR....much easyer than going from a C152 to a PA34 and fly on instruments!

The problem is that in the UK an IR on a single is useless!!! because you can't have a multi add on to your single IR by only shutting two approaches like in the USA but you have to go through the full MULTI IR test!

However the final decision rests with you I can only wish you the best of luck!

CFTO

NineEighteen

23rd Jan 2004, 05:23

Thanks for the GAPAN link HWD but I considered this before. I got the impression that the test was more valid for the pre-PPL wannabe. I may be wrong but I'm pretty confident that I have what it takes to pass the IR without too much trouble.

I guess I have the same reservations that most do about spending a great deal of cash for a rating that I may never get to fully exploit. I think I'm gonna have to follow the 0918 method for getting things done. Weigh up the pro's and con's and then do it anyway!

Best of luck!

0918

Haul By Cable

23rd Jan 2004, 17:52

This issue affects me directly at the moment too.

Question for Linda Mollison -
At the moment I think that your 'Option 2' would be the right one for me, however, I am a bit confused by the following statement that you made...
Our recommended route is CPL in a multi, followed by the IR which, with our course structures, will give you a minimum of 46 hours in a multi. Compare this with the 'standard' 24 hours which many schools offer. Could you explain what course would give you a whopping 46 hours twin time please? I thought that the above example would provide perhaps 30 hours twin time at the most?

Haul.

High Wing Drifter

24th Jan 2004, 18:35

I got the impression that the test was more valid for the pre-PPL wannabe. I may be wrong but I'm pretty confident that I have what it takes to pass the IR without too much trouble.
Whoops, you are correct. You managed to joggle that crucial piece of information from my decaying mind. If my nudged memory serves me correctly I think it is anyone under 50hrs TT.

Sorry for the curve-ball.

I'm gonna have to follow the 0918 method for getting things done. Weigh up the pro's and con's and then do it anyway!
Sounds familiar!!

Linda Mollison

26th Jan 2004, 22:46

Haul By Cable

You have two options to build that number of hours:

1. Multi engine CPL (5 hours simulator, 23 hours in the twin plus 2 for test). Then Instrument Rating (30 hours in a FNPT2, 20 hours in the twin plus 2 hour test).

I make that 43 hours, plus 4 hours test (i.e. 47) which, if you get a first time pass in each test, is P1S.

2. Multi Rating (6 hours in the twin plus 1 hour test), Instrument Rating (30 hours in FNPT2 simulator, 20 hours in the twin plus 2 hour test), then CPL (15 hours in the twin plus 2 hour test).

I make that 41 hours plus 5 hours test (again P1S with first time passes), i.e 46 hours.

Our 'standard' option is CPL in the complex single, 6 hours plus one hour test for the multi, and 30 hours FNPT2, 20 hours aircraft for the IR plus 2 hour test.

I make that 26 hours training plus 3 hours test (i.e. 29).

The interesting thing is that there is a difference of less than £1,000 between the price of the standard option and either of the two options detailed above!

Linda

Haul By Cable

27th Jan 2004, 22:07

Linda Mollison -

I'm sorry, I'm still a bit confused. I was under the impression that the various 'options' that you detailed were representative of the courses your school provides.

I was unable to find any reference to a 47 hour option on your website and was of the understanding that your statement...Option 2 is a 28 hour CPL (includes the Multi Rating training) course followed by a 50 hour IR course. ... was referring to the multi CPL course you advertise...Our special combined 28-hour CPL(A) and Multi Rating is really worth considering, for those who do not already hold a multi rating. The course is structured as follows:

13 hours Beech 24 + 3 hours Frasca 142, to cover visual general handling, navigation and instrument flying

6 hours Multi-Engine Piston Rating Course
2 hours Multi consolidation in our Duchess FNPT2 simulator
2 hours multi CPL handling and navigation
2 hours pre Test CPL profile (‘170A’)
CAA CPL and Multi combined Test
Our course thus consists of 10 hours Duchess aircraft plus an additional 2 hours in the Duchess FNPT2. The standard structure for a multi-engine CPL offered by most schools is just 8 hours multi.When I added this to the 50 hour IR...IR Multi 50 hrs, for holders of an ICAO CPL(A)
(10 hrs Frasca 142 simulator, 20 hrs Beech 76 FNPT2 simulator, 20 hrs Beech 76 multi aircraft)... I thought it gave 30 hours in a twin (perhaps 34 adding 4 hours for tests)? I realise that if you have a lot of money you could perhaps do every hour of the Multi/CPL/IR in a twin and come out with 100% twin time - not sure many people would turn that down :) but after scratching my head for a while I have to conclude that...Our recommended route is CPL in a multi, followed by the IR which, with our course structures, will give you a minimum of 46 hours in a multi. Compare this with the 'standard' 24 hours which many schools offer.... is perhaps a bit of a misleading statement to make?

Indeed (regarding your last post), I am truely and genuinely interested to know how a Multi/CPL/IR course with 43 hours twin training time can vary by only £1000 when compared to a Multi/CPL/IR course of only 26 hours twin training time! :confused:

Cheers,

Haul.

mad_jock

27th Jan 2004, 23:59

Don't forget as well that the twin training can be done as part of your hour building. So if in the US you can do the 6 hours for the same price or less as renting a complex single over here.

The way i did it was more by luck than Judgment.

Hour building in the US got bored flogging around FL. So started to commute from Winterhaven down to Naples to do twin training.

Started CPL/IR with 150hours on the dot 6 of which were multi.

Wx in Leeds in Jan was utter pants for VFR so spent what seemed like 30mins in the sim doing basic figure of 8's on the approaches at Leeds after doing basic instrument scans etc (actually turned out to be 2 hours). Kevin said that because he had a clean canvas to be worked with (no IMC) he would accept me straight onto IR. So did that plus 1 hour extra for the MEP skills test which you need to have passed to be able to sit the IR with only a PPL.

So thats 6 + 35 + 3.5 MEP so far 44.5

Did the 15 hour CPL course half way through decided I really couldn't be bothered learning all the single complex stuff so after the 172 training getting used to looking out of the window again I went back to the twin. All in i ended up with 55hours MEP time.
The twin cpl test is I think easier than the SEP especially after the IR. The circuit work is just a repeat of the IR apart from you can see out of the window. And no nasty PFL's or glide to lands to be mucking about with.

There is a point which can be made that the MEP CPL's have missed out what some would regard as important training regarding the PFL's etc. But then again how many single engined public transport jobs are there out there. Not many I should think and most if not all other jobs which use singles will be none complex types. And the best way of getting good at rescuing SEPs from trouble is 500 hours + of instructing.

I think it cost an extra £800 quid to do the extra hours in the twin and most of that was solo time for the flight test. The twin was only 20-30 pounds an hour more than the complex single for CPL training. And I prefer the twin hours in the log book than additional single so for 300 ish pounds I got an extra 7-8 twin hours logged.

The IR was bloody hard work but very enjoyable and challanging.
Different ways suit different people. It worked for me.

I for one am looking forward to FFF's diary of his IR. :D

MJ