Glider Launching sites

[Capt. Manuvar]

During my skills test a couple of weeks ago (which i passed :cool: ), i was routing near saltby gliding site under cottesmore RIS(excellent service) when the controller informed me that i was about 'infinge an active glider site' and vectored me about 6-7 miles from the site. at the point i was directly over the melton mowbray mast & my intended track was about 3nm from saltby.
My question is how wide are gliding sites? and how far away are we required to be away from them without 'infringing'?
I'm already used to gliders after a ew close calls and generally tend to stay away from glider sites.

[Chilli Monster]

A few comments:

1) Are you saw it was Saltby gliding site, not Langar para site?

2) Gliding sites don't have ATZ's nor, normally, any other airspace to go with it. It is generally accepted though that a 1 mile radius area to avoid up to the vertical limit is acceptable. Vertical limits are defined in the UK AIP , and are normally either 2000 or 3000ft agl depending on the maximum height they are winch launching to.

3) Did the controller ask you whether you would accept vectors, or just do it anyway? if it was the latter he had absolutely no right to do so and should have left you to it, just passing you information of the activity. What if you'd been solo, non-IMC qualified and he'd vectored you into a cloud?

What type of ATC service were you under?

[Zlin526]

Unless the site has an ATZ, then there is no 'protected' airspace around a gliding site, so you cant infringe it! AFAIK, Saltby has no ATZ

Bloody stupid to hang around an active gliding or parachute site without a good reason (and lookout), but they don't own the airspace.

Have a nice day:ok:

[rotorcraig]

If my route takes me in the vicinity of an active glider site, I am always worried :eek:

Find it very difficult to anticipate what gliders are going to do ... sometimes convince myself that I'm fitted with some sort of glider magnet.

Advide from an instructor lately was "go straight over the top at ~2500ft keeping a good watch on the winch - that's where they're least likely to be". Wasn't convinced :confused:

What do others do? Route over the active site & high? Route round - in which case how wide, upwind / downwind etc?

RC

[ronbvr]

Good Morning, Gentlemen.

WRT Gliding Sites; I fly (read 'Soar when conditions are right') out of Lasham. Which has some relatively crowded air near and overhead.

We DO try to be wary of these powered beasties zooming around, as we are only too aware just how invisible a glider is to us, never mind you people who are transporting others. This gets proven to us on an almost yearly basis by the number of glider vs glider serious/fatal accidents which occur in our community.

We don't have any sort of exclusion zone - the 1/2 mil chart shows our sites and will normally, as someone else stated, give you a clearance height, dependant on the winch cable length. We do like a bit of space though, as you might see from the following.

To say that we will never be near the winch could be a dangerous thing for both of us; we actually release from the wire (3/8 inch braided steel, with a few lbs weight of shackles, wire strop, retarder chute and connecting links on the end) well short of the winch, due to the weight of the cable. However, on a good day, you can almost GUARANTEE that the first lift we find will be right over the winch.

We have a system of aero towing which will see, when a competiton is starting, anywhere up to five tugs flying off on a series of routes away from the airfield up to 2000 feet. There the gliders release and the tugs return to pick up the next gliders. The gliders meanwhile search out the nearest thermals and tend to gather there. This activity can last for over an hour, with a hundred plus gliders being launched.

This is in addition to the normal winch and aerotow launches going on fror training and leisure purposes from the launch point.
We do a lot of trial flights (to interest newcomers and put some money in the coffers), pre-solo and post-solo training. Lots of ups and downs, in other words, within a two to five mile radius depending on winds, thermals and visibility.

Later on in the day, things get interesting again as the somewhat reduced group of competition gliders start returning. Some will be struggling along desparately trying to make the finish at zero feet, whilst others will have had adequate height to stuff the nose down and cruise at Vne to get home. Ergo speeds between 40 - 130 kts and heights between 400-4000ft.

Please note, this is Lasham; most other fields are a lot smaller and less crowded. But to us the risks are similar, only varied by the height of the airspace above us and the number of gliders/powered a/c in the vicinity.

The British Gliding Association (BGA) do not look kindly upon gliding people who infringe airspace or notammed areas. We have an uphill fight all the way to retain what freedom we have in this crowded airspace and the few misfit miscreants who disregard these safety measures are regarded as a pain in the nether regions by the rest of us. (Unfortunately, we also have one or two pilots who get lost using GPS!!)

I'm certain some readers are also gliding/soaring pilots and may have a varying take on this situation, but this is my viewpoint.


Regards

RonBVR
:8

[robin]

I'd like to echo that -

it's all very well being right in law - gliding sites without legal ATZs - but it's not sensible.

As a participant in both activities, I am appalled by power pilot's comparative lack of skill with the Mk1 Eyeball. Even when flying my bright red toy, power pilots just don't make the slightest effort to give way - probably watching the nice moving map on the GPS and trying to keep on the straight line route......

My advice is to avoid planning a flight too near to any active gliding or parachuting field unless there is a good reason.

Isn't that what flight planning is about - to look for hazards and avoid them???

[83 3708]

Echoing what other people have said, I always try and avoid a glider site by a good margin, usually 3 miles or more. Cutting in close to one is not my idea of self preservation and is un-friendly to the gliders. Although I have never flown a glider and have no knowledge of their capabilities it seems that they can wander a good distance from their home even from a relatively low altitude launch.

One site that gives a problem in this respect is Kenley, to the south of London. Being wedged in between the Gatwick and Heathrow zones and sitting on top of the South Downs it does not give much room for manoeuvre if you wish to keep well clear of controlled airspace as well.

Can any glider types out there enlighten me as to why they would want to launch off such a site given that you cannot get much height on due to the base of the London TMA? The chances of having a long and meaningful flight seems rather doubtful!

Regards

83 3708

[engineless john]

Never flown at Kenley, but a fair number of Kenley folks come to Parham (my club), as it has a bit more in the way of XC options. I asked one of them once what the attraction was. "Well it's inside the M25" was the reply...

To give people some idea of where to expect a glider, with a 25:1 glide angle (i.e. pretty much everything) at 3000 ft assuming no wind and 800 ft for a circuit will have 10 miles of gliding range. The exotic stuff can realistically expect glide angles over 50:1...

As to flying right over the winch, I've been up to 2000 ft at Aston Down on their winch, and I believe Lasham with a good wind can get up to 3000 ft. I wouldn't recommend trundling through that bit of sky at 2500.....

So why is it that gliding club airfields are magnets for SEPs then? :)

Cheers
John

[chrisN]

To go back to the original question, while there may be no ATZ at a gliding site, there is rule 17. If you are not conforming to the traffic pattern, you are at risk. Gliding traffic patterns include the launch phase, which by winch is a climb at well over 1000 feet per minute to 1000, 2000 or even 3000 feet; and a circuit which is typically descending from 1000 feet or less all round to the final approach.

Gliders thermalling away from a winch or aerotow launch may not constitute a "traffic pattern" as such, but common sense suggests that within a mile or two of a gliding site on a good day is not a smart place to transit if you can avoid it.

Chris N.

[Arclite01]

As a glider pilot and power jock I'd suggest the following:

1. Treat all gliding sites like they have an ATZ - it's safer that way

2. Stay away from Cloudbase on cumulus days. Gliders will usually be underneath Cu and white against grey does not show up much

3. 2 seater gliders are nearly always training so the student will have a high workload and may have let his/her lookout lapse and will see you at the last minute

4. Don't assume they have seen you and will take avoiding action - power gives way to sail

5. They are very small profiles head or tail on and closing speeds can be rapid - flying cross country they can be doing up to 100+ Kts IAS !!!!

6. To really understand their point of view I'd recommend you go and have an aerotow at a gliding site - but be careful - it's addictive....

cheers

Arc:D

[ratt]

At Cottesmore the Radar map has Saltby marked on with a 2nm radius and Saltby will call daily to advise of the height they are active to.

A civil RIS will be advised of its proximity to Saltby and a heading to avoid a busy looking glider site MAY be offered.

You'd be surprised how many aircraft flying around have no idea whats out there and in ATC, unless it's a familiar callsign, you have no idea how clued up that pilot is. If it is deemed in the best interests to all a vector to avoid MAY be offered.

As for a 6-7 mile re-route; you don't have to take the advice in the first place and in my exprience it wouldnt be the first time that a pilot has taken advice but then missed the "c/s clear of area, own navigation" as he was not monitoring the frequency. If I had £1 for everytime I've needed to call traffic 4 or 5 times because those in-cockpit aren't listeneing then I'd be able to afford the Rutland Council charge. But, that's a different thread!

This was probably not the case with you of course and ATC will continue to try and give a good service.

With all the 'duty of care' issues around we only want you to enjoy flying and for us not to end up in court for not giving the right advice.