Cub landings?

[Pogs]

All,

Can anybody talk me through the landing processes of a Cub please? I've generally been pleased with my landings of nose wheel acft but the Cub is a different matter all together. The little sweetie behaved delightfully in the air yet the transition to earth was a many bounced and a rather brutal affair. Is this normal or is this just a clumsy nose wheel pilot learnig the art of dragging my tail? Of course I had an Instructor with me and after the third attempt he started to make encouraging noises but...

Thanks

Pogs

[Aerobatic Flyer]

Hi,

About a year ago I made an almost identical post to your's. I couldn't get to grips with landing a cub (90hp flapless version). Lots of people posted helpful answers.

Here's the original thread. (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=67757)

Anyway, I had a lot of trouble with the cub last September, and stopped flying it for a long time. I did a couple of flights earlier in the summer, and then again today which was Cub Solo day!

As a complete beginner to Cub landings, but having managed a handful of decent ones on my own this morning, here are my tips:


Make sure you're trimmed properly on the approach.
The stick needs to be all the way back - and as the elevators are quite heavy, this needs more of a pull than other types.
Fly with an instructor who doesn't keep asking you to lean over so he can read the ASI !


I can assure you that it's very satisfying when you get it right. Have fun!

[Zlin526]

The Cub has got to be one of the easiest tailwheelers to land. But its easy for me to say, with more hours than i care to remember on them!

Ok, here's how I do it.

1. Note which attitude the aircraft sits at when taxying out to the runway. This is what you want to see when you are 1ft above the runway on landing.

2. Set up the approach early, at the correct speed (50-55mph-ish) and CORRECTLY trimmed for the approach speed. Take your hands off the stick and let the aeroplane fly itself down the glideslope to see if it's trimmed correctly.

3. Maintain that speed until at the height of about 6 to 4ft over the runway.

4. Gently round out and get to the previously noted attitude.

5. Use the stick to maintain that attitude (You'll find the stick will be moving back as the speed decreases...) and of course, it will have been a glide approach.

6. Once the aircraft touches down on all 3 points, and only then, gently move the stick fully aft and hold it right back against the stops until you are down to a walking pace. If you snatch the stick aft, and with a higher than necessary speed, the aircraft will balloon.

7. Keep the aircraft straight on the runway, with no exceptions. Look at the far hedge and even if the nose swings an inch, correct it immediately. Have high standards right from the start - weaving is not good enough!

8. Turn off the runway, then go and practice it again, and again.

9. At all times, fly the aeroplane, but dont let the aeroplane fly you!

Of course, this is all without a crosswind, but the principle is still there. Just have a wing down into wind and land normally, moving the stick into wind as the speed decreases.

Landing any tailwheel aeroplane is best tried on grass for the first time, then moving to a hard surface once you can keep the aircraft 100% straight. Its not difficult, just different, and makes you realise just what rudder pedals are for.

If somebody who's checking you out needs to look at the ASI then they can't fly a Cub properly!




Aerobatic Flyer,
did I fly with you last year?

[Aerobatic Flyer]

Aerobatic Flyer,
did I fly with you last year?

Don't think so - and definitely not in a Cub, as the chap I flew with can't write English like that!

[Genghis the Engineer]

Can't disagree with anything Zlin says, but I'll add two things...

(1) On the ground, before taking off, take your chinagraph out of your pocket and mark a small line on the canopy in front of you directly in-line with the horizon.

Then, for landing, use that as your landing attitude reference. I do this whenever I fly a new taildragger type, makes life a lot easier since I find that my ability to accurately remember the 3-point attitude when landing after flying for an hour or so is limited.

Best to rub it off before giving the aeroplane back however.


(2) Spend a qualty hour before flying with the manual, and transfer all the key operating speeds - especially approach speed - to your kneeboard. Then use them - as exactly as possible; taildraggers are far more intolerant than nosewheel aeroplanes of not using the right approach speed.


G

[LowNSlow]

As mentioned above, the correct approach speed is crucial to taildragger landings. 5 mph above the correct touchdown speed and you will go soaring back up when you ease the stick back :uhoh:

I used to use the following technique in my 65 hp Cub. Do be aware that this suited my particular aeroplane, it may or may not suit yours:

1. High approach
2. Trim full aft (nose up)
3. Throttle closed

This would result in a best glide speed descent.

4. Side slip off the height as necessary (into the wind if there is a crosswind)
5. Straighten up at a comfortable height over the runway (about five to ten feet up).
6. Allow the aeroplane to settle gently as the airspeed decreases.
7. When all 3 wheels touchdown, stick gently back into beer belly and HOLD.
8. Keep straight using the rudders but not the brakes unless there is a REAL need (ie dopey twit walking across runway).
9. Roll to a standstill and receive the applause of the awe struck audience (optional and rarely heard).

[Zlin526]

One thing I will add is that the Super Cub has a spring in the elevator cable circuit. This tends to fool people into thinking the stick is fully back, when it isn't. Just pull hard like you're trying to bend the stick and it will be fully back against the stops (but for you Charles Atlas's out there, dont actually bend the stick!:8). The J3/L4 Cub hasn't got this spring fitted and its a pussy to land..

Pogs,

One other piece of advice is to relax on the controls. I have flown with hundreds of pilots who couldn't master the landings at first, but then found out they were too tense on the controls.
R-E-L-A-X like you're being massaged by Britney Spear's Mum and it will be a lot easier...

Relax, and enjoy the fact you're flying a superior aeroplane. You dont see many nosewheel Spitfires or Mustangs! :ok:

ZzZzZzZzZlin 526

[Arclite01]

When I learned to land the Cub (PA18-135) I found that you had to judge height from the ground really well. As the undercarriage is so sprung, a drop from more than 5 feet will bounce you up and kangaroo down the runway even if you are fully stalled/3 pointer attitude.

So, get about 2 feet off the ground, let the speed bleed right off, then raise the nose a tad, you'll know its time to land because the stick comes all the way back (my Cub you could feel it touch the seat front !), the aeroplane feels 'dead' in your hands - you will know what I mean...........

And touchdown !!!, no bounce, just make sure you you keep it straight.......don't relax until you have stopped completely.

And make sure you are fully throttled back and have correct flap setting or they float on and on and on.........

Wait til you try flapless landings........:}

Enjoy

Arc

[Flyin'Dutch']

Useful advice by most.

I would wholeheartedly recommend 'The Compleat Taildragger pilot' by Harvey S. Plourde as a good read with useful advice.

FD

[QDMQDMQDM]

The Plourde book is excellent and I particularly recommend his account of the 'stall-down' landing which is very satisfying on the odd occasion when it works as planned.

Super cubs (and I presume cubs too) with their big fat high lift wing like to float, so control speed on the approach very closely. 5 mph too fast and you'll be all over the shop, ballooning up and down in the flare.

Once you get used to them they are the most forgiving, lovely aircraft in the world and, allegedly, one of the easiest taildraggers to land. Taildraggers are just more difficult than nosewheel, that's all. But more fun too!

QDM

[Kingy]

Some great advice already on this, but may I add a few things (I'm currently doing about 100Cub hrs a year)

First off, accept a few facts about the Cub...

1. You cannot see much out straight ahead in either the approach or landing - Get used to this!. Many people have an overwhelming urge to lower nose in order to see more - try to overcome this.

2. The Cub has really bouncy undercarriage - that's what makes it a good trainer. You will be hurled back in the air if you touch those main wheels too early. (Far more so than a Champ for example)

3. They sometimes need a fairly hefty yank on the elevators to flare. This is surprising, as it seems out of keeping with the general feel at all other times. Worst case would be a glide approach/forward CofG scenario. Think about the trim system though - the whole tailplane moves... trim it back correctly and you instantly have more authority.. this can help a lot.

Sorry if this all sounds obvious but I wish someone had spelt it out for me (its taken about a billion botched landings for me to find this out myself)

Anyway - it’s not all bad news...

They're just about the best sideslipping machine ever. If you want to see where you are going, put in some slip and control the rate of descent with throttle as normal - Ok you will need to kick it off before the flare, but being in better visual contact will make the approach easier.

The Cub has fantastic low speed handling. Go on, take her up to 3000', try flying at 55,50 then 45mph (maybe with an instructor) - wang the controls around a bit - solid as a rock! Ok the ailerons get a little woolly but the rudder is still very powerful. Do some stalls.. notice how the trim needs to be well back to get anything like a break. The Cub is not a worrying aircraft to fly slowly, so don't worry about the hold off - keep it coming back,back, back....

Here is a link for the budding J3 novice. Some of it is a bit silly, but well worth a read!


How to Fly a J3 Cub (http://www1.drive.net/evird.acgi$pass*22115176!_h-www.landings.com/sites/J-3-book/How-to-fly-J-3-Cub.html)

Best of luck, you'll be fine

Kingy

[FlyingForFun]

What you're experiencing is perfectly normal - it just takes a bit of practice.

Loads of useful answers. The only thing I can think to add is one thing which still helps me when I find my 3-pointers going wrong. As I round out and flare, I find it helps to say to myself (out loud, if necessary!) "Don't land yet, don't land yet, don't land yet." Sounds silly, may not work for you, but it works for me!

FFF
-------------

[QDMQDMQDM]

The Cub is not a worrying aircraft to fly slowly,

Hmm, therein lies its danger. They are deceptively docile. Super Cubs have the highest stall-spin accident rtate of any light aircraft. Watch out with steep turns close to the ground and also that turn onto final. They have caught out many a thousand hour plus cub driver.

QDM

[Kingy]

QDM,

Yes, Ok good point perhaps I should qualify that a little.

The J3/l4 will G break and drop a wing if you persistently crowd the stick back in the stall, especially if the ball is not centred. This is an aircraft developed in 1932 and as such it has not had all the bad habits designed out.

I do maintain that the Cub is very, very honest at slow speed and perhaps this can lead pilots into taking huge liberties sometimes. All aircraft bite fools and complacency is the killer.

Interestingly the USAAF discarded both the Aeronca (L3) and the Taylorcraft (L2) in favour of the L4 on the basis of superior low speed handling. The L2 was said to 'spin in' without warning and the L3 was said to 'not have the feeling of an impending stall of the Cub.. it just falls off'

I have personally found that the L4 has way, way more predictable slow handling than my 1941 Taylorcraft for example.

Anyway, back to the question, I was simply advising that Pogs fully explore the slow speed handling of the Cub at a safe height. One thing is for sure - the Cub needs to be pretty much stalled at touchdown to three-point without bouncing. Getting the feel of any aircraft in a high drag/low speed situation at a safe height is 'money in the bank' in the circuit IMHO.

Cordially

Kingy

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Pogs:

May I suggest two things that is vital for you to be truly profficient on any tailwheel airplane.

First: Find a competent tailwheel instructor, self taught is not the way to go.

Second: you will know if your instructor is competent if he/she teaches you wheel landings as well as three point.

Chuck E.

[BEXIL160]

When I was learning the "art" of properly landing the SuperCub(thank you Barry Dyke) my right arm would ache terribly after an hour, and holding the stick right back was a real effort against that spring.

A tip I found useful: Whenever I went to the supermarket I started carrying all my shopping bags in my right hand, gently raising and lowering them occasionally. It worked a treat for building the needed muscles;)

Best rgds
BEX

[Zlin526]

QDMQDMQDM,

I'd be interested in knowing where the Cub's stall spin accident rate is published...Any ideas, or just bar room gossip? Maybe it's just that an awful lot of Super Cubs are operated in marginal conditions in Alaska etc where the chances of an accident are high, even with superior piloting skills..FAA Stats maybe?

Other than a few glider tugs, I cant recall many Super Cubs/Cubs in the UK spinning in...Lots have succumbed to poor landing techniques or not coping with a swing on take off or landing.

I maintain that you'd have to be pretty stoopid to spin a Super Cub in. Its a pussy;)

Anyone ever spun a Super Cub? The Club where I instruct teaches spin recovery at a matter of course on the Cub checkout, although it's pretty near impossible to get it to spin unless the weight/CofG is exactly right.

Zlin

[QDMQDMQDM]

I'd be interested in knowing where the Cub's stall spin accident rate is published...Any ideas, or just bar room gossip? Maybe it's just that an awful lot of Super Cubs are operated in marginal conditions in Alaska etc where the chances of an accident are high, even with superior piloting skills..

It's from the NTSB stats, but I don't have the reference here. Yes, you're right you would apparently have to be pretty stupid to spin a Super Cub in, but a little bit of listening to the many thousand hour Super Cub pilots over at www.supercub.org has made me a lot less blase about it. They have huge respect for the 'Moose Stall', as they call it, and I went flying this summer with an 11,000 hour Alaskan Super Cub pilot (that's 11,000 hours on Super Cubs alone, never mind his hours on Beavers etc.) who was extremely, almost pathologically cautious about the whole stall-spin scenario.

I think stall-spin caution at low altitudes is something that you as an instructor should be encouraging. You should not be so dismissive and lull people into the idea that Super Cubs don't spin. They certainly do.

QDM

[Pogs]

Thanks one & all for your comments & suggestions and I'll try and keep them in mind on my next flight.

On a slightly different topic I went up in a Pitts SB2 today for a different view of the world & Sywell aerodrome. Waggle the stick & the world below waggles back! Waggle too much and my stomach wants to jettison breakfast. Great fun but I think I’ll leave aeros to those blessed with cast iron stomachs.

Thanks once again

Pogs :yuk:

[Zlin526]

QDM......

I didn't actually say that Super Cubs won't spin. All aircraft will spin, even 'unspinnable' ones, except some will spin more readily than others. All I said that it was a pussy, which it is.

Maybe the Alaskan called it a 'Moose' stall, because of the 5000kg Moose the pilot was bringing home for dinner, strapped to the struts?

Beaver, now there's an aeroplane. Done a shed load of hours in that as well, and that is a superb load hauler. You could strap a moose to that and fly all day!

Have a nice day:ok:

[QDMQDMQDM]

Maybe the Alaskan called it a 'Moose' stall, because of the 5000kg Moose the pilot was bringing home for dinner, strapped to the struts?

Yeah, could be. :D Actually, it's a moose stall because it's what happens when you're down at 200 feet, tracking a moose and pull hard and over rudder the turn.

My 11,000 hour Super Cub friend once had five people in his machine, including him. He was rescuing them from a crash site by a frozen lake, the weather was breaking and any that he had left would have died by the time he came back for them. Mind boggling!

But what a superb machine.

QDM

[big pistons forever]

I found when trying to teach spam can pilots how to fly the cub/champ/t-cart/C120, they could not believe how slow the airplane would be when it touched down in the proper 3 point attitude. Invariably they would let the plane touch too early and hence too fast resulting in the inevitable bouncing. I still remember one students great comment ( we were flying a 7AC Champ). He said " I finally get it, you keep coming back on the stick untill the runway stops going by underneath you and then you land ! ";)

[Gertrude the Wombat]

Beaver, now there's an aeroplane. Done a shed load of hours in that as well Where d'you get Beaver training then? For fun? (On floats of course.) Everyone I've asked just laughs and says first you buy your Beaver, then you hire someone to teach you to fly it.

[Zlin526]

Gertrude,

Go to Alaska or Canada (especially the Northern Territories), and you'll find a Beaver....Most of which are on floats.:ok:

(There was one on floats at Loch Earn in Scotland, but not sure if it is still flying)

Z526

[Arclite01]

Most people in this thread must be Mathematicians there are so many tangents being gone off on here..........;)

We are missing a key element - is Pogs landing on Grass or Tarmac ?

Unless the strip is smooth as a Babys (like stiks :ok: ) then even a good landing can feel rough as a bears behind........ All the rough bits are transmitted through the undercarriage. Landing on concrete or black stuff is a lot smoother and a half reasonable landing makes you feel a bit of an ace........... I remember pulling off a real 'greaser' at Southend one time in the Cub, I was wandering round the restaurant looking like I'd had a coathanger in my mouth the smile was so big....... Even my instructor was surprised - I remeber him say 'have we landed yet ?' at the same time as the controller was saying 'exit at taxiway bravo G-KB !!'

Hope this stuff is all helping you Pogs......

[Gertrude the Wombat]

Go to Alaska or Canada (especially the Northern Territories), and you'll find a Beaver....Most of which are on floats. Yes, I've flown in several Beavers in Alaska and Canada, most recently a couple of months ago. As a passenger. But none of them had dual controls and in none of them were lessons on offer.

(OK, so this summer the pilot of a chartered Beaver did throw the wheel over to my side and let me steer it about the sky for a few minutes, but I slightly doubt that was legal.)