Where do I put my mum?

[Penguina]

Another 'first' in the Penguina flying history may come to pass tomorrow - a 'not so relaxed' passenger.

Am taking me ma and pa to visit my grandparents near Beccles. I have a strong suspicion that my mum may be nervous and asked smurph where he thought she should be seated: front or back. Smurph came up with some quite interesting comments:

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
My instinct is that she will probably be happier in the back. There she will know that she won't be able to throw the plane into a spin or dive by accidentally touching the column or pedals, or have her knee knock the ejector seat or self destruct buttons! Also, in the event of a forced landing, it won't be her responsibility to get the door open etc and she won't be in the way but will simply have to follow you out. It will also be less obvious to her that you are not ALWAYS looking out from there...

On the other hand (devil's advocate here) the front does give a less bumpy ride and a better view which may reduce any nervousness she has. Also, if her overriding worry is getting out of a forced landing (and is not worried about turbulence or interfering with the controls) then that might dictate that the front is better for her.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Thinking about it, it probably depends on the psychology of the individual how you help them to stay as calm as possible. Anyone got extensive experience of this? FFF also pointed out that you want to look as calm and un-busy as possible, make it look easy, which conflicted with my instincts that it's best to look busy so that they get the impression you know what you're doing... :ooh: :O

[dublinpilot]

If there is any likely hood of her feeling air sick, then make sure she sits up front, where she can see the horizion ahead.

Personally, I'm inclined to think up front is better. She'll have a better view outside, and therefore less likely to concentrate on whats going on inside!

If she sits in the back, then most of her view will be of you doing your stuff!

[smurph]

Good point. Whatever my own anxieties may be when flying in small
aircraft, they are rarely to do with travel sickness so I hadn't given
it much thought. However, if that's a serious consideration in this
case then it could dictate whether she goes in the front or back. Just
one thought though, if someone is sick :yuk:
in the aircraft they may prefer
to be in the back when it happens (though I agree that being up front
would be better to help prevent it in the first place).

I certainly hope Penguina's mum isn't ill and is feeling up to eating
the Thai curry I may be cooking for them for supper in the evening!

[Penguina]

Mmmm Mum's not normally travel sick, but there's no saying what nervousness could do... :yuk: If she is, _I_ would prefer she went in the back!

Where is the most solid feeling place in a 172, do you think?

[Evo]

Interesting question.

Once you have 50 hours and a PPL it is easy to forget what a strange environment a light aeroplane is to someone who has never flown in anything smaller than a 737. In my limited experience, I've found that giving nervous passengers a go with the controls works well. Once they discover for themselves how stable an aeroplane is (it isn't wobbling on the edge of a spin as they might have imagined) and that they can easily do some gentle turns to feel how it is controlled they tend to relax. With slightly more confident pax i've demonstrated the "nightmare" scenarios of PFLs and stalls (what, we don't just fall out of the sky and crash?!?). I guess they aren't for everyone, but if they can cope it highlights how little can really go wrong in the cruise.

Only problem with this is that you effectively have to take an aeroplane out in to the local area and teach them effects of controls part one. :)

[Gertrude the Wombat]

Re passengers worrying about being sick.

They haven't had the training you've had (about things like opening your mouth and saying so when you're bothered about something). They might not tell you. They might just sit there worrying about it. For the entire flight.

Especially if you forget to show them where the sick bags are in the pre flight briefing you give them.

I won't get that one wrong again.

[Penguina]

Your reply has been noted and will be duly acted upon!

Thanks for the cautionary tale... :D

[Flap40]

Also expect questions like

HER: "why is that light on?"

ME: explanation given.

30 seconds later....

HER: (pointing to a different light) "why is that light NOT on?";) :confused: ;)

Also if you ask them to keep an eye out for any other traffic you should fully expect to have every 747 pointed out despite being 30,000ft above you.

[Tall_guy_in_a_152]

My parents both like travelling up front. This is partly because I do not have a four place intercom, so it can get a bit lonely in the back. I always brief the front seat passenger to relay everything I say to the back!

I always let it be known that sick bags are available if needed (but kept out of sight). I remember reading a CAA safety sense leaflet that suggested never using the word 'sick' - always replace with softer words like 'unwell'. Probably good advice.

My Mum was surprisingly interested in what eveything was for in the cockpit and how all the instruments work. I probably had to make some of it up!

I have only had one chuka-uppa so far. It was a colleague from work and his parents (who had NEVER flown before) were in the back We had to go around from short final due to traffic not vacating the runway ahead and at just that instant he chose to lean forward and retrieve his sunglasses from the floor. The combined pulling-up / leaning forward and flying towards the setting sun made him go very pale indeed. Late downwind he erupted like I have never seen anyone erupt before. He managed to cover most instruments and controls, and the windscreen. I had to clear a small section of windscreen to see ahead, but mostly looked through the side window. Every time I touched the throttle it squished. Lovely.

Needless to say there was much embarassment back on terra-firma, but everyone (myself included) was very impressed with how calm I remained and concentrated on getting the plane back down. It took months for the smell to clear from that aircraft. And when I got home I found something unpleasant in the fold of my kneeboard.

The oldies still loved the flight, despite their son's best efforts, but they have never asked for another go ...

Well I'm off for my dinner now ....

[Charlie Zulu]

Hi Penguina,

Just a quick word about landing.

If I take a first time passenger new to light aircraft flying, or someone who hasn't flown with me before, I'll explain the following:

"Whilst landing, when we are a few feet above the runway, ie very close to the runway, you *may* hear a loud buzzing sound. This is completely normal as we aim to touch down on the runway when we hear this sound. However sometimes we may touch down without the buzzing sound. This is also fine." etc etc... If they ask for more info then I'll go on to further explain.

Why? I say this since I took my sister flying many moons ago just after passing my PPL and we were above the runway when the stall warner sounded and she panicked until we had touched down (a couple of seconds later)... luckily not touching the controls.

Also, especially if there is a crosswind:

"When landing you may see the runway is not directly in front of us, it may appear slightly to our left/right. This is also completely normal because we are compensating for the effects of the wind trying to blow us off the centre of the runway. Think of a tide in the water, the air is to the aeroplane what water is to a boat. Just before landing this will be corrected so the runway will appear directly in front of us."

I generally try to explain at all times what is going on. Ie, why the sound of the engine is lower than that at take off, why we are flying past the runway (downwind) etc.

As someone else said, ask them to look for other aeroplanes, BUT they can discount anything with vapour trails. This gives them something to do and feel important to the flight.

Hope your mum enjoys the flight.

Best wishes,

Charlie Zulu.

[Keef]

Many, many moons ago I took my late-lamented mum and mother-in-law for a jolly in the C177 I flew then.

Mother-in-law sat in the front and pointed out every local feature of note - she loved it! She recognised the houses, was amazed at who had a pool in the back garden, and all the rest.

My mum (much more nervous) sat in the back, and from the moment we rotated for takeoff, kept asking "are we landing yet?" She pushed hard on the back of my seat, in the hope that would make us go down. I'm extremely glad she was in the back, or I might not be here now.

So if in doubt, put 'em in the back!

I've had one pax do a Huey in the back, but she said she often got travel sick so she had the bag location pointed out to her. No problem - it was all "contained".

My most frightening was when I took our Curate - over 20 stone and solid muscle - for a local trip. He seemed OK till the takeoff run, then froze with his arms locked and his hands firmly on the coaming. If he'd locked to the yoke, we'd have been dead - I could never have removed him! As it was, I had to ask Tower for an "urgent return and landing" - they recognised the tone in my voice and cleared me for "whatever you need." A fairly tight circuit, not too steep an angle of bank followed.

Once he'd recovered his composure, he asked if I'd try again. I told him his flights with me as P1 were over ;)

[kabz]

Surely Keef, the man upstairs would have been P1 ... :}

[Keef]

Nah. CFI I am led to believe (and head of the CAA, and ...)

[BRL]

A great thread this, I would say stick her in the front and point loads of things out to her along the way. Maybe give her the map so she can identify landmarks etc. Point out your grandmas house and do a few 'circuits' of it if at all possible. Point out any other landmark she may recognise and she will love it. I reckon the first 5 mins or so will be the worst but you will be busy so try and explain exactly what you will be doing so she doesnt get too freaked out.
I hope all goes well for you. and I bet your mum loves it at the end of the day. :ok:
Good luck.

[expedite_climb]

Certain a/c, e.g. PA28 the pitching is more apparent in the back due to being behing c of g not on it, hence may make her feel sick. Put her in the front.

[down&out]

I took my Mum & her boyfriend flying a long time ago. She is VERY scared of heights - will not even go in a cable car, but he was full of bravado and saying he was V much looking forward to it!

So Mum goes in back (more to look at inside) & boyfriend up front. After take off HE goes white:uhoh: and has to be comforted throughout by Mum!!!!!

I haven't persuaded either back in the a/c with me since! (but they do love it when I fly over their house)

[mark147]

One more suggestion that no-one's mentioned yet: I have always found passengers quite unnerved by the sensation you get when you retract the flaps. It's something that I've not really noticed since my very first lesson but people definitely feel something.

I always say something like "you might notice a strange sensation now, while I retract the flaps". That's about the best way I can describe it, but it definitely helps.

In general, I'd advise you make some comment about anything that you change, before you change it, especially power.

My vote is for the front seat: that way she'll see what you're doing and she can also see your face. Being able to look calm and smile a lot relaxes people enormously.

If you do put her in the back, don't let your front seat passenger 'have a go'. If anything will scare her, that will.

Mark

[Pink_aviator]

HI PENGUINA

I was one of the first to read your post and was very tempted to say

"Put her on the bus "

But I quickly realised that this was to be a family flight ,for you ALL to ENjoy together.,and that you wanted constructive advise ,and as per usual

"I hadn't read the question properly'"!!!1
(a sore point at the moment )

ANY WAY

"Where did you put your mum? "and "Did she and ALL of you enjoy it.?????


Pink-aviator
THE PINKSTER

[Penguina]

Hi all,

My mum was fine; however, no point hiding the fact that my arrival was not the elegant and impressive one I would have hoped to impress the olds with. IE, boing boing boing (******, keep thinking it's a 152 not a 172) 'going around'... :O Very embarrassing, lesson booked to brush-up...

That aside, it was a lovely flight on the way over that they thoroughly enjoyed. Mum chose to go in the back both ways and said afterwards that each time she was nervous on take-off and for the first 10 minutes or so, but then relaxed and really enjoyed it. She claimed it was to let my Dad enjoy the front, but I'm sceptical! And her first question was 'how do I get out in an emergency then?' Predictable!

I showed her their home town and we saw gran's cottage from 1500ft, which thrilled them. Dad got lots of pleasure in recognising features in a route he's driven so often and they both thought the coast looks beautiful.

Worsening viz made the flight home much harder work, but they were very (very :rolleyes: ) helpful in pointing out landmarks for me!

Judging from this, the back's better for my mum, but every pax is different...

Some very interesting replies to this thread, thank you very much! :)

P

Oh, and Pink, congratulations on the Met - that one took me longest to study for too. :D

[dublinpilot]

I always tell my first time pax, that the normal landing proceedure for a light aircraft is different to anything they have been used to, and that it will land with a bit of a thud.

That way they aren't surprised if it's a bit hard, but think I'm a super cool pilot if it's nice and soft :D

Obviously this doesn't work with second time pax (unless I fecked up the first one :O )

dp

[Penguina]

:D

Can see it now.

"Now you may find the landing procedure a bit strange at first. In light aircraft we have to wham it into the ground twice then apply power and fly round in a circle before landing. This is essential to prepare the wheels for the impact."

:O

[stiknruda]

I rarely have pax but I'm with Dublinpilot, I always tell them that this landing is going to be hard and will probably bounce - in the 2 seat Pitts that I borrow it generally is the case!

Beccles is not the easiest place especially if you need to contend with the grass/concrete interface landing towards the coast.

I've looped and rolled 5 "first light aircraft flights" pax in the last couple of weeks. Only one actually came close to venting but one found positive 3G too much and went to sleep for a few secs.... that certainly reinforced the responsibility of taking others up with me!

Stik

[Flyin'Dutch']

P,

Looking at the date I take it that the event has already been done and dusted.

However, with most folk that I take and are not too sure whether they like it I offer to fly a circuit or just the local area first.

That way they can have a look around in what is usually a familiar area and there is not the pressure on them to have to 'sit it out' until they are at a 'destination'

Make sure you are 'kewl' about the entire enterprise as most anxious folks have extremely good sensors for stress in others.

Have no idea of your own experience but it is probably a good idea to combine only very few firsts in any one flight.

Bon vol, and let us know how you got on. Hope it goes/went well because few things are as rewarding as sharing one's passion for flying with your nearest and dearest.

Ciao

FD

Doh! Forgot to read the second page before I posted! Glad to read it all went well!

[Penguina]

Flyin'Dutch:

Yes, you were right. In my personal post-mortem I decided that the things that went wrong partly did so because I felt under pressure to get it right and not communicate any anxiety.

Will be passing this on to fledglings when I'm old and wise and feel qualified to do so!!

Stiknruda:

Blimey! :)

[shortstripper]

In the case of the mother in law .... What about immediately above the bomb bay door?:E