FIS R/T question

[Max AirFactor]

Giving some thought to my QCX R/T.... On the Fairoaks to Lydd leg, I'll be calling Farnborough and Shoreham. How much routing info required and do I include ETAs ? I'm planning to pass the following to Farnbourough for example, though it seems a bit verbose.

G---
PA-38
Point of departure Fairoaks, Abeam Wisley,
220º
2000’, QNH nnnn
VFR destination Lydd (via Haslemere, L'hampton and Shoreham)
Request Flight information service

Thanks for your suggestions.

[Evo]

I'd do

"G-xxxx is a PA-38, student solo Fairoaks to Lydd via Littlehampton, currently abeam Wisley at 2000 feet on (QNH) nnnn, request flight information service"

Couple of points here. "student solo" is always worth saying IMHO. The route can be condensed a bit, telling them via Littlehampton covers the rest (i.e. you're not going via the Gatwick zone!) and there is no point in telling them the heading.

Generally I use

Callsign, Aircraft Type, Route, Position, Altitude, Request - covers the basics, if they need more info they'll ask :)

[Circuit Basher]

Evo - there's no one right way and this is frequently discussed, but I'd generally include the fact that I'm VFR, (as per a TRPACER call) as many ATSUs need to know this so that they can assess separation from other traffic.

[Evo]

Yeah, I add VFR too (as in ...is a Robin, VFR from A to B) - but I kind of figured it was implicit in "student solo" :)

[Tall_guy_in_a_152]

I tend not to give ETAs to a controller that I know has a RADAR (e.g. Farnborough) but otherwise would.

Bear in mind that Farnborough will want to pass you to Shoreham somewhere between Haslemere and L'hampton, so it might be worth planning an extra point on your PLOG e.g. 'abeam Billingshurst' so that you are ready.

I would also consider asking for a RIS rather than FIS. It doesn't put you under any obligations, and the traffic info could be useful in that busy airspace West of Gatwick. That reminds me, Dunsfold is shown as 'disused' on the chart, but is now active again (by invitation), so consider where arriving / departing traffic may be. Whichever service you request, Farnborough will ask you to squawk a code, so they will know where you are, even if you don't.

Have fun

TG

[FlyingForFun]

This is all good advice.

If you talk to an air traffic controller about this question, they generally try to encourage you to think about things from their point of view. There's no point telling them something they already know, or can see on their radar, or that they can figure out themselves.

If I'm flying a direct, or even a nearly direct, route from A to B, and there's no controlled airspace or any other reason why the direct route isn't the obvious route, I don't bother giving route information. I also don't bother if there's only one conceivable route that I could be taking around that bit of controlled airspace or whatever it is that's in the way.

On the other hand, if there's a Class D zone half way there, I often have the option of transitting the zone, flying above it, or going around it. The controller has no way of knowing which of those I'm going to do, so I will tell him.

Another case where I'll tell the controller is if I'm taking an odd route, for example to show a passenger a ground feature. I don't hear other people do this too often, but whenever I do it the controllers seem quite happy with it. I've even done it in controlled airspace - I was flying from Bournemouth to White Waltham (which is north-easterly, in case you don't know the area) a couple of months ago, and request "a departure to the south west for some aerial photography, will report departing the zone to the south and then turning on route", and was cleared exactly as I requested. My passenger was very pleased because he got a photo of his daughter's house.

Hope that's given you something to think about.

FFF
-------------

[BEagle]

Who you are: "G-xxxx, student solo PA38 VFR from Fairoaks to Lydd via Littlehampton."

Where you are: "Abeam Wisley at 2000 ft on (Altimeter setting)"

What you want to happen: "Request Flight Information Service"

Anything else the air traffickers want to know they'll ask! On your Q X-C you should only be flying in VFR weather and you shouldn't really need RIS.

[Kirstey]

But if you were to ask for a RIS - ask for it on first contact with the unit and then if you are given it confirm it again. (unnecc with a FIS). If you were to ask for a RIS I'd also use the TRIPACER and let them know my sqwak.

Agree that an estimate is a little pointless though

[Eira]

Remember on first contact not to give your life history. The very first call should simply be G-**** request FIS.
At this point the ATCO will come back with either standby or pass your message.
It is essential to respond that you are receiving a FIS when the ATCO has given it to you, it does not apply just to a RIS or RAS, you are forming a contract.
As FFF said routing information is not usually essential and will be asked for if required.
On a QXC it is wise to ring up the unit to which you are flying to before hand with your details and state you are on a QXC , this should then be annotated on the Flight Progress Strip for the ATCOs, this helps us in a number of ways. Yes we are aware of your limited skills level so will hopefully give more consideration to you if you are not immediately on the ball, and also we have to be asked how you flew before the form can be signed off so we are able to give more time towards assessing you for the phone call we know we will shortly receive.
Enjoy it, its the next big hurdle :ok:

[Kirstey]

Sorry Eira I beg to differ - You confirm you are in receipt of a Radar Service.

[Tall_guy_in_a_152]

The CAA Safety Sense leaflet on radio telephony can be found here:

http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/224/ssl22.pdf

It contains lots of examples of 'good' RT from the GA perspective and makes for a more interesting read than CAP 413.

TG.

[Eira]

Kirstey ,
if a pilot does not respond to me that they are under a FIS then I will badger them to respond to me until they do so. A FIS has all sorts of legal obligations on my part to the pilot. Thus I need to know that they are aware of what type of service they are under. If they cannot be bothered to read that back then they shouldn't ask for one.

[Kirstey]

What legal obligations?

[YYZ]

If you do not want a service you do not have to ask for one? You do not have to talk to anyone for that matter, not good airmanship but true.

QXC do obviously have too be done in VFR so FIS is adequate but there is nothing wrong with asking for RIS if you so desire.
:8

[Northern Highflyer]

I would use :

G xxxx is a PA28 out of xxxxxxx
routing to xxxxxx
via xxxxxx (as said before - only if necessary)
currently abeam/etc xxxxxxx at xxxx feet, QNH xxxx
VFR
request xxxxx (service)

then request entry into the zone later on if it is class D (unless you are alomost at the boundary).

I wouldn't bother with the direction (i.e. 200 degrees) as they can see you on radar. Your position and route tells ATC where you are and where you are going. Try not to overcomplicate it.

I was going to use the "student solo" phrase when I did my QXC but the unit were expecting me and were very accommodating before I had chance to say it.

Best of luck. :ok:

[Evo]

"student solo" got me fantastic service from Boscombe on my QXC ... and Solent wouldn't let me in :O :{ but usually it got me a patent and helpful service from whatever unit I was talking to my PPL navexs - i'm often tempted to lie now :)

[Fly Stimulator]

i'm often tempted to lie now

You could pretend to be a student, but perhaps it would be more entertaining to go to the other extreme...

"Solent good afternoon, this is G-LIAR, PA28 Heavy out of Compton Abbas for Shoreham, 450 POB, climbing FL350 requesting zone transit"

[Eira]

Kirstey,
FIS is a grey area for many. When providing a FIS I have a moral obligation (and yes this is written down wish i could find the page for you) to provide information where I believe there is a definite risk of collision. The get out clause says I may be to busy to do so and that a pilot is still responsible for their own separation, however in the event of a incident all R/T tapes get pulled and workload assessed and if they determine i had a few seconds in which to tell you that your flight was in danger I could lose my licence.
There is also the issue of what is going on in a controllers mind, because we have to deal with on a very regular basis GA who fly very seldomly (if you drove only 10 hrs a year then yes you wouldn't be to hot a driver either) and skills are slow then it is essential again to us that you are absolutely clear as to what service you are being provided with. When a squawk is issued and you are identified there are some out there who then believe they are receiving a radar service and complacency may set in , the simple read back of FIS again puts in the mind of both pilot and controller what service is being provided.

[FlyingForFun]

Eira,

I agree with everything you've said.

But I wonder: when you say "the simple read back of FIS again puts in the mind of both pilot and controller what service is being provided", with regard to 10-hours-a-year pilots, I would guess that reading back the phrase "Flight Information Service" might not help the situation. I'd guess that the type of pilot you're talking about actually doesn't understand exactly what a FIS is - he didn't understand it before you offered it to him, he doesn't understand it now, and no matter how many times he reads it back to you, he still won't understand it. Maybe.

(I'd also suggest that singling out 10-hours-a-year pilots might not be entirely fair. There are plenty of people who can't afford to fly very often, but are sufficiently enthusiastic to have a thorough understanding of flying - so although their landings may not be perfect every time, they will definitely know what a FIS is. And I bet there are one or two who fly regularly, but can't be bothered to look up rules and regulations, and don't really understand what's going on behind the scenes. But that's not very relevant to the thread, just an intersting sideline.)

FFF
---------------

[Max AirFactor]

Much gratitude for your quality responses.
This will help me keep things simple and precise. I had assumed a FIS but hear what has been said about RIS. And thanks for the other pointers.

How about this weather, hope its around when I do the qcx.

MAF

[Fuji Abound]

As someone else said you occasionally hear new PPLs giving their heading (220 dgs or whatever) not least because the CAP says so. In reality your position and routing identifies you and where you are going so I wouldnt bother with a heading.

It is interesting how often people give some other QHN to the station they are talking to - obviously left over from the last station spoken to. Taken a moment to pick up from another RT call the QNH at Farnborough or where ever or listen to the ATIS first.

My own view is student or not ask for a radar information service. You will hopefully be setting off on a lovely day with maybe plently of others around and the Farnborough area is always busy. If they will give you the service why not accept it - it adds an additional margin on safetly particularly when you mgiht well be concentrating on navigating anyway.

[Eira]

FFF,
the point I was trying to make , and I just pulled the figure of 10hrs out of the air, was that we are aware as ATCOs that it is extremely expensive to fly and if you don't get the opportunity to fly too often then you may not be as "hot" on various skills.

Repeating information is a well known way of placing something fully in your mind, its called "laying down a memory"
When you don't fly to often I would think everything you have to help you remember is a useful tool.
We are not just the bad guys you know ;) we do think of you with consideration.

[T/O]

What does RIS mean?

? Radar Information Service ????

If yes, is it the same frequency as for IFR flights, or do they have their own frequency?

Generally, how is the radar coverage in the UK?


Thx!

[Kirstey]

Eira,

Cheers for the reply. It was the provide Traffic Information "Where Practical" or similar that made be wonder exactly how much of an obligation ATCO or FISOs have?

Where do you ply your trade?

[Eira]

Kirstey, this is an anonymous forum and I wish to remain anonymous ;) however I do work for NATS at a large airfield.
T/O RIS is yes a radar information service. Each unit is different , on some units you will be mixed with IFR traffic on the approach frequency on others you maybe operating a LARS service , on which they to may have IFR traffic. It will depend on the type of unit you are working but where possible we try to separate LARS from the approach as it can be awkward trying to turn aircraft onto the ILS when someone free calls you looking for LARS

[Circuit Basher]

Fuji Abound - back to your 17 Sep 03 1635 post - what's a QHN?? Was this a dyslexic translation of 'QNH'?? :D

[Whirlybird]

A couple of points;

Firstly, don't worry too much. If you miss something out, and the ATCO needs it, they'll ask you. And I may be wrong, but I think most of them would prefer that to being given too much information.

Secondly, someone (FFF?) mentioned about them not minding your detour to show passengers something etc. They don't mind at all. Our Dawn to Dusk entry a couple of years ago had over 40 turning points, and our calls went something like this: "...from A to B via numerous turning points as we're taking part in the Dawn to Dusk competiton. Request FIS". As far as I remember, Shawbury gave us a squawk and left us to get on with it, and Cardiff just asked us to report if we changed altitude. And I regularly say I'd be doing a little sightseeing in the so-and-so area, or something similar.

Radio use just comes down to communication, basically. But it took me a long time to realise that.

[Solo Hire]

Only other thing I would add ('cos I got caught on my QXC) is... be prepared for the unexpected.

I called xxxxx Radar, Good Morning, G-xxxx.

The response was G-xxxx, squawk 1234, Flight Information Service.

So I read back the squark and confirmed the FIS, then proceded to tell him my life story because that's what I was trained to do, (who you are, where you, etc), which was clearly not required as the previous ATC unit had passed all the details on.

Just a thought.

[rodan]

So I read back the squark and confirmed the FIS, then proceded to tell him my life story because that's what I was trained to do, (who you are, where you, etc), which was clearly not required as the previous ATC unit had passed all the details on.

The convention here is that if the previous controller told you to 'Contact xyz radar on 123.45' then they have handed you over to the next controller - ie, passed all your details and position - and you do not need to tell them.

If they use the word 'Freecall' instead, or something like 'suggest you call' or 'continue en-route', then you will need to pass your details again.


From CAP 493:

Mandatory Read-backs:

Level instructions
Heading instructions
Speed instructions
Airways or route clearances
Runway in use
Clearance to enter, land on, take-off, backtrack, cross or hold short of an active runway
SSR operating instructions
Altimeter settings
VDF information
Frequency changes
Type of radar service


I checked because I thought Eira was right about FIS readback, I was surprised to learn otherwise. So I suppose the onus is on the pilot to know and understand what service he/she is under.

Must read the book more often.

[FlyingForFun]

The convention here is that if the previous controller told you to 'Contact xyz radar on 123.45' then they have handed you over to the next controller - ie, passed all your details and position - and you do not need to tell them.

If they use the word 'Freecall' instead, or something like 'suggest you call' or 'continue en-route', then you will need to pass your details againAnother interesting point is that if you are told to "Contact" someone, you are expected to contact them. If you are told to "freecall" them, it's up to you.

For example: a few months ago, I was receiving a FIS from a local approach controller. It was a pretty quiet time of day, so as I left her area, she arranged a handover to the next airfield for me, and told me to "Contact" them.

What she didn't know was that I needed a DACS from London Information, and didn't want to talk to the unit she was handing me over to because they weren't able to negotiate the DACS for me.

Had she told me to "Freecall" the next unit, it wouldn't have been a problem. But because I was told to "Contact" them, and she'd handed over all my details, I had to explain that actually I wasn't going to the frequency she told me to (with a brief explaination of why not) so that she could contact them again and tell them not to expect me. Pity, really - it's nice to get that level of service, and a shame that I couldn't take advantage of it on that occassion.

FFF
----------------

[Pianorak]

TG - Thanks for providing that link to Safety Leaflet 22 which states i.a.: “. . . Additional frequencies . . . will be introduced in 1999” which seems to indicate the present edition might be some 5 years old. Have done a search but cannot find a newer, updated version. Does anyone know if there is a newer version somewhere?

[IO540]

FFF

Unfortunately I've seen a number of cases where I was told to CONTACT XYZ and my details were not passed on, perhaps due to workload.

This was in the UK, but abroad (France/Spain) few if any controllers appear to know the distinction.

[Keef]

I find that in the UK, "Contact" almost always means you're being handed over. "Freecall" is used otherwise.

In France, it's always "Contact" and you can assume nothing from it. In the days when Lille Approach would talk to VFR flights, I was invariably told to "Contact London Information" - who had no idea I was coming. Nor did I really want to talk to them, if Manston was open.

[skydriller]

Ive been here in France for almost 2 years now and have NEVER been handed over from one service to another regardless of any wording used, anywhere in france. I hope someone can now come on here and tell me its happened to them:p

Regards, SD

[rotorcraig]

Safety Leaflet 22 contains the advice:

Pilots requesting [from a FISO] departure may be advised:
‘Take off at you discretion’ or ‘Depart at your discretion’

The pilot should not respond by repeating the phrase: ‘at my
discretion’ No clearance has been given, there is no requirement to read one back. The pilot should simply respond:

'G-XX Roger' or 'G-XX'

Firstly, must admit that I learnt something here, having always repeated ‘at my discretion’ to date

But ... also think that I would have replied 'Roger G-XX' rather than 'G-XX Roger' :confused: :confused:

[PA7]

Max Air Factor
Hope your flight went well, I work at one of the busiest LARS units and what we want from a pilot is Call sign, Type, From, to, level and type of service required.
Take into account the flight conditions and level of activity before asking for a RIS, if you have to fight to get a word in the chances of getting a RIS will be slim. The other problem is that it may give a pilot flying through busy class G airspace a false sense of security, when in fact the conroller may be too busy or distracted to provide the service. We do however still provide generic traffic information to traffic receiving a FIS.
It is worth noting that Controller workloads increase dramatically when providing a RIS, hence when the traffic levels are high the request for the RIS just takes up valuable RT time.

Enjoy your flying and give us a call next time you fly through :ok:

[High Wing Drifter]

Regarding the decision to RIS or FIS. I guess it is a matter of local knowledge as to what service you will receive. FIS without a squawk is oftentimes about as much use as a chocolate teapot. Generally, asking for a FIS gets me a virtual LARS service without the need for me to tell the controller that I am ready to climb, descend, turn, etc.

IMHO, asking for RIS from Farnborough, Brize, etc is just introducing inefficiency. The CAA should reclassify (and maybe rename) FIS as a lesser LARS service rather than the archaic London Information variety or possibly do away with the current RIS protocol and make RIS what FIS is with most LARS providers.

[PA7]

High Wing Drifter


Quote;
IMHO, asking for RIS from Farnborough, Brize, etc is just introducing inefficiency. The CAA should reclassify (and maybe rename) FIS as a lesser LARS service rather than the archaic London Information variety or possibly do away with the current RIS protocol and make RIS what FIS is with most LARS providers


So are we just looking at a change of name for the FIS here or are you suggesting that Controllers provide more traffic info etc to the pilots. If that is the case on a busy Sunday all you will get is a Lesser LARS.

:eek:

[High Wing Drifter]

PA7,

Hmm, I didn't explain that very well did I? What I mean is that RIS requires more communication. Also, that RIS is denied just when it is supposed to be needed most - when the airspace is very busy. Currently, if you ask for FIS from a LARS provider you get a half-way house between FIS and RIS (a squawk and lots of useful information).

What I am saying is that to simplify the situation, FIS should be as it is defined...a non-radar service only. RIS should be simplified to be nothing more than FIS with a squawk, so no need for the all that extra chit-chat...

...wizard!

:O

[PA7]

High Wing Drifter

I see your point, there has been debate about leaving all FIS traffic on 7000 squawks and only providing a service to a/c on RIS & RAS, to cut down on controller workload. The problem is that many pilots may then not bother calling for a service which then increases the workload on the approach controller as he tries to avoid all the unknowns. For pilots on a RIS the service would improve, however there is still a limit to the amount of traffic that would be accepted on a RIS as no doubt everybody calling would be requesting the service. The FIS traffic would get little or no traffic information, so a change in procedure would benefit but a few. The other pilots would be worse off in the long run.
I think that we provide a balance between the needs of the provider and the needs of the pilot, any move in direction and one or both may lose out.

:cool: