Fixed-wing or Rotary career? (incl Changing licence to Rotary)

[clear to land]

Just pondering, and looking for feedback from those in the know. If you were dual qualified (A and H),and reasonably experienced on both (but more on plank), would you aim for long term rotary or plank. I have no desire to fly long haul, and would be happy with a reasonable salary. Your thoughts please gentlemen (and ladies).

[helidrvr]

From my experience doing both, flying with seized rotors becomes very boring after a short time. All airports look the same after all and the cruise portion (95%) of the flight offers little redeeming value. A plank career obviously has the potential of leading to one of those jobs where your taxes will be more than most helicopter pilots' entire salaries. But as in everything, there is a price to pay first.

From a "Joy of Flying" perspective (or Zen if you are that way inclined) rotor craft win hands down for me. A joy ride in an L33 can be fun, but as a full time vocation there is no flying like helicopter flying. It has an endless variety of activities to keep even the most jaded on their toes - logging, construction, scenic, EMS scenes, off-shore, SAR, ship-to-shore, VIP transport, luxury yachts, UN missions etc. etc. The list is endless. Last but not least, we often find ourselves developing relationships with our customers which last well beyond the job.

The flight pay may (justifyably) not be on par with airlines in general, but for the ambitious there are still good money making opportunities in the helo business as well. Logging, overseas and becoming a small operator are some that come to mind.

So I'll stick with the greates flying machines ever invented. I like being able to stop BEFORE I land.

[EESDL]

=====ditto=====

[Arkroyal]

Clear to Land

Agree with above sentiments

It's an old truth that Rotary pilots work for a living, And I enjoyed my Navy and Police helo flying Immensely.

As I got older, I moved over for the potential bigger bucks towards retirement and a bigger pension.

You don't say how old you are, but the world would appear to be your oyster. Enjoy the helicopters until the flying turns your hair grey, then put your feet up in a jet.

:) edited for bad spelin!

[This message has been edited by Arkroyal (edited 29 September 2000).]

[mediummetal]

Couldn't agree more.I've been thinking about putting me feet up too and was wondering if you had any suggestions about entering the fixed wing retirement program. I have the IFR rating but have found myself pulling logs instead of flying in the clouds most of my career.Thanks for any suggestions.

[Kaarrff]

I agree with Arkroyal. Helis are great fun when you are young but flying a plank is soooooo relaxed. I have 8,000 rotary (crab, fish and north sea) and 3,500 plank (Boeings, 50/50 charter and schedule). As a plank skipper you'll get in excess of £3,300 net a month. What would a rotary guy get? Oh, and no goon-suit plus coffee/tea every 20 minutes.

Happy landings!

[HeliFlight]

Why not go for the BEST OF BOTH WORLDS?!
-- TILTROTORS --
I have been told pay will be significantly more than us Rotorheads, although certainly less than the heavy iron.

Problem is you'll need at least equeal, and maybe more experience on the rotary side rather than fixed plank. Hovering and autorotations are no doubt the most difficult part of flying it (and the most fun), so you'll need lot's of previous experience before they let you hop into one. Maybe work on that for a while, because the first civil AB 609s won't be here till early 2003.

Definitely something to look forward to!!

[Seaking]

Helis for sure.
I'm dual rated but nothing beats flying a helicopter.I would love to drive a large jet for while but the boredom factor would kill me according to my fixed wing friends and it appears to be difficult to break into that world anyway.

If you want to make money,go overseas,its possible to make 3000stg or more pm on contracts,most jobs are rotational so you can freelance on your free time.

As for tiltrotor you will need to be dualrated,with an instrument rating in one type(A or H).If you have a multieng (A) it will be an advantage but it is not necessary.However helicopter rated pilot will have the advantage due to the inherent problems which can occour with a helicopter such as settling with power.This has been brought home to the US Marine Corps due to the recent loss of a V-22 due to vortex ring state.You can find an excellent thread about this in the archives going back about 3 months.

[clear to land]

Thanks for your input. It seems that the vote for fun is unanimous. I am currently flying plank on airmed, which is rewarding, but I do miss the helos. The tiltrotor sounds like the ultimate way to go, but I'm not sure if I should chase more helo time first (1000 hrs turbine s/e at present), as I have 4000+ plank. By the way I'm 32.
Cheers chaps.

[jayteeto]

3300 hrs (H), 200 (A). Definitely plank!!

[deepbuffet]

1700 plank/multi. ATPL. 2100 on the thrashing palm tree. All in the RAF. Did the welded wings first. Boring even whilst dropping bombs. My wife could do it (probably). Rotary? fun, challenging, and I have 400 hrs below 200 ft on Night Vision goggles. Suck on that mr 4000hrs and I'm 32. (I'm 32).

[arm the floats]

Don't worry cleared to land,Deep Buffet is still under line training and with an attitude such as his he won't get anywhere in the civilian world.I'd love to see his sh*t scared face if he had to sit in an R22 for the first time with a low time student who tries to kill you once every 15 seconds

[mrfish]

http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/aircraft2/hh1h.gif

Humbled in your presence.
After 4000 hours (3300 helo...oh yes and 300+NVG!) I am off to a FJ QFI job.
Already I am hunting for some part-time rotary work.
Never forget your roots...to fly is indeed heavenly, but to hover is devine!
All the best.

[deepbuffet]

Arm the floats.

R22's!!! Please, I do have some self respect! I haven't flown an aircraft without a full IFR suite and twin turbines for the last 11 years, and I'm not going to start now that I'm putting my feet up in the civvy world. And as for the suggestion that I would do something as demeaning as instructing no-hopers who couldn't pass military selection....HELLO!!!!
FYI, It's corporate 76's as dep chief pilot.

[arm the floats]

Deepbuffet
So you openly admit that your flying experience is limited!!

[clear to land]

Dear Mr DeepBuffet, you do not have a monopoly on NVG time below 200 (I'm ex military as well), however with your attitude I'm surprised that anyone would enjoy working with you. You should respect every professional trying to make a living, so what if they are flying pistons. Quite frankly, you need to pull your head out.
My posting was not to big note myself, but to seek information from other professional aviators (this is obviously not you!)

[4Rvibes]

Well said CTL, deepbuffet is so obviously a factory standard ex-crab with delusions of adequacy. I have met guys of his undoubted brilliant ability throughout my career and rather enjoyed seeing them sweat coldly the first time they are put in a position where flying the damn machine really matters. ie. Night, grotty Wx, and fully coupled "IFR suite" going horribly U/S. It doesn't matter if you have a snazzy job title (Deputy Chief Pilot in a company with only two pilots) if you can't get it home safely you will walk the walk.

[tipspeed]

DB must be taking the rise surely? No self respecting amoeba would speak like that!

[Chip Lite]

Kaarrff, or whatever, well spoken. Deep (bag carrier) Buffet. You're either a wind-up merchant or a complete knob or both!!

If you think you can get bored doing a 5 sector Amsterdam out of LHR, in an an aircraft doing 340 knots, then you are certainly ace of the base and get all my respect and admiration, if not then you are heading for a snotty heap one day through your shear arrogance. I have both Atpl/H&A IR with more than ten x more low level experience than what has been bandied here, I don't get bored!

[deepbuffet]

Tipspeed. Alleluija!!! These straps in my fightin' chair are starting to chaff a bit. Look at some of the replies, and ask yourself who has the chip. I am enjoying civvy flying, but don't let's pretend it is an any way as demending as military flying, because it just ain't so. In many ways it is better, but I have been disappointed to discover the bitterness that seems to pervade the civvy world, when it comes to dealing with ex-military personnel. I put my comments here to make a point, or rather to help dispel one. Look at the answers. I will do what I can to enable a change in attitude, and we'll see what happens. ( We have 9 S-76's and I'm based on the U.S. Pacific coast (American parents)). Some ex crabs may figure that one out.

'Lookout and fly accurately sir?'

[arm the floats]

DB

Civilian or military, it makes no odds to me its your personality that bugs.
You can try and justify your comments by saying it was all a wind up but there's an underlying arrogance in your comments.
At least have the courtesy to bum about yourself on another thread and not waste everyones time here.

Plank or rotary, many pilots leave the North Sea life to go fixed wing,and I must say I haven't heard of anyone coming back into the helicopter world.
My guess is that the monthly injection of serious £££ relieves any boredom that may set in!!

[Check 6]

I am also dual rated, and spent 20+ years in law enforcement flying both. For the past ten years (since retiring from public service), I have also flown both, but have settled into flying Learjets based in S. Europe. I miss the helos, but certainly do not consider the f/w flying I am doing boring. Each flight is a new adventure, with varying destinations all over Europe and the Middle East. Flying corporate jets in the U.S. is also a lot of fun. It is apples and oranges. As far as $$, for the most part, yes, there is more money flying f/w than in helos. There are exceptions, as some corporate helo positions pay quite well, and there are corporate positions where you may fly both. See my posting regarding Evergreen Alaska, for an example of where being dual rated can pay dividends.

Cheers, Check 6

------------------
Kick the tires, light the fires, first off is lead, brief on guard.

[This message has been edited by Check 6 (edited 15 October 2000).]

[bladeslap]

Clear to land

Silly question...........but what do you WANT to do?

------------------
Proper Prior Planning Prevents P*** Poor Performance........Do it right, seek advice!

[PercyDragon]

Having around 7500 hours, 75% of it rotary, in a spread of civi and military flying, I made the move to get out of flying totally around ten years ago. I finally came to the conclusion that long term rotary flying 'does your head in'.

Having safely established myself in a new career, though, I do miss flying, from time to time. I therefore make a point of flying planks with a nearby club for a few hours every month. Interestingly, though, I have absolutely no desire to fly rotary again.

I think that, for a good long term money earning job leading up to retirement, fixed wing has a lot going for it.

[heli lonestar]

My opinion...

Who cares what machine you got it's what you do with it that counts.

Do it well - either way!

[Heli vision]

Rotorheads, I must admit to being somewhat red-faced about asking this as most of us have probably become a touch hard nosed and cynical in our old age (myself included). Boyish enthusiasm does seem a trifle uncool.

Anyway, here goes. 8000 hour airline training Captain, late thirties, wants to swim against the tide and go heli flying for a living. (Ducks for cover and looks on as hard-bitten rotary drivers clutch stomachs and roll around carpet to sound of much laughter).

Why? Life's too short not to have new challenges and I just love these machines. I've only 50 hours experience in a Bell-47, but it has to be the most fulfilling and fun flying I've ever done.

So, my question then, if I arm myself with a shiny new CPL(H), does my 8000 hours fixed wing and training experience count for anything with potential employers? I guess I'm specifically thinking B-206 or similar type, charters etc.

I hope I haven't opened a can of worms with regard to taking peoples' jobs, etc, as I realise things are not easy in the rotary world at present. Have they ever been? I'd just like to think that one little fishy swimming in the opposite direction to all the others wouldn't create too many waves.

In a nutshell then, armed with a CPL(H) and extensive overall flying experience, what chance of say part-time charter work as an example?

Feeling like a really embarrassed wanabee now, but I would seriously value any comments, suggestions or advice. :)

[Arm out the window]

I can't give you the industry drum, but I've changed spots leopard style in the flying game several times, and am now doing it again.

Your past experience must count for something - CRM, general situational awareness, and probably philosophy towards flying - ie, having a good idea how far to push a situation and being willing to make an abort decision, would have to give you an accelerated rise to competence.

In analogous situations, I have found it to be something of an emotional rollercoaster - you know you can fly and operate, but you lose (for a time) the automatic hands and feet, and knowing where to look, skills that you had on your previous type, so your confidence can take a knock.

Funny as it sounds, as a first-time learner, you don't know what you don't know, so it's probably easier in that way than if you're transitioning from another form of flying.

If you're fairly well sorted out financially, I think it can only be a good thing to follow your hankering - as they say on the Lotto, if you don't have a go, you'll never know!

[Heli vision]

Thanks, Arm out the Window, I appreciate your reply. Interesting point you raise about the temporary difficulties of transitioning to a new type of flying.

Thanks for the encouragement.

Anyone got a UK perspective on my initial post? :)

[Out of Balance]

Think they are all too busy studying for their ATPL(A) exams!

But if you are serious about changing to rotary, then your previous flying experience will obviously be a big advantage. You will find the training easier and I believe that it is a good time to swim against the tide as far as employment prospects are concerned. If you are aware of the inferior financial rewards after your investment and are still keen - go for it.

[Bobby Johnson]

Hi Heli Vision - I know what you are feeling used to fly helis (4000 hrs) then went fixed wing flew for the airlines (Dan Air then BA) all on the 737 now fly a Private BBJ. The lure of helicopters is always there, to such an extent I am in the process of buying a Bell 47wreck and restoring it. If you have any questions send me an email Ill give you some grass roots suggestions!

[vorticey]

night rating: 10 hours total, but if u'v got one, five in heli.
instriment would be similar sort of thing.
only need 40 or 50 hours for comercial(H) from cpl(A)
would benifit heaps i'd recon! ;)

[Heli vision]

Thanks for your interest guys.

Out of Balance - they're probably all studying for their ATPL(A) - nice one.

Bobby Johnson - glad I'm not the only one - good luck with the Bell.

Another question then. Am I right in thinking that many companies have a minimum hours requirement which would be well beyond the number I'd have with my entry level CPL(H), due to insurance requirements? Or, would my fixed wing time count for this insurance requirement?

The bottom line is, could I realistically expect employment (say in the charter field) equiped only with the minimum rotary hours I'd need to convert to a CPL(H), from my ATPL(A)?

My wife's understanding, but there is a limit!
:eek:

[ 30 August 2001: Message edited by: Heli vision ]

[ 30 August 2001: Message edited by: Heli vision ]

[TeeS]

I have an obscure vision of you being a bit of a Salmon! That's not intended as an insult, just a suggestion that most of the fish are fighting like mad to get upstream!

I've been flying helo's for fifteen years in a variety of roles and can honestly say I would not swap a day of it (Well perhaps a couple of IR renewals!). However last year decided to try for fixed wing and am now looking for the right job opportunity.

Even if it does not work out I will be happy in the rotary world but will not be sitting here in ten years time wishing I had had the bottle to try.

So my advice, for what it is worth, is, if you fancy it, go for it!

There are a fair variety of jobs out there at the moment, and with your background I would have thought you would be snapped up.

[Droopy]

It may be worth a few enquiries direct to potential employers to test the water; they should give you a reasonably honest assessment of your potential.

Be warned though, if you give up the day job entirely and rely for your livelihood on the charter level of the rotary world you will face a great deal more ****ing about than in the airline world; I don't need to warn you about the income expectations. It can, however, be genuinely interesting and varied stuff. Feel free to email me if you want to talk in depth.

[Devil 49]

If you're really interested, get it from the horse's mouth-IF you want to fly air taxi ask an air taxi operator. EMS, offshore, whatever.
Most of the chief pilots I know are right guys and straight up- especially stellar individual @rmhllc.com (Rocky Mountain Helicopters, USA EMS operator), although the pay there is subpar.

[Devil 49]

Addendum- we're (I'm with a large EMS operator) currently beating the bushes for a line pilot. HQ forwards us a stack (8) of resumes and leads from inquiries after positions-including a pilot who was upfront that he'd lost his medical...???

NO, NO, NO! There's no shortage of pilots!

Next, I guess we'll be making appointments for the recently deceased to interview for this position-they're not pushy about pay and stuff.

[Vsf]

I used to drive Bell 206's. Great aircraft, but, at least for Americans, the helicopter job market seldom pays much. That's why I finally made the jump into fixed wing.

IMHO, airplane flying does not really translate into copter skills (instruments notwithstanding), so some (maybe all) employers only look at rotary time.

You might want to ease into rotary if you're really determined to do it; I've known of airline pilots getting part time copter jobs. Personally, I like the rotary realm better in terms of the people and the flying, but it's not a financially viable way to earn a living.

[B Sousa]

Im shaking my bottle of Bombay Saphire after reading this thread............Am I OK?? Is it a person who wears a suit, sits in a nice aircraft and eats real food, gets a big paycheck and now wants to work as a Helo driver??
Somebody take him to a shrink......
If that does not work, best thing he can do to prepare is sell all his worldly possessions, buy a mobile home in Lowsyana, get a really used peek up truck, a coon dog and a barefoot Bimbo. Try that for a week on no money. If that works or you come home to Bubba doin the Bimbo and you like it, then your in business.
The rest of the guys will tell you the serious stuff, like hour requirements etc.

A Post Script to this is, never, never ask a Helicopter Driver for Serious Advice.

[ 31 August 2001: Message edited by: B Sousa ]

[Heli vision]

Guys, many thanks for the info, it's much appreciated - please keep it coming.

B Sousa, I'm still laughing, although the bloke sitting behind me here taking notes doesn't seem that amused. Can't say it's as hot as the deep south here, but my feet sure do smell swampy, I've got baby sick all over my shoulder, and the cat's just thrown up on my keyboard. The twelve year old Nissan needs a service, and I'm sure the plumber doesn't need my missus to show him where the u-bend is again......Now where's that varmit of a dog...Rebel, ya'all come here, y'here...where's my gun...we're gonna git ourselves some no good, puke happy cat, y'here....

.....cue the duelling banjoes... ;)

Please keep the advice coming! :)

[ 31 August 2001: Message edited by: Heli vision ]

[ 31 August 2001: Message edited by: Heli vision ]

[ 31 August 2001: Message edited by: Heli vision ]

[ 31 August 2001: Message edited by: Heli vision ]

[B Sousa]

Duelng banjoes is a helicopter with a two pilot requirement. You can tell the Pilots as their eyes are real close together and they usually have webbing in a few toes or fingers. Comes from the family tree with few branches. Like, "Ifin ya get deevorced will your ex-wife still be yer sister."
"You will know your a Helicopter Pilot when you admonish your 12 year old daughter for smokin at the dinner table ........in front of her kid."
8000 hours of jet time you should be able to get a good Fixed Wing job, you certainly wont get a minimal paying helicopter job with less than 1500 hours Helicopter and most of that will have to be turbine. Folks may tell you that your fixed wing stuff will help, but ask those people for a job.
I only joke about this because its a tough world out there, and fixed wingers for the most part make more money than helo drivers.
Good Luck and if you want to get rich, bring all your money here to Vegas. Put it on 17 Black at the Roulette table. You will have one good time for about three minutes......

[B.Loser]

Mr. Vision,

Vsf's post was pretty much on the mark regarding employment here in the U.S. Quite frankly, I actively encourage the (newer) pilots working under me to go the other direction. I have no idea what the situation is like outside of the godd ol' US of A so the following may or may not be accurate in your part of the world but, in the majority of cases, the pay is indeed subpar, benefits subpar to non-existant, and retirement is almost nowhere to be found save a few 401Ks that are floating around which, if you manage to stay with the company long enough, may buy you a cup of coffee and a doughnut on your 65th birthday.

Any advice coming from this office would be: If you are sincere in your pursuit of helicopters focus on the corporate sector where you can put your skills to use in both fixed-wing and helicopters. The pay, benefits and retirement programs are usually a lot better, the equipment is usually better and the chances of putting your previous experience to use are much better.

I know a lot of helicopter pilots approaching the age of 50 (myself included) who are looking to bail in order to get some kind of retirement.

I'm just hoping to get out with enough to buy one of those three wheeled bicycles to ride back and forth to my retirement job as a greeter at the local Wal-Mart.

Good luck with whatever decision you choose to make!

Sign me:

Beautiful Loser

[Vfrpilotpb]

I think you must have a dream,I had too and after some hard work I had my PPL(H) every time I fly a Heli it gives me the same feeling as when I first went solo, I did'nt give up , so I say to you if indeed you have that dream, grab it and keep hold, some of the chaps who have answered are very positive in saying ther aint much money in it, well maybe your not after the money, why not get your ticket and set up your own little charter service, with a good B206, but keep your day job, just in case they all are dead right!
Keep us all informed of how you go on, it would be nice to see a dream realised by someone who dont have to prove anything, Good Luck.
My Regards

[Vsf]

Hey, B.Loser:

Gimmee one of those Wal-Mart applications, please. I dunno if this fixed wing career is going to work out (yet, but I'm doing my best...), and the guys at the blood bank won't buy any more pints from me. Hard to trade in my great photo album (rotary wing adventures) for a mortgage or orthodontics for the dependents.

If I was a rich, or even well to do, airline pilot, I'd buy me a Bell 47 to tinker with on weekends. It would scratch the rotary urge and the $65K or so it cost would be chump change compared to the forsaken earnings stream of a f/w to r/w shift.

And, when it's yer own toy, they don't tell you to fly that single engine bird at night...over mountains...in marginal weather...

[Special 25]

I know many operators don't have a 'minimum insurance requirement' for hours, they just have to deem you suitable to fly their aircraft safely. I know pilots who have trained up through their Bell 47's or Robinsons and have gotten a job flying Jetrangers in the UK with 200 helicopter hours, and about 20 or so Turbine.

If you can get your CPL(H), Turbine conversion and just build a few more hours, I think, with the responsible head you must have, you will find yourself employment. - Good luck !

[EESDL]

Being a jet pilot, you must have mirrored sunglasses......but to be a rotary pilot - you must have the mirrors on the inside! If you're going to cross that Dixie line, you would do well to wave goodbye to your past lifestyle (that's presuming that you have not got huge savings and able to hold down a part-time fixed-wing job aswell).
Rotary flying is extremely rewarding, unfortunately, the employers know this and pay peanuts (relatively).
Oh!, and last bit of advice...don't make any cheques out to "PPSC"

[Heli vision]

Many thanks everyone for informative and often funny advice - some of you guys have given me an informative insight into the psyche of the pro helicopter pilot - naming no names B Sousa!

Special 25, thanks for the specific answer to my question about the insurance issue. The bottom line is the fear of spending many beer vouchers on the conversion to find there's no hope of a job with that level of rotary experience.

Once again, many thanks to everyone for taking the time to reply.

:)

[alouette]

To Heli vision.

I admire such an intention to switch from the airlines to a job in the helicopter industry. Although I would suggest you take on a free-lance helicopter job. Since the helo industry oscillates in the payment quite tremendously.

Other than, I am an almost 3000hr pilot on rotorcraft, but would not give it up for a job in the airline industry. It´s like this. Whatever makes you happy in life you gotta go for if there is a niche or window opportunity for you. :) good luck

[Elvis21]

Has anyone made the switch from rotor to fixed wing (and ultimately jet) or know how easy/difficult it is?

All help gratefully received.:D

[Heliport]

The change isn't as unusual as you might think.
You may get more response if you make your question more specific.

[BlenderPilot]

In 1999 I decided I would switch to fixed wing since I got a great opportunity to go fly for a fractional ownership program in Beechjets as SIC, so April 10 1999 I arrived at the FlighSafety/Raytheon training facility in Wichta, Kansas, when I arrived I had about 250 hrs TT in airplanes, all in nothing bigger than a Piper Seminole, I had also not flown an airplane in about 5 years at all.

Guess what? 10 days later I had my FSI diploma, and about a month later I had about 60 jet hours and felt as comfortable as if I had been doing all my life! The hardest part was learning to program those stupid FMS's, and keeping the plane clean! If you have considerable helicopter time, "flying" the jet will be really easy, you will have excellent "feel", be really smooth at the controls, make excellent landings.

The hardest things for me were:

1. Learning that you have to plan early, Beechjets do 100 NM in about 15 minutes, so things happen faster than you are accustomed to.

2. Controlling airspeed, those light jets could glide forever at 350 Kts, losing extra speed when you are in a descent is practically impossible sometimes.

3. Convincing other pilots it is possible to fly the airplane w/out autopilot, its boring though.

4. Getting used to boredom, I was used to start working after the takeoff in helis, in the plane its the other way around, Me and another pilot actually fell asleep flying from Seattle to Tucson one day at around 3 oclock in the morning, the overspeed horn woke us up!

PS: A year later I decide it was not for me and came back to helicopters, went to Africa to work for EHI

[attackattackattack]

Don't try approaching to a hover at the threshold :)

[bosher]

Ive got a UK ATPL (H) with an IR and around 6000 hours.

Last year I decided to go fixedwing and completed a CPL (A) and IR course.

The problem was that when I did my writtens (7years ago) I only did them to CPL Level, being all that was required in those days for us helicopter boys.

The CAA inform me that to upgrade my CPL (A) IR to a usefull ATPL, I need to do ALL 14 BLOODY JAR EXAMS. (not just extra nav subjects)

I would not mind, but this is the same as a man off the street who has never flown anything!!!

IS this fair, cos I cant believe that it would make me a better pilot.

Has anybody got any dispensations yet??

[Agaricus bisporus]

Elvis, we have no chance to advise you if we do nit know your nationality.

Further, what exactly do you want to know?

eg; How difficult are FW exams, how is the CAA bureaucracy, is it conceptual difficulty you are speaking of?

Ask us specific questions and you might get some specific answers.

[Paul McKeksdown]

I seem to remember that while doing the work for the Military Helicopter Bridging courses the CAA mumbled something about a civilian ATPL(H) to ATPL(A) bridging course that would become available.. Of course the wheels of the CAA move in ever decreasing circles and nothing has yet come about! But we live in hope.

I also seem to remember the hover capabilities of the Piper Warrior were never quite as good as the S61. But never the less I tried!:D

[Say again s l o w l y]

I'm going the other way at the moment. For the JAR CPL(H) the only ground school I've got to do at the moment is the principles of flight. The flying consists of 135hrs TT to get the CPL. Dispensation of 50 Hrs. There are currently NO bridging exams, but they may be around next year.

This is all dealing with the U.K CAA who have been worse than useless. When asked for a simple answer to a simple question. e.g "As a fixed wing instructor do I get a dispensation on the no. of hours required to get an FI rating on a heli?" So far I've had 5 different answers. They can't even agree on the wording of FCL 2.
Good luck with them and let us all know what they have said.

[DownwindToRoll]

Well I always wanted to fly for a living, missed my chance of joining the military unfortunately but now have the possibility of funding myself through personal flight training thanks to many years of hard work behind a desk. :(

I always wanted to fly helicopters, just seems like a bit more fun, but from reading the various forums and advice from all the people on these forums over the last few months it looks like my money would be better invested in fixed wing. :confused:

It seems all rotary jobs are contract only from what I can gather (other than instructor, police, rescue etc and they are few and far between) and you have to be willing to travel far and wide to get them (im based in the UK presently).

So my question is, rotary at double the cost or fixed wing?

Any advice appreciated (sorry for the double post but this comes under wannabe but I wanted input from the rotar head community too) - Soz

[Vfrpilotpb]

Go for the Heli, it is more versatile and can land almost anywhere, I am but a lowly civvie and pleasure flyer, the younger and wiser jockeys who hover about in this forum will no doubt give you all the low down on spending a shedfull of cash to be queing up to find a job! Plus Heli pilots are special!!

:ok:

[Up & Away]

With job prospects so poor at present stick to just flying for fun..... and keep the day job. Its obviously pays enough!!

Now if you just want to get rid of the cash and have fun locally then there's no better choice than spending it on Helicopters!!

[WLM]

:O Downwind to roll
You did not mention your age. Anyway, stick to private flying. It is far more enjoyable, and will save you a lot of stressfull years to come looking for a job, and a lot more cash in the bank.
There are not many wealthly helo pilots on the commercial scene.
:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[DownwindToRoll]

Ok so Im seeing a pattern in these posts...let me see...yes...I see it now...you guys want the jobs for yourselves :O

Seriously though there must be some people out there making a living on rotary? Looks like I will have to fly planks then :zzz:

My age 34

[buttline]

DWTR,

Check your PMs.

[Notar fan]

DWTR,
Luckily I was only 22 (or there abouts) when I was in your quandry. I knew aviation was what I wanted, and it was going to cost me, so I buried my head in a far east country for four years to save all the tax free money I could.
When I was done, I had the decision to make, Cessna or Robbie. Funny thing was, in my youth I never looked up when a Cessna flew by. Being from an agricultural background, a machine had to have a purpose, it had to lift drag, bale, plough.......I digress!!,

I snuck into the US of A and spent my money on the best 10 months of my life. Many of those who thought me, and learned with me are long gone from this industry. I stayed with it, and embedded myself fairly deeply in it knowing the same energy expended in the "planks" would see me retired a lot younger.
I will never be as accomphlised as most of those posting on this board, but I will never supp on a pint a Guinness at Slane Castle looking at the 109s coming in and wonder....what if.
In short DWTR, the fact that you posted here, means you already know what you want to do.

[RDRickster]

There is nothing more fun than flying a helicopter! I'm about your age, and started flying last year... best decision of my life. I tried fixed-wing, but it was very boring and you really can't see as much from the cockpit of a Cessna. Sitting in the bubble of a helicopter if very liberating. In my opinion...

If it is for recreation (& some business) - helicopter.
If it is for travel (point A to B) - fixed wing.

Try both and see what you like best. Helicopters are definately more expensive, but you will discover why they are worth it.

[helipilotnz]

i have got a cpl(h) and ppl(a). i have done the plank thing to reduce the cost of a instrument rating and it is quicker and cheaper to travel. i would rather spend one day a week in a helicopter than a week in a plank. i say do the one you feel is best. some poor souls enjoy flying planks!
helipilotnz

[Whirlybird]

I think you have to go into this with your eyes open, and think about what is really important to you. The helicopter industry, at least in this country, is probably as unreliable as people are telling you. But from what I gather, f/w isn't much better...the fallout from 9/11 is still affecting the industry more than anyone would like. Will things change? My crystal ball is as unreliable as anyone else's.

Flying for fun, especially if you have a well paid job, is probably the sensible option. But you say you always wanted to fly for a living. OK, do you want to risk ending up broke and with no sensible means of support? On the other hand, do you want to risk being old, reasonably well-off, but looking back and saying what someone once said were the two saddest words in the English language: "If only..." When I was considering a CPL(H) an old guy in his 70s who'd been around (everything I mention, he's done) told me to go for it: "You never regret the things in life you HAVE done, only those you haven't".

You may have another option. Start flying, don't borrow any money, make sure you can get back into whatever job/career you have, or keep doing it parttime, getting qualifications slowly. That way, you may not be burning all your boats. You may also be able to do something in aviation, f/w or rotary, part time, perhaps combining the best of both worlds...OK, I'm biased on that one. ;)

There are a lot of possibilities if you keep your eyes open. But...er...getting rich probably isn't one of them! :)

[DownwindToRoll]

Cheers guys (n gals...?)

I do have question for all the career aviators who have generously responded to my request, are you presently employed, despite the 9/11 aftermath have you ever been out of work for long periods of time? Do you find yourself having to travel all over the world to get contract work in deserts and offshore facilities?

Basically if you are not law enforcement, ems, mil or fi what are you doing in a helicopter to pay the bills and feed the kids ?:=

[WLM]

Downwind to roll
Whirly Bird already answered your questions. The helo industry is one of the toughest side of Aviation to be in. Be prepared to be poor for a long time, and experience some testing time in your life, including relationships. Yes some of us did succeed, and do enjoy it now, but it comes at a price.
It is a lot easier and enjoyable to fly privately, when and how you feel like it. You gave me the impression to have a very good non flying job, so stick to it. It will save you a lot of trouble in the long run.
Yes I am employed, albeit took 5 years and almost spent the equivalent of 80,000 UK pounds to get there, and a lot of moving around. :(

[Up & Away]

Let's not start knocking planks plse!!

D/W to R

I was a Contract Airline Captain and its great travelling in comfort and be so well looked after.
I always felt I 'operated' a plank whilst I 'Flew' a helicopter.
Money was good too but Sep !! ended that for alot of us!!

I never gave up helicopter flying whilst flying planks. I just couldn't. I always kept a foot in each camp and wish I could still do both but I'd rather have lost the planks than loose flying Helicopters. I'm very lucky to be helicopter instructor too so I'm still flying now.

[Whirlybird]

The day I got my PPL(H) I realised that I couldn't afford to fly helicopters very often for ever. But I probably could for a couple of years or so. I thought that I could either fly them and have fun but nothing to show for it, or fly them AND do all the exams and courses and so on, and maybe, just maybe, get paid to fly at the end of it. So I decided to try for a CPL(H) and FI rating.

It wasn't quite that straightforward. The hourbuilding was lots of fun. The CPL(H) ground exams were hell. The CPL flying was fine. The FI course was hell - but taught me more about flying than I'd ever learned before, and I'll always be glad I did it. Work? Well, a little, and it's early days as yet. But it's lucky I don't have to live off it!! OTOH, I refuse to relocate, emigrate, or any of the things that might well get me a flying job if I was desperate. For me, I think I made the right decision. But that's me, not anyone else.

I too always kept a foot in either camp, and occasionally fly f/w to go to fly-ins or on holiday or just bore holes in the sky cheaply. It's fun, and affordable, but I'll always prefer helicopters. Personally I think being an airline pilot would be boring. But everyone's different.

So like I said, you do have choices, but go into it with your eyes open..and there are no guarantees, good or bad.

[Capt Hollywood]

DW to R,

I started flying when I was 25 for one simple reason. I realised one day that if I didn't do it soon I may never have the opportunity in the future and as Whirlybird said already, I didn't want to look back and say "What if?".

Many of my mates were buying cars for about the same amount of money that I spent on my licence. It is a lot of money, but it's only money. I was 'lucky' enough to score a job straight out of my licence with 120 hours, flying B206's and H500's. That was five years ago. If it all turns to custard tomorrow I'll move on to another company or I'll do something else.

As has been said several times already I wouldn't be thinking too much about the money you will earn at this stage, do it because you want to and I'm sure you know what you really want to fly!

Cheers,

Hollywood. :cool:

[Lowlevldevl]

DW2R
Keep your day job!
Buy yourself a Pitts if escape from boredom is your motivation.
Helicopters start where the roads end.
By the time you have 50 hrs the initial thrill is history, (bit like a new girl friend);)

[aquila105]

It looks like you are looking to create a job that you'll enjoy and that will produce enough cash to at least maintain your current lifestyle.
If I am correct, you can answer the question yourself, granted I've never flown in UK and my point of view is limited to the USA.

Option 1: Spend a LOT of money in training, work years as a flight instructor on $ 800/ 1200 a month, then if you are lucky get a turbine helo flying job, where very likely you'll sweat profusely during summer time (most of the helos do NOT have A/C), work in remote areas, skip meals,sleep in trailers with men, spend long period of times without seeing your family, be considered an aviation blue collar and get a salary that is at the bottom of the Aviation Cash Bucket.

Option2: Spend considerably LESS money for training, possibly get in with the airlines (ab initio) or do the instructor thing and then fly corporate, eather way:
Fly state air conditioned state of the art equipment, in and out of big cities or exotic places, be served food and coffee even while you are flying from a beautiful girl, sleep in first class hotels with the flight attendants, usually on the job for 3/4 days, then home for the equal amount, be considered a true aviation professional, get a salary that no helicopter pilot would ever dream of.

Hope this helps!

[DownwindToRoll]

aquila105 - That kind of puts it into perspective quite nicely, thanks everyone for all your comments...:ok:

So from all the comments (and private messages) I have received on this sibject I can summise that essentially ;

"helos are much more fun but dont pay $hit"

CONS:
> It costs more for training
> The jobs are fewer
> The end salary is lower
> Most work is contract rather than building a career with a good company
> You have to travel a lot to fly helo contracts

PROS:
> They are more versatile and fun to fly, you fly it rather then operate it
> The work is likely to be more varied given the differing tasks that a helo can perform
> You travel a lot flying helo contracts

Did I miss anything or is that about the size of it ?

Thanks again :O

DTR

[RDRickster]

Since I'm a middle-aged white collar worker with a family and mortgage, I've kept things in a similar perspective as the folks above. I didn't get into aviation on the ground floor or at an early age, but I've definately been bitten by the rotor bug. For me, my aspirations are limited to becoming a part-time instructor. I love to teach, and I love to fly.

Take your current income + savings, subtract the investment required to become a professional pilot, subtract the average salary that you might receive as an instructor when starting. Calculate this for 2-3 years. Then, figure a gradual increase in salary and benefits as you get into the professional helicopter pilot workplace (over time). Oh, don't forget to factor in a fall-back plan in case you experience a serious illness or eye injury that might end your flying career.

Now, you can't completely base a life decision on the numbers alone - but you might be able to balance the two options. Chances are good that the reflected change in your standard of living using this crude Cost Benefit Analysis would decrease (with no guarantee of return on investment). You might be able to fly recreationally, keep your day job, and live in both worlds (as I do). I would give my left testicle to fly professionally, but I don't have the skills and even if I did - I probably couldn't afford to.

I know a pilot that works in Longbeach, NY (near Hamptons) and makes $93,000 a year (flying cop). Having said that, it doesn't come close to the cost of living in that area and salaries that high are very rare indeed.

[pjohnson]

I've earned my living for 25 years now, flying helicopters. My mates are now 747 Qantas captain, having problems balancing on their wallets and I'm in some god forsaken part of the world putting up with yet another "interesting" employer. Personally I think it's a lousy industry and I'd advise anyone whose interested to sets their sights on the airline industry. And with the fat wallet you can fly helos on your days off :-)

Cheers

[Decks]

For what its worth I'll throw in my two pence worth.!!
I think like most things in life you have to begin with the end in mind. The best way to find out what the end is like is exactly this here...asking those employed in the industry and see what they have to say.
I am now employed as a SAR pilot in Ireland with a a large operator and have to say that I absolutely love my job. The flying is great, the money is good enough and an awful lot better than ninety nine percent of my school mates. The schedule is grand too with plenty time off jet lag free. Flying SAR can on occassion be a wee bit hairy but overall I dont think its more risky flying 200hrs on SAR or flying 600 in the North sea... and a lot less boring.!!! Even guys who fly cushy ailrline long haul flights with minimal turnarounds can ruin their career with a simple screwup.

I dont think that an airline career is always fun and games. For every one guy flying 747s long haul as a well paid P1 there are dozens flying huge numbers of sectors on much lower money and generally bored to tears. While the long haul stuff is appealling, many friends have said that the effects of jet lag and time changes really has a negative effect on the way their bodies feel a lot of the time... that it is a serious price.

Anyway thats my view. I know that lots of helo jobs are crap... I have worked quite a few but if you are prepared to give it a go and make the sacrifices to get where you want it certainly can be great. Good luck to you.

[Officedesk]

I am starting my PPLH next week.

I am an ATPL with 9000+ fixed wing. 4000 GA and the rest current airline 737/A320. Not looking to give up the fixed wing career just looking forward to getting a new experience in aviation.

The CAA graciously say that I only have to do about a third of the full course.

Just wondering if anyone out there has done the same thing and what you can tell me to help me on my way.

What am I liklely to struggle with during the training. Hovering? Auto rotations? I haven't a clue yet!

got any tips?

TA

[t'aint natural]

BA 73 driver I know recently went the same road. Solo in seven hours, rattled through the course in no time.
Major differences - your hands are full all the time.
If you push the nose down when the engine fails, you're a dead man. (Or woman.)
You're going to love it.
I know a BA 74 FO who teaches on the R22 at Redhill. Send me a PM and I'll give you his phone number.

[Ascend Charlie]

A "student" came to me to convert his PPLH to CPLH. He already had 20,000 hrs 747, owned his own H500, had a PPLH and 700 chopper hours. But the H500 was in a different country (same place he did his flying) so he had to learn in a Robbie.

He was tragic - couldn't cope with the skittish machine compared to the H500. Eventually we made it to the nav phase, and here he fell completely on his @ss. He could not fly with one hand, read a map, make a decision and make a radio call at the same time. He was so used to telling somebody else to do it and then watching them do it, that his basic skills were gone.

At my suggestion that he remain a private pilot and forget his commercial aspirations, he gave up, sold his H500, and went back to being a casual 747 driver - and soon after landed one wheels-up!!!

Time to retire...:uhoh:

[Robbo Jock]

One thing I think you'll have a problem with is _not_ pulling back just as you're about to touch down in auto or running landings. The old fixed wing hind-brain will automatically kick in to "land on the mains" first. It's an urge you're going to have to fight if you want to keep the tailboom in its rightful relationship with the rest of the aircraft.

Plus, as t'aint and Ascend mentioned above, not having a third or fourth hand available for map folding, note taking, transponder/frequency setting, etc will come as a hell of a shock.

[Officedesk]

I know what you are saying Ascend and I agree that there certainly are some people that seem to have more money than sense in aviation. I also agree that a long career in airline flying and allowing yourself to get into a vegetative state is indeed a trap to be avoided.

However, I do get fed up with people on this site that seem to all too freely anonymously criticise and stereotype others whilst lauding their own skills and judgement. Whilst the gentleman you refer to may indeed not have the ability to upgrade to CPLH, with 20,000 hours of airline time he deserves a bit more respect and dignity than you offer.

Whilst far from being sky gods, with the right exposure and training the vast majority of airline pilots should easily excel in most areas of aviation.

There are many variations of a very true saying in aviation. The one I like is this: 'Be careful who you condemn in your world as one day you might find them condemning you in theirs'.

Many thanks to everybody for the tips though. Gives me some food for thought, keep em coming. Really looking forward to this.

[RW-1]

Besides not having the free hand, and possible flare issues, remember that in the heli you will no longer have adverse yaw when banking, so no tail rotor pedal inputs are placed when entering/exiting the bank. You'll simply move cyclic to enter/exit.

Pedals are used in hover turns only to move the heli through the turn, and in most other situations only for maintaining trim. :)

[Ascend Charlie]

Officedesk said:
"Whilst the gentleman you refer to may indeed not have the ability to upgrade to CPLH, with 20,000 hours of airline time he deserves a bit more respect and dignity than you offer."

I wasn't trying to put sh*t on him. When he first walked into my office and described his situation, I was impressed by him, his achievements, his ambitions, and his Lamborghini parked outside. I looked forward to flying with somebody who had twice my hours.

But as i flew more and more hours with him, the expected admiration turned to dismay and then horror, thinking of how dangerous he must have been in his own machine (thankfully in a different country). Perhaps with the passing years, some of his functions had deteriorated to some extent - and this was confirmed by him landing a 747 wheels-up. Takes some leadership to do that.

[KENNYR]

Going from fixed wing to rotary is like a breath of fresh air. Although the helicopter is inherantly unstable, it is a dream to fly at a speed way below the stalling speed of most fixed wing aircraft. Having the ability to land in any field you want or land at any speed you want is amazing.

If the donkey stops, enter autorotation and touch down where you want at virtually zero speed.

Always remember, to fly is heavenly, to hover is divine!!!!!!

[PPRUNE FAN#1]

Ascend Charlie wrote:...At my suggestion that he remain a private pilot and forget his commercial aspirations, he gave up, sold his H500, and went back to being a casual 747 driver - and soon after landed one wheels-up!!!andPerhaps with the passing years, some of his functions had deteriorated to some extent - and this was confirmed by him landing a 747 wheels-up. Takes some leadership to do that.Not to mention the two other guys in the cockpit being asleep...unless it was one of those single-pilot 74's the airlines keep pestering McBoeing to build. The fact that I hadn't heard about such an event does not mean that it did not happen. But...

Got a link?

[Ascend Charlie]

PPF1 - no link, but it happened after June 92 and before jan 95.

Company - Ansett.
One engine had been shut down, they made a decision to go to Sydney instead of Brisbane, didn't fully run the checklists to realise that the nosewheel wasn't down, and when they broke out of the overcast at 300' the tower called that the nosewheel was up, but they were in the flare by then, and ....... he doesn't work for them any more. In fact, NOBODY works for them any more, they are gone.

[international hog driver]

A-C
Nice, very nice.


I remember those days. The said 747 skipper was indeed a very qualified gentleman he could do this and that and park a big keroburner on a postage stamp, but put him in a VFR hands on helicopter he was a hack.

I have the same experiences now. I am a currently a training captain in the middle of qualifying a new batch of skippers. These guys generally have military backgrounds everything from Hueys to Hinds, F series to Migs and Sukhoi’s up to and including the 27.

They simply can’t fly the aircraft they have been assigned to, their autocratic methodology brings big CRM problems and their handling skills do not match the capabilities of the aircraft.
No matter how much experience you can obtain a Hack will usually remain a Hack until they retire from the organisation be that of their own choice or by that of the laws of physics.

You have never experienced life changing moments until the aircraft disintegrates around you (done that) or while one of these ‘experienced’ people decides to test the four wheel drive capabilities of aircraft during public transport operations (done that too). Some would say off runway, I asked where was the runway.

Ace from space on base with three in place……………
:ok:

ps. here's the link http://www.airliners.net/open.file/021003/M/

[Officedesk]

Ascend, I was just making a point that a valid question asking for helpful constructive responses always seems to end in some mud slinging session on this web-site. That is a shame and I wish people would stop and think before posting.

I would just like to give my informed half penneth worth on your condemnation of him for going off and landing one wheel up.

In a 747 you cannot simply ignore gear unsafe conditions. The approach attitude would be not as expected, it would be near impossible to slow to anywhere near planned safe approach speed (if the non-normal checklist had not been completed). Then you would get GPWS 'too low gear' alert then the landing config warning before touchdown. On top of that and as mentioned above there are is also at least one other trained pilot alongside who will be screaming out if any one these steps is missed.

It is always hard when another non-normal situation occurs, like an engine shut down (though in flight that is not a very serious emergency on a four engine aircraft). The 747 has many failsafes and the situation that you describe with the nosewheel is still likely to be the result of another serious failure that I am sure the crew did everything they could to sort before commencing an approach. I would be very surprised indeed if they quite simply ignored the fact that one of their big green lights was missing and then they still ignored further aural warnings.

Regardless of all that the point I am making is why do people use situations that they cannot know everything about them, to condemn.

I repeat my previous: Whilst he may not have the specific abilities to enter your world I suggest you be careful about criticising his.

Particularly when all I was asking for was a few helpful tips on flying rotarys. I didn't really ask for opinions of whether airline pilots could hack it on helicopters.

That's my last word on it now lets forget it.

[international hog driver]

Officedesk Jockey


Please visit www.atsb.gov.au/aviation/occurs/occurs_detail.cfm?ID=331

Quote:

“The flight crew had the opportunity to recognise and correct the landing gear problem prior to landing. The pilot in command attempted to determine the actual landing gear situation from the flight engineer. Although the flight engineer's panel indicated the nose gear was not down and locked, the flight engineer did not recognise this and subsequent communication and co-ordination between the flight crew failed to detect this error.

During the latter part of the flight, the crew did not adequately manage the operation of the aircraft. The crew's performance reflected a lack of effective crew resource management, the crew's lack of knowledge about some of the company's procedures for B747 operations, the flight engineer's and the co-pilot's lack of experience in the B747 and perceived pressure.”

Put simply, the crew were faced with abnormals, they rushed the approach skipped items on the check list and when faced with bad WX poped out at the bottom and oops………


I fly planks now, all AC and myself want to say is don’t expect too much and you won’t be disappointed. Many people who fly high performance planks have an over inflated view of themselves and when they go from a controlled, multi crew environment to a single pilot, hands on scenario many come unstuck and sometimes with fatal consequences.

Don’t let this happen to you is what we are saying.

As for flying rotary my piece of advice a very capable instructor told me when I did my conversion, KEEP THE PICTURE FLAT.

IHD
:ok: :ouch: ;)

[Maximum]

Many people who fly high performance planks have an over inflated view of themselves

......erm, no way that might be taken as an insulting, grossly biased generalisation then eh?

International Hog Driver, you fly planks now, I guess it might just apply to you then? Ah, but wait, you're talking about all those other people with the over-inflated views of themselves! :yuk:

another quote: "when they go from a controlled, multi crew environment to a single pilot, hands on scenario many come unstuck and sometimes with fatal consequences.

Don’t let this happen to you is what we are saying."

How patronising. I don't know how you guys ever let a 10 hour PPL student go solo. Oh wait, don't tell me, I know, I know, they don't have the transferal of learning problems, so in actual fact they're much more capable than the 10 000 hour plank driver.

The rotary guys I've converted on to jets have just been pilots like any others, some good, some bad. Strangely enough, they don't try to come to the hover before they land.

And the fixed wing guys I know who've gone on to helicopters have had no problems. They've been more than capable of realising there are certain traps and adapting to them, same as the rotary guys going on to fixed wing.

So I just don't see the point of bringing up this example of one unfortunate incident.

Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean their not out to get you. :rolleyes

[Ascend Charlie]

Thanks, Hoggie, nicely put. Enjoy your schnapps!:8

[international hog driver]

Max I'm not going to tear you down, but I do need to clarify a few things.

an insulting, grossly biased generalisation then eh? - No, industry observation.

’guess it might just apply to you then? – Yes, but I don’t have ‘the over-inflated views of themselves’, I quite humbly cancel fights (mine and other crews), where the proposed operation exceeds the capabilities of crew or machine.
Officedesk wanted advice, I gave him an insight, like when you walk into the DFO’s or CP’s office and ask for a clarification. We look up to our peers usually that have attained the position because of their experience and capabilities. Officedesk has not done it, others have.

Don’t let this happen to you, How patronising. – Might be, but I don’t want to see another professional buy the farm, I’ve seen it too much already.

I don’t touch the 10 hour guys, the ones with thousands of hours have trouble enough doing what I do (company mins 1K hours on type) no matter what you have flown before.
We have one FO now with a little over 200 hours and yes she flies better than some of the experienced guys, so in actual fact some are much more capable than the 10 000 hour plank driver, I Agree.

“So I just don't see the point of bringing up this example of one unfortunate incident”. One incident….. quite the opposite there are many examples. Have a look at the number of ‘professionals’ inside and outside our industry who think they have what it takes to fly rotary. Not just 10K hr jet jockeys have an untouchable aura.

Clint Eastwood said it in one of his movies once.
“A good man always knows his limitations”

I know mine, do you know yours?


My intent is not to cut you down, but to open your eyes to the fact that there are many flight operations that your’s and mine experience my not have covered yet. In our own way we may be experienced and qualified professionals but we still may know nothing about how they guys across the apron do things.


Getting back to the topic for Ofiicedesk, besides keeping the picture flat, another thing you need to know in contrast to flying planks is SMALL CONTROL MOVEMENTS.



:E :ouch: :ouch: :ouch: :ok:

[PPRUNE FAN#1]

Ascend Charlie wrote about a 747/H500 pilot he knew:But as i flew more and more hours with him, the expected admiration turned to dismay and then horror, thinking of how dangerous he must have been in his own machine (thankfully in a different country). Perhaps with the passing years, some of his functions had deteriorated to some extent - and this was confirmed by him landing a 747 wheels-up. Takes some leadership to do that.Well, it's not that simple, is it? It never is. I mean, it's not like the 747 captain was flying alone and simply forgot to put his wheels down, as happens at least a couple of times per week here in the U.S. There's more to it than that.

In "most" aeroplanes with retractable gear, the green "Gear Down" lights are arranged in a little triangle which gives the pilot a clear visual indicator that all three legs are extended. In the 747 this is not the case. The only thing the two forward-facing pilots see is one single "Gear Down" light. They refer to the Flight Engineer for "the rest of the story." He's the systems expert. Or, he's supposed to be.

The Captain knew that there were certain conditions in which the gear indicators could conflict with the actual gear position. Thus, he addressed the FO and asked for confirmation that the gear was indeed down.

On the FO's panel, there are five "Gear Down" lights. But they are arranged ambiguously. Four are set together in a horizontal row, and the fifth is separate- above and left of centerline. With that separate light dark, it might not be very obvious that it was supposed to be included with the four just below it. Of course, a sharp FO who was familiar with his a/c and systems would know this, but the accident aircraft was not so equipped.

In fact, all indications are that the FO erroneously turned the #1 Hydraulic system "OFF" when they shut the #1 engine down, although he certainly doesn't admit to that and neither would I. The PIC and the SO did expect that the gear and flaps would operate more slowly. But they did not expect, nor should they have, that those items would take up to ten times longer to operate than normal. So as they commenced the approach, the gear and flaps were still in transit. Then, as they tried to select Flaps25, they got the gear horn.

When the Captain asked if the gear was down, the FO gave a conflicting reply. On one hand, he said "Yep," but then he added, "I've got four green." He did not say, "I've only got four green," which would've or should've raised a red flag. Obviously, he did not understand the significance of what he was seeing.

Now...stop a minute. You're sliding down on final approach in a huge piece of flying machinery. You've had an inflight-emergency, but you've got it handled. So far, so good. You can see the runway ahead of you. The "landing expectation" is high. Then, at sort of the last minute, you get an indication (in this case the gear horn!) that something is amiss. In retrospect, we wonder why the Captain didn't cry out, "Great kookamooka! Balls to the walls, boys, let's get outta here! Go around!!" But he didn't. You know, you can blame "differences in airline policies" all you want (as all three pilots did). But the fact remains that you just don't LAND with the gear horn blowing.

But the whole crew was probably preoccupied with and depressed about the thought of grabbing yet another 747 and completing the trip in a day that would stretch beyond the normal duty-time limits. I know that would p*ss me off.

I was amused by one thing the Captain said about his mindset during the approach (i.e. before the embarassing nose-slide).
When he selected flaps 30, the pilot in command had resolved that further pursuit of the cause of the warning horn was counterproductive, as he needed to monitor the aircraft manipulation by the co-pilot during the imminent landing. The pilot in command had decided that both the resolution of the warning horn problem and the approach were sloppy and that he would conduct an in-depth debrief for the flight-deck crew at an appropriate time after landing.This is funny. It's not a stretch to imagine a pilot in a similar situation thinking the same thing: "I'm really gonna give it to these guys after we land" ...just before slamming into a mountain or something.

There are lessons aplenty we can learn from the Ansett accident. Yes, the Captain was deficient. But a 747 is not a single-pilot aircraft, and he was saddled with a very weak crew (in the case of the FO, borderline incompetent). So it's not exactly the same thing as going out and forgetting to put the wheels down before landing, which is what was implied in AC's initial two posts.

You know, we helicopter pilots are lucky in a perverse sort of way. Those of us who fly in single-pilot ops are SOLELY responsible for our pilot-error accidents. For better or for worse, it's all us. If we slam our BK into the trees, rip the skids off, break our wrist and have to do an extended-hover back at base while Maintenance tries to figure out how we're going to set the beast down, there's really no one else to blame. Even though I've never flown high-performance planks, for a long time I had that "over inflated view" of myself. But you know, the more accident reports I read, the more I know that it can happen to me.

With the proper attitude, any experienced pilot can easily learn to fly anything else. I suppose I could even learn to land the Space Shuttle...with one or two sessions of dual, of course.

[crop duster]

Officedesk, I crossed over about four years ago in a Bell 47. One of the hardest things for me was the throttle: keeping the RPM in the green. I make my living crop dusting so being low to the ground and making corrections constantly weren't new to me. At first I stayed a little behind the helicotpter. What got me was the constant corrections you have to make, or maybe it has become so second nature in my crop duster. But, as all helo drivers know, when one control input is made you have to counter with all of the others.

Steep approaches was another thing that was hard to get used to. I kept over shooting the spot. Eventually it all came together.

There is one thing that struck me as different going from planes to helos. In my crop duster there are days when the turbulence is so bad that my helmet will bounce off the side glass on each side of me. I had always heard that the rotors absorb much of the bouncing around when flying in a copter but hadn't thought much about it until my first day going offshore, in a B206L, the platform called us on FM and told us to go back to the beach because the winds were gusting to 50 knots. At that time my front seat passenger said over the intercom that he was glad because it sure was rough. I thought about it for a minute and asked him if this was a rougher than normal trip. He looked at me as if I was crazy and asked me if I didn't think it was rough. I then told him that if this was as bumpy as it got in my crop duster I'd never complain about turbulence again.

Flying helicopters definitely takes more concentration and forethought. I think that it would be a lot easier to go from a helicopter to an airplane because in a sense you can be lazy in a plane; but, if you take the same attitude in a helo it will get you sooner of later.

It is also a lot more physical in a helicopter. For example, a couple hours spraying in a helicopter is equivalent to 4-6 in my Thrush. You just never get to relax.

I could go on and on but I'm going to a Tim McGraw concert and my wife says I have to get ready.

Barryb
:ok:

[BlenderPilot]

It really depends on what is your FW flying background, over here we have a situation in which 90% of airline pilots went straight from their 180 Piper/Cessna hours into the cockpits of airliners. They have been flying by pushing buttons to go up, down or where ever, the little hand flying they have done has been in a easy to fly, stable acft. and their biggest handicap is that they want a checklist for everything, they need someone to tell them which way to land and where the wind is from, their decision making criteria is very unexercised.

And now they want to climb onto a helicopter, and sure teaching them to learn to manipulate the controls is difficult but not impossible, they eventually learn to solo and land by themselves, but the really hard part comes when you try to make them understand their enviorement, limitations, capabilities and the need for them to make serious operational decisions based on those factors. Their "old fashioned" airmanship skills are really low and they just choose to hover around the airport on nice days, and stay out of any spot that becomes a challenge.

But if your previous FW experience is more like Crop Duster then I am sure it will be an easy task.

[Maximum]

Gee, give us a break guys. Hog Driver, Ascend Charlie, Blender Pilot - I get what you're trying to say, but the way you say it.......:yuk:

Blender, you sayThey have been flying by pushing buttons to go up, down or where ever, the little hand flying they have done has been in a easy to fly, stable acft
well I'm sorry, but this is just such a broad generalisation. Have you flown a high performance transport jet? I admit what you say might be true for an inexperienced, low time new first officer.

But come on, don't you think we fly in some goddam awful weather, have system failures, engine failures etc, exercise all sorts of decision making while travelling at 8 miles a minute and manage to keep it all going sector after sector day after day all over the world.

Your gross simplification of airline flying is factually incorrect and insulting. And no, I don't have an over-inflated view of my own abilities. I just don't like my job being portrayed as it would be by laymen in the press who don't know any better. You should.

I can assure you that when you're in charge of a seventy tonne transport jet with two hundred people down the back, line training a new first officer, middle of winter, dark night, snow covered runway reported as slippery, gusty crosswind on limits, fuel rapidly approaching diversion minimums, all your diversion fields rapidly going out and faced with an offset VOR approach down to minimums, your :mad: decision making criteria is extremely exercised, and I can also assure you the aircraft is anything but stable!!:rolleyes:

And what I've described isn't that unusual a situation, it's just one of those nights out on the line.

I agree that fixed wing guys who haven't flown helicopters often have a strange view of them, and don't realise they are unstable and require constant control inputs. I agree that some (not all) helicopter ops require a "bush flying" mindset where you are totally aware of terrain, wind direction etc, and no one's going to warn you of an imminent f*** up.

But that doesn't mean that airline flying is the cliche that Blender describes it as. That's just plain stupid.

[attackattackattack]

Officedesk

Once you've done a bit of time on rotary DON'T get too attached to the process of approaching to the hover. Leads to awfully big splats when you return to plank :O

(I speak from the experience of a friend who did exactly that. Fortunately he wasn't hurt, but he did get some impressive bills.)

[the wizard of auz]

I tried to blow a bull from under a tree just recently after 40 odd hours in a choppa.............. I was in a 172 at the time, they have a far less impressive hover than the R22...... some times 5000hrs in a fixed wing can be forgotten quite quickly.

[BlenderPilot]

Dear Maximum,

I really don't like to say things without knowing what I am talking about, and this is no exception.

I have a substantial amount of High Performance Jet time, old ones and new ones (Old Lears, Sabre and the New Hawker 400's faster, less equipped and with worse handling characteristcs than the Large Transport Acft you talk about)
without all the help and planning airline pilots get, internationally, (ever landed a jet, bad WX at MHTG, MMJA, MGGT, MMTN) into airports you wouldn't dream to put a 737 into, have flown and experienced "awful WX, sistem failures and engine failures (broken gears in acc gear box) at 8 miles a minute", you talk about.

all of this is nothing compared to a day fighting fires, an ILS in a B412 in stormy WX, or Hot and Heavy operations at altitude in confined areas with only 12 people on board, or doing full touchdowns with a 5 millon dollar acft with an inexperienced new offshore SIC.

The reason why there is so many more accidents in helicopters compared to jets is because operations are much more difficult, require more skill, and most of all, a great deal of common sense and airmanship skills. Not much more to help you here except yourself, most heli pilots don't attend all those nice sim rides all the time, nor get all those nice tons of manuals full of stuff that someone else previously has thought in advance so I don't mess up.

No app charts into remote fields in South America, no TWR to tell you where the wind is from, and when is the last time you have seen a wire or antenna in the approach end of a runway? Most heli pilots don't have a nice fat company SOP's to decide for you when to go to your alternate, we can't go over the bad WX at FL370, most helicopters don't have WX radar, FMS's, and GPWS, we can't try an approach a couple of times and if unable divert to our alternate at "8 miles a minute"

You talk about failures, in helicopters you are lucky if you have a back up system at all, on the contrary Jets have in many instances triple redundancy. Engine failures are just a matter of proper CRM and procedure in most modern passenger ACFT today, for every accident caused by mechanical failure in airplanes there is about 10 in helicopters and trust me a thrust reverser deployment is nothing compared to a TR failure.

Sorry I stand by what I say because I have experienced being on both sides.

[beetlenut]

Back on track.

Fw to Rw conversions I've noticed.


Tendancy to try to fly the approach fast and use fwd cyclic (nose down pitch) to aid the descent.


Pedals during turns.


Trying to flare the HELO a la aeroplane onto the ground.


Checklist fixation (ok this is a doubled edged one but, lets be real the R22 is not a complex a/c to start & run up).


Flying to join the extended centreline for the 5Nm finals.


That loverly Fw trick of adding throttle to make the thing start (no, no, no!)

And once again as with the 1st, using fwd cyclic to descend.




uuuummmm? the rest is about normal for ab-initio or otherwise.

Small imputs, getting used to a new attitude picture, co-ordination, different terminology blah- blah - blah.............


You'll love it!!
John.

Ps: hopefully included something to annoy somebody.

[Ascend Charlie]

Blender - nicely said

Then there is the attitude difference:
In a helicopter, generally,
ATTITUDE=AIRSPEED
POWER=RATE OF DESCENT.

That is, for a given attitude, the airspeed will be fairly constant - choose a 60-knot attitude, and with enough time (attitude is instant, performance takes time) you will have 60 knots. Then, depending on where the power is, you will be in a 60-knot climb, or a 60-knot descent, or level at 60 knots.

In a plank, there is an infinite number of attitudes for an airspeed, and it is only the power setting that governs what you got. Point the nose at the ground, and control airspeed with power, speedbrakes, flaps or whatever.:ok:

[Maximum]

Blender.

I wasn't challenging you to a p***ing contest. Honest. Go back and re-read my post. I repeat: "I get what you're trying to say".

I was contesting your implied view that airline flying consists of nothing more than "pushing buttons", requires little in the way of airmanship, hardly anything in the way of handling, and "very unexercised" decision making.

The reason why there is so many more accidents in helicopters compared to jets is because operations are much more difficult, require more skill, and most of all, a great deal of common sense and airmanship skills. Interesting implication in that statement.

trust me a thrust reverser deployment is nothing compared to a TR failure. Tell that to the Lauda Air 767 pax and crew.

Engine failures are just a matter of proper CRM and procedure in most modern passenger ACFT today I must remember that.

Anyway, I'm off to push some buttons.

[Rich Lee]

The issue is not so much fixed wing or rotor, military or civil, male or female, or even Navy or Army--left-handed people make better helicopter pilots than right handed people.

[Ascend Charlie]

Bong! Wrong!
Only met 2 x cacky-handers trying to fly helos, both grossly under-talented and unco.
2 out of 2, but only a small sample.

Anybody else got better statistical representation than that?

But it seems that hellyklopper pilets are the wurst spelers on erth - another thread about wasting police time is a fine example.

So, if you are a dyslexic left-hander, stick with planks.:8

[Maximum]

I reckon ambidextrous drummers with a leaning towards jazz have got a head start on any of us..........:8:p

[Heliport]

We've just passed through 250,000 views of our amazing Rotorheads Around the World picture gallery
- the finest collection of helicopter or helicopter-related photographs on the net.
More than 1,650 photos have been posted to date!

A big thank you to all of you who've posted pictures, and to two of members in Australia who host pictures for us:

John Eacott of The Helicopter Service, Essendon, Victoria

and

Imabell (Graeme Gillies) of Blue Tongue Helicopter Services, Sunshine Coast, Queensland

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

~~ DECEMBER ~ DESKTOP CALENDAR ~ COMPETITION ~~

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Theme: Christmas / Winter

Prize: The winning entry will be used for our Christmas Desktop Calendar.

Closing date: 24th November


HOW TO POST PICTURES: Click HERE (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=145070)

[gilmaris]

Right then, first post on this website after months of confusion. Have spent countless hours doing research for plane training and have finally found a school that fits my needs BUT then the thought of helicopter training poisioned my mind and has left me back at square one with a load more stuff to find out.

Now, this isnt gonna be a 'what school is best' post but more of a 'what are the pro's and con's of each profession?' I realise that some of these are subjective questions of which the answers are neither right or wrong. here goes

Which is the more 'enjoyable' to fly?

It seems to me that Heli flying is more diverse and therefore more interesting than fixed wing flying. - Is this true, or at least a belief shared by many?

I know that finding jobs flying either can be tough but is one field easier to get employment in than the other? (this is assuming one has at least CPL, IR, fATPL in either and possibly some instructor experience. Furthermore, i'm a UK native with no desire to live here at all - which field has better opportunites for working oversees?

Which field provides the greater salaries? (this is, sadly, quite relavant to me as i would have to pay back a large loan).

Hope that these questions dont seem to stupid for all those far wiser than me out there. Would appriciate any comments back which, hopefully, will help me choose what to learn to fly.

Ciao

[Devil 49]

From a pilot's point of view-
Airplanes are easier to learn, but harder to fly- even though there's a lot of time that the airplane flies itself. You've got reconfiguring to do, and less real control when it counts. Crosswinds, for example. Overestimate the aircrafts ability, and by the time you're made aware of your mistake, you're in deep. If you're going someplace civilized, with a runway, go by plane. Autorotations are for thrill seekers.

Helos are harder to learn, and challenging to fly, and go places that can be really difficult. The helo never flies itself. It may diverge from trim slowly, but it will need corection in a few seconds. Autorotations are life insurance.

Airplanes are automobiles and helicopters are motorcycles, or tractors.

[zeeoo]

Hi,
Did you ask about Gyrocopters ?
If airplanes are automobiles and choppers tractors, gyros may be the mountain bikes.
the gyros perform what a chopper does excepted hover, but at a much lower price.
cheers

[Auto Relight]

Hi there,

I fly both helicopters and airplanes, with years in the airplane first.

Either will provide you with all the challenge you can handle, depending on what route you follow. I flew many years in the Arctic in FW where daily work required landing on ever changing sandbars, beaches, unprepared mountain ridges, tundra, and flying in weather far below what is comforatable. This was not only challenging, but satisfying at the end of the day. This type of work requires solid decision making, excellent "hands and feet," and a certain distain for arbatrary rules. Make no mistake, this work is as far from normal FW flying as helicopters are. Regular pavement to pavement IFR type stuff requires an ability to mulit-task, follow rules, and understand complex a/c systems. This also is challenge, but a very different one.

Helicopter flying is much like the "bush work" described above, and will challenge you every day. There is a huge variety of work to be done in heicopters that can often make every day different. There is also the IFR route in rotary, offering the same type of work as in FW - just alot slower!

As for getting work, here in Canada, either is very difficult and the prospect for decent pay is a few years away. If you say "no problem," then flying could be for you. If you want a decent paycheck right away, I might suggest something else.

Good luck, sorry for the ramble, it's early morning here.

AR

[NickLappos]

"Any place that truly NEEDS helicopters is not worth visiting."

[Aesir]

"Any place that truly NEEDS helicopters is not worth visiting."

Aww.. come on Nick:)

Maybe some truth to this, however depends on the individual.
I work in Greenland, a truly awesome land which most surely would not survive without helicopter transport.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v144/Heliport/AirAlpha2.jpg

http://www.scanair.no/images/OY-HIA-airalphaGL.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v146/FlyingLawyer/Bell222iceberg.jpg

http://iserit.greennet.gl/alfis/oyhia-3.JPG

http://iserit.greennet.gl/waltere/

http://www.airgreenland.gl/viewPage.php?id=168

http://www.airalpha.com/

[Thomas coupling]

What was that you said Nick!!

How does one beat scenery like that eh???

You lucky man Aesir.

[flying scotsman]

airline capt and heli ATPL.

I LOVE having coffee brought to me on demand and the flying is very challenging to do it right. The pay is good as are the prospects if you're in the right airline as far as security goes. However I started out on helicopters and I really miss the buzz. so much so I am going to renew my ATPL and do a bit of freelance in the summers to keep my hand in.

my advice. Planks are far more civilised and you'll probably get a better standard of living. Heli's are more fun, more exciting, worse paid and less secure employment wise.

if you have a family go for an airline. if you don't, you're young and looking for adventure go to the heli's.

if you're qualified professionally and making good money outside aviation then hang in there and buy a stearman and an R22 and have some fun.

best of luck
FS:ok:

[zeronine]

hey!

im 21 years old, i have my ppl (A) with 125hrs, im doing a degree in aviation mangement and working at london city airport in ground services and it is my ambition to become a commercial pilot. i intend do the theory in the summer of 2006 and to self finance my training probably using a bank loan to train intensively for my CPL in the states in 2006/2007.

however i am unsure as to whether i should aim for my fixed wing or rotary commercial licence! ...as i understand it rotary is much more exciting and varied both flying and work but training cost is greater and salaries are less in comparison to fixed wing.

how does the industry compare for rotary and fixed wing? - are my assumptions true and which has the greatest level of employment? any advice plz!!!

ps. im putting this down to a trial lesson i had for my 21st birthday in an r22 at egsh and having recently finished reading chickenhawk! :)

[Heliport]

Ueful links here (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=122944&highlight=training)

"im doing a degree in aviation mangement"
At a university? :confused:

[Jucky]

Can't decide whether to go fixed wing or rotary? Why not let the Queen decide for you. Try here. (http://www.royal-navy.mod.uk/static/pages/2758.html)

Regards,

Jucky

[RubberDog]

I am seeking a little industry advice...
Currently an Australian CPL(Aeroplane) holder, I am in the process of gaining a helicopter CPL and am wondering what the prospects would be of obtaining work with only 60 - 70 hours rotary (the minimum req for conversion)? Can anyone give me an idea as to what sort of hours operators look for? I have around 2500 hours fixed wing, will this account for anything..?

Thanks in advance,

RD

[chopperpilot47]

I did much the same. I had nearly 3,000 hours fixed wing before I went rotary. I obtained the commercial with 50 hours but really did not expect a job of any kind. I owned a helicopter so built up 200 hours fairly quickly and took the flight instructor rating to find I was uninsurable as a flight instructor! I could fly photographers, rides, sightseeing etc until I had 250 in a helo. I bought a helicopter school so that was my job sorted out.

The instructors I employ seem to need the golden 1,000 hours in helicopters before they get a sniff of a job. It does not seem to matter how much fixed wing time they have, if you want to fly helicopters you need rotary time.

I don't think there is any short cut. You need to build up helicopter time and the traditional route is through instructing. It is not a bad job in itself, you will learn a lot and get to fly different types of machine and you actually get paid as well!

Good luck,

Chopperpilot47

[belly tank]

Rubber Dog,

Afriend of mine had about 1500hrs plank time and did his helo conversion.

he went up north to one of the larger mustering crowds and got a job flying planks in the meantime buttering up management that eventually he would like to get into helo's.

he ended up doing the odd ferry etc for a while and they put him through his mustering ticket now he's on helo's full time up there. so it can happen if you try hard enough!

[Heliport]

belly tank

There's a selection of threads here which might help:

Training and Job Prospects FAQ (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=122944)
Heliport

[belly tank]

heliport,

Rubber dog asked the question, I just replied to his queery. :)

[eoincarey]

Hi

Ive recently passed my fixed wing ppl, and quite fancy going into helicopters at some point (wallet allowing). Can somebody give me a no bs assessment of what helicopter flying is like? I had a trial lesson which i thought was great, but it seems to me that when you take the controls yourself, the fun goes out of it as youre concentrating so hard keeping the bloody thing in the air. Also, what about safety? Most of my fixed wing friends have warned me away from those "egg whisks" saying there too dangerous; how dangerous exactly? How many hours can i get knocked off the ppl h course with my ppl a (gotta watch the pennies in my case)? And is there such a thing as affordable chopper flying? I say this because looking at a price list, i can get 3 pa28 hours for one r22 hour. Would appreciate some help please.

Cheers

Eoin Carey

[Whirlygig]

I'll try and answer this but, as I've never flown a fixed-wing thingy, there might some folk out there who could give you a better perspective.

Oh yes. You have to concentrate at all times. However, what you are concentrating on varies! I understand it is a lot harder on the whole to fly but, as you already have a PPL(A), you will be familiar with some aerodynamic characteristics, navigation and you'll be used to dealing with the radio. What you won't be used to is not taking your hands off the controls and having to memorize your read-backs to Air Traffic!

In the UK, you'll get 6 hours credit for having a PPL(A) but, be warned, very few people get through in the minimum hours.

Lastly, helicopters are not dangerous. Safety is paramount and that you will be taught. I've heard it argued that you are better off in a single-engined helicopter than single-engine aeroplane if the engine fails.

BUT....


Why helicopter pilots are different

Helicopters are different from aeroplanes.

An aeroplane, by its nature, wants to fly and. If not interfered with too strongly by unusual events or a deliberately incompetent pilot, it will fly.

A helicopter does not want to fly.

It is maintained in the air by a variety of forces and controls working in opposition to each other and, if there is any disturbance in this delicate balance, the helicopter stops flying; immediately and distrastrously.

This is why being a helicopter pilot is so different from being an aeroplane pilot and why, in generality, aeroplane pilots are open, clear-eyed, buoyant extroverts and helicopter pilots are brooding, introspective anticipators of trouble.

They know that if something bad has not happened, it is about to.

Cheers

Whirlygig

[Whirlybird]

I fly both f/w and rotary, so can maybe add a little to what my good friend Whirlygig said. Helicopter flying is not really more difficult, just different. If you like hands-on flying, and having to actually fly the aircraft all the time, you'll like helicopters. If you prefer to take off, trim it out, look at the view, re-fold your map, and have a bit of a break till you land, then stick to fixed wing.

Concerning safety, a lot of rubbish is talked by some f/'w pilots about helicopters. If you have engine failure in a f/w aircraft, you have more time, but you need to find a decent field. In a helicopter, you have less time to establish autorotation, but all you need is a flat area to land on. Swings and roundabouts really.

Yes, helicopter flying is more expensive. But I would have said about double, not three times as much. And remember, you don't need to waste time - and money - taxiing etc in a helicopter; as soon as you lift into the hover, you're flying, and having fun. And you spend much less time doing circuits and landing too. So it's not as much more expensive as it appears.

Your choice really. But if you decide to fly both, be careful while you're learning; I found it confusing for a while. Once you've learned, they seem to sort themselves out OK.

[eoincarey]

Thanks for all the advice. Quite like that description of the difference between choppers and f/w!
On my trial flight, I really did enjoy the hands on experience, the viz was great, and i guess it was the versatility and that "helicopter experience" that made me really enjoy it.
Combine that with your excellent advice, and i think i might just give it a crack.
Time to start saving!!
Cheers
Eoin Carey

[The Rotordog]

First thing, Eoin, is for you to tell us Yanks how to pronounce your name!

As for helicopters, yes they are "different." There are many prejudices in aviation, especially between helicopter people and fixed-wing people. Many misconceptions, too.

It is often stated that you must never remove your hands from the controls of a helicopter. This paints a strange image, and it is not entirely correct. To be sure, there are times when the helicopter needs it's controls attended to full-time. But not always. Properly set up in cruise (you know, if you're going somewhere), you can sit back and relax and enjoy the view just as any airplane pilot does. Most helicopters have a cyclic stick-trim system or a friction adjustment that will keep the stick from moving without input. If the day is not unbearably bumpy, a "sweet-spot" trim-location can usually be found and the ship will run along in a groove, more or less. No helicopter will ever be as naturally stable as a fixed-wing, but neither does every one try to turn themselves upside-down when you release the cyclic.

My first question would be: What do you intend to *do* with the helicopter? Despite what you may fantasize about, helicopters cannot simply land wherever they like. Sure, they can operate "off-airport," but these operations must be set up in advance, which limits the spur-of-the-moment ability to land at that Burger King down there for a Whopper Meal. (Never mind how dangerous that would be.)

If you plan on self-hiring (renting), do not expect that any operator will allow you to do a lot of off-airport stuff, if any. Most will be VERY leery about letting rentors do such risky things.

Even more so than airplanes, helicopters are extremely fuel-critical all the time. Even full-fuel in a helicopter isn't very much (most have trouble staying in the air for three hours.) And unless you plan on flying solo, don't plan on topping-off the tanks. If you fill all the seats *and* take along some baggage, you won't be going very far. Finding fuel when doing a lot of off-airport stuff is a big problem for us commercial guys. We never stray far from a fuel source (i.e. airport).

Oops, did I say baggage in that last paragraph? Small, two-seat helicopters have *NO* space for baggage. The R-22 has a tiny amount of space underneath the seats, but that's usually taken up by crap (oil, tools, etc). The four-seat R-44 has four underseat bins. Leave the Louis Vuitton stuff at home and put your stuff in knapsacks. Small knapsacks. The five-seat, turbine-powered Bell 206 has a decent baggage boot, but nobody is going to rent you one of those. And no, a 206 is not "double" the cost of your beloved Archer or Warrior. Multiply by about five. Maybe six.

The bottom line to all of this is that if you get a PPL-H and do not buy your own helicopter, you'll be forced to rent. And the helicopters you rent will be small, two-seaters. And if you rent, you'll be forced to operate from and to airports. And if you're operating from and to airports, you might as well be flying an air-plane.

Yes, helicopters are fun, challenging and rewarding. Mastering the skill is an achievement of which you can be justifiably proud. But a PPL-H is of VERY limited use...unless you like to spend oodles of money hovering around an airfield. Once you're up and flying, it's an aircraft like any other....well...slower, less stable, thirstier and less comfortable, but other than that, just like any other.

Stick to airplanes. They're more bang for the buck and you can actually do stuff with them.

[Salty123]

Stick to airplanes. They're more bang for the buck and you can actually do stuff with them.

All depends on the situation. I have yet to meet some of my jet jockey brethren who will fly at 15 feet AHO.

Of course, this is certainly not something you would do in civvie land.:D

The simple explanation I use for my non-flying friend is that a helicopter is like riding a unicycle while patting your head and rubbing your tummy. The whole thing is very hard at first but, with a bit of practice, it get pretty easy.

W/ respect to the whole hands off thing, if your intention is to eventually go commercial, depending what you are doing there are several models with an auto-pilot like system. The model I fly is pretty much hands off when flying an approach with minor corrections when it gets bumpy.

A helo PPL is certainly a nice thing to have. I would love to get my equivalency if only to rent the nice 206 at the local airport if only to bring my parents up for a nice ride in the fall, and other things like that.

Certainly give it a try if you have the money to spare. If anything it will only help you with your fixed wing flying and your hands and feet.

[paco]

As for safety, the 206 is now the safest single-engined aircraft in the world.

Phil

[flyer43]

paco.

That depends on who is flying it of course!!

[Whirlybird]

The bottom line to all of this is that if you get a PPL-H and do not buy your own helicopter, you'll be forced to rent. And the helicopters you rent will be small, two-seaters. And if you rent, you'll be forced to operate from and to airports. And if you're operating from and to airports, you might as well be flying an air-plane.

This varies in different countries, and when hiring from different schools. When I got my PPL(H), I particularly wanted to visit various friends who had fairly large fields that I could land in. I went with an instructor to the first one, he gave me advice on how to do it, and said I could land anywhere of similar size. I spent all that summer visiting friends for lunch! It was great fun.

At the next place I hired/hourbuilt from the rules were similar, and as I had a little more experience by then they were happy to let me land off airfield almost anywhere I liked. The front lawn of a stately home converted into flats was probably the most fun! Then there was the club trip to France, landing at Paris Heliport in the middle of the city, can't do that in an aeroplane. OK, so we were in an R22, and I'm probably the only woman only to have gone to Paris for the weekend with nothing but a spare T-shirt.... But the C150 in which I have a share is pretty tight on weight for continental touring too.

Concerning the not taking your hands off the controls, Rotordog is of course correct for most helicopters. But not for the R22 in which most of us learn. You have to hold the cyclic at all times; it doesn't have a reliable trim. You can take your hand off the collective, and of course you do, but it's good practice to make sure you could get to it fast in the unlikely event of engine failure. :eek:

To summarise:
Helicopters - tremendous fun to fly, great flexibility of landing places both normally and in an emergency (weather bad, land and have a cup of tea, then carry on), fantastic visibility, even the R22 looks very cool when you go to a fly-in :cool: :). BUT...expensive, probably a little harder overall to fly, need to be actually flown most of the time, R22 in particular is tiring on long flights, usually problems with fuel/weight/storage space on long flights.
Aeroplanes - relatively cheap, easier to find co-pilots or shares when buying, less tiring on long flights as you don't need to do so much, more space and comfort with some types. BUT...can actually get quite boring after a while, unless you do aeros or similar (at a similar cost to flying helicopters), can only land normally or in emergencies in a relatively large space, eg airfield.

There's probably more, but over to someone else.

[flyer43]

Whirlybird:


Helicopters - tremendous fun to fly, great flexibility of landing places both normally and in an emergency (weather bad, land and have a cup of tea, then carry on),

Although what you describe sounds like good fun indeed, this sort of flying is one of the biggest contributors to accidents in the private helicopter flying. How "bad" does weather have to get before a pilot gives up and has a cup of tea? Often it all ends in a smoking hole when a non instrument trained pilot enters cloud "inadvertently".

At the next place I hired/hourbuilt from the rules were similar, and as I had a little more experience by then they were happy to let me land off airfield almost anywhere I liked. The front lawn of a stately home converted into flats was probably the most fun!

Although some training on landing in confined areas is given during basic training, how many private pilots still remember the golden rules of checking the area out before landing. This includes taking into account the strength and direction of the wind and the likelihood of turbulence in the chosen area. Landing reasonably close to a large structure (e.g. the front lawn of a stately home) might mean that the airflow across the landing area is blanked by the structure. This could make a big difference to your day if you are heavily laden........

in the unlikely event of engine failure
Does anybody out there know the reliability of the R22 engine?? Not sure if I would go as far as saying that it is unlikely to fail.

[helicopter-redeye]

As a summary answer to the original question "Its bloody brilliant" (helicopter flying that is).

If you want to go a long way, fast, go in a FW. I crewed down to Barcelona in a TB20 a while ago. Going in the R44 would have taken about three days, taking into account range/ speed/ etc but it was a six hour trip in a 20.

The flying experience in rotary is very different and requires some different and some complimentary flying and airpersonship skills.

It is more expensive (or is it that FW is cheap? discuss) but you can find ways of reducing the cost through group ownership OR group flying (ie two people split the cost of Sheffield to lands End and back and fly half each. The half when your navigating and not hands on is still front seat flying).

Give it a go. You may join the rotary club but you will never leave ...

:ok:

[muffin]

To add to what the others have said..................

I too fly both fixed wing and rotary. If I want to go somewhere more than an hour or so away, I normally take the aeroplane. If I want to have fun, maybe go to a restaurant for lunch or just go flying, I will take a helicopter. I have never found any restriction by hire organisations on where I can land - the whole great thing about a helicopter is its ability to land almost anywhere and if they are happy to let you fly it then where you land is down to you. I would certainly far rather have an engine failure in a helo than a plank.

Re the comments about hands off flying. I do find the R22 very tiring to fly after a while. Due to too much use of a mouse, I suffer sometimes from tennis elbow, which is actually on the outer side of my forearm just below the elbow. When flying the R22 in the cruise, it requires a constant forward cyclic pressure as the cyclic trim is a crude on off device that does not help an awful lot. After a while, this really makes my arm ache and as you cannot let go of the thing you wind up using your right knee as a steadying anchor. About an hour of this is about all I can stand, so this is one reason I take an airplane if it is a long trip. As far as I know, the R22 is the only light helo that has this problem as all the others have an effective cyclic trim.

Great fun though!

[helicopter-redeye]

The 44 hydraulic can be flown for hours without any of the R22 pain (it hurts me too). The longest I've done in one day in an R44 is 10.5hrs (midsummer day, when its always light) and I had zero wrist pain that comes with 1.5hrs in an R22.

Jet Rangers are comfy too.

h-r

[Whirlybird]

flyer43,

OK, maybe I should have qualified what I wrote...so thank you for doing it for me.

Concerning landing if the weather closes in, I've always considered this as one of the great advantages of the helicopter. So, actually, does the CAA; in their Safety Sense leaflet on rotary flying they point out that helicopters have the advantage of being able to land almost anywhere, and advise pilots to land rather than press on in marginal weather. At the school where I got my PPL(H), they suggested that if the weather was such that you had to slow down to less than 60 kts, or fly below 500ft, you should land. That sounds like common sense to me. Of course, some pilots treat such advice as a licence to fly anywhere in any conditions; well, anything can be misused by idiots, can't it?

Concerning the landing on the front lawn of the stately home, I'd checked everything out from the ground, knew that I could approach into the field next to it and hop over the fence, that there were no wires, and that there was plenty of room. and good escape routes. I'd also considered the weather and the direction of the wind. I'd like to think all PPLs who land off airfield know about these things, but pointing them out does no harm.

I have the figures concerning R22 accidents somewhere. Very, very few are caused by engine failure. It is generally known to be an unlikely event, although of course always possible.

[flyer43]

Whirlybird:

Thanks for taking my comments as they were meant, and glad to hear that you obviously know the correct way to approach a dangerous pastime. I just wish that everybody would apply the same common sense at the right time rather than get "press on itis" and tempt providence.

Safe flying :cool:

[Whirlygig]

that you had to slow down to less than 60 kts
I'm thrashing the poor little heart out of a Schweizer at just over 60kts! But then it is the slowest thing in the sky ;)

Jet Rangers are comfy too.
The seats aren't :(

Anyway Eion (pronounced Ewan?), I hope this gives you some insight into the similarities and the differences.

There is one thing though of which you must be aware - if you go for the helicopter licence be prepared to be addicted and spend a lot of money. If you don't think you can afford best not to tempt yourself. It's a bad ol' bug to catch. If I had never had a heli flight in summer 2002, I wouldn't have known any different and would be several £'000s better off. Mind you, I'd have gone and done something daft like buy myself a 911.

Cheers

Whirlygig

[Droopystop]

Eion (pronounced Ian I think),

How much money have you got? Rhetorical question - no reply required. If you can only just afford the ppl(h) stick to planks until you have saved plenty of pennies. I reckon that you would need to comfortably be able to afford at least an hours self fly hire a fortnight after you have paid for the ppl. I personally think that you need an hour a week to get value for money out of the ppl. I am sure others have differing opinions on how much flying you need to do to get value for money. But once a week and 50ish hours a year would be a minimum I would set myself to remain current. But that's another question.

It would be shame to spend all that money and never be able to afford to use it.

[eoincarey]

Thanks for all the replies
Firstly, probably shoud clarify the name thing, its pronounced owen and is probably the worst spelling in the world!
Ive already had a trial flight and loved it, but the money is really the big issue. Suppose it would be fair to say that f/w is more practical for a-b stuff, but in my lifetime i won't be doing a great deal of that stuff (my airport isnt all that local), so im really looking to get the best flying experience for the dosh.
Cheers
Eoin (Owen)

[GLSNightPilot]

im really looking to get the best flying experience for the dosh.
In that case, go with ultralights. You get the slow, upclose and personal flying experience for the least cost. Helicopters are the most expensive way to fly, by far - at least an order of magnitude more expensive than a fixed-wing.

[slowrotor]

GLS,
I am interested in your comparison of ultralight and helicopter for low and slow.
It seems to me that for safety the helo pilot will almost always takeoff and land with a shallow angle. This requires a large field so an ultralight with a steep climb could operate at many of the same places.
In the case of power loss an ultralight is going to need about 100ft or so to land and a helo maybe 50ft. Not much different.
slowrotor

[EdoKazumichi]

Okay, here's my deal.

I'm a 5000+ hour fixed-wing ATP and CFI with plenty of turbine/multiengine time. 37 years old. U.S. citizen. Could get a cushy jet job somewhere, settle in and wait for retirement, old age, decrepitude and death. Or I could mortgage the farm, get my helicopter ratings and go off and do....well.....whatever it is that dual-rated pilots do.

So, what're your recommendations? Choose one.

1. Sober up and go for the jet gig 'cuz I'm in for a long, uphill fight to get a job well-paid enough to justify the extraordinary expense of rotary ratings.

2. Go for it! There is a strong demand for helicopter pilots - especially ones who can go both ways....er....fly fixed-wing, too.

Any input would be greatly appreciated

[paco]

I'd go for option one, plus get it out of your system with a PPL/CPL - No 2 is correct as far as it goes, but the demand is for experienced pilots. Being dual rated myself, with some time on both, I can tell you there isn't much demand for it - all you do is delay the point at which you are more employable in both fields.

phil

[EdoKazumichi]

Thanks, paco.

The PPL/CPL-get-it-out-of-my-system idea has merit. I suspect that the money that I'd spend on that would be far less than the income I would forego by moving into the helicopter world.

What about flight instructing? Do those jobs require alot of experience, too?

[paco]

But when did common sense have anything to do with it? :)

There is a need for good flying instructors, but I don't know too much about that - perhaps an instructor might have some suggestions, but I know that you still need a CPL as part of the qualification. But you're a CFI anyway - if you're only bringing people up to a certain standard that may not matter. It's probably the best way.

Phil

[Gerhardt]

"cyclical pattern" I get it. That's funny stuff.

[SASless]

Given a chance to fly nice jets....live in nice hotels while away...for very short periods of time....eat in nice restaurants...play golf at good courses.....or live in squalid house trailers with four or five other guys....doing your own cooking...staying gone for a month of more at the time....at less pay....ah, heck there is no choice. Go helicopter and become a gypsy with AIDS....aviation induced divorce syndrome.

[Buitenzorg]

Paco and SASless are right. If you’d rather fly than eat, sleep, or do the other thing I’m not allowed to mention here, this being a family forum and all… then a career as a helicopter pilot may be for you.

But if you have, or aspire to, or think in the distant future you might like, a life besides the job – stay away! It’ll save a lot of bitterness.

And yes, doing a heli PPL off all that moolah that’s sure to come your way with the jet job will be well worth it.

[Hidden Agenda]

I agree with the general sentiment.

If I had it to do again, I wouldn't!!!!!!

“Gear up…coffee please”

Well I can dream, can’t I?

[pipergirl]

hello all...

just a bit curious about something-
If you have a PPL (a) with all ATPL exams complete and you decide you want to fly rotary..how do you go about the conversion?
Do you have to start from scratch?
Can you use any of the ATPL exams towards any exams for the PPL or CPL(H)?
Is it difficult?

thanks
:}

[Whirlygig]

I think that your PPL(A) exams should be valid for PPL(H) with the exception maybe of Principles of Flight (being a slightly different principle!!) and definitely the Aircraft Specific (since you will be a getting a rating in a different machine!).

Depending on time limits, your ATPL(A) exams should also be valid but you may have to sit the Helicopter Principles of Flight. There is very little difference between the exams for CPL(A) / CPL(H) and ATPL(A) and ATPL(H).

As for the actual flying bit - your PPL(H) minimum hours are reduced by 6 to 39. But beware, you may not do it in minimum hours; very few do!

Cheers

Whirls

[FixedRotaryWing]

If you are going to get a JAR-FCL CPL(H) you find useful information in JAR-FCL 2.050(b) and in Appendix 1 to JAR-FCL 2.050.

Unfortunately it says that you need an ATPL(A) or CPL(A) with ATPL-Theory to get the credit.

[JAR BOY]

Evening all,

Does anyone know whats required to convert a Frozen ATPL (A) to a frozen ATPL (H) if I already have an FAA CPL H?

Can I use the JAA ATPL exams that I already passed for the fixed wing courses, or do I have to re-sit them all again? :eek:

Thanks

[gls.fly]

Not sure about the flying side but the ground exams are the same for A and H.... all you would have to do is Principles of Flight (H).

Hope it helps.

[Rotorcraft]

JAR BOY,

For JAA, from CAA licencing department, ref LASORS 2005:

...."In order to satisfy the theoretical knowledge requirements for the JAR-FCL ATPL(H), the holder of a JAR-FCL ATPL(A), or CPL(A) with valid ATPL(A) theory credit, is required to complete bridge instruction for the subjects/topics detailed in Appendix 1 to JAR-FCL 2.050. In addition, a pass in the following ATPL(H) examinations must be obtained, in accordance with JAR-FCL 2.490:- Performance: Operational Procedures: Principles of Flight (H) and the Composite ATPL(H) bridge examination"....

I have just bridged from JAR ATPL(H) to (A),

Hope that helps,

Rotorcraft

[gls.fly]

Jar Boy

I have just finished my ATPL (H) exams and the only difference between that and the (A) was the principles of flight and the fact I didn t have to do performance. I believe that there are no helicopter specific papers at the moment but the CAA are planning to change... Always worth a quick call to the CAA, they can give you the definitive answer.

[Pofman]

There seems to be a misconception that there is not a full set of ATPL(H) exams in all subjects. They have been in force for at least two years at helicopter only schools, such as HAI and now Dragon with their CPL(H).
The f/w schools were granted an exemption during the transition stage and this seems to have been extended indefinitely for commercial reasons as it would not make sense for them to hold separate classes for one or two pupils. Thus they do all f/w except for POF(H).
However, as you can see in LASORs there is a bridging exam for ATPL(A) to (H) consisting of POF(H),OPS PROC(H), Perf(H), and a composite paper consisting of Air Law, Airframes and systems, Instrumentation, Mass and balance, Flight Planning and monitoring.
This paper seems to be a committee idea. Air law is not generic, instruments work the same way with different markings on them, flight planning is low level with a different chart and a slow speed confuser, M&B is pure calculation, the only difference is that MTOW is the same as MLDGW. So all we really needed was the old Rotor controls and transmission, which used to be included in POF(H).
That is what we have got, so pass the lot.

[englishal]

What actual flying would need to be done to convert FAA to JAA? I'm guessing that if the candidate is already a JAA IR(A) holder plus FAA IR(H) holder, then the IR requirements are probably met, and then they would only have to satisfy the examiner during a check flight? Likewise with the CPL I would assume.

To go from FAA CPL/IR(A) to FAA CPL/IR(H) (assuming R22) you would need 20 hours dual (because its a Robinson), plus 35 hours pilot in command. The IR requirements would be met, by virtue of the IR(A) and so the CPL/IR check ride could be acomplished in one hit at around 55 hours....unless there is some excemption for the 35 hr solo by virtue of the CPL/IR(A)........

cheers

[Kengineer-130]

PPL(A) to PPL(H) ??

Hey guys, I gained my PPL (A) last year, and I was just wondering how much flying time and ground school is allowed to be transferred t a PPL (H), as I quite fancy doing my helicopter licence as it looks like cracking fun :ok: , also , how much is it going to cost approximatly, as I know they are more expensive than light aircraft to operate. Can anyone reccomend any schools around the birmingham/midlands area :ok: cheers guys

[muffin]

I did the same thing just before JAR came in but I don't think that the regs have changed that much. I was allowed 5 hours off the rotary PPL course and the only extra exam I had to do was the helicopter tech one. Budget around £10k for the whole thing, and don't do what I did and assume you will complete it in the minimum hours - very few do.

There are rotary training schools at Coventry, Wolverhampton, Shobdon. East Mids, Nottingham, Wellesbourne, Tatenhill to name but a few. Depends which side of Bham you live. You will enjoy it!

[mongoose237]

You get credited with 10% of your fixed-wing PIC time, up to a maximum of 6 hours (so absolute minimum is 39 hours). You must also sit 1. Aircraft General & Principles of Flight, and 2. Flight Performance & Planning. You must do a minimum of 20 hours Dual.

Certain examiners also deem it unnecessary to undertake the solo x-country qualifier, however I have not seen that written down anywhere. I would suggest checking with the CAA.

I have trained a few fixed-wing converts in various helicopters, professional pilots and high-time recreational flyers. Although they managed it in minimum time it was a squeeze, and they all felt that it was considerably harder (but also more rewarding) than learning fixed-wing.

Costs depend on type, ballpark figures are £200-230 R22, £230-270 H269, £350ish R44 (all ex VAT)

[Hangar3]

For legal requirements check LASORS 2006 (www.caa.co.uk) download. For training a JAA PPL(H) with a JAA PPL(A):

Flight training credits:
10% total time (Fixed Wing) or a maximum of 6 hours (leaving you with 39 to complete the licence)

Ground Exams Credits
All you need to take are:
Aircraft General / Principle of Flight (Helicopters)
Flight Performance & Planning

These are the minimum regs. :ok:

[rudestuff]

Don't expect fixed wing flying to help you out much when it comes to hleicopters - completely different, although general air experience, rules and regs, nav, met etc will help. Its going to be very expensive - if you get a month off it would be cheaper to go to the US - about half the price. You might be able to do a JAA PPL(H) there but I wouldn't bother - get an FAA one (JAA is restricted to type but FAA lets you fly anything under 12,500lbs)
Cheaper to get (FAA has no license issue fees), cheaper to maintain (fly with a CFI every 24months and you're good to go) and its perfectly valid in the UK.

[mongoose237]

If you take the route rudestuff suggests, may I suggest you first visit the schools you will be wanting to hire from on your return to the UK.

Many schools are unaware of the finer points of licence recognition and in any event are within their rights to impose any number of restrictions before hiring you an aircraft.

Some schools are very good about it, others not so. The cost of either:
1. Travelling to a FAA friendly school everytime you want to fly; or
2. Complying with the schools requirements
may make the cost savings somewhat less.

Also even though you would be within your rights to fly in the UK on your fresh FAA licence, whether you feel comfortable doing so may be another matter entirely! Airspace and procedure is considerably different

Edit

Actually, you already have fixed-wing experience in the UK so that negates my last comment to a large degree

[Gerhardt]

I loved flying the 150 and PA-28 x-c and got together with friends at least once a week to go somewhere, anywhere. Also made quite a few solo x-c flights just to see the country. I'm not sure why but one day a few months ago I thought it would be fun to take an intro ride in an R22. I've flown just a few hours fixed wing since, and am about to take my checkride for the helicopter add-on rating. Like the others said, it is expensive. But worth every dime. I suspect that the whirly girls will second that.

The only advice I can offer is to find an instructor you're comfortable with. You'll know pretty quickly if he/she isn't right for you and don't be shy about changing.

Don't think about the amount of money you're spending while training. It's an obscene amount, but worth every dime.

[Kengineer-130]

cheers for the info guys. I did my PPL (A) in the states, so I have experience of the uk and the US :ok: , with regards to the FAA/JAA licence, is there any difference in the training and cost, or is it a fairly similar sylabus, as I would really prefer the JAA licence as I will spend most time in europe and it will probably make life easier regarding hiring aircraft etc. Just out of interest are there many JAA US schools around? :ok:

I was reading somewhere that if you want to go commercial, you can skip the PPL and just do the commercial training instead? don't knnow how true this is but sounds a bit bizzare to me?

[mongoose237]

I was reading somewhere that if you want to go commercial, you can skip the PPL and just do the commercial training instead? don't knnow how true this is but sounds a bit bizzare to me?
The integrated routes (there are two) train ab initio. Most people take the modular route, which requires an ICAO PPL(H) beforehand.

I recommend downloading LASORS 2006 (http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/LASORS_06_WEB.pdf) as it will answer most of your licencing questions

[JB10]

Hey Guys,

Does anyone now what training credits converting from full ATPL fixed wing to rotary. Heard CHC where running a sponsered IR propgram?

Cheers In advance

[Fokkerwokker]

Am in the same boat. Need to convert onto flingwings ( PPL(H) )and would appreciate any info on credits.

Could anyone point me to a website that spells it out please? Drawn a blank so far.

Ta.

FW

[TheFlyingSquirrel]

should be in LASORS kids !

[Fokkerwokker]

Ooooops!

Found it ta!

:O

[Flying Lawyer]

kids !

You probably made Fokkerwokker's day. :)

(He's a senior training captain on 747-400s.)


FL

[Blackhorse]

I am a current B737 Captain with Southwest Airlines in the US. Looking back on my career...The most fun working with the best people was a two season stint flying the bush in a Highes 500D in Alaska during the late 70s early 80s. Not that I don't work with a good bunch now but I remember the times fondly

Clint

[Don'tsink77]

Sounds interesting and I was considering the option to do the commercial add-on on my FAA license. This b/c www.heli.com (http://www.heli.com) offers the program for almost the same price as the private program for FAA PPL(H).

I already posses an written ATPL(A) and if I am right I'll get credits for 11 subjects??? I only have to do "Performance", "Principles of flight" and "Aircraft general knowledge"?:eek:

I

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

I am a 50+ experienced fixed-wing, instrument rated CPL.

I romped through pilot training as a 25 year old, but am I now too old to learn to fly a helicopter?

My current thinking is to buy an R44 and learn to fly it.

Anyone care to recommend a helicopter flying instructor in Qld? I am looking for someone with the grey hair that comes with lots of experience - and I suspect they will need to be very patient!

Dr :8

[Flying Binghi]

FTDK, Frank Robbinson made the comment that the most dangerous helicopter pilot, is a fixed wing pilot. (I think I saw it in the back of a R22 flight manual)

[Brian Abraham]

FTDK, Tub Mathieson (sp) at Chopperline Caloundra. Old info and may well be out of date. Much is made of a FW swapping over but I don't see it as any great problem. Good luck and enjoy the experience, as I'm sure you will. :ok:

[Alpharotor]

I am 51 and also was an instrument rated Bonanza and Barron driver since I was 22. Got the chopper bug at 45 and had no problem adding on the rating. Made me feel very small and humble during the process though. I put 600 hours on my R22 before going to a R44 I have about 800 R44 hours and took delivery of my New ship last July. I gave up the fixed wing. It really no longer interests me and I dont feel as safe in the airplane. The utility of flying from home to landing right at fishing and hunting camp is great. Give it a try, you'll get hooked and your not too old.

[Popoll]

i'm 19 (living in Belgium) and thinking of going into rotary but with the same amount of money (which I'm still figuring out how to get together:confused:) I could just as easily go for ATPL(A), earn the money back, live in a house (not in a car from what i've read so far). and just wait a while to then go into rotary. It would take a while longer but I'd be flying:) (and living in that house)
so to all of you rotary pilots (lucky guys): what would you suggest/do?

PS: i know there's a thread about "would you do it again". but there's a slight nuance to this question.

[Whirlygig]

All that I can find is information for new students but what about converting?

That is sadly, because it is a new licence, not a conversion. The only advantage is that you won’t have to do all the CPL/ATPL ground exams again; just Principles of Flight (as far as I know) and maybe Performance depending on your course and syllabus.

So, you do a PPL(H) first with only a maximum of 6 fixed wings hours to credit i.e. the minimum in which you can pass the PPL(H) is 39 hours – again, there will be theory credits.

155 hours TT in helicopters before you can start a commercial flying course in helicopters. The IR(H) is quite a different kettle of fish – you will get some credit for you fixed wing time for this.

All this information is in LASORS.

Cheers

Whirls

[collector]

Hello!

I have a PPL(A) with an ATPL(A) theory and a CPL(H).
Now I would like to add an ATPL(H) theory to my CPL(H).

Guys form our Aviation Authorities insist that I will have to take 6 bridge exams in order to get my ATPL(H) theory.
They reffered to Appendix 1 to JAR-FCL 2.050.
I am having a hard time trying to find something like my example in JAR FCL 2.
I think that Appendix 3 to JAR-FCL 2.050 is more appropriate to my case but it also calls for 5 exams!

As far as I can see, there are differences only in Performances and Principles of Flight exams...

What do you think?

[Diaan]

I don't know if this question was asked before, but if it was-please inform me and show me where to look for my answer, because I couldn't find it anywhere...

Would it be better to train for a FW pilot and then go to helicopters? Or would it be better to just train for helicopters if that is what I want to do?
The reason why I ask this is because of the low payment(?) that helicopter pilots get and also the job opportunities...especially when newly trained,etc...

I also foud out it is more expensive to train for a helicopter pilot-would it be possible to train for a HCPL if I am a FW within a short period? Because my whole vision is to fly HELICOPTERS,but it looks to me from the posts on the site that it is difficult to survive if you have a family. Thats why I want to have a FW qualification. Although-I know it would bore me.

I am in Africa,but have access to south africa where i want to do my training.

[Garfs]

Diaan

I say chose one or the otherand stick with it. I think at the end of the day tho if you have a family to feed then you have to think of them n urself first

If you went down the FW route tho and managed to get a well paid job with the airlines, you could always then do heli flying as a hobby

[liftman]

Hy guys,


I tried helipilots thread but i need some more specific.


at present my situation is:

35 years old, 1800 TT fixed wing 1500 airline jet IFR.

Thinking of switch in helicopter, I though FAA add -on with IR and twin transition in order to save money and then try getting a job in CHC, Bristow or Era, possibly in Europe.

1) My fixed wing experience is recognised by them or is useless?
2) Do they employ FAA licensed pilot or it is better a JAA one
3) Do they have maximum age for recruitment?

Do you think could be a possible "dream" come true or my plan is completely irrealistic?

thanks to all, any further sujjestion is very welcome and appreciated.

[misterbonkers]

If you're looking to fly in Europe go JAA. Get a respectable job with a respectable operator in Europe.

The dangers of short cutting the system MAY have been realised in a recent accident listed elsewhere on this forum. The system (despite making us feel hard done by at times) is there for the benefit of passengers AND pilots alike.

[Revolutionary]

misterbonkers, calm down will ya?


liftman, a couple of pointers: The FAA license will get you started on the path to becoming a helicopter pilot but it won't do you much good in Europe. You'll eventually need to get a JAA license. Also: there's really no such thing as a twin helicopter rating or transition in the US. Sure, you can do your add-on in a twin but it would be incredibly costly and serve no purpose whatsoever.

Your fixed-wing experience counts for something but not in the sense that you can just add all your logbook hours together and expect to wow any helicopter operator. If you were authorized to work in the US you could perhaps find a job flying offshore in the Gulf of Mexico with about 750 hours of helicopter experience. A chief pilot might then look at your IFR twin fixed wing time and put you straight in an IFR twin helicopter as a co-pilot.

You should be able to parlay a year or two of experience in the Gulf of Mexico into a job in Europe provided you can afford to convert your FAA ticket to a JAA one. Your age doesn't matter that much, really. More important for your plan, I think, is getting employment authorization in the country (countries) where you want to get on.

Honestly though why on earth would you want to switch to helicopters? Flying an IFR twin helicopter is pretty much the same as flying an IFR twin airplane (save the take-off and landing) but pays a lot less.

[darrenphughes]

he's not trying to shortcut the system. He came here looking for advice, not someone to rip on him. Misterbonkers, If you've nothing useful to say then don't say anything at all!

[carsickpuppy]

It's a big crazy world, I've toyed with the idea of going from rotary to fixed :ugh:

[krypton_john]

Why don't you and liftman just swap id cards, jobs (and wives?) for a week and see how much you like it!

[JimbosJet]

Hey rotorheads, I hope someone is able to help me out. I am an experienced but sadly unemployed (4600hrs total, 4300 jet) ATPL(A) Captain.

Clearly I have done the usual cv bombing campaign to try and return to work, but I have always had an interest in Helis and after hooking up seriously with a Norwegian gf am looking into Helicopters as a way to move closer with a final goal of settling down properly.

Now withholding the usual "career first, relationship second" arguments, how much realistically will I be hit for should I convert my ATPL(A) to CPL(H)?

I understand I will be exempt from some parts but not sure which exams and how many hrs are knocked off from the CPL(H) requirement. Does my fixed wing IR count for or towards the heli IR?

Are any of my fixed wing hrs relevant to a potential employer? Am I wasting my time even contemplating the move to rotary?

I'm sure a quick call to the UK CAA would make this clearer, but nothing beats some genuine (hopefully unbiased) advice from fellow pilots

Thanks in advance.

[timex]

Jim, you don't mention how many hours you have on Rotary?

[JimbosJet]

None sadly! :(

[Droopystop]

Jimbo,

You need to identify what sort of wage you want and therefore what sort of employer you are likely to be looking at. Then give them all a call. I think the job market might be tight for a while.

[wish2bflying]

I've heard CHC is hiring new CPL(H) pilots with only 200hrs rotary for jobs in Norway ... not sure about pay though.

http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/353543-rotary-jobs-3.html#post4704144

[Oneflewover]

Hi All,

Just wondering if anyone would have info on converting a JAA ATPL(H) to a JAA ATPL(A) and what's required in the process?

Specifically, additional theory exams and credited flying hrs info.

Anyone done so lately and if so what school did you fly at? UK or abroad?

Any advice would be much appreciated.

Thanks.

[helinewb]

Hi, I have been looking into obtaining my heli licence and someone has pointed out that as I am already a fixed wing PPL that all I have to do is an add on. I have been looking in the FAR and cannot seem to find where it says what requirements I need as far as solo time and what needs to be done. Can someone please list the exact requirements and where I can find them. The closest I have got is FAR 61.109 C but it is vague as to what needs to be done for an add on.

Any info gratefully received!

HN :ok:

P.S. I just spent the last hour in the search but to no avail!

[Gordy]

Check here then come back if you have questions:

Requirement Checklist (http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/avs/offices/afs/afs800/afs810/checklist/media/aero-exp.doc)

[C42]

I have a JAR PPL (fixed wing) with a few hundred hours and I want to now tackle the challenge of rotary flight. I have had a chat with a couple of heli pilots and from what I can work out, most of the exams are the same, and I can cross credit some fixed wing hours across.
How many hours do I have to do and what exams will need to be done? I had a quick go in a rotorway the other day and although I was over controlling a bit, I managed to hover it for a few mins before we flew away and I felt quite comfortable in forward flight (I was expecting it to be impossible from what people told me!)
Also, has anyone got any recommendations for training? im in Essex (Canvey Island)

Dave

[RJC]

I think there is a heli school at Southend Airport, so perhaps a visit to them to get a few answers over credits and the like.

Perhaps a trial lesson with them, to get a feel for it in a suitable environment? It will count as time should you decide to go for it.

Once you have some facts, you can then look round for a flight school which suits you.

Usual caveats that any school may say 'you are a natural' for business etc. Plenty of threads here over such things.

Also a PM sent.

[Pandalet]

pretty much everything you need to know is in LASORS. I believe you get a 5-hour credit for having a PPL(A), plus some of the exams.

[Deegan]

Talk to Tailwheelsetc . They do a very good job.
I just did my instrument there, nex year my comercial.

Check out the price and details:
Helicopter (http://www.tailwheelsetc.com/html/helicopter.html)

[Stoey]

Look at 61.109 (C)
look away from the 40 hour req. as it doesnt say 40Hours RW.

Look at 61.109(c) 1-2-3 etc there you have the speciffic req. what you need to do, 3Hours X/C in a helicopter (25nm) and so on.

[Heli-phile]

I always like to hear of aviators joining the ranks who have a full understanding of the limitations, pitfalls and capabilities of Helicopters and fixed wing alike. Makes a safer and better overall pilot as far as I'm concerned.

Well I suppose I'm bound to really!!:ok:

[n5296s]

You need 20 hrs of heli dual (not clear you do actually but it's hard to imagine anyone signing you off for solo without it), 10 hrs of solo, 3 hrs of night dual, 3 hrs of XC, 1 XC flight to a destination at least 50 (?) miles away with 3 landings at different places. XC in a heli is 25nm, not 50. Practically speaking it will be difficult to get it all to come together in much less than 40.

n5296s

[dirtybungs]

hi,
my name's aldren
im from south east asia...
im writing and opening a new thread as i believe there's no similar situation posted in any threads before.

i am a CPL FW holder. Singe engine without IR and ME rating. Actually im halfway to complete my course (with only twin engine and a couple of papers left).

Recently my thoughts has wandered around helicopters, im thinking about forgetting my complete FW license and to change course to helicopter. I need about 100 hrs on R44 and yes, course is the constraint but if i were to succeed to find a sponsor (already talking to one company) i still have few things lingering my doubt.

1) i really want to be a helicopter pilots as it's more manly, more macho, and the fun of flying is there. what say you guys who have flown both? I have about 165 hrs on SE FW

2) one thing i afraid is the steep lurning curve when we start to fly the choppers. I think im a slow learner, i only cleared for solo after 21 hrs of training on a cirrus sr20 while my friends did earlier than that.

3) future prospect : in long term, say....10-20 years who will make more money? FW widebody captain or senior traning captain in rotary world (oil and gas)?

4) quality of life : my friends who's dad flying chopper for offshore operation for the company (which im talking to) spends a lot of time at home...pay, i dont know..but i think around RM 20,000 at least.. ( $ 5700 ) per month...

is it worth it for me to change now or wait till i finish my complete FW license, flying FW for a couple of years before finally deciding to learn to fly the real mean machine?

thank you in advance for any response....

[bolkow]

Dont assume you're a slow learner based on the hours before you did solo on its own. Many factors come into this including the freuency of your flight training. If the periods are less frequent you're likely to forget and need to repeat parts of it.

[alouette3]

Helicopters make less money for their owners than FW.Hence, the money will always be better in FW.A wide body captain will win hands down as far as pay ,allowances and benefits go.Their unions are stronger than ours and they have great marketability.
No one can predict what life will be in 10-20 years. What I can predict is that it will take you at least that long to get to the point where money starts to get comfortable. Not great, not pouring in, but comfortable.
If you wanted fun and macho flying --go to the military. Civilian helicopter flying can be heart breaking, stressful and a constant battle with your employer to prove that you are slightly better than the janitor.And if you don't have a union, you will always lose.
Lifestyle can be good. You will be home a lot more than the aforementioned wide body captain but that will only happen after the aforementioned 10-20 years.
If ,despite all this, you still want to give it a shot,good luck.And yes, before you ask, I only do it because I don't know how to do anything else and so far it has been okay. Had lots of fun in the military and now I work for a unionized company.I wouldn't have done it any other way.
Alt3.

[Gordy]

Almost think this thread is a troll---think about ...really...

How many more times can I show this:

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j35/helokat/funnies/38bd6a41.jpg

[helimutt]

Oh come on Gordy. How could you possibly think that when he's written this:-

1) i really want to be a helicopter pilots as it's more manly, more macho, and the fun of flying is there.

The only problem with becoming a helicopter pilot, is the rapid descent into cynicism!:ouch:;)
:E

[Whirlygig]

How many more times can I show this:
As many as you like :ok:

The only problem with becoming a helicopter pilot, is the rapid descent into cynicismYeah, I've noticed that too :} Just want to know when I'll become macho. :p

Cheers

Whirls

[ab33t]

Another good thing would be that you could be bothe floppy wing and FW

[Pandalet]

Damnit, my CPL course didn't include anything on how to be more manly or macho! Just as soon as my nail polish has dried, I'm going to type out a letter of complaint!

[griffothefog]

Whirlygig,

If your last comment was serious, I can provide pills for that sort of thing..:p

[dirtybungs]

thank you guys for your replies.

it seems in my country there's a shortage of helicopter pilots, right now they will just take in everyone who have license and i would be lucky if the company im talking to decide to cover the cost of training for me (with of course, a service bond)

have you guys ever met someone with CPL FW decided to call it a day flying the planks and venture out to rotary world?

and i know there are cases of chopper pilots who changed to fixed wing flying after years...tell me a story or two..would like to hear more.

who knows if someday i've finally realised money will never be enough, is it possible to jump to airlines with renewal of my FW CPL license..

[dirtybungs]

any ideas how much captain for CHC affiliate in malaysia flying as332 and s92 earns per month? if no exact figure estimate also appreciated....someone told me figure for fresh co pilot earns somewhat $2000 plus minus other allowance.

[lotuslash]

Dear Colleagues,

I am an 34 years Young Fixed Wing Pilot with around 5400 hours of flight. Including Airline and Corporate Aircrafts, my Question is:

Where and how do i start best my Rotary Career. Since 20 Years i wanted to be an Helicopter Pilot... Now it enough... I going to DO IT.!!!!!!

I speak beside German, English, Italian and French.

I am Swiss Citizen.

Preferably, later on in my Career i would like to find a job in Switzerland. So therefore JAA ATPL H

Where is the best (,... and of Course also the cheapest) Place to do the ATPL H License?

I know that at the end of the day the earning within the Helicopter industry is not that much....... but that the way how i wanna it.

Please give me some advice



May thank for your advice
:)

[helimutt]

Ha Ha. This is a wind up right? If not, May I suggest you start on the bottom rung of the ladder. You cannot just 'get' an ATPL(H) because you have an ATPL(A).

Look up the requirements for holding an ATPL(H). That isn't too hard to do. It's in something called LASORS here in the UK, downloadable from the UK CAA website for free.

The only thing I think you'll get is the reduction in hours for your PPL (H), 5 hours off the course if memory serves me correct.

:hmm:

[HillerBee]

Best place to go is Bristows Academy in Florida. Then you just have to do what we all did, apart from all the 14 exams, you can do a bridging course, still a lot of work. Then the flying part 155 (the modular route) Then do the IR(H), (15 hours). So if you have roughly €100k to spend, fantastic. After you spend that money you will still have to get to a 1000 hours, of which 350 multi-crew before you will have an ATPL(H). I don't know why you think you need an ATPL in Switzerland, because all the flying in Switzerland and Austria for that matter is VFR.

Bottomline, you have to start at the bottom. (Your IR experience might help find a co-pilot job in the off-shore industry)

[GS-Alpha]

You do indeed get 5 hours off the PPL(H) requirement, although strangely, you still have to do the full 5 hours of helicopter instrument flight. You also only need to do two of the theory exams because you already have them with your fixed wing qualification: load and balance (which is just as easy as fixed wing, just that you have left and right CofG to consider too), and Helicopter performance and principles of flight (I just read a book and then took the test, but then I have a Physics degree so that probably helped).

You also begin the CPL(H) course with just 105 heli hours rather than the usual 155 hours, although the CPL(H) course itself is still 30 hours regardless of the fixed wing licence. I would imagine that you would only need to do a few of the CPL(H) theory tests, as per the PPL(H), but I have not looked this up so do not know for sure.

I personally think you will be better off sticking with fixed wing and using some of your earnings to pay for helicopter hire for fun. I considered swapping careers and going the rotary route but it really is not worth it. In my opinion, you do well to get through the system and into gainful employment once these days - to give that up and then try again with helicopters is pushing your luck.

[lotuslash]

GS Alpha, Thank You very much for all Your information. It helped me. Do You recommend any Flight School?

Many thanks to all of You.... even the funny ones

Lotuslash

[Clintonb]

i was wondering what jobs are out there im trying to decide which direction to go fixed wing or chopper. a lot of people say theres more jobs in the chopper industry one because its hard to do the course so a lot of people do fixed wing so theres more fixed wing pilots than chopper pilots and plus you dont need a run way.
so what other jobs are out there?? charter, medical, coast guard.......

i love flying in both i just cant make up my mind would love to get both license fixed and chopper, few people have said first do fixed get your hours work for a regional company or corporate for few years and later on once i got hours and time plus a bit more money then get my chopper license. would like to get my CPL(H) so on my days off i get to work for a charter company and get to still fly on my days off on someone else's dime.

so should i go that route?
Thanks for your time.

[helimutt]

I suggest you search through this forum as that sort of thing has been asked many times.

[Gordy]

Just look at some of the other threads here, but don't believe a word they are saying about no jobs. They are the ones who found it too hard to not land on runways and stuff like that... :)

Go get your helicopter commercial, tons of jobs out there. As for working on your days off---tis what we all do, and right now, due to the severe lack of pilots, you can just about name your price for a days work and [ay off those loans early.

Just make sure you wear the right boots, epaulets and gloves or else you will be the laughing stock of where you moonlight. :cool:

[handbag]

Gordy forgot to mention that he is talking about experienced fire fighting pilots. Getting there is going to be a similar path to like working for a regional airline for 5 years at 50c an hour.

[Gordy]

handbag:

Gordy forgot to mention that he is talking about experienced fire fighting pilots.

Kind of---it was my feeble attempt at humor...someone really needs to invent a "sarcastic" font...:)

Having said that, you are correct, if you have in excess of 5,000 hours, of which 1,000 are mountain time (above 6k), and 1,000 is longline, Bell 206, 212 and/or Huey time, and at least one season of fire work...I could probably find you a job. Especially for next season...

[cambioso]

Sorry for the "bone" question, but please can somebody advise if there are any "credits" for hours or exams for an ATPL(A) (10,500TT) to get an UK PPL(H)?
What are the minimum flight hours to get a PPL(H)?
Many thanks,
Jez

[ka26]

Hello,

Credits:
39 hours of flight (not more 45 hours of flight)

you have to make 4 examinations (4 objects theory) (not more 9)

Good Luck!!!

[Whirlygig]

Technically the credit is a maximum of 6 hours meaning a minimum of 39 hours for PPL(H).

Cheers

Whirls

[Stuck_in_an_ATR]

Yep, 6 hrs for PPL(H) and 50 hrs for CPL(H). So for the latter, with your 10500hrs of FW time, you need as much training as an integrated ab-initio student, who hasn't seen any aircraft up close before. Don't you just love the JAA?

[Whirlygig]

There have been a few recent rotary accidents where experienced fixed wing pilots have reverted to a fixed wing response to a helicopter emergency.

Cheers

Whirls

[cambioso]

6 hours then- better than nothing, and I'm sure it will take me the full 39 hours (anyway) to get the hang of the confounded beast!?
Thanks very much for the prompt responses guys!
Final (I mean it!) question............Will I have to take all of the written exams as well?
Thanks,
Jez

[Klimax]

Gentlemen,

Have: JAR-FCL ATPL(A)/IR-ME etc
Want: JAR-FCL ATPL(H) or JAR-FCL CPL(H)/IR etc.

Anyone up for a quick, short list of the conversion requirements
AND what it would cost.

Thanks Gentlemen. :ok:

[MrMask]

test here!

http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/175/srg_fcl_pilotlicence_helicopters_doc_90.pdf

[dragqueen120]

Hi,

Here what I got:
ATPL Theory H and A
JAA CPL A. and about to get an FAA CPL A
PPL H and only 55hrs

Heres what I want and I was told it might be worth doing the FAA CPL H first:

JAA CPL H

any advice

[G-HALE]

FAA CPL(H) : You need minimum 150 hours total time to get it issued of which 100 hours P1 of which minimum 35 P1 in Rotorcraft and the other 65 can be on Aeroplanes. The course is 25 hours.

JAA CPL(H) : In your case minimum 105 Hours on Helicopters to start the 30 hour course (less if you have FAA CPL H !! at schools discretion). To get the JAA CPL(H) issued you will need minimum 135 hours total time on Rotorcraft.

Check out this link : Add On Ratings (http://cloud9helicopters.com/cloud9/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=50&Itemid=85)

[gravity9]

I have a PPL on fixed wing aircraft but am looking at my options at becoming a helicopter pilot.

I was looking for a few good school to study for my CHPL. Any recommendations would be welcome. I looked at Orlando Flight training academy but pprunes is overun with negative reviews about them. Can someone suggest a good school ?

Another thing id like to ask from the experienced pilots there, how is the job oppurtnity for a newbie who does CPL and IR.

Any recommendations on what I should do after the training.. like additional ratings or a type rating

[gravity9]

thanks for the reply...

the market for aicraft pilots is really bad here, thats why i was looking to change to rotors.. ill look up ocean helicopters

been hearing a lot of negative things about OFT in FL, they seem to be cheap and have a 1000hour instructor job if i do it there but everyone seems to hate the place

[curyfury]

Obviously, I posted here so the response will be helicopters, but I'd like to know what others have experienced after making this decision. Here is my dilemma...

I work in law enforcement and would love to fly the departments A-star. Unfortunately, there are no sponsorships of any sort, so the cost of training is all on me. I estimate getting a PPL, commercial, and instrument will cost $60K-$80K, but will only total 150hrs or so. I need 300hrs just to apply and at $300/hr, thats another $45K I'll need for 150 more hrs of flight time. I can pay for the PPL now, but the rest will need to be paid for by the state lottery, which I have yet to win.

I guess my main question is, is it worth getting a PPL if I can't afford to immediately go to commercial training? At $300/hr, I don't think there is such a thing as recreational flying when it comes to helicopters.

On the other hand, we have airplanes too. And even if I can only afford a fixed wing PPL, at least an airplane only costs $120/hr so recreational flying is a possibility.

For you non-military trained professional pilots.........how did you do it?

[Pandalet]

If all you want to do is get airbourne, and you don't care in what, then go with whatever is cheapest / easiest. If you want to fly helicopters, then fly helicopters.

In general, people either go through the military or save their pennies. Having a decent first career helps with the bankroll, obviously. There certainly is recreational flying (at considerably more than $300/hour, too), and not everyone who flys for fun is minted; you decide what activities are important to you and arrange your budget accordingly. There are plenty of pilots who can (just) afford to fly an hour a month, and that's what they do, even if it means they don't get to eat out once a week (or whatever).

[Clintonb]

Hi there

Wondering if anyone can help me out here. i'm a South African and European citizen i've done research on fixed wing and rotary training i've read and been told in South Africa and in Europe people do their fixed wing up to commercial and then with the hours they have they go on to rotary commercial minimising all the hours they have to do making it cheaper. fixed wing is a lot cheaper than rotary in these countries rotary being usually 20-30k more than fixed wing.

i've looked into the states to get an FAA to get my foot in the door plus its cheaper and it seems like fixed wing and rotary training are similar prices i've called few schools in the states to see wether its the same as other parts of the world doing your fixed wing building hours and then converting to helicopters they say yes you can do it also in the states but they say why spend double the money on getting both licenses i tried to explain in depth what i was trying to get but it didn't seem like they understood.

So if i do fixed wing training in the states up to CPL leaving with 200-250hr then go do my CPL rotary training will i have to start from scratch again with PPL or will i just need to do 30-40 hrs with an instructor and do few exams as fixed wing emergency procedures are different to rotary????

Hope i've been clear and specific enough. Any info to shed some light would be much appreciated.
Thanks for all your time. Safe flying

[Whirlygig]

Clintonb, you've been researching aviation training now for over a year.

Do you have the right to work in those countries which accept the FAA licences? If not, you need to do your sums carefully as to whether it is cheaper to do FAA licences first. You might be better off getting South African licences as it is still reasonably cheap there.

Secondly, it is a MYTH that helicopter pilots all did fixed wing first and that it is cheaper. If you only actually want to fly helicopters, then train for helicopters. Your thread from last summer should have helped to answer that one.

But ultimately, you need to decide what you want and aim for it. If you aim for nothing, you will achieve it with tremedous accuracy.

Cheers

Whirls

[Clintonb]

Yea i know i been looking for ever but trying to get all my research done and dry my resources so i know i have covered everything.

In South Africa doing your helicopter training is a lot more expensive than doing your fixed wing and I'm sure anybody that is south african or lives and training in south africa can even agree with me on that. Thats why since Ive been here in south africa for the past 10 days I've heard that they do their fixed wing first and then go over to helicopters and finish the final 100 hrs making it cheaper than doing the full 200 hrs in a helicopter. but looking more into helicopter training now in the states it seems as helicopter and fixed wing are similar prices.

but when searching the sites i dont see any night rating for helicopters or included in the programs so is night rating even regarded in the training in the states for helicopters?

another thing I've been told by calling helicopter schools is that once you got your commercial license its best to get a turbine rating in like a jetranger which boosts your chances of getting a job and that even though times are hard there is a shortage of helicopter pilots around the world because its harder to get than fixed wing.

Thanks for the time look forward to your answers.
Safe flying

[Gordy]

is night rating even regarded in the training in the states for helicopters?

Yes you train at night, but there is no such thing as a night rating---it is simply not required because you are allowed to fly at night as long as you meet recency of experience requirements.

another thing I've been told by calling helicopter schools is that once you got your commercial license its best to get a turbine rating in like a jetranger which boosts your chances of getting a job

Nope. They just want your money. There are companies out there that will train you in a turbine aircraft when you have the enough hours to meet their requirements.

there is a shortage of helicopter pilots

This is a joke right? There are lots of helicopter pilots. There IS however a shortage of helicopter pilots with "certain skill sets". Here in the US, it is getting more difficult to find quality utility pilots. But as Whirls pointed out----unless you are qualified to work here, you will not get a utility job here.

[Pandalet]

Also, I'm not sure who you've been talking to in SA, but neither of the helicopter schools I'm in contact with there recommend people do fixed wing before helicopter. You've probably found a school who do both, who would like to boost their income a bit.

When I looked at this, it didn't work out much cheaper to do fixed wing qualifications if what you really wanted was rotary. There was a very slight difference, but it relied on doing everything in absolute minimum hours, and added a lot of time before you were actually qualified. Most rotary employers don't seem to care about fixed wing hours (unless you have many thousands of them, and even then, it's not a major factor), so unless you have a specific use or desire for the fixed wing tickets, beyond as a stepping stone to rotary, it just doesn't make a lot of sense. YMMV, of course.

[Clintonb]

Thanks for your quick replies.

Gordy thank you for the info just quickly maybe you can answer this or someone on the forum might know this on the FAA documentation will it state that you did a night rating or something like that just incase you decided to go fly somewhere else like EU, Australia anywhere and need to convert your license whether they would question if you did your night rating.

Another thing i keep hearing this license is a license it doesn't matter where you did your training and hours are hours whether you do them in timbuktoo, africa or south america its states in your log book you have so many hours and thats that. true or false

Understand if we talking fixed and rotor for license its 2 different licenses but is that the same for hours then???

thanks again for your answers

[Whirlygig]

Clintonb, I'm not sure whether the full implications of what other people are telling you are sinking in or whether you are just selecting the replies you like but .....

Your log book will show the times at which you were flying and then it will be fairly obvious whether you flew at night. Secondly, an FAA CPL(H) will count for squat in Europa (and likely SA) so you would need to convert to a JAA licence.

Another thing i keep hearing this license is a license it doesn't matter where you did your trainingI have no idea where you keep hearing this because it certainly isn't on Pprune. Unless you have the right to live and work in the US, an FAA licence is not much use to you. You will have to convert your licence to whichever country's regime you are entitled to live and work.

All your questions have been answered time and time again; please read all the replies and not just the ones you like.

There is no easy way into this business and if you think aeroplanes are expensive, try helicopters. Cost seems to be a major factor in your decisions so I suggest you start working out some budgets.

Cheers

Whirls

[Clintonb]

i hold both British and German passports and south african which i never use. so I'm guessing either british or german will allow me in the states to work. but firstly you have to find the job in the states to go to the Us embassy to see whether your back ground check and the interview goes well and they approve. if anyone that is a none US citizen and working in the states wanna give their 2 cents???????

[Whirlygig]

so I'm guessing either british or german will allow me in the states to work. No it won't - that's what everyone has been trying to tell you. You cannot just pitch up at immigration of any country and say, "I want to work here". It doesn't work like that.

Why would any USA helicopter operator employ you over and above one of their own citizens?

Cheers

Whirls

[Clintonb]

Hey Whirlygig

So found out that i do have the right to work in the US i called up the USCIS i have the right to work in the US giving that i have no drug convictions, been in any kind of terrorist acts or any other criminal convictions that might be on record even a DUI will set me back. Anyone in the world has the right to work anywhere in the world depending on what your citizenship is as to the procedures needed to get a visa and whether you have any criminal record.

Any America who doesn't have a criminal record can work say in Dubai for Emirates or in asia etc and same goes for Europeans, Australians etc unless you don't have any criminal record understand that FAA is American issued license but you don't need to be an American to hold that type of license understand if you want to work in the US then you need a work permit but there are other places in the world that take on FAA such as Asia so if an American or European holds a FAA license, the license doesn't determine whether they can fly and work in asia but of course whether you can get a work permit but if you can visit the country without a problem then i don't see why there would be a problem to get a work permit unless again i stipulate it will be hard to get a permit if you have a criminal record.

I know i have been doing research for the past year but I'm just trying to use all the resources i have and know myself that i have covered all areas so once i have made my choice in flight school etc i know that i haven't left any stone unturned.
yes i know helicopters are hell of a lot expensive than fixed wing i never said helicopters where cheap or cheaper than fixed wing so don't know where you read that i just know doing your helicopter is a lot more cheaper in the states than in south africa try doing your helicopter license all the way up to CPL in south africa for no less than R750 000 = $109 000 and thats not even including housing or food or books.

Im just going by what I've heard as there never seems to be a right answer but I'm sure there is no wrong answer either. but I've been told that to do your helicopter license it is cheaper to do your training in fixed wing and get the hours and then convert over to helicopter which will minimize your hours needed to do in helicopter and you leave with 2 types of license. yes i understand you will have minimal hours in both but i just wanted to find out how is it in the states with that, as i have researched in Europe, Australia,South Africa and Asia about it. plus there are schools in the states that do helicopter add ons so there is that option but yet again i know that you have to choose one or the other unless you win the lottery and can build your hours in both licenses to have enough to be hirable in fixed or helicopter.

But thanks again for your help you have given me some useful information and thanks to everyone else for giving their 2 cents really appreciate it.